View Full Version : Questions About Steel...
TheViking
12-10-2004, 12:33
I have found some folding knives that I like. But I'll only buy one of them.
The question is now, which steel I shall choose. It must be stainless.
How is the following steels?
440
420
AUS-6
I'm especially thinking about the Gerber Gator here which is in 400 series steel. How is this knife?
V, do you mind if I add another question to your thread...?
What exactly does a difference in steel mean? I hear all these terms being spoken but don't understand them.
:roll:
TheViking
12-10-2004, 12:41
Kim, the differences in steel is hardness, edge retention, corrosion resistance etc. The more chromium in a blade, the more corrosion resistance for example. :wink:
C_Claycomb
12-10-2004, 12:52
:yikes:
Can of worms coming up! :o):
First TheVikings question.
http://ajh-knives.com/material.html
This is an excellent source for info. There is a metals section which in turn brings up a page with lots of data on the different alloys. Chemical composition, and so on.
440 comes in 3 flavours, the most stain resistant is 440A, the one with the best edge holding is 440C. If they only say it is 440 then it will be a lower grade since using 440C is a good selling point.
To quote the above site;
AUS-6, AUS-8, AUS-10
Also designated 6A, 8A, 10A - are Japanese stainless steels, roughly comparable to 440A (AUS-6, .65% carbon) and 440B (AUS-8, .75% carbon) and 440C (AUS-10, 1.1% carbon).
AUS-6 is used by Al Mar. Cold Steel's use of AUS-8 has made it pretty popular, as heat treated by CS it won't hold an edge like ATS-34, but is a bit softer and may be a bit tougher.
AUS-10 has roughly the same carbon content as 440C but with slightly less chromium, so it should be a bit less rust resistant but perhaps a bit tougher than 440C. All 3 steels have some vanadium added (which the 440 series lacks), which will improve wear resistance. No Tungsten.
Cold Steel use 420 and make claim that their heat treat turns it into good blade steel. This is often questioned. Which is better? If I had to go for one, and there wasn't anything in the handle design or other features, I would probably get the AUS-6. I just feel that it ties down what the steel is better than the others, it has a tighter control on carbon content and the vanadium which is nice to have.
Tantalus
12-10-2004, 12:55
ooooh , what a minefield of modern day alchemy and personal preferences
there may be no easy answer to this one :shock:
Tant
Paganwolf
12-10-2004, 12:56
Check this link out TViking http://www.bkcg.co.uk/guide/steels.html lots of your Q's answers on here matie. :biggthump
C_Claycomb
12-10-2004, 13:01
Hi Kim,
If you have a look at that site you will see that there is a HUGE range of steels that can be made into knife blades, they don't even have everything on there, but they are close.
How steel is worked, heat treated and finished makes a difference to its strenth, toughness, edge holding and corrosion properties every bit as much as its chemical composition does. Great technique can out weigh less than great starting material, conversely, poor manufacturing technique can turn great steel into trash knives.
Sorry TV. I haven't used the Gator, but it is pretty popular in the US, has been made for years and sold in Walmarts across the land. I am not sure how it would do for bushcraft, think it was made with hunters in mind, hunters who wouldn't really be all that good at looking after their knives :roll:
C_Claycomb
12-10-2004, 13:17
I would take anything that BKCG say with a big pinch of salt!!! Their steel descriptions are off the mark by a bit, very subjective and full of most missleading info!!! :banghead: I would like to say :tapedshut:.
There is no such thing as "Surgical Grade Steel" Anyone who tells you otherwise is fibbing, at least, it is no guide to steel quality, some totally useless blade steels are used in surgical tools because of other properties.
To make claim that 440A and D2 are in the same class is :rolmao: ! Totally different steels, D2 is significantly better than 440A and when treated right, better than 440C too. 440A is not a hard steel, it is cheap and highly stain resistant.
Carbon steel can be treated to be hugely tougher than nearly any stainless, only the particle metalurgy steels start to come close.
