View Full Version : lymes disease
gypsyjanet
10-08-2008, 16:47
I am aware that ticks can carry Lymes disease but, has any info been put out in the public domain as to which areas around britain have these infected blood suckers.?
There was a simmilar post, think is more for higher concentrations of ticks as opposed to ones that are infected....
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31485&highlight=tick
http://www.masta-travel-health.com/tickalert/
BorderReiver
10-08-2008, 20:24
I think you would be safest assuming that anywhere you are is probably as risky as anywhere else and protect yourself accordingly.:)
pothunter
11-08-2008, 10:25
Someone posted this link last summer useful info:
http://www.lymediseaseaction.org.uk/ticks.htm
Pothunter.
spiritofold
28-08-2008, 15:01
One of my little girls had lyme disease after a tick bit her arm. Classic symptoms showed up a few days after i had removed it. Antibiotics cured it after about a 12 days. The bluebell
woods round here are crawling with ticks, mainly in the leafmould. Eating garlic stops them biting you :)
It was thought that I had it many years ago, after I was bitten by a tick that I found on my gut the day after I had been walking. Got the bugger by the head and flushed him down the sink.
Anywho, turned out I had glandular fever. Just as harsh as Lymes disease I recon. I spent about a month sleeping about 18 hours a day. Other side effects including occaisional puking and an unbeleivable saw throat.
Pantalaimon
28-08-2008, 18:38
Damn ticks, one day in the woods means 10 ticks for me. For some reason I attract them.
Never had problems with it, but one tick had been for 3 days in my body, but didn't sucked himself full. That was in April, and I still have a red spot there. I've been to a doctor for that 2 times, but it isn't an erythema migrans.
Another time, I thought I had a tick on my back, which I (and someone else) couldn't take out. So I also went to (another) doctor. She examined it a bit, DID ALCOHOL ON IT, and after that, she said it wasn't a tick but a small wound. What if it was?
I don't have much confidence in my GP's anymore. I think they just watch for an erythema migrans if someone with a tickbite comes, and don't look for other things.
Ticks can bring other diseases with them, although lymedisease is the most common in West Europe. But with removal within one day, the chances of infection are very, very small.
Nonimouse
22-09-2008, 15:54
Anywhere you get Deer - so all over the UK pretty much
I always carry Antibiotics 'just in case'
Garlic is good but not a total guarantee, Overdose on B6 is better
Getting more and more common as time goes on - very bad on the Blackdowns and Exmoor.
Wyles Disease is also on the up
Mesquite
22-09-2008, 16:54
I always carry Antibiotics 'just in case'
What antibiotics do you carry and how did you get them? I had always thought antibiotics were prescription only in the UK.
Chainsaw
22-09-2008, 16:58
Kids picked up 3 teeny weeny ones, like barely discernable as ticks, at Loch Lomond a couple of weekends ago. Came off ok but watching them like a hawk! Deer were present on the island but as Nonimouse says, pretty much anywhere.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3244/2865852804_97231aa500.jpg
It's habitual now, kids are educated to always check before bed even if it's just a wee bimble in the local woodland, bit paranoid but.... It's funny, midges don't like me too much but ticks do, same with the kids. Mrs C is complete opposite. :dunno:
Cheers,
Alan
Nonimouse
22-09-2008, 17:16
Pre feed a Deer tick is only the size of a seseme seed
NB - Lymes Disease has the potential to re-occur once a person is infected AND the bites can re-appear as a bad infection years after the original bite
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/diseases/facts/lymedisease.htm is the most readable explaination on the net and one we use for H&S at work
Most decent family doctors will pescribe you with a broad spectrum antibiotic if you explain to them that you are off away for a while. When I worked abroad I would always nip into the docs a week or so before I was due off and pick up pescriptions for basic meds. Just be aware that antibiotics do go off!
Whilst you are at it check out the issues with all the other nasties in the UK countryside - from Wild Parsnip to Brown Tailed Moths
Not trying to cause an arguement but.........I know my Doctors will not pre prescribe antibiotics.
I have a horrendous re-action to clegs and when bitten it gets infected very quickly. I have a permanent prescription for anti histamines but if I need an antibiotic it's a surgery visit everytime.
I work away from home a lot (where clegs abound :( ) and it still applies; find the local surgery or outpatients and ask, they usually access my records and take it from there.
I can understand if one were working abroad, but in the UK ? :confused: I thought we were supposed to be trying to reduce the frequency of anti biotic usage in the hopes that they would be effective when really necessary ? and that they were strain specific too.
cheers,
Toddy
Nonimouse is right that tick prevalence is linked to deer, and as roe deer can be found almost throughout the UK, ticks are pretty ubiquitous. Of course,not all are infected with the organism that causes Lyme.
