new twist to an old idea- snare wire

[GIlls]

Hi all. Been Browsing this forum for a while and finally think i have something for you to ponder on and discuss in the forum. so here goes

Am a veterinarian and just recently have received a video of "newer" surgical techniques and materials and one of the topics was Stainless steel suture material.. and of course this got me thinking,that it would be a very useful multi use piece of kit in any survival situation. stainless wire is very strong,light weight, does not take up a lot of space, can be used as snare wire, lashing,minor repairs to a multitude of gear and in a pinch, suture material.

As stainless steel is not "seen" by the body so there is very little reaction or irritation when it is used as suture material, so my kit is going to have a few different gauges of this stuff.

many of you may be saying that " sure hes a vet he can get the suture material easy... but its not that difficult you just have to look in the fishing supply store and look for the stainless steel fishing leader ( Of course you do have to take the proper precautions of disinfecting before you use it as suture material) it is available in different gauges, just make sure of two things
1. it's stainless steel and
2 its single strand, not braided

what do you guys think?

[crazydave]

the americans advocate stainless steel as snare wire as its stronger. for sutures it sounds like a good idea to me anyway but i've sutured a lot in the past. not so sure how the practical side would work unless you maybe poked a 2 inch piece through and twisted it tight. you could also use a safety pin as per thesurvival manuals :)

actually thinking on wasn't there a copper type of suture material? I split my ear when I was 4 and have vivid memories of having copper coloured stitches

[hammock monkey]

Hi Gllls,
there are guitar strings made of stainless steel that i've thought might well come in pretty handy at times, especially because they have a 'ball end' which is effectively a pre made loop.

there's 6 in a pack for £6, 3 are 1 strand each going up in differing thickness's (from 9 thou to approx 17thou), 3 are wrapped (similar to braided) and heavier again although the wrapping doesnt contribute to strength.

good for fishing, snares, repairs to kit and yourself, rigging up all manner of stuff.

Obviously they don't biodegrade and they'd cut into trees if tied around, but if used responsibly they'd be great i'm sure, especially as they're so strong. They weight just a couplr of grams each and take up virtually no room.

by the way, much respect to you for doing your job,
cheers

[Glen]

Hi Gllls,
there are guitar strings made of stainless steel that i've thought might well come in pretty handy at times, especially because they have a 'ball end' which is effectively a pre made loop.

there's 6 in a pack for £6, 3 are 1 strand each going up in differing thickness's (from 9 thou to approx 17thou), 3 are wrapped (similar to braided) and heavier again although the wrapping doesnt contribute to strength.

good for fishing, snares, repairs to kit and yourself, rigging up all manner of stuff.



You can buy the strings as seperates, the thinner gauge ones being cheaper than the thicker one, the bottom 3, being wound are more expensive still.

[hammock monkey]

You can buy the strings as seperates, the thinner gauge ones being cheaper than the thicker one, the bottom 3, being wound are more expensive still.

you'll find that they're the standard nickel steel though, stainless strings are less common, its unlikely that a shop owner will split a set and sell you one.
I buy a few hundred packs at a time as i repair guitars for a living all nickel steel or phos bronze though. There are goretex coated available nowadays, maybe they'd be ok.

I'll grab a s/steel set and chuck in my bag tho, as a noose alone they must have a ton of uses...they could possibly one of those things you never knew you needed, and at virtually zero weight it's all good :)

[fishy1]

Why would guitar strings be goretex coated? I'm curious, can't see why they need to be breathable.

[hammock monkey]

Gore-tex preserves them, normal strings tend to dull pretty quickly (an hour or so for some brands) of normal playing.
The coated strings (admittedly its just the thicker 'wound' strings that have this treatment) last much longer, they're approx twice the price though.
Its all a matter of preference for a guitar player - they have much more 'zing', but from a bc point of view any of them would be pretty handy i'm sure.

Why goretex though? not sure, some brands use other coatings, i guess there's patent issues etc.
For creating snares tc, not sure the rabbit would mind too much :)

There's possibly an issue of smell though, to a rabbit.... not sure. Never bothered snaring rabbits myself, i wouldnt unless i was desperate.

[Surrey Yeoman]

I guess in a genuine survival situation your could use anything that came to hand as a snare. However, I'm pretty sure that in the UK, there's a Law or at least a Code of Practice, that says Rabbit snares have to be made of BRASS wire and have no less than SIX strands of wire twisted together, with a free running eyelet at the business end. They must not be of a self locking type and must loosen when the animal relaxes or stops pulling against it.