Zillions of people have been shaved with carbon steel for years, stainless is not sharper as BKCG table would suggest.
Damasus today is not as good as the super clean pure carbon and stainless steels and the stainless stuff is no better than the constituent materials that it is made from.
I could go on, but it would be pointless.
TheViking
12-10-2004, 13:35
Many many thanks Chris! :D :biggthump Some good links there.
Howcome the steel in SAK's never mentioned? It's pretty good, IMO. I think it's called 1'st grade A quality steel or something like that. :roll:
bushwacker bob
12-10-2004, 13:45
Many many thanks Chris! :D :biggthump Some good links there.
Howcome the steel in SAK's never mentioned? It's pretty good, IMO. I think it's called 1'st grade A quality steel or something like that. :roll:
The only problem with SAK steel is that its very soft, I am on my 3rd classic in the last 10 years! the others were retired when the blade was reduced to 3mm wide :o): there again it is used several times a day.
TheViking
12-10-2004, 13:51
The only problem with SAK steel is that its very soft, I am on my 3rd classic in the last 10 years! the others were retired when the blade was reduced to 3mm wide :o): there again it is used several times a day.
I have just sharpened my SAK's yesterday and they are razor to try some really soft steel try a Glock survival knife from Austria. We use it up here in the army and it's c**p! Impossible to sharpen, but really strong. I use it as a prybar and abusement knife and it can break very hard things with the tip, without getting dull. :shock:
SAK steel
It's a steel that has a lot of valadium (spelling) in it. I think it might be vasco I like it, joy t sharpen keeps an edge well enough and doesn't rust too badly. Not as good in the rust stakes as 440C from what I've done with it. Victorinox like other makes I guess source their steel from where they can get a good price for the amount. This means that most of it comes from a certain city not too far away. Still seems silly to me that the knives make a trip from sheffield to where they are made and then lots of the knives come back to the UK.
PS information obtained from a local cutlers
Keith_Beef
12-10-2004, 16:56
The only problem with SAK steel is that its very soft, I am on my 3rd classic in the last 10 years! the others were retired when the blade was reduced to 3mm wide :o): there again it is used several times a day.
What happens to your "retired" SAK's, Bob?
Keith.
I would take anything that BKCG say with a big pinch of salt!!! Their steel descriptions are off the mark by a bit, very subjective and full of most missleading info!!! :banghead: I would like to say :tapedshut:.
There is no such thing as "Surgical Grade Steel" Anyone who tells you otherwise is fibbing, at least, it is no guide to steel quality, some totally useless blade steels are used in surgical tools because of other properties.
To make claim that 440A and D2 are in the same class is :rolmao: ! Totally different steels, D2 is significantly better than 440A and when treated right, better than 440C too. 440A is not a hard steel, it is cheap and highly stain resistant.
Carbon steel can be treated to be hugely tougher than nearly any stainless, only the particle metalurgy steels start to come close.
Zillions of people have been shaved with carbon steel for years, stainless is not sharper as BKCG table would suggest.
Damasus today is not as good as the super clean pure carbon and stainless steels and the stainless stuff is no better than the constituent materials that it is made from.
I could go on, but it would be pointless.
^^ what he said^^ :biggthump
TheViking
12-10-2004, 18:14
Well about "SAK steel": i lost my Huntsman once and my dad found it a couple months later in a mudpool. I doin't know the exact time it had been laying there, but it was definately more than 40-50 days. :shock: And it didn't have a single rust spot on it. :wink: Don't be afraid to let it lay in water for several days! :D But I tell yoiu: there was A LOT of cleaning afterwards. Every hinch was full of dirt and mud. It was a nightmare! :wink: But I got it cleaned. :biggthump
my swiss tool rusted on the lock release bit and the file, I guess it was down to the none miror polish, though I thin there were odd bits else where as well, in the end Ijust sprayed it with a can of lube to clean it out
I have used the Gerber Gator Serrator. I found it a very good knife, the lock was quite secure, it could be sharpened up like a razor, the only thing that I would say is that the steel isn't the best as a result a convexing of the edge is necessary DO NOT try and flat grind one if you get one, the edge would be just too fragile to retain an edge for any period of time.