There was one trial on a bunch of Swedish conscripts that found garlic (taken orally) reduced the number of tick bites - I think by about a quarter, if I recall correctly. So better than nothing, but nowhere near as effective as chemical repellents applied to the skin/clothing.
I'm not aware of any evidence that vitamin B6 can reduce tick bites, and B6 in overdosage most definitely can give you a nasty peripheral neuropathy. The strength of 'over the counter' B6 tablets was reduced because people were getting toxicity from taking excessive doses.
Nonimouse
22-09-2008, 18:43
I was reading about that recently Doc. I mentioned the B6 think as it was very popular when I was in the forces - something to do with the body getting rid of the surplus B6 through sweat and the sweat being noxious to biting bugs. I am one of those lucky people whose pheramones are not conducive to a good resteraunt atmosphere for your average bug so it's word of mouth on that one - mayhap striking it from the book would be good? What say you Doc
Citronella works well but it's such dodgy stuff if applied wrong - the oil is created by steam distillation of the grass of Cymbopogon winterianus for those that are interested.
Pescription of antibiotics would be down to the individual Doc. My Doc knows that I have a reasonable working knowledge as I taught him 'remote area first aid' and 'vehicle dependant life support' when he was in the TA. The regions I used to work in are somewhat out of the way and reliable medical support was rare - especially when it came to things like infection and trauma (and dental infections)
As for Deer - we have higher numbers now than over the last 400 years. Ticks are spreading and are now occuring in Sikka, Muntjac, Red and Fallow. I have never seen Muntjac so common as now - in the 1700 hectares I manage they are a common sight - something that should amaze any one who knows of thier hiding skills. Culling on a big scale is what is needed
Nonimouse is right that tick prevalence is linked to deer, and as roe deer can be found almost throughout the UK, ticks are pretty ubiquitous. Of course,not all are infected with the organism that causes Lyme.
There was one trial on a bunch of Swedish conscripts that found garlic (taken orally) reduced the number of tick bites - I think by about a quarter, if I recall correctly. So better than nothing, but nowhere near as effective as chemical repellents applied to the skin/clothing.
I'm not aware of any evidence that vitamin B6 can reduce tick bites, and B6 in overdosage most definitely can give you a nasty peripheral neuropathy. The strength of 'over the counter' B6 tablets was reduced because people were getting toxicity from taking excessive doses.
As a doc from the wilder side of hadrians wall, is there any way of fining out how many cases of lymes disease happen in the uk. How many cases does an average scottish GP see for instance? Because I am one these that happily skips through the heather with the idea that I far more likely to break a leg or get struck by lightening while out than get lymes disease . I am wrong to be so laid back (I know what the rash and other symptoms look like).
topical Yarrow has been tested as an insect repellent by the us army with a positive result. i will hunt out the article.
I wouldn't stop anyone using vit B6 to try and prevent tick bites, but I think its important to knnow there is no hard evidence to back it up.
Deer populations sure are on the up; as far as I know all the deer species are associated with ticks - I only mentioned roe as they are nearly everywhere in the UK. In my area we have plenty of red deer, but they live in only a few areas in England. We don't (yet) have muntjac. I remember being a bit irritated to have to learn about muntjac for DSC1 when I've never even seen one, let alone raised a rifle to one.
There were about 800 cases of Lyme in England and Wales last year. Not sure about Scotland. I've certainly seen erythema migrans (early cutaneous Lyme) before - maybe half a dozen cases in the past 10 years. Which makes me think the Lyme cases are a bit under-reported. I've also had a few patients with strange neurological symptoms where the neurologists have given iv antibiotics for possible but unproven Lyme.
I think the best plan is not to be paranoid but wear good clothing (long trousers tucked into boots etc), remove any ticks the correct way as soon as you find them, report any rash around a tick bite, and if you do get ill with anything, mention that you spend time living outdoors and could be exposed to ticks. About 60% of patients with proven Lyme do not recall a tick bite.
I can't speak for Docs area of Perthshire but there's loads round mine - Braco. Every time the dogs are out we do a tick check on them and the kids when we get back and I would say 50% of the time something will turn up. Thats why we bought a few of the tick removers from the vet and leave them in the car/house, worth the couple of quid each. Loads of sheep round our way which might be a factor though I'm no expert.
Also seam to prefer labs rather than spaniels - maybe the spaniels just too smelly for the discerning tick.
