Fire By Friction [Archive] - BushcraftUK: Community Forum

jamesdevine

09-09-2004, 16:29

Yes I can too with the bow and drill and once with the hand drill but not yet everytime. I for the first time in June but I still have problems with it. I have been using different woods etc. some work, some don't. It also seems to depend on my mood or my determination to do it.

James

Nightfall

09-09-2004, 21:25

TheViking

09-09-2004, 21:33

I can start a fire by friction, or should say if I use one set that I have. The bow drill set that gets the best results is made of a ceder spindle with a ceder hearthboard. I also have gotten embers with mulefat spindles.I am trying some different wood combos to no luck so far.I have a hand drill with thumb loops that works very good.For that one I use mulefat spindles and a willow hearthboard.Do you guys have mulefat [Bacchris salicifolia] over there?
Not to be pedant but it's Baccharis salicifolia. :wink: :o):
Picture here (http://www.timetotrack.com/jay/mulefat4.htm). :-)
I have never seen that plant over here, If that's what you meant? :wink:

09-09-2004, 21:41

After DG daves expert pointers at the BCUK meetup I can do it everytime with my personal set...... a good tip he gave me was to make lots of sets till you find one that works for you..... only then move onto more difficult woods..... practice, practice, practice......

:-)
Ed

Nightfall

09-09-2004, 22:10

Yup, thats what I ment.My 3 year old is trying to help me type. :o):

mr dazzler

09-09-2004, 23:00

I tried for very first time yesterday :shock:
tried ash spindle, oak top bearing, and sycamore & pine hearth-boards, sawn off bit of chair arm for a bow, length of handline thread. Squeaked like anything to start-is that normal. Didn't slip too much. Got stacks of smoke from pine board, and about a teaspoon of brown-black dust the spindle went shiny black and very hot, but no glowing ember or spark. I'll re-read revelant threads and keep trying :roll: :wink: :wink: :wink:

Nightfall

10-09-2004, 03:35

The spindle may squeek after you have been trying for awhile. The spindle becomes fire hardened. When that happens grind the tip a bit.The powder needs to be black and very fine. The notch in the hearthboard is very important also.If I remember right the powder needs to get to 600 or 800F.

mr dazzler

10-09-2004, 22:18

Thanks for the tips Nightfall. :wink:
I roughed up the whole spindle with coarse sandpaper (figured it'd make't spindle less likely to slip on't cord as well)
The end is shaped like a tapered test tube is this ok or should it be square cut across?
I cut a little pie slice shape out of't side of hearthboard hole
Is mulefat an oily wood? Does oiliness help ignition?
Again, thanks for your reply :wink:

MR D :wave:

10-09-2004, 22:37

The end is shaped like a tapered test tube is this ok or should it be square cut across?
A rounded test tube like end is what you want (good description by the way) which locates into the hearth, and a pointed end located in the bearing block.

I cut a little pie slice shape out of't side of hearthboard hole
Make sure you have burned your hole in well before you cut your pie slice (again a good description) or when you drill it wont stay central, it will wear towards the notch/pie slice and the spindle will move around when you are drilling. Also make sure your notch/pie slice doesn't go to the centre of the hole or you will find you just drill down and make a hole all the way through your hearth.... great if you are trying to drill a hole, but not what you want for fire...

:-)
Ed

mr dazzler

10-09-2004, 23:22

Evenin Ed,

Thanks for't tips mate. :thumbs_up
Is't taper on't top of spindel to reduce't fricshen?
And am I right thinking the idea of't little hole is to let the dust out. Does it ignarte on't 'eap??
What abowt marre choyce of't wudd?? Enny gudd?? Nightfall rates cedar-might be able to get a bit next week.
PS seemed to get more "heat action" (smoke at least), if I rock't bearing block back and forth a bit-is this ok??
Also I never got a flying spindle effect (yet)!! :roll: (actually that could be nasty)
Thanks for your reply

MR D :wave: :wink:

Nightfall

11-09-2004, 02:47

Mr. Dazzler, when I cut my notch in the hearthboard.Instead of a straight cut I will cut in then on the base I'll cut alittle out on both sides to give some moe room for the powder to form.The ember may get alittle more air that way.Hopefully I got what I ment there across.When you rock the bearing block are you also rocking the spindle?If so, you lose the heat you are building if the spindle loses any contact with the hearth.one difenetly wants a rounded spindle like Ed says.Also when the tip gets really chared up good I'll grind it down again for good contact.Also willow on willow works good.

jason01

11-09-2004, 03:49

Mr Dazzler

I dont think Pine is sposed to work, too sappy and gritty? I get great results with Willow from my own garden, also had success with apple once, had a "fireless" period when it stopped working but sorted thanks to some guidance from Gary!

Jason

leon-1

11-09-2004, 04:28

Ivy onto Hazel works well, Ivy on Ivy works well, Hazel on Lime is also a good combination. Have just got a couple of bits of Ash to turn into drills, I have Ivy Hearths and apart from ivy nothing much seems to work on them.

Well not strictly true I managed to get an ember drilling into one using Hazel, but I had added some of the standard soil to aid the friction effect. One major problem with this was that as I drilled the drill was making the majortiy of the dust for the ember and was getting shorter and shorter :shock:, but after a while I still had a good sized ember, I also learnt that hazel will not drill into Ivy without a lot of aid/effort and plenty of praying to the almighty :wink:

grumit

11-09-2004, 07:03

we were shown how to do it on a fundamentalbushcraft course with woodlore last month using alder on alder and ever since then i have had it working 99 percent of the time with willow on willow and find it easy once you have got the system right i also cheat a little as i have a beach pebble with a hole in the middle as a baring block but i can still do it using a wooden one :wink:

TheViking

11-09-2004, 08:21

Hi...

OK. Here's another one for you. I want to try it again and this time I want succes! Guess I'll just have to follow what it says in Ray Mears book...?

What wood shall i use?? I have oak, maple, a little hazel, elm, hawthorn, rowan, and a very small amount of birch.

?? :biggthump

11-09-2004, 09:59

I have Ivy Hearths and apart from ivy nothing much seems to work on them.
Try Bamboo, Put a drawing pin or tack in the top of the spindle to reduce friction and a little wooden peg to plug the hole on the bottom ;-)

Ed

leon-1

11-09-2004, 11:30

Cheers Ed, hadn't thought of bamboo :biggthump

Nightfall

11-09-2004, 14:54

The Viking, I would try the Maple first. I've heard that oak is to hard.Though I have heard of people using what is called Tan Oak as a hearth board here. Tan oak is not a true oak. I have never heard about using the other woods much.Then again I have never read a Ray Mears book. :?: A wood should be goo if you can dent it with a thumb nail.To easly, the wood may be too soft, hard to dent, it may be too hard.Either way keep trying. Practice makes perfect.You can do it. :super:

Nightfall

11-09-2004, 14:55

Oop's I ment good not goo.

masongary44

11-09-2004, 22:18

Mr D,

I am having great sucess using an ash spindle and a willow hearth. I use the tip of my Woodlore knife as a guide to the angle / size of the notch and it seems to work every time.

The key ting that has helped me the most is to use an old bearing block, one with a nice deep hole in it and push a drawing pin into the hole.. (as sugested already).

The end of the spindle polishes up nicely and i get an ember within about 40 seconds of setting up and starting....

The first time i achieved fire it took me nearly 2 hours, so stick with it....

Good luck

G:

mr dazzler

11-09-2004, 22:32

What diameter did you cut your spindle to Gary?
Mine is tapered about 1" at the top down to about 5/8" at the bottom.
I rekkend I'd get powwer with a thicker spyndel and speed with a thinner one. I tried again today and used a leather bootlace off of't olde clogges, which worked better than poly prop line-no slipping at all (wrapped it twice round spindle) still no ignition, but thanks for't encouragement-I'll keep trying.
I'm goin tu try more spindles-adding a metal drill piece to mekk oles on other projects. :wink:

MR D :wave:

masongary44

11-09-2004, 22:58

Mr D,

I think that the general rule is for spindle to be about as wide (diameter) as your squashed thumb is wide, so in my case about 7/8th's of an inch...

My bow is about 1m long, and i use cheap para cord for the line. The tension in the cord is such that once the spindle is in place, with the end of the bow in my chest i can just about move (pulling with both hands) the spindle towards me. If i cant move it it is too tight, if it slips easily it is too slack.