On the upside if you used a Starkie on it, it would come up in seconds, I had a similair problem With a Gerber LST, so I would say that it was not down to just the one knife, more that it is inherent in the line / range that they are currently producing.
Shame Gerber were as there name says "LEGENDARY", unfortunately if there knives keep going this way they will be legendary for quite another reason.
If you go for a gerber like this go for the LST and get it from ODS, I think he has them for about £8 at the moment :wave:
for that sort of money I'd look out for a Nieto knife. they come up on the german ebay site at good prices
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v211/arlongden666/cutlery%20photos/DSCN0666.jpg this is mine they are 440C steel and seem rather nice
bushwacker bob
12-10-2004, 23:32
What happens to your "retired" SAK's, Bob?
Keith.
The 1st one was replaced by the importers as the 'springy' bit broke
the 2nd was relegated to the Range rover keyring as it still is serviceable at a push,my current one is a 'jellylight' and lives on my belt.I've replaced the pen refil 3 times,the scissor spring once and the red LED light just keeps going.I dont really like SAKs,but I dont think I could function if I didn't have it.
Also lots of people I know seem to rely on me having it as I seem to be lending it to colleagues,friends and family on a very regular basis. :shock:
Keith_Beef
13-10-2004, 09:58
The 1st one was replaced by the importers as the 'springy' bit broke
the 2nd was relegated to the Range rover keyring as it still is serviceable at a push,my current one is a 'jellylight' and lives on my belt.I've replaced the pen refil 3 times,the scissor spring once and the red LED light just keeps going.I dont really like SAKs,but I dont think I could function if I didn't have it.
Also lots of people I know seem to rely on me having it as I seem to be lending it to colleagues,friends and family on a very regular basis. :shock:
I asked, because I'm going to start making a few blades out of D2 and ATS34, and I reckon that the easiest way to start is to copy the tang/heel/kick geometry of worn out or broken blades. If ever you decide you want a replacement blade, drop me a line. But don't be in a hurry, because the steel I have right now is too thick (at 3mm and 4.5mm); I'll have to re-order.
There was also a thread about replacing the red scales with wood. Very nice.
Keith.
bushwacker bob
13-10-2004, 16:04
I asked, because I'm going to start making a few blades out of D2 and ATS34, and I reckon that the easiest way to start is to copy the tang/heel/kick geometry of worn out or broken blades. If ever you decide you want a replacement blade, drop me a line. But don't be in a hurry, because the steel I have right now is too thick (at 3mm and 4.5mm); I'll have to re-order.
There was also a thread about replacing the red scales with wood. Very nice.
Keith.
Wow,thats worth bearing in mind.Thanks Keith. Wood instead of plastic sounds great and decent steel on a SAK :shock: They must be a bu***r to take apart and put back together tho'
Keith_Beef
13-10-2004, 22:38
Wow,thats worth bearing in mind.Thanks Keith. Wood instead of plastic sounds great and decent steel on a SAK :shock: They must be a bu***r to take apart and put back together tho'
Well, the scales are apparently not so difficult to get off a Victorinox, but once taken off cannot be put back on without glue. replacement scales are relatively inexpensive, and I think are a simple push fit. Can't say about Wengers. This is not something I've tried, but there are threads on here or on BB about it.
For example, here (http://www.bushcraftuk.net/community/showthread.php?t=216&page=3&pp=15&highlight=SAK+scales).
Multiblades can be difficult to reassemble. Of course, the more blade and springs there are, the more fiddly it is to get everything back together.
I did one for my father in law. It had been in his tool basket for about thirty years, and was well rusted.
The scales, some sort of resin impregnated card, had swelled, warped and buckled.