Bernie Garland
22-09-2008, 22:50
Iv'e had to take off that many tick's when stalking in Scotland i can't remember how many,but 3 4 or more,always, copped them,even before my stalking trips, used to pick them up when rabbiting up there with my lurchers, been going to Scotland now for 15 years,rabbiting and stalking,and they must love me,i think lymes disease is just media hype, as i personally don't know anyone who's contracted it,and i know a few people who have been bitten by ticks in 15 years.
Bernie
Okay so for someone who`s heading into prime tick country, what should they be looking out for and what can they do to prevent them getting hold.
I can understand finding one on your skin but how can you tell after it`s had its feed and fallen off. Will the area be itchy/iritated at all ?
Can they pentrate clothing or is it a case of tucking everything in ? Are they liely to find there way into a hammock without mossie protection ?
What are the early symptoms of lymes disease ?
Bernie Garland
22-09-2008, 23:14
Shewie, as I've said don't let them worry you,they might get on you the size of a pin head,but start getting bigger when sucking your blood,then you notice them,pull them straight off, me and all me mate's are still here,google how many deaths from tick bites,
Bernie
Nonimouse
23-09-2008, 09:26
They like moist sweaty areas the best (on humans). Common sense is the best policy - wearing shorts and vest top and bounding through the heather like a loon is not a good idea.
A visual check when you camp up is worth while - groin; arm pits; butt crease; backs of knees; ankles etc. There is a chain of thought that the disease is only passed on when the tick has been feeding for some time - 12 plus hours.
I tend to think that a lot of cases never get mentioned to the Doc as people think it's something elese and weather it through - like 'flu or a nasty viral infection. In southern Africa there is a tick born disease called 'Tick 'Flu' which makes you feel like hell for three days and then cr*p for another week or so, after which you are deemed as proof from ever catching it again. As to deaths - any bug can kill given the right situation.
Doc, as a point of interest the last survey we did on deer on my patch, we only need Sika to make the full UK tally. We even have recorded sightings of Chinese Water Deer south of Swindon. The Fallow are undoubtedly historical escapees form a number of big estates along the A303 corridor. This last summer I have seen groups (!) of Muntjac in field corners near Exeter. Sadly their management is not down to us - we have to concentrate on Dormice and Water voles at the moment, along with 16 species of bat, four types of lizard, crested newts, smooth snakes, four rare butterflies, Merlin and owl flight paths and various flora!
Out of work I spend some time in a wood on the edge of Exmoor that backs onto the League of Cruel Sports site that Paul MacCartney paid for. The number of deer up there now is horrendous, badly interbred with obvious genetic faults, poor size and crawling with ticks. It's enough to make a man angry.
Shewie, as I've said don't let them worry you,........,google how many deaths from tick bites,
Bernie
Better not. Googling 'death tick bites' gives you 1,460,000 hits, the first four being:
Death plunge of wealthy woman turned paranoid by tick bite
Professor commits suicide after catching dementia from tick bite
Tick bite kills dog in Kent
Paralysed by a tick bite
There is a risk from Lyme, but as Bernie suggests, it is a very small risk and it is essentially a treatable illness. I would ignore the horror stories on google (many of which are harvested from the tabloids) and follow the sensible advice on reliable websites such as the Centre for Disease Control in the US. http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvbid/lyme/ld_prevent.htm
Bernie Garland
23-09-2008, 10:00
Better not. Googling 'death tick bites' gives you 1,460,000 hits, the first four being:
Death plunge of wealthy woman turned paranoid by tick bite
Professor commits suicide after catching dementia from tick bite
Tick bite kills dog in Kent
Paralysed by a tick bite
There is a risk from Lyme, but as Bernie suggests, it is a very small risk and it is essentially a treatable illness. I would ignore the horror stories on google (many of which are harvested from the tabloids) and follow the sensible advice on reliable websites such as the Centre for Disease Control in the US. http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvbid/lyme/ld_prevent.htm
Your right there Doc Don't google it:yikes:
Bernie
I might just have to check out the paranoid wealthy womans demise. Now that sounds like a crazy tale.
I does sound like common sense will prevail although I`m not used to checking my own cracks and crevasses.
BorderReiver
23-09-2008, 10:47
I might just have to check out the paranoid wealthy womans demise. Now that sounds like a crazy tale.
I does sound like common sense will prevail although I`m not used to checking my own cracks and crevasses.
Not so crazy when you think about the Indian lass who killed herself when she thought that the LHC was going to destroy the world.:(
w00dsmoke
23-09-2008, 12:42
I'm really surpised at how many ticks folks are seeing this year, I've not even had one on me yet! Even my dog has only had a couple. I think there must be huge regional differences and I'm not sure what the farmers are using on their sheep to control them but this may have an affect.