I also try to make my spindle long, another general rule is for the spindle to be roughly the equivalent of the distance between the tip of your thumb and the tip of your little finger (when you spread your hand out wide). I tend to make mine a little finger for 2 reasons... longevity (if i get a spindle that works well, i want it to last...) and it seems less prone to flying off just as you rev up the strokes for the last bit of the process.

I initially found it easiest using Willow on Willow, I then tried Sycamore on Sycamore and it seemed easier again, Now i find that Ash into Willow works great (but that is more because i have a limited supply of dead wood to choose from where I live).

The absolute best thing I found (by searching this forum) is to use the drawing pin. OK its cheating, but i have done it without, and in the worst case, a drawing pin ain't gonna take up much room if i add one to my travelling kit :)

Good luck, stick at it... It used to be the hardest thing in the world for me.

mr dazzler

11-09-2004, 23:15

Thanks Gary
Seems quite a few folk rate willow-I pruned wads of the stuff off of a sick specimen in't back garden last year-shame it all went to waste :roll: (Mind its nice to see't fresh new growth this year)

masongary44

11-09-2004, 23:34

Sorry its taken a while I had to remember the password for my website FTP access...

Anyway here is my current bow drill set...

http://www.gary-mason.net/images/bushcraft/bowdrillset.jpg
http://www.gary-mason.net/images/bushcraft/drillandhearth.jpg

Another quick tip.... When you put the thread around the spindle, make sue the spindle is on the outside of the bow set-up. This way you get a longer stroke out of your bow because you do not suffer form the narrowing of the gap as you approach either end.

Gripping the bow so you have your fingers over the cord also helps so you can manually adjust the tension while you are drilling :)

TheViking

17-10-2004, 15:49

Now I've got my vote in the wrong spot. :roll:

jack29g

28-11-2004, 14:49

TheViking

28-11-2004, 14:56

i've just been out to get some willow or other woods. Found a bit of willow. But theres just simply no woods around nere i live. I'm so annoyed. Theres no where to camp, no where to build shelters, no where to make fires!! :rant:
According to this map (http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&X=460000&Y=305000&width=500&height=300&gride=&gridn=&srec=0&coordsys=gb&db=freegaz&addr1=&addr2=&addr3=&pc=&advanced=&local=&localinfosel=&kw=&inmap=&table=&ovtype=&zm=1&scale=500000) I can see your problem. :cry: Couldn't you convince the old ones to drive to a wood and then gather something there?

jack29g

28-11-2004, 17:19

to be honest i don't know where we would go. To get the right stuff :red: :sigh:

Paganwolf

28-11-2004, 19:46

look in the local phone book for tree surgeons they're usually a good breed im sure one will help, tell them what you are looking for, you may be surprised, if you don't ask you don't get :wink:

JakeR

28-11-2004, 21:40

I've never really tried, i waiting for someone who know how to!

Fredcompanybushcraft

25-01-2010, 19:44

I've almost managed to get an ember using Alder on pine.
I just need more time off school to practise!

mattburgess

26-01-2010, 16:55

I managed it on the Bushcraft Fundamentals course - just! Then did it twice again at home to light the BBQ! Impressed my brother-in-law! This is bow drill by the way.

For anyone who hasn't done it yet the tip that seemed to help me, and everybody else on the course, teh most was jaming your wrist that holds the bearing block into your shin. But still expect a long hard slog!

pango

29-01-2010, 11:05

I was shown the use of the bow-drill in the 70's by a guy who worked for the Forestry Commission. The material used was bog-pine, both board and spindle! I have also had success with the heartwood of Caledonian Pine, which is almost white and remains after the outer wood has rotted away.

Scottish bog-pine, consisting mainly of roots and light grey in colour, has been preserved in peat and can be thousands of years old. The greatest difficulty is in finding a piece which is straight enough to form a spindle from.

It may not be seen as being in the spirit of things here, but my main concern when wandering Scotland's hills, glens and coastline is the confidence and knowledge that I can make fire wherever and as quickly as possible, so carry numerous means of making fire. The bow-drill method is carried in the form of knowledge and has only been put into practice on half a dozen occasions, and never as necessity!

Necessity dictates that fire by friction should never be a first choice! I use a cigarette lighter.

But... machines fall apart!

Edit;
ps; The original reason of my post was to point out that the poll options are inadequate.