axe and a bench grinder, is it a no no [Archive]

mr dazzler

01-09-2004, 20:20

PW's advice spot on.
I would add if you do use a grinder (you can safely grind with a carborundum grinding wheel) LIGHTLY is the operative word. Also invest in a wheel dresser (diamond point or western spur revolving type) which keeps the wheel true round and removes clogged particles. Most people try to grind on wonky clogged up wheels that need pressure to cut, so causing the build up of heat that WILL ruin your steel blade's. I have safely ground dozens of plane irons, chisels (even delicate ones) axe's adzes etc and have never burnt any. Keep a pot or jar of cool clean water right next to your grinder and dip-cool after every 1 or 2 passes, dab dry with old towel. Check very often using your palm to test temp. And don't rush.
If I had the £££'s I'd get the tormek wet wheel (quieter than carborundum)but well you know how it is.
When you come to re-haft your axe I would suggest using air-dried cleft ash (not a ready made from a shop) Cleft is split out the log not sawn so it follows grain instead of crossing it and is stronger. There are sites that show you exactly how, basically a lot of patient work with spokeshave, knife, files to fit haft TAP (tightly as possible), couple of oak wedges voila.
Oh and don't get fooled by that daft notion of slingin the axe in the woodburner to burn the old wood remains out-that will definately ruin it.

Good luck with your axe Andy whatever method you eventually use; nice to see a fellow scavenger at work!! :wink: :wink: :wink: :wave:

mr dazzler

01-09-2004, 21:02

Quick quick search turned this up Andy-might help
http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/gsa
Mr D :wave:

Simon

01-09-2004, 21:49

I'll be blunt here (pun intended :nana: ) ... nothing wrong with using a grinder as long as you are aware of the heat it will cause ... keep a bucket of water handy ... and dip in the bucket on every pass ... if you are careful ......... you won't take the edge any where near it's temper mark ...... Mr Mears is Wrong :yikes: :wink:

ESpy

01-09-2004, 21:55

Mr Mears is Wrong :yikes: :wink:

Burn the heretic! :o):

I wouldn't advocate getting your practice in on a good axe, let's put it like that...

Tantalus

01-09-2004, 22:14

lol @ heretics peter

yeah i did say my answer was the simple answer......

i agree with ya, there are better (if a little slower) ways for a "one off" axe sharpening

too easy to mess it up on a grinder

Tant

Simon

01-09-2004, 22:24

best way to sharpen an axe with a damaged edge is on the bench grinder ... unless you've got a spare weekend

Tantalus

01-09-2004, 22:38

heck yeah of course bushcrafters have spare weekends

nothin nicer than sitting next the fire sharpening or whittling while waiting for the kettle

isnt that what its all about??:cold2:

Tant

mr dazzler

01-09-2004, 22:42

At the end of the day you get best result from method you are most familiar with and confident with. Pro's and con's with both methods. Like with everything it comes down to practise, and looking closely at what your doing. The lens idea helped me enormously to get an even better edge than I was aceiving before. Carelessness with any shaping method could be disastrous. :shock:
Mr D :wave: :wink: :wink:

tenbears10

01-09-2004, 23:33

PW's advice spot on.

When you come to re-haft your axe I would suggest using air-dried cleft ash (not a ready made from a shop) Cleft is split out the log not sawn so it follows grain instead of crossing it and is stronger. There are sites that show you exactly how, basically a lot of patient work with spokeshave, knife, files to fit haft TAP (tightly as possible), couple of oak wedges voila.
Oh and don't get fooled by that daft notion of slingin the axe in the woodburner to burn the old wood remains out-that will definately ruin it.