My dog takes something that kills the tick after it's first bite, so any I find are usually dead on him.
I only know one person who has had confirmed lymes and the treatment involved daily journeys to his hospital for intravenous antabiotics for several weeks. Yet I know of several people killed by weil's...
To be honest it's probably best as doc say not to worry, take precautions and most of us will be ok. I do use alcohol based hand rub EVERY time I'm out though...:rolleyes:
inthewids
23-09-2008, 19:37
AAARRGH!! I hate ticks! I was camping at the weekend, got home the next day away to go into the shower and found one on my %!*@ i felt like crying!! Then another on my side, the 1st one was reddish with long legs, ive only ever had small black ones, i only started getting them a few years ago, usually get atleast two camping, garlic doesnt put them off! I eat atleast 3 cloves a day. They burrow through clothes right?
AAARRGH!! I hate ticks! I was camping at the weekend, got home the next day away to go into the shower and found one on my %!*@ i felt like crying!! Then another on my side, the 1st one was reddish with long legs, ive only ever had small black ones, i only started getting them a few years ago, usually get atleast two camping, garlic doesnt put them off! I eat atleast 3 cloves a day. They burrow through clothes right?
I don't think they burrow through clothes. Only skin. They DO know how to find holes in your clothing, pockets, ect :(.
In the pre host stage they are even smaller then a sesame seed. They need several hosts to get the the reproduction fase. Each time they drop them selves, grow and wait for the next host.
thewanderer
12-10-2008, 02:04
last i heard the new forest uk had ticks carrying lymes disease scout association put out a warning to anyone camping in that area
As I manage land in Exmoor I know a little about ticks. In April this year I pulled off upwards of 50 ticks, in a few days, from my dog, that's before I started using Advantix on her instead of frontline, now she gets the odd 1 or 2. I'd look down and see 20 odd ticks making a slow creepy march up my trouser legs. Sends you a bit mad after a while. It's not bad now though, as they go to ground after the spring/early summer feeding frenzy. Anyway, here's something I wrote elsewhere which I thought might be helpful...
1) Be vigilant - especially check warm nooks and crannies on you and your animals bodies (your 'grockles' for example) At least twice a day. (yeah right!!)
2) Preventative measures -
2a) humans should wear trousers and tuck them in and make sure cuffs are closed when rummaging in the undergrowth.
2b) animals use a spot on (eg, Advantix for dogs) and maybe a tick collar.
3) Use an O'Tom tick remover as they're amazing and by far the best thing ever for safely removing ticks. http://www.otom.com/ When out and about always have it handy.
4) Do not squeeze the body of the tick, DO NOT put vaseline or alcohol on the tick or in anyway freak the tick out before you have removed it, as it will empty it's stomach contents out into the bite including all the bacterial nasties that we're trying to avoid (like Lymes).
5) If we or our animals have a red ring/rash around a tick bite go to the doctors/vet straight away and demand to be tested for Lyme disease and make sure we get put on a course of antibiotics as soon as possible.
I've found out that if you catch Lymes disease it will forever be in your system (it's a bacteria) and the worst of it will kick in when you get old. Even if you are feeling no ill effects from it now, the earlier you can get on the antibiotics the better as it will reduce the effect of the symptoms later on in life.
This is also a good leaflet... http://www.newforest.gov.uk/index.cfm?articleid=5561
Hope that's helpful.
hen
x
Ticks are a bug which can be anoying but no more than mosqitoes and you should not let them limit your outdoorslife.
That said HEN:s post is spot on and especially point no.5!
DO NOT TAKE THIS LIGHTLY!
I got lymedisease from a tick I obviously didn't notice and when I sought medical help for strange illness symptoms the doctors didn't get the clues right.
Untreated the lyme develloped into "Chronic fatigue syndrom" and I litterally lost 5 years of my life and still counting.
Bottom line:
Checking for ticks daily and knowing signs of lymedisease is just one more bushcraft skill we should all have. Learn them and spread them on your next bushcraft meet and we will all be fine!
spiritofold
25-10-2008, 14:12
The second person out of my tribe to get lyme disease has just been treated with a two week course of amoxycillin. He had a tick bite on his lower leg. I removed the tick and a week later the bullseye appeared and started spreading out. Had to take him for a blood test yesterday so's the antibodies to the bacteria can be confirmed, just for statistical records. The antibiotics have done the trick though.
A hazard of the woodland round here!
