View Full Version : Billhook help..........
With all the talk of billhooks I wanted to try one for myself, I particularly like the idea of using traditional tools anyway and if they also happen to be old and well used all the better. I picked this one up on ebay for under a tenner and fitted a new Walnut handle (quite a tricky job, I found it more difficult than making knife scales). The convex bevel cleaned up really well and I have it polished to a mirror finish though it doesnt show up in the pic. It seems to be good steel and well tempered, no marks on the edge despite hacking away at knotty well seasoned Yew. Files skate off the surface.
I havent had chance to try it out extensively yet but I am finding it a little cumbersome to use compared with a hand axe, it doesnt seem to bite as well as my axes, I suspect this is due to the thicker blade, because of the weight distribution I dont seem to get the leverage I would with an axe, it feels heavy to use and reminds me of my steel shafted Estwing which Im not keen on because its centre of gravity is closer to my hand than a similar sized wooden shafted axe. This Billhook weighs in at 800g.
There appears to be a Government issue broadarrow on the blade though I doubt it would be army issue? Maybe just the company logo?
So....am I an incompetent user, do I have the wrong kind of Billhook, should I thin the edge down some more (this would be a big job), where am I going wrong? Maybe I just need to use it more, Ive just scored another on the bay for a fiver because it was misdescribed, (similar shape) couldnt resist it being a Brummy, from 1915 and marked "Martindale Crockadile Works, Birmingham"!
http://www.jasonbhall.freeserve.co.uk/billhook.jpg
http://www.jasonbhall.freeserve.co.uk/billhook_1.jpg
Jacks probably the best person around here to ask about billhooks; but from my limited experience I wouldn't necessarily use a billhook for all axe tasks. On the other hand there are some jobs (such as branch stripping) that it is eminantly suited for.
Nise handle btw, the whole thing looks very business-like!
I use one and find it easy but they're much better suited for going through medium thicknesses in one blow than chopping wood axe style. I bought mine for hedge laying and coppicing - it's nice for taking out staves but you'd be there all day bringing down a tree.
From personal experience I can say Wear Gloves! - I put mine through my left hand last year.
Realgar
Keith_Beef
07-09-2004, 16:12
Very nice. I have a kitchen knife made by the same manufacturer.
Your bill hook could well have been made for the Ministry, as you suspected by the broad arrow. Soldiers need all kinds of tools, not just weapons.
S&J Kitchin produced quite a lot of military tools and weapons.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=kitchin+sheffield+bla de&btnG=Search&hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&safe=off
Keith.
mr dazzler
07-09-2004, 16:23
I think you can get old hooks that were made for the railways as well (keeping tracks clear etc) Not sure what they stamped with though
Come to think of it, I've seen bill hooks with very long handles - what were they for? I can't imagine safety getting a good swing in if they were meant for high up branches.
Realgar
Come to think of it, I've seen bill hooks with very long handles - what were they for? I can't imagine safety getting a good swing in if they were meant for high up branches.
Realgar
I think they are intended for double handed use more like an axe. Short or long handled I can see these things being pretty devastating if they come into contact with flesh and bone and a glancing blow seems fairly easy to achieve. I cant see how gloves would offer much protection! With a short handled hook like mine that big lump of steel is that much closer to my flesh and bone :yikes:
Anyway....Ive thinned the handle down a fair bit since taking that photo and it now feels a lot more comfortable in my dainty hands, I shall persevere with it and see if it gets more comfortable to use with time, though I think a lighter version might suit me better.
Jason
mr dazzler
07-09-2004, 18:25
When I as about 5 or 6 and helping Daddy to trim a hedge, I came within an inch or so of turning him into Van Gogh (one ear) when I tried to swing a slashing hook.
I think the slashing (long handle) hook is used more with a slicing action not chopping like an axe.
I'd have a go at using it in the same way as I use a kukri
http://www.toratoratora.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=155&PN=1 this shows it well
I cant see how gloves would offer much protection!
They wouldn't. Its also very dangerous to use a hook while wearing gloves.... its an accident waiting to happen. Also you will loose the sensitvity as you feel your way through splitting hazel
Ed
mr dazzler
07-09-2004, 22:17
I also have seen some old anglo saxon drawings showing the tools used in agriculture through the seasons. The bill hooks (serpes) are used with a vertical upward cut as well as a downward cut. I think that is what the strange curved shape on the ends is for. Probably to prune high branches with an upwards cut, so they don't split badly off the tree. Thats my guess anyway! I use billhook to thin small (up to 1") branches with one slice. Any more than that I take an axe or saw. Very fascinating old pictures (and text). Descriptions of sickles, scythes, billhooks, sieves, axes, shovels, adzes, buckets, barrels, yokes, goads, rakes, etc all the equipment a saxon farmer would use, made of iron, leather and wood.