Kochanski's bushcraft book goes into depth on the subject of re-hafting as well. Makes interesting reading. I think he would approve of your method Mr D :-)

Bill

Simon

01-09-2004, 23:38

At the end of the day you get best result from method you are most familiar with and confident with. :

A man's gotta know his limitations ;)
http://www.norcalmovies.com/DirtyHarry/dh12.jpg

Tantalus

01-09-2004, 23:49

simon (and others) no offense intended

i just find hand sharpening like boot polishing or wood sanding, quite relaxing in a "switched off and just wait for the results to appear" kinda way

Tant

OldJimbo

02-09-2004, 04:43

An axe head can be ground with either a bench grinder or an angle grinder with sanding pads - but like most things in life it takes some considerable experience not to wreck things - including oneself.
A better method to get a consistent result as well as having a lot less chance of wrecking everything is to use a portable belt sander with a new belt and fairly coarse grit. You can polish up by hand. If it's at all possible to beg borrow rent a belt grinder then go that route. Just make sure that the axe head is SECURELY clamped to something solid.
A word of caution if you get to use someone's woodworking bench belt grinder is to know that sparks and wood dust make for some incredible explosions and flare ups - trust me on that one... A worse situation was someone who ground aluminium then rusty metal. The resulting aluminium powder and rust (thermite) was sparked and burned down his home. So if your woodworking buddy goes into fits when you ask to use his belt grinder - it's not personal...

Simon

02-09-2004, 09:06

Tant . no offense taken and none intended either ... I hand finish 95% of my work after heat treating ..... and I like to just switch off and get in to the rythm :wink: . for an axe head . the body of steel is greater and will take a lot of work to get it over temper as the body will absorb the heat to an extent ... the temper of the steel is likely above 200 degrees C

if it's really damaged . as the one at the beginning of the thread was ... you'll be a month of Sundays doing that by hand

2 tips for grinding .. if it's too uncomfortable to touch the side . it's too hot, Dunk ... the temper is over 200 .. you'll find it's too hot to touch at around 60 - 80 .. way off the temper.

also keeping the blade wet .. when the water begins to boil off the edge . get it wet again, Dunk . water boils at 100 ... blade is tempered over 200

follow those 2 rules and you won't even come close to damaging the temper

good safety advice from Jimbo
especially the aluminium and iron dust mix
http://www.eh.doe.gov/ll/lldb/detail.CFM?Lessons__Identifier Intern=2001%2DRL%2DHNF%2D0036

the wood and steel isn't as much of a problem unless you've got an extraction system attached to a belt sander for wood and someone decides to grind metal on it .. Imagine airborne dust within an enclosed chamber being introduced to a spark .. big bang

Andy

02-09-2004, 09:16

there is also a belt sander. I'm not sure it's got a motor in it though. I was told that my late grandfather made the sander himself along with the milling machine. There is also a lathe (granvil senior) drill press and all sorts of other goodies. I was too young to be shown how to use them when he died.

mr dazzler

02-09-2004, 10:54

OOPs Jimbo-:oops:
never realised that I quoted your site in my previous post further back down the thread. I hope you didn't mind :oops:
Still finding my way around here. Liked your site too. :biggthump

I know what you mean Tantalus about a slower patient aproach; I am the same way polishing off the backs of rough old plane irons/chisels etc-you keep working through the emery on glass stage by stage and you know when the completion has arrived. Very relaxing. :wink:

Just by way of interest, I wonder how many revs were needed for those big 5 and 6 foot stone wheels they used in sheffield to grind knives and that? Wonder if it was very quick. Does anyone know how that was done? :?:

On't subject of sparks and dust-anyone remember the waste re-cycling centre that had all the tin sheets blown off the walls when they had that sort of explosion? :roll: :wave:

Simon

02-09-2004, 11:39

If you have cable, Daz, keep your eyes out for a series presented by Mark Williams on the industrial revolutions ... he goes in to quite a lot of detail on those stone wheels ...... ... including the fact that there were no safety measures in the old days and occasionally those wheels would shatter sending large rocks flying... being a grinder was a well paid job ... I think you'd call it danger money :yikes:

mr dazzler

02-09-2004, 11:52

I do have cable Simon, (and am just about able to cope with't plethoria of adverts), but yes, there is some good stuff. I'll look out for that :wink:
Looking forrerd to Ray Mears's newest show too. I watched that recent re-run (on Sky) and what impacted me most was his parting comment about how important it is to inspire a spirit of adventure in young people, then he ski's off into't distance. :wink:
Have a great day, thanks for't reply,
Mr D :wave:

Roving Rich

02-09-2004, 12:39

I just love this place, so many people on the same wave length !
Thanks for the warning on grinders !!!! :yikes: i have ground both, but will be alot more careful in future, and warn my friend who uses both materials regularly and owns a bench grinder. Lucky bar steward also owns a Tormek. The Tormek is a slow turning grind stone, with its bottom half (ish) immersed in water, and a leather strop alongside. I got a great axe from LIDL for £3 ! (next to the special brew in isle 2 :naughty: ) spent a few hours grinding it to convex and a shaving edge The Tormek is fabulous, but still go for £200 + 2nd hand on ebay ! Axminster do their own version anyone tried it ?
I have been using a bench grinder followed by a belt sander for making my knives (see not bad for an evenings work thread).
I turned my woodworking belt sander upside down (didn't clean it :yikes: ) and clamped it in the vice. It works really well (thanks for pointing me in the right direction guys :biggthump ) and is lots easier to control the edge than the bench grinder.
Just don't get it hot, keep dunking it in the water.
A word of warning - I picked up a nice axe head out of a friends scrap pile, decided i wanted to put my own Ash handle on it....found a nicely shaped piece of ash... just need to split it and shape it.... Meanwhile back at the workshop, i had knocked out a canoe paddle using a friends drawknife...decided that was the tool for the job, combined with a Froe to split the Ash. gave Jack (Woodland Organics) a call and he pointed me in the direction of Penny Farthing tools in Salisbury - http://www.pennyfarthingtools.co.uk/
They are great - both items... and a Swiss Bosch router in an oak case, set of wood graining combs and a leg vice...oh and a side axe head (ever seen one of those for sale !) did me deal- got the lot for £100 ! I was only in the shop for 15 minutes ! its terrible, every hand tool you can think of at a reasonable price, carving chisels galore ( i managed to resist them - this time) engineering tools what a fabulous place, an Aladdin's cave for folk like us ! What a hole on my pocket ! So I've put a handle on the froe, and now have 2 axe heads to find handles for ! :shock:
Sorry for waffling, but that is what picking up a scrap axe head turns into !
Rich

sargey

02-09-2004, 22:40

the quickest handtool for reprofiling is a hoodoo hone with a coarse grit, new paper less than 200 grit. definately faster than filing.

i wouldn't advocate going down that low for any run of the mill jobs as it takes so long to get the scratches out.

for power grinder, use i tend to follow the rule as already mentioned, if a water droplet doesn't just fizzle off it must be less than a hundred degrees. go slowly with a dunk every pass. if you're unsure, keep the axehead in the water cooling, jfor just as long as it was on the grinder heating.

cheers, and.

OldJimbo

03-09-2004, 00:07

No problem with quoting stuff off the site, copying pics or whatever, mr dazzler! Years ago I'd put it up as a geocities site and no-one could ever remember the address - so I named it after my user name on the forums. It's there if anyone wants to put up articles or anything - just email me.

I believe there's pics of the large stone grinders on Bernard Levine's site, together with some info.

Andy

03-09-2004, 13:09

here are some pics of the axe in question.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v211/arlongden666/cutlery%20photos/axe.jpgthis side is how it was when I found it apart from the handle which has been sanded a bit.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v211/arlongden666/cutlery%20photos/axe2.jpgthis is the side thats had the wet and dry on it to get rid of the rust.

I think I'll just clamp the axe in a vice and get the files on it. I don't have a short supply of files or time. I'll then make a proper hone to get the convex edge (I had a curved one for use with a kukri before)

Andy

03-09-2004, 13:41

just checked the head after the axe been inside for a few days. It now wobbles So I'm not going to bother with it:cry::cry::cry:

Tantalus

03-09-2004, 13:48

prolly just the wood shrinking as it dries andy

a new handle will not break the piggy bank and should give you years of use out of it

Tant

Simon

03-09-2004, 14:48

easily remmedied ... and probalby as a result of being outside so long .. bring it in to the warm dry air and it is bound to shrink a bit .. i wouldn't mind betting that the wood shaft expanded for being exposed to the weather fo so long .. strong stuff is expanding wood .. might even have stretched the hole a fraction ;)

you have probably got a wedge of some sort in the top of the shaft to hold the head in place... replace it with a bigger wedge .. or as tant said ... a new handle

Andy

03-09-2004, 15:01

I may play about with it and see. I have a bit of time and want something to do.

jakunen

03-09-2004, 15:45

strong stuff is expanding wood ..
Very true.
I have warm air central heating and it plays hell with the handle of my gollock. Having not used it for a while I chucked it in the pack and went camping. Got to site and ti was quite loose. NOT HAPPY. It rained one morning. Picked up gollock to find it didn't rattle...
Since gettings my Wetterlings it's kept away from the dry air!

mr dazzler

03-09-2004, 16:00

Must be some powerful when you think how you can use swelling wood to split and quarry stone. :wink:

Simon

03-09-2004, 16:22

Very true.
I have warm air central heating and it plays hell with the handle of my gollock. Having not used it for a while I chucked it in the pack and went camping. Got to site and ti was quite loose. NOT HAPPY. It rained one morning. Picked up gollock to find it didn't rattle...
Since gettings my Wetterlings it's kept away from the dry air!
Jak .. let it dry out a bit and go loose .. warm it ... and fill a jar with a a hard setting oil like tung oil, you can dilute it with white spirit a bit too, leave the handle submersed for a couple of days and then take it out and wipe away the excess,

what you will be doing is replacing the fluctuating moisture levels, with a far more stable hardening oil ..... once done . you will find it is less susceptible to humidity changes

jakunen

03-09-2004, 16:46

Cheers Simon. Just need to find some tung oil now...

mr dazzler

03-09-2004, 20:40

Hello there Old Jimbo
Thanks for your kind posting.
One question mate. On the set of photos from edgewise of axe's and knives, I was intrigued by the hawk (is that short for tommerhawk?) that was made from an old file and appears to be wrapped to its haft with raw-hide. How is the blade set into the haft; is it a small tapered through mortise, or does it have little shoulders to prevent it being forced through the haft? & Does the raw-hide act to prevent the wood splitting? Just interested to know as I'd like to make something similar. I once tried to make a elbow adze but couldn't work out how to stop the blade sliding with use. Any useful tips please? Are there any viable man-made alternaives to raw-hide? OOPS turned out to be more than one question!
Sincerely
MR D :wave:
PS your fave 22oz axe feels great just from't pictures!!

OldJimbo

04-09-2004, 08:00

Yep a hawk is just the shortened version of tommahawk. Strangely I've never seen an old one in western Canada - except for much bigger ones called trade axes and sold by the Hudson Bay Co.
I'd figure that hawk to have an eye but unlike a lot of hawks it appears the head is put on from the front like the axes we're used to. Since the heads aren't wedged, they're held in place with with rawhide. That stuff shrinks and hardens when it dries, and will hold anything in place. Then resin is melted on it to stop it getting wet again. Good system for weapons that are thrown.
I'm not sure what a person would use instead of natural rawhide for this use. They probably have some synthetic now, and I'll ask around. You do see ads for synthetic rawhide, but that's just for jewelry not strength. A good source for rawhide in most towns would be the slaughterhouse - you should be able to pick up a few scraps.
It used to be good information to know the location of the slaughterhouse since by some ancient ordinance the local pub there could open at some really early hour so that workers could get refreshment before wielding big blades at high speed.... Then again that was close to forty years ago, fish&chips were served in newspaper, faggots&mushy peas - such things are probably only real in the memories of us old timers.

For the elbow adze, use a hard wood - crab apple is about the only one here - and inset the blade before wrapping it on. Some neat shapes are to be seen at Kestrel Tools - and they say they use tarred nylon for wrapping. That could be good since nylon stretches and so holds things tight. Mason line for chalklines is braided nylon here - and it worked well for holding a crooked knife handle together. Just not too traditional.
http://www.rockisland.com/~kestrel/tools8.html

mr dazzler

04-09-2004, 15:48

Hi again Jimbo
I went out with't missis today-shopping, and unexpectedly came accross - rawhide - in the form of a dog chew. I reckon I'll soak it unknot it and use some of that as whipping. I'll try some other cords or threads also. I like using those carton wrapping bands, split lengthwise and twisted, although its hard to get knots to grab and stay put (warmth and a spot of glue gun does the trick usually). I got some big old files at car boot sales-I'll make blades from that.
Also for an elbow adze, should the haft and blade supporting block be all one piece; (do you cut out a section from a tree with a suitably angled attached branch to use as haft, then shape it etc?) Is haft/block angle critical or just personal preference? I looked again at some pictures of elbow adzes and noticed they have a little step to prevent blade movement.
Ash wood is probaly my best bet for haft wood, but anythings worth a try. I noticed also once some African carvers use a similar system, but the cutters fit into the haft block with a taper fit, (like the cutter on a traditional wooden spokeshave).
Finally I'm still not 100% clear how the blade fits onto the haft of traditional ax in your edgewise pics. Still not sure what you mean when you say "the head is put onto the front". Sorry if I seem slow.
Thanks for your advice
MR D :wink:

Wayne

04-09-2004, 15:58

Mr D. keep us posted how you get on with the dog chews. i have plenty left around after the mutts have got bored with them. it would be nice to fins a use for them.

mr dazzler

04-09-2004, 16:06

HI Wayne' Yes it'll be a test experiment. I don't know if theyve been treated in some way thats de-natured them, but at 99p its not going to break the bank.
Saw pictures of blokes recovering sinew from a rotting caribou, I think I'd prefer the 99p option as long as it works! :eek:

MR D :wave:

Andy

04-09-2004, 19:14

right I'm down to using a hoodoo type hone on it now. What angle should this be done at? It doesn't seem to be getting any sharper though it looks much better with a polished side on it. It went sharp for a while but I think it may have been a burr.

OldJimbo

04-09-2004, 21:53

I should have thought of dog chews - great idea!

On axes the head is fitted to a shaped section at the front of the handle. On hawks, the handle tapers to the rear where you hold it and the head is dropped on from the back and tapped forward. The handle is thicker at the front to hold the head in place, much like a pickaxe. It's a good system for hawks because they are thrown and it delays the handle breaking from the shock of hitting the target. Lots of handles get broken so it's pretty important to have a method of fitting without wedges where the handle can be replaced easily.
It sure looks like that hawk of Edge's has a head put on from the front like a regular axe, so it's not so durable for throwing.

The Kestrel adz handles are cut to shape, but the local carvers still use branches and go around to select one with the right angle. The benefit of getting one off the tree is that the grain configuration is much stronger.

mr dazzler

04-09-2004, 22:52

Hi Jimbo,
Sudden flash of inspiration-I realised now whay you mean about the blade being put on from the front; You were thinking the "front" as in cutting edge being front; I was thinking of "front" from a picture plane point of view. Glad I got that sorted.
Its nice when curved wood limbs can be used as they are, reminds me of the shipwrights who used oak branches to form curved ribs, or to make hay forks and such. Or the house builders who split an entire billet to make cruck frame houses.
My only experience with skin is using goatskin for a drum. Is there any special points to watch out for when soaking/cutting strips/tying/knotting the rawhide ?? Looking at the "bone" I'd say you'll get 12-14" max length of material.
I reckon you just cut the slot for't blade with drill and chisel?? :?:
Thanks for your advice and patience
MR D :wink:
PS another thought-do you think it feasible to make an axe from lost wax cast bronze with a fine steel insert cutting edge? Like a modern bronze age version with a twist.

ESpy

05-09-2004, 08:59

PS another thought-do you think it feasible to make an axe from lost wax cast bronze with a fine steel insert cutting edge? Like a modern bronze age version with a twist.

Hmm. I would have thought that if you're trying to cast the blade with the edge in situ, the shrinkage on the bronze would be against you. Slot, pin and braze could work, however - I'd need to check temperatures on braze vs hardening temperatures, as that would naturally muck up any heat treat...

mr dazzler

05-09-2004, 18:09

I'm not a metal worker by any means, but I'm just thinking out loud as 'twere. What if the bronze casting had a cnc machined groove, and the steel edge machined with coresponding tongue (like floor-boards), then bonded with some sort of space age hi tech resin?? Tell me if you think its daft, just an idea.
It's amazing how that axe form was so universal. I just saw some more examples from Japan.
Its a form that would allow you to make a usable tool quite easily and quickly without forging or casting if the need arose.
Anyone done any outdoor bronze casting??

MR D :wink:

OldJimbo

05-09-2004, 22:34

It could work well - but I doubt it would be worth the effort. Axe heads are still being forged from iron with steel inserts - but for people who want an axe or tomahawk with historical perspective. The only point in doing it is to find out just how it was accomplished.
From watching Time Team episodes, I've been very impressed with seeing how bronze axe heads were cast, attached to handles and used. I'd love to try one of those!

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you'd be coming up with something made by modern methods and it wouldn't serve for anything but to show that you could make it. I'm sure that iron/steel inserts were used in bronze cutting tools - but we'd only learn how by making with primitive methods. A person could devote a lifetime to that!

mr dazzler

05-09-2004, 23:03

Yes, fair point Jimbo,
Just thought it'd look cool to see a brand new ancient bronze axe with a 20th century edge. It'd still be nice to have a go at making a regular one from wax/mud etc. Just as a matter of interest, I wonder how long a typical bronze palstave axe would have lasted-how durable-how frequently it would need sharpening etc. The folk then never wasted any metal (they still find hoards of bronze scrap today) perhaps just melted down a bunch of worn out tools and cast a new batch as need dictated. I wonder, relative to todays values what an axe was worth, maybe equivalent to a car or something now? When I see this sort of stuff (old artifacts) it puts me in reach of my ancestors, and makes me proud they acomplished such enduring quality with such simple methods. Contrary to "modern" beliefs, IMHO the ancient craftsmen were just as intelligent and inventive as any today, probably more so cos it was all done by hand and eye.
Mr D :wink:

OldJimbo

06-09-2004, 17:26

Probably my most re-read books are the "Primitive Technology" books edited by Wescott. We learn so much by experimental archaeology - which leads us to wonder just how much knowledge has been forgotten!
The problem with "little projects" is that they always turn into big ones. As soon as you do something, more questions arise. I can still remember thinking how easy it would be to make up some spindles and fireboards to test fire by friction. Pretty easy, I thought, with a cordless drill to do all the work. ... Then of course I found out about ways to treat wood prior to drying, and a few dozen samples turned into hundreds...
I spent all my free time this summer testing axes and hatchets. It looked pretty easy and simple at the outset because a bunch were provided properly ground. That of course soon led to examining certain characteristics and so out came a bunch of old heads to meet the angle grinder and belt grinder. There isn't much alternative to power tools and experience when a person is dealing with lots of heads. Getting just that experience took me long enough! Even so I had to see and use axes ground with decades of experience to see just what I needed to achieve - so I sure learned a lot this summer! I still have to put in hours of hand work to making bevels consistent and polished - but at least I know what I'm trying to achieve and why.
I guess that' along ramble to say choose your projects wisely, because they're likely to turn into lifetime adventures!

OldJimbo

06-09-2004, 17:27

Probably my most re-read books are the "Primitive Technology" books edited by Wescott. We learn so much by experimental archaeology - which leads us to wonder just how much knowledge has been forgotten!
The problem with "little projects" is that they always turn into big ones. As soon as you do something, more questions arise. I can still remember thinking how easy it would be to make up some spindles and fireboards to test fire by friction. Pretty easy, I thought, with a cordless drill to do all the work. ... Then of course I found out about ways to treat wood prior to drying, and a few dozen samples turned into hundreds...
I spent all my free time this summer testing axes and hatchets. It looked pretty easy and simple at the outset because a bunch were provided properly ground. That of course soon led to examining certain characteristics and so out came a bunch of old heads to meet the angle grinder and belt grinder. There isn't much alternative to power tools and experience when a person is dealing with lots of heads. Getting just that experience took me long enough! Even so I had to see and use axes ground with decades of experience to see just what I needed to achieve - so I sure learned a lot this summer! I still have to put in hours of hand work to making bevels consistent and polished - but at least I know what I'm trying to achieve and why.
I guess that's a long ramble to say choose your projects wisely, because they're likely to turn into lifetime adventures!