Andy >>>>>---------------------------------<>
That happened to someone I know too Husky - Lyme disease went diagnosed as ME for a long time.
gunslinger
26-10-2008, 00:32
There was a recent discussion on lymes disease on SoTP
http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=8773
I remember some mention of details of infected areas but havent had time to find it
Enjoy
GS
That happened to someone I know too Husky - Lyme disease went diagnosed as ME for a long time.
Thats just as bad but I actually got ME from not treating the lyme.
Hi All,
I have just pulled this of another forum SWOG I visit and thought it would be of use to us aswell
At the request of a few site members to put information about Lyme/Borreliosis on the forum here goes. It is going to be in some detail so you can follow the development of the disease so you don't end up with a chronic infection.
Ticks have a 3 host cycle. This means that each stage of their life they must have a blood meal. If that host is carrying an infection it infects the tick for the rest of its life ( lateral transmission ) even going through the egg stage.(vertical transmission ) You can have all 3 different stages on the same host although the Larvae ( 6 legs ) and a lesser extent Nymphs ( 8 legs ) so called seed ticks as they are so small, feed on smaller animals. Adults ( 8 legs ) and Nymphs feed on larger animals and that includes you.After each meal they drop to the ground and develop to the next stage. Normally a 3 year cycle. In the life cycle you have a spring and autumn rise in tick activity although on the West Coast of Scotland they are active throughout the year. So you have spring cycling and autumn cycling ticks.
The bacteria causing the disease are
Borrelia burgdorferi ( Bb )...................Mainly arthritis
Borrelia garinnii ( Bg )........................Mainl y nervous complaints
Borrelia afzelii (Ba )............................M ainly skin complaints
but there is considerable overlap.
This infection can be passed on from an infected tick biting you. Tick saliva is anaesthetic, anticoagulant and a recently discovered protein called Salp15 which at te time of the bite coats te bacteria as it passes inti your system. This enables it to evade the immune system until the infection is welll established and means there is a slow build up of antibodies. NOTE THIS.
In the tick the Borrelia are attached to the gut and the blood releases them and they move to the salivary glands. ( the tick moves from ground temperature to blood heat ) At the same time they ( bacteria ) change their coat ( OSP A to OSP C). This is the reason the tick has to be attached for more than 36 hours although some research suggests can be passed on sooner. Also throughout the infection the bacteria is changing its coat so that the immune system is playing catch up the whole time
[Photos: snip]
Clinical Signs and Symptoms.
All diagnoses start off by talking of Erythem Migrans ( EM ) This is a circle of redness radiating from the tick bite at a rate of 2/5 mm a day from 7-42 days afterward. This is non painful and isn't raised. This occurs in les than 30% of patients. If a tick bites you and there is an immediate swelling/redness which disappears in a day or 2 NORMAL bacterial infection. Not Lyme disease.
[Photos:snip]
Other symptoms are flu like ,stiff neck,swollen glands extreme fatigue, intermittent temperature , muscle and joint pains, eye dysfunction..
Consultation with GP. Now the ? fun starts. Don't have a clue as they do not have lectures on Zoonosis at University. Unfortunately the guidelines given by the HPA are those of the CDC American protocol and are useless for this country as they only have Bb. Take a blood sample for Laboratory diagnosis. This is too soon as immune system hasn't reacted yet. Negative..,.. NO LYME Disease .... WRONG.
May have given you a short course of antibiotics for rash depresses immune system as well. Negative WRONG
In some cases may give a positive result on first test go onto a second if you are lucky. This is called a Western Blot ( immunoblot ). The lab staff then interpret the bands as positive or negative.
Each lab has their own protocol and it seems hit or miss. They tried to formulate a European Standard for the labs but it was unsuccessful.
The Scottish Reference lab at Raigmore Hospital Inverness have grown 2 out of 3 local bacterial Bb, Ba types and are using a mixture for testing with improved results.
GPs must diagnose on clinical grounds with may be lab confirmation.
The guidelines also suggest a short course of antibiotics as sufficient. Unfortunately they should be high dosage and last a minimum of 3-4 weeks or until you respond. Anyone needing more info pm me.
morena
==========
:End of article
The article is quite good (written by a vet I believe) but there's a few points:
Rural GPs are actually pretty familiar with Lyme -at least the ones I know are.
There are in fact other Borrelia organisms besides the three mentioned that may be pathogenic (disease causing) but the lab at Raigmore do indeed use the mixed burgdorfei/afzelli test and have been doing so for over a year.
The HPA guidelines are evidence based. They specifically state that testing soon after exposure is likely to give a false negative result.
Treatment duration as recommended by HPA is normally 2 to 4 weeks depending on presentation. That's pretty cautious as there is evidence that 10 day courses are as effective in early Lyme as longer ones.