I would encourage you to keep practising Jason, after all no one acquires new skills overnight. :wink:
My French hook has an almost hollow ground slim blade wheras the "machine-mart" special has a very stubby angle and shoulder. Guess which cuts better?
OK perhaps I should re-shape it etc, but the French hook is just older and better, and I'll sayve sevrull arze on't grarnder lark yer noe
MR D :wave:
mr dazzler
07-09-2004, 22:21
Oh and I have used gloves with hook and axe, with no danger at all-but they're special kevlar and neoprene ones you use to get a mega grip on glass, divers use them as well. They stick to whatever you're holding, even if its wet (well it would be under water wouldn't it!! :roll:
Its also very dangerous to use a hook while wearing gloves.... its an accident waiting to happen. Also you will loose the sensitvity as you feel your way through splitting hazel
Ed
I keep a hefty glove on the hand that's gripping the wood and keep the hand holding the blade bare if I'm doing any chopping with it, it might not stop a full blow but it's some help. For splitting and 'minor' stuff I don't bother. Having put the tip of one of those things between two of my fingers I don't take chances - it was only luck I missed all the tendons. The odd thing is it didn't hurt - not until the next day when I woke up an interesting shade of red and with a temperature.
Realgar
If your clearing ground keep your legs well out of the way of a hook.
I put a nice 1 1/2 in gash down to the bone just with a gentle swing of mine (magic superglue fixe it OK) - luckily I've got very pointy shins that deflected the blow
Keith_Beef
08-09-2004, 14:33
Come to think of it, I've seen bill hooks with very long handles - what were they for? I can't imagine safety getting a good swing in if they were meant for high up branches.
Realgar
I'm making up a bill hook with a long handle for my cousin's husband, for use in the garden. I wouldn't be worried about it. It's useful fro lopping small branches about seven feet up a tree.
So long as you get into the habit of using a stroke that always takes the blade away from you, especially if it misses, then there's very little danger of injury. Always use an easy stroke, avoid jerky movements, and stop when you're tired.
Keith.
I'll be watching this thread with interest as I just bought my first billhook at the weekend! :o): Jack showed me several times, but I've already forgotten how to hold it and cut with it ... :roll: :?: :oops:
(Any chance of you making an instructional video Jack??? :-D :-D :-D)
I'm still thinking about the axe versus billhook conundrum - but was pretty nearly convinced by talking with "billhook guru" Jack at the Wilderness Gathering (thanks for that, Jack, it was very interesting).
Advice pls - what would be the best general purpose billhook design for a bushcraft beginner?
Ted W
For comparison here it is with some of my small axes, yeah two of them need new shafts, theyre a good few years old!
Now this hook has 10" of shaving sharp edge, I want to use it for Bushcraft so that means close quarters work shaping out spoons, splitting kindling or whatever, thats a lot of edge to get into trouble with! It also weighs nearly twice as much as my lightest axe, so I'm not likely to carry it if I'm walking a long way with a big pack. All that weight in the hand with no lever to swing it is always going to require a greater level of effort/energy/strength than an axe unless Im mistaken? And in my inexperienced hands the hook seems to get in the way and I find myself using the straight part of the edge closer to the handle for chopping and splitting, again reducing any effective leverage and increasing the effort required.
So.... isnt the Billhook best kept for working with green hazel and the like?
I would love someone with more experience than me to explain the pros and cons of the hook compared with an axe.
Incidentally, Im not a small bloke but I do find the Hook a hefty lump of steel to swing about, it creates a whole new set of blisters ;)
http://www.jasonbhall.freeserve.co.uk/axes.jpg
Jason
it creates a whole new set of blisters
Doesn't it just...... try a weekend of hurdle making ;-)
So.... isnt the Billhook best kept for working with green hazel and the like?
Remember all hook patterns are made differently, depending on who made it and for what purpose. Thst means different blade length, nose, balance, and a whole host of other things. You may find you have to hunt around for a hook that suits you better.