Any gamekeepers / Poachers! / other experts care to comment?

This seems to be good read, dated 2005.

http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-countryside/vertebrates/snares/pdf/iwgs-report.pdf

Interestingly, a brief Google search revealed that The League Against Cruel Sports appears to have tried to get a Bill through Parliament in 2006 which would have Banned the use, manufacture, sale and possession of snares!

Something to keep an eye on I'd say!

[mick miller]

Yeoman is correct, they also require a fixed stop set 5" from the eye to conform to current DEFRA advice, however this is not law

[Surrey Yeoman]

Thanks Mick. I didn't know about the fixed stop. Interestingly that wasn't mentioned on any of the bushcraft type courses I've been on!

How do you put the stop in?

[Mesquite]

Thanks Mick. I didn't know about the fixed stop. Interestingly that wasn't mentioned on any of the bushcraft type courses I've been on!

How do you put the stop in?

The code of conduct for snaring rabbits copied from the report you posted Yeoman.

Makes for interesting reading in that it stipulates brass wire for the snare so that must rule out the use of SS snare wire (even if it is superior to brass wire). It's also interesting that an incorrectly set snare can result in the trapper being prosecuted and if found guilty face a £5,00 fine and or a 6 month prison sentence for each offence.

How to set snares to capture rabbits
1. Rabbit snares should be constructed with 3 or 4 -stranded brass wire (doubled
so that whilst there are 3-4 strands around the eye, there are 6-8 in the noose)
with a loop of 4” (10 cm) diameter for the head of the rabbit. The snare must
have a fixed stop about 5” (14 cm) from the ‘eye’ of the snare.
2. You must ensure that snares are free running at the time they are set and
remain so during their use. Snares that are frayed or damaged must be safely
disposed off.
3. The loop should be positioned 3” (9cm) above the ground using a short
notched stick, the ‘tealer’.
4. The free end of the wire must be securely tethered by a strong, rot-proof cord
attached to a peg that is driven firmly into the ground. It must not be possible
for the snare to become free because of the serious welfare consequences that
could ensue.
5. Avoid leaving scent on the snare and the area around the snare by rubbing
your hands with soil and wearing clean rubber boots. Set the snare whilst
standing or crouching rather than kneeling down.
6. Try not to disturb the run and try not to broaden it.
7. You must adapt your procedures for setting snares in the light of experience,
particularly to minimise the risks to non-target species

[hammock monkey]

thanks for putting us straight there, i think we were only being hypothetical.

its a pretty distasteful pastime either way - its not something i've ever done, and hopefully never will. In fact as kids we used to go out looking for snares and traps and destroy them. I'd most likely still do the same if i found them now. Its ok as a last resort, but to be honest the chances of me geting to that stage in the uk is pretty much zero. There's no need to put any animal through that much distress in my book, legal or otherwise.

anyway, the main point for me is that they might be a useful tool out and about for rigging things up/ repairs etc - if i get any particular uses i'll mention it :)

[mick miller]

Thanks Mick. I didn't know about the fixed stop. Interestingly that wasn't mentioned on any of the bushcraft type courses I've been on!

How do you put the stop in?

[EDIT: A fixed stop is not law, only a recommendation]

A fixed stop can be put in by simply using another eyelet set five inches up from the actual eye at the end of the snare. When twisting the wires put a couple of twists in first then carefully pop another eye in and then continue twisting. It's only a little bit more fiddly.

I'm not sure that a snare of this type is any crueler than shooting to be honest, given that responsible use of snare would dictate that you revisit often to check whether anything had been caught and that the method of dispatch requires that you break the rabbits neck with one swift movement, death is therefore pretty immediate and very hands-on. I've have witnessed poor shots merely wounding rabbits which then escape to meet what can only be a drawn out and painful death. There's also something to be said for the immediacy that snaring creates, guns distance the individual from the process of killing the animal, and that process I think somehow makes you more respectful of the animal you have just killed for food.

These are of course only my own thoughts and feelings on the subject and I accept they may not match other peoples beliefs.

[FGYT]

that all seems to be a Recommendation for a Code of conduct from a working group to DEFRA

Thats not a law so SS wire should be fine

Unless it has now been passed into Law :o

there are laws on snares and traps ie no spring traps etc ( i e the ones that would kill quickly and stop long suffering :rolleyes:

[mick miller]

[QUOTE=FGYT;417793]that all seems to be a Recommendation for a Code of conduct from a working group to DEFRA

FGYT, So would that apply to the rule on fixed stops too or only the wire type used?

[edit: I've just read more thoroughly and the fixed stop does not seem to be law, only a recommendation. That seems to be a shame to me, if you catch the wrong thing it could easily throttle itself then? I'll edit out my previous erroneous post to prevent confusion then.]

[Native Justice]

Are we talking in terms of "survival" related snare sets specifically intended for harvests needed to stay alive vs. traditional sport or game related harvests? In a survival situation I'd think we'd all say "screw the laws, snare set material be damned, I'm doing what's necessary to stay alive". Don't know many people who'd actually pursue game for harvest with snare sets under "ordinary" circumstances anyway .... most trappers would use some slightly more sophisticated means of trapping game from my experience.

Just my thoughts ...

NJ

[mick miller]

Absolutely, in a survival situation (which is the original direction of the thread I admit to having been sidetracked) you would say rules be damned. In this case the Stainless suture material is ideal if it's supple and strong enough.

I like the guitar strings idea too although as I'm not a musician more a fisherman and as such I always tend to carry a small loop of multi-stranded pike trace wire in my fishing kit, this coupled with a large eyed swivel could also be quickly fashioned into an effective snare if needs be.

What gauges are the suture material available in though, it might make a better alternative over the current materials used for pike traces too if a single strand with a high enough breaking strain is available? And is it very pricey?

[Draven]

I've always found the idea of sutures in a survival kit to be very odd. Namely, because most people wouldn't have the minerals to sew themself back together :p

As for guitar strings, I'm not sure if they'd be thin enough. Typically speaking, the thinnest commonly available guitar string is 0.009 of an inch (the thinnest I've heard of being 0.007) and while I use .010s it seems like even an .009 would be pretty thick for a suture. Maybe I'm mistaken, though.

Stainless guitar strings shouldn't be too difficult to find, though they have a bassier sound IIRC than normal nickel or steel strings so they tend to be easier to come by in the higher guages (such as .012s for drop-tuned guitars, and 4/5/6 string bass guages). I'm allergic to Nickel so I use stainless on my electric bass, but the nickel doesn't bother me on my guitar for whatever reason.

I'm sure that Ernie Ball makes stainless strings, and I think Rotosound does too but not certain about that one.

One should also note that not all guitar strings have loops at the end, some have "bullets" and some will have a ball.

EDIT: Looked at the EB website, you can buy SS strings starting at .008 but only as a set of six, going up to .038. Singles are only available starting at 0.020. I think something other than guitar strings should be looked to for suturing :p

[fishy1]

thanks for putting us straight there, i think we were only being hypothetical.

its a pretty distasteful pastime either way - its not something i've ever done, and hopefully never will. In fact as kids we used to go out looking for snares and traps and destroy them. I'd most likely still do the same if i found them now. Its ok as a last resort, but to be honest the chances of me geting to that stage in the uk is pretty much zero. There's no need to put any animal through that much distress in my book, legal or otherwise.

anyway, the main point for me is that they might be a useful tool out and about for rigging things up/ repairs etc - if i get any particular uses i'll mention it :)

That's just vandalism.

I don't think it's a distasteful pastime, checked frequently, killed quickly, eaten, used.

I think things like battery hen farming are far more inhumane. The things that I believe were inhumane like leg traps (I've forgotten the proper name, they snap on the leg of the animal and break it) have been banned.

Are you vegetarian? Do you eat battery farmed chickens in any of your foods? What about intensively farmed pigs?

[Thijzzz]

On topic: as a fisherman, I know that stainless steel in fishing tackle shops will be of 3 sorts:

- Multistrand: for instance Drennan Seven Strand. This makes it flexible thought difficult to put eyes in, because it's springy. You'll need sleeves (1 cm thin metal tube) that you pull the wire through and than clamp shut with pliers.

- Coated multistrand: when wound up into an eyelet, with say 2 cm twisted into itself, you can use a flame to melt the coating together. Tough enough to hold big pikes. (See avatar :rolleyes: )

- Stainless steel springwire, single strand. Ususally thicker, up from 0,5 mm to 1,5 mm. Because it's spring wire, it will not bend easily and that's and advantage when fishing. But it is a nightmare to twist/manipulate without pliers.

Just my 2 cents!

Thijs

[Long Stride]

I use an old guitar string for hanging my billy over the fire. :D

[fishy1]

On topic: as a fisherman, I know that stainless steel in fidhing tackle shops will be of 3 sorts:

- Multistrand: for instance Drennan Seven Strand. This makex it flexible thought difficult to put eyes in, because it's springy. You'll need sleeves (1 cm thin metal tube) that you pull the wire through and the clamp shut with pliers.

- Coated multistrand: when wound up into an eyelet, with say 2 cm twisted into itself, you can use a flame to melt the coating together. Tough enough to hold big pikes. (See avatar :rolleyes: )

- Stainless steel springwire, single strand. Ususally thicker, up from 0,5 mm to 1,5 mm. Because it's spring wire, it will not bend easily and that's and advantage when fishing. But it is a nightmare to twist/manipulate without pliers.

Just my 2 cents!

Thijs

I call the metal sleeves crimps, and buy them as such for making mackerel traces in bulk.

[GIlls]

hmm... seems like i' ve stirred up a bit of a discussion here... :D anyway my intention was in a survival situation this piece of kit should come in handy for a number of things not just for snares or suture but something that is inexpensive and very versatile. i admit my title may be a bit off... and i apologize, but anyway let the discussion continue.

[Gonefishing]

When I used to snare a fair old lot of rabbits, my snares were made (by me) from phosphor bronze wire. 2 doubled strands for rabbits, 3 for hares or where hares might be an unsought bycatch. Some might say this is on the fine side, but I never had one break yet.

I think I've got one hank of the old wire left; haven't used these items/methods for many years now. PB 4-strand snares are thinner, so kill better; meaning kill more rabbits.

Stainless steel is springy stuff and prone to kinking. Brass and bronze are ductile alloys, and stay put when bent, and a running noose of brass or bronze will not tend to spring open as a SS one might do. If life depended on it I'd make do with what was available, but not otherwise.

Rabbits don't run ears-down, so you should accommodate the full head-and-ears height, with the noose having adequate clearance all round. Lots of people underestimate how high the noose should be set (the commonly quoted man's fist height is too low) and also how big the noose should be.

If you don't check and empty your snares early - before/during sunup, crows and suchlike will rob you - and you'll find holes punched into the carcases where the crows stab into the rabbit to get the tasty inside bits. No dealer will take rabbits damaged like this.

With a fresh set I usually expected a decent ratio of kills the first day, less the second, and by the third a move was often needed as the return wasn't worth the candle. If the population was still too high I'd then follow up with other methods - but these are more time intensive, and expensive. Snares are more economical in terms of both outlay and time.

There are places that are good for snares and places where snares should not be used.
Keep them away from rights of way and other areas where the public might notice - not for legal reasons, but the public likes its Peter Rabbit mythology and them seeing a rabbit in a snare isn't the way to foster good local relations.

[Gonefishing]

Whoops, hadn't realised this was my first post on the forum. Just noticed my post count is 1 on sending in that one about snares.

Apologies.

Been lurking & reading for a long time...

Ian
GF

[C_Claycomb]

I have been shown, in demos, how to set squirrel snares made from stainless steel locking wire. This is used by people in the aircraft industry to wire bolt heads together so they do not come undone under vibration. It is strong stuff, but fairly ductile, not springy at all. Thing is, it will cut through itself at the loop if you only have single strands crossing.

I would imagine this would happen with brass wire too, but brass isn't strong enough to even try using as a single strand, so the issue never arrises. The way that we were shown of spreading the load could argueably turn the snare into a self locker. There are some threads kicking around about this, possibly in Fair Game.

[Gonefishing]

I have been shown, in demos, how to set squirrel snares made from stainless steel locking wire..
Unless your local squirrels are absolutely all greys, and I'm not sure you could ever be completely sure of that, how would you (if you actually do this) avoid snaring reds?

[C_Claycomb]

Unless your local squirrels are absolutely all greys, and I'm not sure you could ever be completely sure of that, how would you (if you actually do this) avoid snaring reds?

Most places in England only have grey squirrels. This map is 10 years out of date, but it gives a rough idea that there aren't many places in England where selective trapping would be a problem.

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/images/mgsq_dmap.gif/$FILE/mgsq_dmap.gif
From the Foresty Commission site.