There is a lot of dodgy Lyme information on the net. The thinking runs like this:
Lyme can cause a huge variety of symptoms (true, to a point)
Tests can be falsely negative (true, to some degree)
Therefore, whatever your symptoms, it's Lyme. You need six months of iv antibiotics in my private clinic, and we accept credit cards...
Hi All,
I have just pulled this of another forum SWOG I visit and thought it would be of use to us aswell
At the request of a few site members to put information about Lyme/Borreliosis on the forum here goes. It is going to be in some detail so you can follow the development of the disease so you don't end up with a chronic infection.
Ticks have a 3 host cycle. This means that each stage of their life they must have a blood meal. If that host is carrying an infection it infects the tick for the rest of its life ( lateral transmission ) even going through the egg stage.(vertical transmission ) You can have all 3 different stages on the same host although the Larvae ( 6 legs ) and a lesser extent Nymphs ( 8 legs ) so called seed ticks as they are so small, feed on smaller animals. Adults ( 8 legs ) and Nymphs feed on larger animals and that includes you.After each meal they drop to the ground and develop to the next stage. Normally a 3 year cycle. In the life cycle you have a spring and autumn rise in tick activity although on the West Coast of Scotland they are active throughout the year. So you have spring cycling and autumn cycling ticks.
The bacteria causing the disease are
Borrelia burgdorferi ( Bb )...................Mainly arthritis
Borrelia garinnii ( Bg )........................Mainl y nervous complaints
Borrelia afzelii (Ba )............................M ainly skin complaints
but there is considerable overlap.
This infection can be passed on from an infected tick biting you. Tick saliva is anaesthetic, anticoagulant and a recently discovered protein called Salp15 which at te time of the bite coats te bacteria as it passes inti your system. This enables it to evade the immune system until the infection is welll established and means there is a slow build up of antibodies. NOTE THIS.
In the tick the Borrelia are attached to the gut and the blood releases them and they move to the salivary glands. ( the tick moves from ground temperature to blood heat ) At the same time they ( bacteria ) change their coat ( OSP A to OSP C). This is the reason the tick has to be attached for more than 36 hours although some research suggests can be passed on sooner. Also throughout the infection the bacteria is changing its coat so that the immune system is playing catch up the whole time
[Photos: snip]
Clinical Signs and Symptoms.
All diagnoses start off by talking of Erythem Migrans ( EM ) This is a circle of redness radiating from the tick bite at a rate of 2/5 mm a day from 7-42 days afterward. This is non painful and isn't raised. This occurs in les than 30% of patients. If a tick bites you and there is an immediate swelling/redness which disappears in a day or 2 NORMAL bacterial infection. Not Lyme disease.
[Photos:snip]
Other symptoms are flu like ,stiff neck,swollen glands extreme fatigue, intermittent temperature , muscle and joint pains, eye dysfunction..
Consultation with GP. Now the ? fun starts. Don't have a clue as they do not have lectures on Zoonosis at University. Unfortunately the guidelines given by the HPA are those of the CDC American protocol and are useless for this country as they only have Bb. Take a blood sample for Laboratory diagnosis. This is too soon as immune system hasn't reacted yet. Negative..,.. NO LYME Disease .... WRONG.
May have given you a short course of antibiotics for rash depresses immune system as well. Negative WRONG
In some cases may give a positive result on first test go onto a second if you are lucky. This is called a Western Blot ( immunoblot ). The lab staff then interpret the bands as positive or negative.
Each lab has their own protocol and it seems hit or miss. They tried to formulate a European Standard for the labs but it was unsuccessful.
The Scottish Reference lab at Raigmore Hospital Inverness have grown 2 out of 3 local bacterial Bb, Ba types and are using a mixture for testing with improved results.
GPs must diagnose on clinical grounds with may be lab confirmation.
The guidelines also suggest a short course of antibiotics as sufficient. Unfortunately they should be high dosage and last a minimum of 3-4 weeks or until you respond. Anyone needing more info pm me.
morena
==========
:End of article
littlebiglane
16-04-2010, 18:22
I'm not aware of any evidence that vitamin B6 can reduce tick bites, and B6 in overdosage most definitely can give you a nasty peripheral neuropathy. The strength of 'over the counter' B6 tablets was reduced because people were getting toxicity from taking excessive doses.
Its B1 (thiamine) not B6 that is used...
Its B1 (thiamine) not B6 that is used...
OK. It was B6 that someone mentioned.
A quick lit search showed no evidence that B1 (Thiamine) is effective either. But it won't do you much harm either. :)
stickler
17-04-2010, 09:31
I haven't had time to read all of the previous posts, but there does seem to be some misunderstanding. Please do visit my website
http://www.shootpics.co.uk/lyme_disease.html
There are 2 BBC videos there to watch. They may well open up some people's eyes!
At the bottom are links to the BADA site and Tick Awareness Week site (today is the last day of this awareness week....though many people know nothing about it and all the dog walkers I've seen knew nothing when I spoke to them). You can download leaflets, posters and buy car stickers etc from BADA.
Lyme Disease is not treatable.....only the effects are. Preventing Lyme Disease developing is easy as long as you are alert. If you have any concerns you should immediately seek a blood test, though they will probably put you on strong antibiotics and test you a few days later. I've had to go through this and a gamekeeper friend regularly goes to his doctor for antibiotics and tests having removed the ticks himself but then developed a rash.
BTW, my daughter got a tick in France. The doctor used chloroform on it before pulling it out. I'm not sure he did the right thing as they say not to use liquids etc as they cause the tick to regurgitate and can infect you whereas proper removal may have stopped any infection.
Please do spread the word about ticks because it's a growing problem and some sources say that 1 in 3 ticks carries the bug. Please do link to my website page.....the top video showing how ill the lady is now, is enough to frighten most people into being more aware!
I think this is my first post on this forum....sorry it's not more cheerful!
Stickler
I haven't had time to read all of the previous posts, but there does seem to be some misunderstanding.
Lyme Disease is not treatable.....only the effects are.
Stickler
That is completely untrue.
stickler
18-04-2010, 10:29
That is completely untrue.
Sorry...but that's what my doctors have told me. It wasn't caught within a few days so antibiotics could do nothing.
Stickler
A friend of mind got Lyme disease down in Wales, had to have antibiotics for months, was unable to work and even now nearly a year later is only able to work part time. The doctors didn't diagnose it for a couple of weeks and by then the full wrath and fury of Lymes had kicked in. After seeing this first hand it is now habit for me to smoke out any natural shelters, check clothes, bedding, body etc, prevention far outweighs the remedy.
stickler
19-04-2010, 21:12
A friend of mind got Lyme disease down in Wales, had to have antibiotics for months, was unable to work and even now nearly a year later is only able to work part time. The doctors didn't diagnose it for a couple of weeks and by then the full wrath and fury of Lymes had kicked in. After seeing this first hand it is now habit for me to smoke out any natural shelters, check clothes, bedding, body etc, prevention far outweighs the remedy.
I noticed a tick on my leg towards the end of a shower. It didn't look like a tick (though I had no idea at the time what they did look like!). I yanked it out, wondering why it 'stuck' and 'stung' as I pulled it out. Then a rash came up which I thought was just an allergic reaction or something so slapped on some antiseptic cream.
Since then I've had painful joints, sore muscles and deep pains in my bones. I get breathless, can't walk uphill and have many other 'problems'. My liver and kidneys don't function properly according to the latest tests and following other tests (cos my memory has become so bad) I'm told that I now have dementia.
A short while ago the rash on my leg came back and was a tad sore/itchy. My ankle and knee joints were so painful......then the pain hit my bones and muscles. I could hardly walk for 2-3 months ad when I could walk it was slow and painful.
It was so bad one day that I went into hospital where they told me what they thought it was and gave me some tablets....though as I have little memory I can't recall everything and can't remember what he chap said, though it was something to do with burst blood vessels.
But I then went to see my doctor within a few days, who is brilliant! She viewed the photos of the rash on my leg and immediately sent me for tests for Lyme disease. But, all too late according to her! It hadn't been 'stopped' soon enough and the infection (or whatever it is) was in me and she said all they could now do was treat the resultant symptoms as they cropped up.
So, AFAIAA, once you've really got it, you've got it!! If you are in the early stage and catch it, then antibiotics can stop it in its tracks, from my understanding. Though, I could be wrong! But I do not appreciate being referred to in such strong terms as 'Doc' has used and I think perhaps his/her bedside manner could be improved upon to help us offer info/experiences rather than hinder us from relating them. If later technology or changes in medical practice have altered what I was told, then so be it........but perhaps we could be just politely informed rather than made to look like a liar?
Stickler :-(
I'm sorry you've had such a bad time with Lyme, Stickler, and your story is helpful because it will encourage others to be 'Lyme aware'. Some people with late stage Lyme are left with ongoing symptoms.
But that doesn't mean that 'Lyme Disease is not treatable' - there is a lot of published evidence that shows that it is. For early stage Lyme, the usual outcome is complete cure. I can provide references to published scientific evidence to back this up.
I never suggested you were a liar. I never criticised you at all.
There is so much misleading information on Lyme on the net, and this can cause harm, so I'm sorry if I was bit too direct.
A good example is that there have been posts on here advocating removing ticks by applying meths, tobacco juice, etc. As you rightly pointed out in your first post, this isn't a good idea.
leaf man
20-04-2010, 16:12
This thread has opened my eyes a little. Again it is also testement to the knowledge of members of our group.
Having read all the posts, i am now aware and will remain so. It also explains the constant rash on the less hairy parts of my border terriers fleshy private parts. What should i do?
And here's one of the blighters in all his glory, picked up on Loch Sheil.
PS the photos' not life sized!
http://i874.photobucket.com/albums/ab301/gweedo01/Canoeing/106.jpg?t=1271781739
stickler
21-04-2010, 20:09
My aim in posting here was simply to reinforce the message about Lyme disease so that more people become aware. I don't intend getting into personal arguments, but I just thought that Doc's response didn't do anything to further the cause and provided no explanation for us to consider. If it had been differently worded then I wouldn't have responded as I did.
That aside, I understand that a pharmaceutical company will be holding a tick awareness month this year, though the suggestion is that it will be aimed at vets and/or the medical profession.....not the public. We'll have to wait and see.
What concerns me about the intended market is that some of those professions need to be made aware. (Why aren't they already 'aware'?). What drugs/treatment the pharm. co. will be selling and whether it's anything new, I have no idea. But they must regard it as being worthwhile for their interests, unless their intention is purely charitable. For it to be worthwhile, there must be enough cases to justify the expense, or perhaps the 'treatment' is expensive? The BADA site reckons that 3,000 people get Lyme's each year - that's 8 a day.
I don't know and I'm not here to judge. My intention is simply to make more people aware of Lyme disease, what to look out for, how to remove ticks safely and how to get proper & timely treatment if necessary.
There are a lot of notions in people's minds: I have been asked where I went to in Dorset to have caught Lyme's!! Well, I haven't been there for many years and the tick I got was 'local', LOL! It may be that many years ago Lyme's was confined to that area, but the spread of host animals (particularly deer) has meant that it is much wider.
I now have a poster in my car and display 2 in the side windows when parking at our local country park which is visted by people from many miles away - a visiting Spanish family were there yesterday. I've run off some cards to try to get people to visit the relevant page on my website and at BADA. I will be handing them out at all the shoots I attend as well as to all the dog-walkers I meet.
The mother of a gamekeeper friend has been very ill through Lyme's. I don't suppose she will mind handing out some cards either and I will run off 'posters' for any of my beating collegues if they want to put them in their cars. Some of the beaters I meet go beating at shoots that I don't attend, so I hope they may take some cards with them and distribute them.
The document (a label template) I use has a slight problem in that a blank page follows the complete one and I can't find out how to delete it/the info on it. Once I can, I will put it on my website for people to download and print if they wish. Cut out the cards and distribute......and we can all make people more aware of this horrible disease and how to reduce the risks or prevent it.
Stickler
PS. there's now a PDF file available from http://www.shootpics.co.uk/lyme_disease.html - just go the foot of the page and click the link on the right for 'save & print the shootpics tick cards'.
stickler
21-04-2010, 22:20
This thread has opened my eyes a little. Again it is also testement to the knowledge of members of our group.
Having read all the posts, i am now aware and will remain so. It also explains the constant rash on the less hairy parts of my border terriers fleshy private parts. What should i do?
That sounds more like skin mites (or something similar) that have been irritating your dog....and s/he has been chewing at them. A visit to the vets might be advisable. Perhaps it's an allergy?
Personally, I use Thornit, and just rub it in very lightly, or put some vaseline on my finger (within a plastic bag!) and then dab it in the Thornit. My dawg was dragging his bum on the ground, despite having been wormed. Thornit in Vaseline did the trick!!
Just Google 'thornit' and you'll find lots of suppliers, though in large quantity it can be bought as 'earclear' more cheaply in some cases. (It's widely used as a prevention for ear mites/canker......my vet recommends it as a prevention which I rub into my dog's ears/paws......but he does not recommend it as a cure for canker. But my father has used it for probably +40 years [or since it was first invented and written about in a newspaper] and swears by it. His chemist used to make it up......but these days it's a problem buying the ingredients.....so Thornit can be the answer).
Your vet should perhaps be the first course of action. (The rash on my leg where I was tick-bitten only comes up occasionally.....it's not there constantly. But I have no experience of a dog/animal with Lyme's - only humans).
Stickler
I came back from Scotland with a tick on me (no idea how long)
it dropped off yesterday.
just a red spot, no pain, but Ill keep an eye on it