:-)
Ed
mr dazzler
08-09-2004, 19:57
I don't make hurdles out of hazel, and as I said before the hook serves me for small green branches up to about 1" diam. If I practiced more maybe I could do more bigger cuts with it. My French hook is as sharp as my opinel knife, I could shave with either (well at a push-the hook would be a little ungainly!!) I reckon some accidents happen due to blunt edges. Good advice about stopping if your tired or not used to a lot of manual work (no shame in that its common sense) I always check where I stand if its clear and no loose branches I could get deflected by; I always cut away from me even a backhand type cut sometimes. I like to visualise the branch already cut just as I am about to make contact. As was said, you got a long exposed cutting edge but thats the hooks virtue, it slices as much as chops through.
Some hooks (eg Yorkshire) were built very sturdy with longer handle used for hedge laying. Sussex one was heavy built too. Lighter curved hooks better suited for riving hazel rods. (pulling the beak of the hook towards you through the green rods and guiding the split, levering like with a froe). There must have been as many pattern variations as there were villages at one time, evolved because of particular usages in one locality.
They still cut fagots (thin bundles of branches for traditional bread ovens), and fire kindling using a (serp) in France, and I think they still prune vines there with a slightly smaller version of a curved billhook. You can still get a variety of hook types in the supermarkets there (but the old ones are better)
MR D :wink:
Couple of nice hooks Jas and not a bad find.
Haven’t come across Kitchin before but perhaps the clue is the fact that it is Government issue and perhaps it was a one of order. This would be of interest to a collector. You aren’t doing anything wrong when you are using the hook, it is just the fact that you are using it for the wrong job.
The shape and the weight of the hook is design for snedding ( trimming of branches) up the sides of timber. The broad blade is designed to give you maximum power at the point where you will be cutting and that is about 1” – 2” back from the nose. These hooks are only really any good for that job and believe, you can cut through some wood with them but as you have found out, they aren’t any good for leverage work.
The Martindale that you have is also a rare hook, this company, like all good companies, was founded in the 1800’s and was based in the midlands. You have to be careful with the numbers on hooks as this quite often interpreted as the year of manufacturer, when in fact it is the stock/model number.
With regards to the Hook v Axe debate, I will let their owners speak for themselves, but in my opinion, the axe is the wrong tool for bushcraft. I believe that someone has picked up an axe and everyone else has followed without giving much thought to the functionality of an axe. An axe is design for a couple of tasks, felling timber, not wood and for splitting a log in half, period. What seems to be happening is that the bushcraft world is trying to get the axe to fit every purpose, but it won’t, because it can’t All you have to do, is look at any woodsmen tools. They may own an axe, but don’t know where it is. I can guarantee you that they will have at least 4 hooks and they know exactly where there are, they are right next to them. These humble, under rated tools have been the backbone of our ancient woodlands for thousands of years.
People are starting to see where the hook comes into play in bushcraft world and they are out selling all axes. I believe the reason for this is because people have thought that axe is the ‘ must have tool’ if you are a ‘bushcrafter’ but have soon realised that 9 times out of ten, it is a pain.
A hook becomes a part of you. Over the years, the handle mould into your hands and that is why woodsmen cuss and moan if they have to use someone else’s hook as it feel alien in the hand. I have seen grown men reduced to tears when they realise that their hooks have been stolen.
The axe is a fantastic tool for it’s job, but it is best left doing the job it was designed for. Wouldn’t you agree?
mr dazzler
08-09-2004, 22:30
Interesting to read your comments Jack
I expect you've seen the old billhooks site:-
http://www.billhooks.co.uk
I've seen most of the listed French patterns in France-either in boot sales or just hanging around peoples farms, and even still for sale new in farm supply shops and supermarkets. I wonder what influence the French may have had if any on the native English hook stlyes after they colonised us in 1066? :?: :wink:
I think they dug up some roman hooks and I think they pretty much the same as more recent ones.
I always think its sad when you go to some sale and see these great old tools that someone once paid out good money for and depended on for there livelihood, thrown in a old box. But its great to restore 'em to use again. :wink:
MR D :wave:
Roving Rich
08-09-2004, 23:04
the Billhook is a great tool for the Bushcrafter. I find it alot more useable for my bushcraft tasks than an Axe. For cleaving wood it is unrivalled. That means i can split a curved piece of wood for a spoon. With the aid of a block to chop on, you can overhang the hook or beak over one edge and chop finely. It is my prefered method for cleaving, then thinning a base board for the bow drill,(very difficult with an Axe !) aswell as putting a point on the spindle.
Another tecnique is choping into the side of a branch at 45 degrees, then prising it open along the grain, again impossible with an Axe. This is a basic skill of the hurdle maker, that Jack makes look far to easy.
I have pleached tress upto about 5 inches diameter in hedge laying with a hook, so it can fell small stuff.
I have also used a sharp hook as a draw knife, slicing fine ribbons off.
I have always been taught NEVER to wear gloves when using a billhook or axe, as the implement can slip from your hand. Jack insists that bare handed the woodsman can feel the grain and sap in the wood he is handling.
I take my hat off to him :notworthy
The billhooks major drawback IMO is its weight when carried. Though I know Jacks favoured hook and the ones he sells are about half the weight of my hedging hooks so may be OK.
I can only suggest you try one for yourselves and get the feel of em
Cheers
Rich
Terriffic, thanks Jack. That makes perfect sense and thats exactly what I wanted to know. The broadarrow marked hook is significantly thicker at the tip which also backs up what youre saying.
I dont have the Martindale yet, waiting anxiously for delivery :) I'll post some pics when it arrives.
Looks like I'll have to collect a few of them so that I can try the different weights and shapes ;)
Thanks for the tips on using the hook Rich, I did notice the hook makes a great draw knife!
Jason
I did notice the hook makes a great draw knife!
...and froe, and spade, ....pancake flipper..... the list goes on ;-)
Ed
My 2nd hook arrived today :) Its in a sorry state but will clean up nicely. Most interestingly it appears to be a laminated construction of 3 layers something like Trond's Scandi's and I think its a little lighter than the first one! Presumably iron or mild steel outer with a carbon steel core. The edge is also thinner though this may just be the result of years of clumsy sharpening.
Jason
Ed if youre using a hook as a spade do you use the spine to dig with? I would be loathe to use a painstakingly honed edge in soil?
Jason
mr dazzler
09-09-2004, 11:59
Yes I'd agree; youd have to be desperate to use your hook that way; wouldn't it be easier to use a spade?? :wink:
If you use it to cook (pancake) won't the steel get ruined?? :?:
wouldn't it be easier to use a pan?? :wink:
If you use it to cook (pancake) won't the steel get ruined??
wouldn't it be easier to use a pan??
I don't cook on it, just use it as a utensil for flipping pancakes (gb mini does a good job of that too)
Ed if youre using a hook as a spade do you use the spine to dig with? I would be loathe to use a painstakingly honed edge in soil?
Yep, the rounded bit of the spine NOT the edge.... only to dig a small fire pit a few inches deep...... I too would be loathe to use a painstakingly honed edge.... thats why I don't.... My hook is sharp enough for the job, nothing more. It gets all the rough jobs, it get heavy use, it gets abused, but it stands up to it all..... all in all, a wonderful general woodsmans tool that has never let me down.
:-)
Ed
Most interestingly it appears to be a laminated construction of 3 layers
Why do you think this? If there is a line running down the edge, you may find that it is a peice of tool steel welded to the edge of a mild steel body.... many foundries did this to get more hooks per tool steel which is/was expensive compared to mild steel ;-) Have you got any pics?
Welcome to your new addiction of billhook collecting :wave:
:-)
Ed
Why do you think this? If there is a line running down the edge, you may find that it is a peice of tool steel welded to the edge of a mild steel body.... many foundries did this to get more hooks per tool steel which is/was expensive compared to mild steel ;-) Have you got any pics?
Welcome to your new addiction of billhook collecting :wave:
:-)
Ed
Ha! Dont tell SWMBO she already thinks I have too many addictions!
I'll sort some pics later, though dont know if I'll be able to show the laminations. Its definately not a carbon steel edge to a mild steel body though I know what you mean. I can clearly see three layers at the spine running all the way to the start of the bevel, an outer layer each side of a central slab. It would be an expensive and complicated way to make a simple billhook, interesting.....
I'll have more time to look at it later, I could be wrong, will all become clear once I have chance to start cleaning it up :)
Jack, have you ever seen this in a billhook?
J
Ok, Ive sussed it, had a proper look in daylight, still interesting but not what I thought. Its a one piece sandwich and edge (V shape) of high carb steel with a mild steel filling slipped in through a slit at the spine, a cost saving exercise!!! I wonder if its safe to grind that back edge flat, I dont want to delaminate it? Hope you can see it in the pics...
http://www.jasonbhall.freeserve.co.uk/bills.jpg
http://www.jasonbhall.freeserve.co.uk/spine.jpg
http://www.jasonbhall.freeserve.co.uk/stamp.jpg
ummm... very weird.... never seen that before.....
Ed
mr dazzler
09-09-2004, 22:30
I still stick by my preference to wear kevlar/neoprene gloves. I've never cut myself at all (or anyone else), or had any slippages. :wink:
One thought Rich; you mentioned about letting the beak overhang the chopping block to fine-cut etc. To me that defeats the purpose of using the hook on a block (although as you know you can get some hooks with straight edge one side and curved beak the other) BUT I was thinking of the stock knives the cloggers use that are fixed at one end to get leverage for precision cutting. Maybe it could be possible to fix a loop of some sort (hazel withery or some cord??) that would fit over the top of a regular hook and hold it firm so you could manouver the blade in a similar sort of way, with the beak resting on the chopping block? Just a thought.
I can't agree with you Jack about axes only good for felling trees and splitting them in 1/2. I know you selling hooks and would like to see everyone use them, :wink: ,but I think too often folk think of an axe as a chopping tool only, when it can be an excellent slicing tool also. I mean the scandinavian boat builders used axe to scarf and shape oke planks. Medaevial carpenters used broad axes to slyce beams into "square", timber framers sometimes use axes to rough out tenons, you can use an axe to cut mortices, plenty of folk carve sculpture or boles with axes. Its not rocket science to learn how to use an axe with your hand around the blade the way a joiner holds a saw. It acts more like a plane and it is astonishing what you can do, including acurate cross cuts. Some axe's even have a little cut out space to get your hand nearer to the axe head.You should be able to shape a fire drilling base in about 30 seconds or even less. Its only a little flat board isnt it? or am I missing something? :wink:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure Len Tabor in his book about woodland crafts recomends a nug axe (looks like a morticeing axe) to make hurdles, His preference too I reckon. Good luck with your restoration Jason. Those are both nice looking tools. :wink:
MR D :wave:
Gotta agree with Mr D on this one - it is possible, and surprisingly easy, to do fine woodworking with an axe
I've got a Roselli all-around axe:
http://boaty.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/smaller-axe.jpg
(Felt a bit odd, being the only non-Gransfor owning person at the BCUK meetup :o):)
I made these scoopy-things, just with the axe and a crook-knife:
http://boaty.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/small-scoops.jpg
Haven't use a 'hook for 20 years, and then it wasn't for anything fine, so can't comment on what I could do with one (but if Jack wants to send me one so I can find out :roll: :o):)
chopping tool only, when it can be an excellent slicing tool also. I mean the scandinavian boat builders used axe to scarf and shape oke planks. Medaevial carpenters used broad axes to slyce beams into "square", timber framers sometimes use axes to rough out tenons, you can use an axe to cut mortices, plenty of folk carve sculpture or boles with axes. Its not rocket science to learn how to use an axe with your hand around the blade the way a joiner holds a saw. It acts more like a plane and it is astonishing what you can do, including acurate cross cuts. Some axe's even have a little cut out space to get your hand nearer to the axe head.You should be able to shape a fire drilling base in about 30 seconds or even less. Its only a little flat board isnt it? or am I missing something? :wink:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure Len Tabor in his book about woodland crafts recomends a nug axe (looks like a morticeing axe) to make hurdles, His preference too I reckon. Good luck with your restoration Jason. Those are both nice looking tools. :wink:
MR D :wave:
MR D
I see the point that you are making and yes we do sell billhooks but if you take a closer look you will also see that we carry some well known axes as well, so I am not to concerned with who buys what. If I had my ‘Woodland Organics’ hat on then I would be saying buy axes, as they pretty much sell themselves. I am speaking with my ‘Jack Beckett’ hat on and talking from a woodsman’s point of view and experience.
Good point you made about axes being used by the highly skilled shipwrights and rightly so, however these are specialist trades and use tools that are really only strictly relevant to their trade. In my opinion, the most skilled worker of wood, is the wheelwright, his knowledge of wood and the tools used is outrageous but again the axes he uses are for his trade.
The point I am making is the fact the axe used by bushcrafters isn’t the best tool for the job. Having squared many logs with a broad axe I can safely say that the broad axe is only useful for hewing, period., the side axe is only good for side axe work etc etc. They are as many axe patterns, as there are hook patterns. If you take the Small Forest Axe for example, there is nothing ‘small’ about it, it is one hell of an axe. It has a 19” handle and over 3” inch face. I find that slightly over kill for normal bushcraft activities when the hook will do.
If I may, I will correct you, on the use of a nugging axe in hurdle making. I use a nugging axe everyday when hurdle making. There is also several other names for it as well and they are a knobby axe or a knobbing axe.
Actually, that aren’t axes at all, in fact they are all billhooks and the term I use is a snedding hook, they are all designed to remove the ends of your weave when you have finished your hurdle. My snedding hook is a least 107 years old.
mr dazzler
10-09-2004, 21:01
Thanks for your comments Jack
I dont wish to appear nit picky, but Mr Tabors nug axe was an axe-not a hook. Not unlike a viking axe with those extended bits that come down the sides of the haft, same width at back and bit. At the end of the day though, if its to trim hazel axe hook or saw what ever suits you is best. :wink:
One omission I felt was made by Mike Abott in his green woodworking book was no real mention of hooks. That book got me going with green wood, maybe if there'd been advise about hooks in it I'd use them more than I do now.
I used axes to carve several chair seats, finish with scorp etc. My drawknife, scorp, inshave were made for me by Brian Russell-one of the best smiths in the country.
What works best for each individual has to be best for them, especially if it develops their confidence. I just think to say an axe is't best tool, or a 'oook is't best tool is like saying fly fishing is't best way to fish, or flint and steel is't best way to start fire etc etc. :roll:
Touche, yes you do sell axes as well, and it is good to see a site where the person sellin't oooks uses 'em isselfe. :wink:
I got me a place in Normandy, and next year I'm acquiring some open barren land behind which I going to develop into a small wood/orchard type thing. A row of poplar or alder at'farr ennd, some ash (naturally) for tool handles, and of course apples and pears. Hoo Hoo as Homer Simpson says. I been talking to some locals (they know their wood, and were amazed I knew a bit too especially French names)and would get young trees locally, get advice about spacings etc. Is there any tips you could offer?? I will use my (French) hook to copice:wink: Mind I like the look of some of your'n on't webpages speshly that spar hook, never know few spare £££s.
Hey I expect you already know, but its good to see the timber harvesting in Normandy. It seems every coppiced stool as been watched closely, nothing random, they still keep it going (but increasingly with chainsaws not hooks). Most if not all old or retired farmers have there serpe up on a nail in there barne. Stacks of log for fires, bloody great okes and beeches, chestnut, elm etc You see piles of 8x8 12x12 oke beemes some fresh green others that were drying longer darkening brown, 2" bordes that have been drying years Burr ElmThey sned out kindling and "fagots" with a serpe. Wood to folk there is more than just B&Q softwood ply or mdf.
Good luck with your business and website etc
all the best
MR D :wink: :wave:
mr dazzler
10-09-2004, 22:51
Nice looking axe Boaty-I don't think I've seen them make afore. Big £££s??
I've never used an ullu knife (is it)-the lap or inuit tool; but I imagine it being similar inne yoose to a bearded axe like your'n, with the weight and control of yore hannde directly ovver't cuttin edge, plus-can you hook't haft under't arm for extra leverage?? Have you ever made boles orr platteres? :wink:
MR D :wave:
PS Stayed in a farm house in Normandy once and they had a cracking little hatchet to fix kindling etc-frankly itte wasse wasting away. Itte was bearded like yours, broad thin blade (yours looks thicker) I "sharpened" it a bit only with a round chainsaw axe (all there was) and it was potentially a great tool but they wouldn't sell :roll: :wink: :wink:
Please excuse my ocasionnel diversion into dialect spelling, can't 'elp it I love me accent me! :roll:
mr dazzler
10-09-2004, 23:07
Hi again Boaty,
I expect you've read the review of your axe on outdoors-magazine.com?
Reviewer was v. impressed. He preferred it to GB small forest axe :wink:
Brynglas
10-09-2004, 23:12
With regards to the Hook v Axe debate, I will let their owners speak for themselves, but in my opinion, the axe is the wrong tool for bushcraft. I believe that someone has picked up an axe and everyone else has followed without giving much thought to the functionality of an axe. An axe is design for a couple of tasks, felling timber, not wood and for splitting a log in half, period. What seems to be happening is that the bushcraft world is trying to get the axe to fit every purpose, but it won’t, because it can’t All you have to do, is look at any woodsmen tools. They may own an axe, but don’t know where it is. I can guarantee you that they will have at least 4 hooks and they know exactly where there are, they are right next to them. These humble, under rated tools have been the backbone of our ancient woodlands for thousands of years.
People are starting to see where the hook comes into play in bushcraft world and they are out selling all axes. I believe the reason for this is because people have thought that axe is the ‘ must have tool’ if you are a ‘bushcrafter’ but have soon realised that 9 times out of ten, it is a pain.
A hook becomes a part of you. Over the years, the handle mould into your hands and that is why woodsmen cuss and moan if they have to use someone else’s hook as it feel alien in the hand. I have seen grown men reduced to tears when they realise that their hooks have been stolen.
The axe is a fantastic tool for it’s job, but it is best left doing the job it was designed for. Wouldn’t you agree?
here, here, Jack. I totally agree with you on this. I own a small woodland which keeps me in firewood, walking sticks and wildlife and although I own two axes the tool that I always take out with me is my Llandeilo pattern hook, this serves me for almost all of my needs in the woods and anything that's too big for the hook gets the chainsaw treatment. I have a couple of other patterns of hook but the Llandeilo is my preference. About the only use that I put my axes to is log splitting.
Any chance of a pic Bryn?
Ive almost finished restoring the Crocodile (not spelled crockadile as the seller thought) Works hook and I have to say the difference between it and the first one is amazing. Weight distribution is slightly different but I think its mostly down to the thinner edge, this one cuts through wood greedily and consequently seems much easier to use dont have to swing it so hard, it does all the work:)
Jason
Great to see that we have some other woodland tools fans on here!
I have a picture of a woodland tool that is quite rare and I am trying to post it on this thread but I don't know how to do so........can any one help?!!
Jack
If you want to send the pic to me I dont mind posting it.
Jason@jasonbhall.freeserve.co. uk
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v375/jack196736/P1010037.jpg
Well there it is!............maybe a bit to big, will have to learn how to resize!
Thanks for your help Stew! :biggthump
Can anybody tell me what it is called, what it is used for and how much I had to pay for it :yikes:
Looks like a mattock of some sort.... but far too small for a digging or mining ....Is it a thatching tool? ... what size is it?
Ed
mr dazzler
11-09-2004, 12:36
twwbill/twyvill-type of mortise axe
50p
mr dazzler
11-09-2004, 12:40
(cutting mortises for hurdles)
They still use a similar one to cut house frame mortices but its bigger-looks like a 2" chisel on a bazooka :wink:
Ah... I think you are right... a Twybill
Ed
Ive finished the 2nd one, now I just need to use them! Wouldnt normally choose to polish so much of the forge marks off but this one needed more drastic treatment! Trying a handle with a palm swell but will probably end up thinning it down again.
Which are considered better, Jack, hooks with tangs or hooks with sockets?
http://www.jasonbhall.freeserve.co.uk/hooks.jpg
mr dazzler
11-09-2004, 21:38
How d'yer mekk yer 'andles Jason??
Do you shape/carve it first then fit to blade, or shape after fitting (like I've seen some knifemakers do)??
My best hook is tanged (tang about 6 1/2" long) without its ash handle (which I turned out of ash on a pole lathe 12 years ago - was just waiting for the right blade to go with it), it looks like an archaeic museum piece
Do you mean socketed like a socket mortice chisel or slick?
I've never dissected many hooks (only 1 in fact), and Jack will know better, but I suspect even chisel-type-socketed hooks will still have a tang, to take the sideways stresses, although It looks to me the heavy (eg Yarksher) hooks are assembled like a shuvvel with the haft running into a tube like socket, with 2 or 3 rivets to hold it together. That type of construction reminds me of the anglo-saxon and earlier iron tools where hooks and axes were forged out of a flat sheet, with the socket formed by the metal being bent over; you see it in medaieval shovels, peat shovels etc, even a modern coal shovel.
Anyway you a fast worker-that newest hoook looked "a bit worse for wear" only a few days ago :wink:
Mr D
I find it easier to drill first, fit the blank loosely then take them off and shape them, fix them securely and finish off. I used the first hook as a draw knife to rough out the handle for the 2nd hook :) Both of those were very tight fits, fingers crossed they don't split anytime soon!
By socketed I meant this:
http://www.jasonbhall.freeserve.co.uk/hook.jpg
Quite like the look of this one ;), Ive also seen the type you mentioned formed from rolled sheet like a shovel with an open seam.
So...you got any black country hooks ;)
mr dazzler
12-09-2004, 14:21
I like the look of't two edged one in't pic 'an all-is that a "Black country" one?? Are they ones from shropshire or birmingham or somewhere? I reckon a socket like that'd be strong enough without a tang inside't handle.
I wonder exactly how the 2 edge ones were used; Possibly keep the curved hook side razor sharp and short straight section deliberately blunt for splitting stock? (easier to rive with a blunt edge) But then youd ruin't sharp edge driving with a mell or beetle. C'mon Jack help us out here :wink:
Last night I had a look at an Italienn website of a billhook foundry:- Leonelli Cav Lanfranco & snc.
They still make an unbelievable range of hooks probably hundreds; there must have been 30 or 40 variations of't starle showne in yower pictyerr. Must still be a demand for 'em in Itterley to still make 'em.
When you think about it some one far back in our ancestry discovered if a cutting edge was curved you get more cutting action for less movement of your hand than if it was straight.
When I fit an 'andle, I mekk it first, then small pilot hole (yes I've had my share of off centre efforts! :roll: ) then small chisel to shape't mortice, steady away bit by bit, plenty test fits, then degrease metal, arldite, tap home voila (I always add metal ferrule made from old cymbal stand as well)
All the best
MR D :wave: :wink:
mr dazzler
12-09-2004, 20:43
Oh I also meant to mention Jason
Next time I fit a tanged blade to a wood handle I going to try a small pilot hole for direction as I normally would, then burn the mortice with a length of scrap mild bar ground to same shape as the tang (but a little slimmer)
MR D :wink:
I just use a few different size bits down the pilot hole to give me a taper. I did think about welding a thread onto the end of the tang though, rather than riveting the tang over a washer. If you drill your hole first it doesnt matter if it runs off centre and no risk of ruining all the work youve put into shaping it.
I square up the opening with a file. The hook with the straight edge on the back is a Staffordshire pattern I think by Yates'
How do you carry yours? Ive been thinking of making a sheath.
You know, the more I handle these hooks the more I like em, who needs an expensive knife when you can get a kilo of forged steel for less than a tenner :) not to mention all the history we're inheriting, fascinating to wonder how many hands thyve passed through over the years and where they mightve been used.
Jason
mr dazzler
13-09-2004, 07:20
I wasn't very clear with't description.
I think I'll burn the mortice in (the scrap bar would be an exact replica of the actual tang) then scrap tthe replica. But now you mention it, youd have a way to get the wood handle on & off easily welding a thread section on.
Im not really a fan of burning tangs in and Im not sure it would be successful in any of the denser woods, I know its traditionally used by some makers for stick tanged knives in stag and similar. Also, you have the extra work of making a copy of the tang, if you were forging your own blade you could use the actual tang before heat treating, in which case it could save some work.
But then Ive never tried and it cant hurt to have a go.
Best
J
Nice looking axe Boaty-I don't think I've seen them make afore. Big £££s??
I've never used an ullu knife (is it)-the lap or inuit tool; but I imagine it being similar inne yoose to a bearded axe like your'n, with the weight and control of yore hannde directly ovver't cuttin edge, plus-can you hook't haft under't arm for extra leverage?? Have you ever made boles orr platteres? :wink:
MR D :wave:
Not so expensive - comparable in cost to a Gransfor
But its a bit short to be tucking the helve under the arm - it's not quite 18" long all told
The head is quite thick - this little axe splits really well!
http://boaty.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/small-head.jpg
It's not quite flat ground - very slightly hollow, as you can see from where its shiny after I sharpened it on a flat stone
http://boaty.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/small-hollow.jpg
Hmmm, bowls and platters... I feel a new project coming on! Just need to find some nice bits of wood - cheers Mr D!
Boaty,
waht wood do you want - i'm just down the road and have plenty of "logs" lieing around - how green dow you want them?
The a very large oak branch (well 1/2 tree) tha got blown down earier this year or the is some ash and beach around.
Ahh EdS, I'm really embarrassed that I haven't managed to get round to meeting up with you!
I'll check with the Social Secretary (SWMBO!) and pm you about some possible times/dates
Hey, haven't you got a Gransfors and a billhook? Would be interesting to compare these with the Roselli, and maybe my kukri too...
sounds cool.
I'm sure I can get a pass for an evening.
I wonder if thered be any interest in a passaround? I'd be prepared to donate a hook, on condition it comes back without any major abuse or dings to the tip :roll: its just under a fiver to ship registered which I would insist on. First 20 names? Just a thought.
Jason
Well, this thread has had over 1,000 views, so I reckon there might be some interest!!!
I certainly would like a look and a (careful!) play! Many thanks!
Well, this thread has had over 1,000 views, so I reckon there might be some interest!!!
I certainly would like a look and a (careful!) play! Many thanks!
Right, youre on! 19 places left, I'll take the next 19 names that express an interest on the end of this thread, let me have your email ad's by Pm if you prefer and I'll sort out the details. If we say 3 days each do you think that will be long enough to have a play?
Jason
I'll start a new thread later today in Edged Tools for the passaround, the rules will be similar to those used on British Blades but I need to check with them before I start copying anything across.
If only a few people are interested I'll probably extend the time that you can keep the hook but I dont want to lose it for 6 months!
Jason