I took it apart. Easy. The scales more or less crumbled, then I drilled out the rivets, cleaned up all the parts (two blades, saw, can opener, corkscrew, awl, whatever, plus springs and scales), retempered and reground the main blade, and reassembled. I drilled out the main pivot to 2.8mm and used a piece of drill rod (probably M2 steel) for a pin.
Cow horn scales glued on with epoxy to finish it. And a nice little black leather pouch with a tagua nut toggle.
I need to get it back off him to check the scales, maybe rub them down again and take some photos.
Keith.
Andy, there is a very good thread here (http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1190) that has opinions and qualities of steel types, I found it quite informative when I was looking for a new knife and deciding what I required in the steel department :wink:
Andy, there is a very good thread here (http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1190) that has opinions and qualities of steel types, I found it quite informative when I was looking for a new knife and deciding what I required in the steel department :wink:
That was one of the first threads (if not the first) I read on BB
TheViking
15-10-2004, 12:08
Andy, there is a very good thread here (http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1190) that has opinions and qualities of steel types, I found it quite informative when I was looking for a new knife and deciding what I required in the steel department :wink:
Thanks leon! And the General of course! :D
The General
18-10-2004, 22:12
Notice how G2 gets a 4 and Gin-1 gets a 7? SAME FLIPPIN STEEL!!!
What a load of ill informed rubbish that BKCG steel chart is... :roll:
I've never come across it. There was one steel chart that didn't include some elements that my brother has to pay very careful attention to. (he's a production engineer)
Even supposedly good steels aren't worth squat if they have a poor heat treat.
As for D2 being better than 440C, I think that's a debatable issue. :sword:
440, 420, and AUS-6 are ok knife steels if properly heat treated but it also depends on the application. I think there are a lot better steels out there. You can get a Benchmade Griptilian in 440C for instance, and I would take AUS-8A over AUS-6 any day but that's not to say that AUS-6 won't do a lot of cutting for you and last you for years. A lot of CRKT knives are made of AUS-6.
I own a gerbor gator and it's not my favorite knife but over the years I've heard people rave again and again about their gerber gator so there's a lot of folks out there with real world experience with gerber gators that is pretty positive. Pricewise, it's probably a good deal. Also pricewise, I think CRKT has some of the best deals out there in folders. You might also consider the Dozier/Kabar line of folders. Very nice and lightweight with D2 steel.
My number one recommendation for an outdoor folder at a moderate price, though, is a Benchmade Griptilian or mini Griptilian. Well worth the xtra money over the cheaper folders, imo.
There are several Spyderco knives available in VG10 steel and at very reasonable prices. They are not a lot more than the Gerbers, but I would say a better investment.
I love S30V, its my favorite stainless steel.
My number one recommendation for an outdoor folder at a moderate price, though, is a Benchmade Griptilian or mini Griptilian. Well worth the xtra money over the cheaper folders, imo.
Couldn't agree more. Good pedigree, decent steel (440C), seems to be a good heat treat, nice grind, square/sharp spine, fantastic AXIS lock, lightweight, comfortable, no blade play, adjustable and stripable, ...and relatively cheap.
I love S30V, its my favorite stainless steel.
Ahhh, everyones favourite, S30v - made in volcano's and heat treated by Dragons. Yeah, it is a good steel, probably better than most. But it isn't magic. :wink:
Ahhh, everyones favourite, S30v - made in volcano's and heat treated by Dragons. Yeah, it is a good steel, probably better than most. But it isn't magic. :wink:
I dunno. I've fallen under it's spell. :shock: :shock: :o\\: :smashfrea
I dunno. I've fallen under it's spell. :shock: :shock: :o\\: :smashfrea
Says the man with the Bechmade Activator in S30v with G10 scales :wink: although I am surprised with the amount of cutlery that you have Hoodoo it would be difficult to fall under the spell of one particular steel :-).
I've got 5--possibly 6--knives in S30V now. I dunno. I'm starting to lose track... It's a spell I tell ya... :yikes: