View Full Version : Pitching a Basha/Hootchie - help
hobbitboy
08-09-2004, 13:34
Just been playing with my Basha in the garden and havin a few issue's pitching it. Can tie the knots all fine. But it seems to be "saggy" and i cant seem to get the sheet to stay tight and firm. Am I just being really dense? Or is there a skill to it??
How have you got it set up now?
yeh.. its difficult to say as it depends on how firm/rigid the thing you have tied it to is.. doesnt matter how good your knots are if its tied to a sappling which bends in the slightst breeze
Are you using prasik knots on the end loops of the ridge?
steven andrews
08-09-2004, 14:58
I use Hilleberg line runners (http://www.hilleberg.com/Catalog/line_runners__10_pieces__36684 4.htm) and guy lines on my basha/tarps. They are much lighter and more compact than bungees and work REALLY well.
I normally secure my basha with a round turn and two half hitches, all other points are tied off with truckers hitches on half weight paracord, this keeps the whole unit very taught.
Neil
I've often used bungees on at least some of the tie-down/suspension points. Maybe not very "bushcrafty" but it keeps the basha taught!
Ted W
C_Claycomb
08-09-2004, 17:03
Gary beat me to it!! Or something very like it. :-)
I was wanting to post something like this since I saw a couple of bashas at both the BCUK meet up and the WG that sagged.
This is how I have my basha set up. I have a long line run through all the loops on the central ridge, including the loops on each end, even though they seem turned the wrong way. That main line is tied with an Evenk (sic) and a tensioning knot. The four guylines from the corners are either tied to logs, trees, or pegs. I like the knot that is shown in Ray's Bushcraft book, regular knot used to tension tent guy lines.
Finally, and this is probably where the problem is, the ridge of the basha is tensioned. I have short lengths of paracord, 6-8", tied to the ridge end loops. These lengths are attached to the main ridge support line with CLOVE hitches. The hitches can be moved up and down the line with fingers. By sliding the hitches up towards the support trees the basha ridge gets tensioned. In fact you can put enough tension in that the other loops along the ridge don't rest on the ridge support line anymore.
This is very like the arrangement used on the Hennessy to tension their rainfly, only they use a better knot than a simple timber hitch, which is probably what Gary meant :roll:
If anyone has a better description, post it up and I will remove my rather bumbling explanation above :rolmao:
Note:ARGRGH Clove hitch, not Timber! :banghead: wrote this out while at work and far from favorite knot book :roll:
Gary beat me to it!! Or something very like it. :-)
I was wanting to post something like this since I saw a couple of bashas at both the BCUK meet up and the WG that sagged.
This is how I have my basha set up. I have a long line run through all the loops on the central ridge, including the loops on each end, even though they seem turned the wrong way. That main line is tied with an Evenk (sic) and a tensioning knot. The four guylines from the corners are either tied to logs, trees, or pegs. I like the knot that is shown in Ray's Bushcraft book, regular knot used to tension tent guy lines.
Finally, and this is probably where the problem is, the ridge of the basha is tensioned. I have short lengths of paracord, 6-8", tied to the ridge end loops. These lengths are attached to the main ridge support line with timber hitches. The timber hitches can be moved up and down the line with fingers. By sliding the hitches up towards the support trees the basha ridge gets tensioned. In fact you can put enough tension in that the other loops along the ridge don't rest on the ridge support line anymore.
This is very like the arrangement used on the Hennessy to tension their rainfly, only they use a better knot than a simple timber hitch, which is probably what Gary meant :roll:
If anyone has a better description, post it up and I will remove my rather bumbling explanation above :rolmao:
Chris,
Do you really use the timber hitch, or are you getting muddled?
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/content/community/inthefield/fieldguides/images/Outdoors/knot_library/camping_knots/timber_hitch_03.gif
Timber Hitch
I'm sure it works but I would have thought that a prussick (or one of it's variants would be better.
http://www.korpegard.nu/knopar/images/13.gif
Prussick
Cheers Stew - I want to correct Chris but couldnt find the pictures! :super:
Although it has to be said the Prusik isnt the only knot useful in this sense a taunt line would do just as well or even a midshipmans hitch, anything to tention the tarp.
Timber hitch works for securing one end of the ridge line to a tree while the other end needs a knot which will take up the tention - whatever knot you use this end make sure you add a slip for ease of removal.
Although it has to be said the Prusik isnt the only knot useful in this sense a taunt line would do just as well or even a midshipmans hitch, anything to tention the tarp.
Agreed that there are a number of different knots that would work, but for Chris' method, I don't think the taut line or midshipman's are appropriate either. He's not tensioning the tarp against the tree but against the line that he's strung between the trees.
It's an idea I like because once you've set it up once, you don't need to undo the prussicks again.
Thanks for the idea Chris!
:biggthump
Hmm, so you use the prussik knot on the ridge line one knot either side of the first and last loops?
Hmm, so you use the prussik knot on the ridge line one knot either side of the first and last loops?
That's what I interpreted Chris' description to mean and it seems to make sense.
Chris and I are using the same technique just different names - this might need expanding upon.
I think Chris is describing the same technique we teach at Bearclaw and I taught at woodlore too (and is still taught there I guess) - which seems to be the most generic one although as pointed out his hitch was the wrong knot for the job ie, as per Stews picture a timber hitch is used (as the name suggests) for tying to timber and in the timber hitches case is used in the lumber trade for pulling logs.
So back to the basha,
The ridge line is slung between two trees - ideally the evenk knot is tied one end and a tentioning knot the other to take up the slack. The basha or Hootchie is already hung from this by passing the ridge line through the central four of the 6 top loops. The end loops (at each end - and here is where me and chris differ as I leave these outside the ridge line to create a small gable) are attached with a prusik knot (a loop of approx 6") so once the ridge line is taunt the shelter sheet can be stretched in both directions to make it taunt also.
This done the guy lines are run out at angles which are alined with the corners of the tarp. Each guy line is pegged or tied off with a taunt line hitch and slip - once all four corners are tied the hitches are slid back to take up all the tention and thus pulling the sides of the basha taunt too.
Not the best picture but ......
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v342/bearclaw/course01003.jpg
Hope that made sense.
And easier - more thermally efficient style is .....
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v342/bearclaw/hootchie_015.jpg
Thanks for elaborating on that gary, that is the way i was shown to put one up at a course.
Hope that made sense.
Yep! Good description.
:-)
I think we were just getting a bit muddled before.
If weight isn't too big a deal, I like bungie cords for convenience. There's a brand about now that has no metal parts, just a fixed nylon loop one end and a loop closed with a fastex clip at the other - otherwise a tied loop of shockcord would be cheaper and lighter. Like Chris I thread the ridge line through all 3 centre loops on my tarp or the five loops along the edge before tying it off. In this pic, the trees were close and it was easy to snap the bungie around a tree.
http://www.bushcraftuk.net/photopost/data/512/80IMG_0817a.jpg
If it's further between trees, I have a couple of prusik / klemheist loops each with a small snaplink attached, these are really fast to fix around the ridge rope and the tarp and bungie go in between under tension.
Guys are tied off with a simple sliding knot.
This is a silnylon tarp from kathmandu trekking. It's a bit odd because it has an offcentre seam where two pieces of fabric are joined to make up the width. Seems OK :-)
Cheers
Squidders
08-09-2004, 20:57
This may sound like a stupid question (Coming from me, what else would you expect?!?)...
What's the reason for the ridge line running the full length? why not just tie the two ends to the tree and pull them tight? I tried this, in fair weather, and it works a treat, no small loops or bungies needed. I admit, it probably puts a little more stress on the basha but I can't see, other than hanging things off the line, any benefits of the normal way.
Could anyone enlighten me?
Cheers
Joe
C_Claycomb
08-09-2004, 21:11
Yes.....Chris named the wrong knot :roll: :doh: :rolmao:
Whether it is the "right" knot or not, I have been using Clove Hitches on my basha. My knot book talks about prusiks needing the main line to be twice the diameter of the line you are tying the knot in...whatever relevance that has :?:
As Gary rightly guessed, that was how they showed us when I was on the Woodlore course, though I thought that they used simpler hitches than the prusik. It was something that had had me puzzled for ages as it is a detail that does not show well in photos unless you are trying to show it specifically.
The ridgelines used by Woodlore are about 6mm, their reasoning was that if something fell off the tree that hefty ridgeline cord would offer some protection. Not entirely convinced myself. Anyway, I have been using regular paracord, so that isn't much help.
Having not experimented much with not having a ridgeline I couldn't say what the pros and cons might be, but would be interested in hearing them.
I have a tendency to use shock cord on the loops of my basha, this gives me a good tention pretty much all the time. Not everybody gets on with it, but it's an option.
It works tree - cord and then cord to shock/bungee cord, hope this helps :-)
hobbitboy
08-09-2004, 22:40
That makes sense now :o): :o): :o):
Cheers!
I had contemplated tying the end loops to the ridge line but sorta considered it cheating as I couldn't see any in the picture I used as reference!
The ridgelines used by Woodlore are about 6mm, their reasoning was that if something fell off the tree that hefty ridgeline cord would offer some protection. Not entirely convinced myself. Anyway, I have been using regular paracord, so that isn't much help.
Yeah, right! :roll: If it was polyester covered spectre line, maybe, possibly, but even then I seriously doubt it. If I was worried about something falling from the tree I wouldn't set up there, not rely on 6mm coard to somehow catch or deflect the object.
Good point Adi!
One thing you should always do is check the site where you intend to erected your shelter (any shelter!) for visible hazards, these could include things like dead over hanging branches, ants nests even water marks in areas of flash flooding ect.
If in doubt - move.
As for falling tree limbs, I have seen a tank barrel bent by a falling limb in a storm and if it will do that to a tank your 6mm nylon line, para cord or other wise, with its 15% stretch its going to help or stop much.
Paganwolf
09-09-2004, 12:09
Yes I agree the chances of it falling horizontal and bouncing off the ridge line is pretty remote unless your under a Bonsai tree! beech like shedding limbs when you least expect them to, always inspect bows/branches above where you string your basha you dont want to find out what its like to be a cocktail sausage at 3 in the morning :shock:
Yes I agree the chances of it falling horizontal and bouncing off the ridge line is pretty remote unless your under a Bonsai tree! beech like shedding limbs when you least expect them to, always inspect bows/branches above where you string your basha you dont want to find out what its like to be a cocktail sausage at 3 in the morning :shock:
Good point ... always be wary of beech trees shedding limbs and and also pines trees that can just snap.
Paganwolf
09-09-2004, 12:20
Oh and try to keep your guide lines as short as possible other wise you may trip or get garotted on the way to water the trees in the middle of the night :lol:
My knot book talks about prusiks needing the main line to be twice the diameter of the line you are tying the knot in...whatever relevance that has :?:
Hi Chris, what your book says is right.
As you know, Prusik, Klemheist and other similar knots loop around "fixed" rope, and slide easily easily along it when not under load, then lock tight when a load is applied along the direction of the fixed rope. One of their most valuable uses is for a climber who has fallen and is hanging from a rope to climb back up that rope. You can't do this hand over hand so you carry a couple of prusik loops ready made to give you a sliding clamp for your hands and feet.
If the prusik loops are made of cord with the same diameter as the fixed rope their tied around, they won't grip properly. They slide under load when they shouldn't. If you're climbing, they heat up and melt :yikes: To get them to grip, the cord used for the prusik has to be significantly thinner than the "fixed" rope. Half the diameter or less. Use 2 or 3mm prusik cord with a 5 or 6mm ridge cord. 5 or 6mm prusiks around a 10 or 11mm climbing rope.
Hope this makes sense of it. BTW here's the Kelmheist, an alternative to the prusik that some people find quicker to tie.
http://www.ozultimate.com/canyoning/knots/klemheist/klemheist.jpg
http://www.ozultimate.com/canyoning/knots/klemheist/
The loop in these demo photographs is made from cord that is much too thick - check out the words too because these are right.
Cheers, Alick
Hence why we use 7mm ridge lines and 3mm guys - although I didnt know the math of it all.
Having said that the Prusiks original task was for ascending ropes so maybe that is the important part - now it can be use the same as a taunt line hitch on a hootchie and as no one will climb it the breaking action doesnt need to be so sever.
Interesting thread. :super: