View Full Version : Roger C Linger Bushcraft Knife
steven andrews
31-08-2004, 15:35
I just saw this one mentioned at BladeForums. Looks very nice..
Linger (http://riflestocks.tripod.com/pics23.html)
Look at this one http://riflestocks.tripod.com/pics17.html
He says it was originally designed by Ray Mears as the Woodlore knife
Surely thats illegal :?: :nono:
Reminds me of some thing but the name escapes me........ :o):
tenbears10
31-08-2004, 16:00
Or this one
http://riflestocks.tripod.com/pics19.html
They look good but he doesn't seem to make his own sheaths as the featured ones all come from different makers. Anyone know anymore about them?
Bill
He says it was originally designed by Ray Mears as the Woodlore knife
Surely thats illegal
Why?..... he is giving credit where credit is due and not claiming it as his design..... or did you mean 'ray didn't design it' or did you mean 'you can't copy rays design'......
Ed
tenbears10
31-08-2004, 16:19
I've just emailed for some more info so I will let you know when he gets back to me.
Bill
Why?..... he is giving credit where credit is due and not claiming it as his design..... or did you mean 'ray didn't design it' or did you mean 'you can't copy rays design'......
Ed
I meant that he is copying his design is he not? And if you say that it's not exactly the same it wouldn't really matter because he basically says it's the same design as the woodlore. Is that not illegal then?
I like it. It isn't the same, it has a few changes - tapered tang, S30V, that sort of thing.
Scott,
Its only illegal if he's lying and then it takes a lot of proving in a court of law as its his word against the claimants - maybe it was the original design for the woodlore knife after all Alan Woods and Wilkinson sword both make WL's now so why not this guy before them.
As ED says give the guy some credit someone had to work with Ray to design the original concept.
And if he's fibbing - well I am sure WL's lawyors will soon be on the trail.
Look at this one http://riflestocks.tripod.com/pics17.html
He says it was originally designed by Ray Mears as the Woodlore knife
Surely thats illegal :?: :nono:
There is very litytle that hasn't already been done in the knife world. It would be virtually impossible for somone to patent a knife (of any design), a mechanism, maybe, but to claim original authorship of a simple blade profile would take OJ Simpsons lawyers a month of sundays. But... it ios technically possible. The only problem with that, is that the knife pictured isnt the same - it's similar, but not the same - it only needs to be a little bit different, to be different. This is of course assuming he hasn't worked with RM on the design of the original. If he has, then he may be quite withing his righjts to say this is the original design.
If you were to ask "is this ethical?" - well, that's not the same as legal. Ethcal doesnt cost you money.
ok, Well I decided to look at the review he talks about at bladeForums.com http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302564 and came across this post:
I really enjoyed reading this thread!!! Thanks Ron for going to all that effort to share that with us. I am very happy it turned out well for you during your week long course. Looks like Jammie made another great sheath too (for the Sambar). I am suprised he got it done and shipped to you so quickly. Jammie did a super nice job on the sheath he made for me a couple weeks back.
Mete, who generously responded to this thread, did not mention that I am a heat treating student of his via this forum on the 'shop talk' section.
I must confess that until now I was not aware that Ray Mears, or anyone for that matter, is the designer. I assumed it generic handed down from the ages. I will be updating my website where these knives are pictured with full credit to him for that; as it should be.
Roger
Then Later
I have just now updated my website giving full credit to Ray Mears for the original design of this style knife (the style knife of this particular thread - the Woodlore).
I am positive that Ron assumed, me being a knife maker, that I already was aware of the designer and I, not knowing better, never asked. Ron Medise has from the very beginning been sharply specific with me in all details and I know for a fact he would never have intended to not give proper credit if he thought I was unaware. A professional knife maker should always ask if not sure himself.
RL
That clears it up then! :biggthump
The thing is, he didn't work with Ray on the original design, infact he apparently didn't know that it was a design made by Ray Mears but that it was ' generic, handed down from the ages' until someone pointed it out to him on BladeForums. It is infact, not the exact original woodlore design and yet he says it is. I expect he is just trying to give Ray the credit but you know what Lawyers can be like.
Well, looks like there has been some serious "inspiration" derived from the woodlore at the very least. I would stop short of saying it's a rip-off (but not far short).
well investigated Scott - regarding the knife maker here I think ignorance is bliss but not an excuse. But as Martyn says there are hundreds of similar profiled blades out there some old than some younger than the WL - BIT OF A MINE FIELD MAYBE :yikes:
Hmmm, on reflection and after reading over that in detail, as well as looking at the sheath, I'd have to amend my opinion and say that the Linger knife (and sheath) is a complete rip of the woodlore.
V.Bad Mr Linger.
If you're reading Woodlore, send me lots of freebies for uncovering this! :wink: :naughty:
tenbears10
31-08-2004, 19:54
Hmmm, on reflection and after reading over that in detail, as well as looking at the sheath, I'd have to amend my opinion and say that the Linger knife (and sheath) is a complete rip of the woodlore.
V.Bad Mr Linger.
A bit harsh Martyn. The posts on blade forums say that the customer came to him with a very specific design and he made it for them. It was only in that thread that he realised that the design was by Ray Mears. He doesn't even mention Alan Wood because I genuinely beleive he hasn't seen his work and even if you had seen alan's site it makes no mention of woodlore.
If we are talking exact copies then you know as well as I do that he is not the first maker to be asked to do one. Trond's woodie on BB was a close interpretation of a woodlore because thats what customers wanted. Bison bushcraft's forester is almost an exact copy but with slightly different dimentions ( I think the blade length is less, but the steel is the same and the thickness of the blade and the design!).
Unless woodlore have patented their design, which I don't recall they have but if anyone knows otherwise please say, then they don't have a claim on the design especially if it is altered to a new customers specs.
I say fair play as soon as he knew it was someones design he gave credit where it was due. This is going to happen more and more if Alan Wood is snowed under with orders created from the popularity of the woodlore knife. Remember the new series hasn't started yet I bet they get a ton of orders when it does (well if they were still taking them). Who can blame people for sourcing a similar knife elsewhere.
Bill
The thing is Bill, the knife is similar to the Woodlore but there are differences in the design and yet he is saying that that exact knife was originally designed by Ray Mears which it wasn't. Ok maybe he is genuinely giving Ray credit or maybe he's using the similarities to his advantage because he knows people are going to buy it if they think it was designed by Ray Mears.
Did Trond say that the knife he made was designed by ray Mears :?:
Thing is TB, it's a suprisingly small world, this knifemaking thing. Mr Linger has made several of these knives and is asking us to accept that until it was mentioned in that thread, the Woodlore was completely unknown to him - maybe, but I frankly doubt it.
Either he has directly copied the Woodlore himself, or his customer has and provided him with specs which are a copy of the woodlore. If the latter, and he was genuinely unaware of the origin, now it has been made aware to him, decency would dictate he should withdraw his copies from the market IMO.
Either way, someone (the maker or the customer) has plagarised the woodlore - even down to the sheath, of that there is no doubt. If he wasn't before, the maker is now aware he is copying another makers knife, of that there is no doubt (he admits as much by crediting the Woodlore).
Harsh?
....Just calling it as I see it.
...very little can be done about it though - it's down to "honour amonst knifemakers" i think. I doubt Woodlore would get anywhere by attempting a legal solution.
tenbears10
31-08-2004, 20:58
Thing is TB, it's a suprisingly small world, this knifemaking thing. Mr Linger has made several of these knives and is asking us to accept that until it was mentioned in that thread, the Woodlore was completely unknown to him - maybe, but I frankly doubt it. I see your point on that one.
Either he has directly copied the Woodlore himself, or his customer has and provided him with specs which are a copy of the woodlore. If the latter, and he was genuinely unaware of the origin, now it has been made aware to him, decency would dictate he should withdraw his copies from the market IMO. I think it is more a customer thing but that is open to discussion
Either way, someone (the maker or the customer) has plagarised the woodlore - even down to the sheath, of that there is no doubt. If he wasn't before, the maker is now aware he is copying another makers knife, of that there is no doubt (he admits as much by crediting the Woodlore). Again no one can say that it is not a copy but what about my two examples of very similar knives do they fall under the same category?
Harsh?
....Just calling it as I see it.
...very little can be done about it though - it's down to "honour amonst knifemakers" i think. I doubt Woodlore would get anywhere by attempting a legal solution. Do you think that no one is allowed to make an example of this knife with changes for a customer? I think that all the best designs of everything are copied, look at cars, buildings, hair styles, fashion, outdoor equipment, dyson hoovers etc.
I hope you don't mind how I have replied to your post it just seemed eaisest.
Bill
steven andrews
31-08-2004, 21:12
Can. Worms.
This was not my intention - I just liked it.
The thing is Bill, the knife is similar to the Woodlore but there are differences in the design and yet he is saying that that exact knife was originally designed by Ray Mears which it wasn't. Ok maybe he is genuinely giving Ray credit or maybe he's using the similarities to his advantage because he knows people are going to buy it if they think it was designed by Ray Mears.
I seriously doubt that an american maker is going to know who Ray Mears is and if he did know ...... I doubt he would give a flying fig who he was or what his opinion is ... I think that the American concept of living in the wilderness and the Ray mears concept is so distant from each other .. that he probably saw a knife that someone had asked him if he could make something like it and he went ahead in ignorance ... personally .. I think it looks like an improvement ... good luck to him
as you pointed out, Martyn ... there isn't nothing new under the sun ... everyone gets copied ..... I consider it a compliment .. I did a forge finished knife on BB and soon afterwards ... another person did a knife very similar ... I just smiled and chuckled to myself :wink:
oh and Steven ..... don't worry about it... some of the knifeys can get like that and Martyn is well known for getting out of the bed the wrong side occasionally ;)
II think that the American concept of living in the wilderness and the Ray mears concept is so distant from each other ..
What, you mean like Mors Kochanski?
(and before anybody leaps on that - what continent is Canada on? :D :p )
Then there's Christine Kochanski, but not so much for bushcraft.
Yep I know when a well known person designs somthing his/hers fans are going to want copies of that made for them. However I was just pointing out that this guy says his knife is designed originally by ray mears as the woodlore which it isn't because it is different . (There is evidence in the review thread on BladeForums to back this up)
tenbears10
31-08-2004, 22:29
Can. Worms.
This was not my intention - I just liked it.
I enjoy some healthy banter. As long as Martyn sees it the same, which I think he does then no worms in or out of a can. :wink:
It is good to discuss ideas. I think like simon that if Ray and Alan have more orders than they can fill for a year then they should be pleased they designed something so popular that people want to copy it. They have branched out with their WS partnership so fair play to other people for having a go at improvement on an original.
I think quite a few makers have made a one off copy of the woodlore for a customer but if that person just uses it and doesn't post pics on forums then who is the wiser but the 2 of them.
Oh and of interest I haven't heard anything from my email this afternoon and I think I read he's not making anymore. We shall see.
Bill
I enjoy some healthy banter. As long as Martyn sees it the same, which I think he does then no worms in or out of a can. :wink:
It is good to discuss ideas. I think like simon that if Ray and Alan have more orders than they can fill for a year then they should be pleased they designed something so popular that people want to copy it. They have branched out with their WS partnership so fair play to other people for having a go at improvement on an original.
I think quite a few makers have made a one off copy of the woodlore for a customer but if that person just uses it and doesn't post pics on forums then who is the wiser but the 2 of them.
Oh and of interest I haven't heard anything from my email this afternoon and I think I read he's not making anymore. We shall see.
Bill
Oh TB, no sweat - as mushi has so kindly pointed out, I have a way of telling it that can come accross a bit on the forceful side sometimes. :o):
I dont state facts, just rationalise my views to the point where I'm confident - then I have a tendancy to state my opinion with a little too much emphasis - but hey - we all got our faults right?
The similarities between this knife and the Woodlore, are so evident in so many ways, that I'm as sure as i can be that either the maker or the customer had prior knowledge of the woodlore and copied it.
Whether that's anything to get upset abpout, I dunno. I do know makers get very protective of thier designs. Of course I dont include Mushi, because he's the enlightened being that proves the rule. :nana: :wink: :nana: . But for a large part of the knifemaking community, there seems to be an ethic which goes something like "by all means be inspired by my work, that is flattery, but dont copy it so closely that you turn flattery into forgery..." ...actually, I just made that up, but it does seem to say what I hear many makers say on the subject of imitation.
I have seen a couple of knives which are clearly inspired by the Woodlore - Trond's Felleskap is one of them....
http://www.britishblades.com/pics/trondfell2.jpg
...but while it's clearly inspired by the Woodlore style, it's also a significant departure in many ways. The blade shape and geometry are significantly different.
Whereas the aforementioned knife in this thread, looks as though someone has transcribed the dimensions and proportions directly from the woodlore. Whether or not the minor differences are an improvement, is irrelevant!
But whatever, it aint my beef. :wink:
tenbears10
31-08-2004, 23:50
Like I thought no hard feelings. I enjoyed discussing it with you as long as I wasn't P***ing you off.
Bill
bushwacker bob
01-09-2004, 00:18
:o): :o): :o):
Wheres Danzo when you need him
Like I thought no hard feelings. I enjoyed discussing it with you as long as I wasn't P***ing you off.
Bill
Not in the slightest Bill (& likewise), good debate. :biggthump
The General
01-09-2004, 04:01
Its S30V... :naughty:
tenbears10
01-09-2004, 08:06
I got a reply from my email and Roger can make more bushcraft knives. He has a small waiting list (even the copy has a waiting list) but is happy to take more orders.
I don't know if I can post prices here so pm if you want more info.
Bill
bushwacker bob
01-09-2004, 13:30
apart from stimulating a lively and interestig debate, Roger c Linger produces some very well made knives. The blade on the one shown is more akin to the Alan Wood bushcrafter as it is a subtle drop point as opposed to a spearpoint.
Personally I prefer the look of his knife and the quality speaks for itself :wink:
I'm the guy that had Roger make me these Bushcraft Blades. I have always been a fan of Ray Mears/Allan Woods Knives, but I Live in Flordia, USA and live around Saltwater and wanted one in S30V. I also wanted afew other changes like a tapered tang. There is a very long wait for a Allan Wood knife and they are very expensive. I send Roger a email and a computer drawing of this knife. There was a project over on the Wilderness Surival Forum @ KnifeForums.com for a full tang scandi grind blade, called the OSF knife made by Nick Wheeler. I took this design and changed afew more items and ask Roger to make it for me. Roger knew nothing of the type of knife, or of Ray Mears. This was to be his first Scandi Grind. Sorry if I ruffed some peoples feathers, but I was looking for a special knife to take on a 7-day BOSS surival coarse and though this type of blade would work the best.
Ron Medise
By the way, its one heck of a great blade, I really love the S30V steel.
Welcome to the forum myakka, it's good to have you. Thanks for letting us know situation with the knife. It looks like a very nice blade, it may be in the thread somewhere, but, how much did it cost, if you don't mind me asking?
I hope that you spend some more time on bcuk and share some of your wisdom with us, the BOSS course sounds interesting, tell us more.
All the best
I love it when i'm right :o): :wink:
and welcome Ron :wave:
Thanks for the welcomes. The Knife was $195.00 U.S Dollars plus shipping. I Think it all depends on what material he uses and any extras you wnat. Since Roger made me the first one, I had him make my a 2nd one in Sambar Stag (Antler). The Antler knife was more because of the extra cost of the material. I have written a complete review of my BOSS survival course, I can post it here a bushcraftUK, if you would like.
Ron
It feels kind of funny seeing your name in a thread tiltle. I was unaware of this thread until receiving an email today providing me a link. I wish to assure all that my intentions so far as giving proper credit for an idea was totally unselfish and believe it correct to refect credit where it is due. I did not want anyone to be under an illusion that I came up with the knife design on my own. Since making the first two bushcraft knives I have had an opportunity to view the Woodlore knife. It is not the same as the version I have been making. There are similarities but there are enough differences for me to believe it might be best to instead give credit to Myakka. In fact, it was some time before I understood he had made the changes on his own. When Myakka first sent me the drawing I did not realize he had customized the design. If he had told me it went over my head. Later, during a phone conversation, we discussed the changes he had incorporated and that is when I better understood the design origin.
Even more customizations are coming. I have one to start that will have recessed handle scales at end of tang for batoning upon it without damadging the scales. There is another that will have a very slight tang taper and a tang protrusion for use as a hammer. That one will be made of RWL-34 steel. For me it is the customer's desire. I continue to be motivated by ideas they can come up with that I would never think of.
It is correct that I do not make the sheath. I have Jamie Briggs make the sheaths for these knives. He specializes in sheath making for these type knives and I only concentrate on knife making and the heat treating of all my blades.
Thanks all.
Roger Linger
Nice knife Roger. Are you be planning to make more?
Wayne,
Yes indeed. I am settling into them. I have three I am finishing up this week and three more to start just as soon as the postman delivers my steel order and a tactical to start in a day or two. The last day of last month I turned full time knife maker. It is all that can pay the modest bills now. So, I hope to be busy. We'll see.
Roger
Good luck on your new venture Roger
Welcome to bcuk Roger, it's good to have you. Many thanks for commenting on this thread I'm sure that all misunderstandings are now thoroughly explained which is excellent.
I hope that you continue to visit. Another forum you might be interested in is British Blades (http://www.britishblades.com)
Have a good one and I'll see you about :biggthump
Well thank you Tony, very much. I have developed a fondness for bushcraft knives now that Myakka introduced me to them The Scandi grind is unique compared to the hunting type knives I thought I would always make. Instead it may be that I will be making several bushcraft and larger tactical knives. It is opposite of what I ever thought I would be making. The various ideas that prospective customers come up with amazes me. The practicality of these type knives has been educational. For me to remember that all those trips to the Canadian bush I used to take only a pocket knife and all along I could have had a bushcraft. Sometimes we learn too late :-) .
I enjoy periodically sending my customers a picture as their knife progresses. I hope that doing so helps lesson the pains of anxiousness Here is one that is destined for England pretty soon. As the picture shows, the oxidation from heat treating has not yet been ground off. The wood is book end exhibition grade desert ironwood.
http://riflestocks.tripod.com/ironwood.jpg
Roger (RL)
Welcome Roger and good luck with the knife making, they look very special indeed!
A few days from becoming finished knives. Just prior to palm swelling and contouring the handle scales. Arizona desert ironwood and green canvas base micarta.
http://riflestocks.tripod.com/3bushcrafts.jpg
RL
bushwacker bob
14-09-2004, 12:38
All the best with turning pro Roger.You have a quality product and therefor I'm sure you'll have some orders from this side of the pond :wink:
Thats a lovely pattern to those scales :biggthump
Ed
A few days from becoming finished knives. Just prior to palm swelling and contouring the handle scales. Arizona desert ironwood and green canvas base micarta.
RL
Nice knives Roger.
Whats your lead time at the minute. I have just received a letter from woodlore to say my July Alan Wood will not be here till Christmas. feeling somewhat irked now
Thanks all.
Wayne, at the moment it looks like sometime in October, then off to sheath making.
RL
Roger you have a pm. i am very tempted to place an order.
bushwacker bob
15-09-2004, 20:30
Roger you have a pm. i am very tempted to place an order.
And you'll get it before your Woodie Wayne! :wink: Those burls are very pretty
Those knives look excellent! They will serve their owners well.
-Emile
You all are very kind to me with those nice comments. It always helps to be encouraged regardless of confidence level. Thanks all; Roger
I just finished this one up this evening and have two more to finish up within the next two days:
Pictures of the other side, tang taper and specifications can be viewed here: http://riflestocks.tripod.com/pics24.html
http://riflestocks.tripod.com/bushcraft5_1.jpg
The grind is about 1/3 Scandi but the way the knife is tilted to get better lighting it looks more narrow.
bushwacker bob
16-09-2004, 16:15
Those scales are even better now you,ve finished them. :super:
Those scales are even better now you,ve finished them. :super:
Absolutely!! :biggthump
BCUK is bad for my financial health. i have placed an order with Roger for the bushcrafter with desert iron wood scales. Delivery sometime mid november.
now i just need to hibernate to for a couple of months whilst my baby is created.
So thats 2 knives being made by Gene delivery Jan, my Woodlore sometime before Christmas and now Rogers. i shall have to drop the attitude at work and do some serious overtime.
:rolmao: I just bought a bison, and i want a BRKT Northstar, and also to replace mt WS micarta.
bushwacker bob
17-09-2004, 00:03
So thats 2 knives being made by Gene delivery Jan, my Woodlore sometime before Christmas and now Rogers. i shall have to drop the attitude at work and do some serious overtime.[/QUOTE]
What about a north star Wayne?.........VAL :buttkick:
I can see a new year meetup with the southampton boys will involve lots of sharps! :sword:
please ignore this posting. duplicated.
RL
I'll put all my love and attention into making your knife Wayne. Looking forward to getting a few over there to our mother country.
RL
and the other ironwood burl, just now finished and this one has nickel silver fittings:
http://riflestocks.tripod.com/bushcraft6_1.jpg
RL
Oh come on guys! I have never heard of the original designer of this knife. So, how would he be losing money if I bought one from Roger?
You can't think like this, how about Victorinox vs Wenger?, Tanto points? The list is endless.
Roger has said that this design wasn't anything he had planned to make. The customer came to him and asked him to make it, he did and it was well received. I would want a good cutting too, not a status symbol.
Roger offers the right knife (for me) at the right price and with an acceptable waiting time. This is just the way things are, if you feel so strongly about rip offs then I suggest you never buy anything made in Japan or China to start with.
Hi Temper and welcome. :wave:
I think the worries about Rogers coping Ray Mears design have been laid to rest much earlier in this thread. I have ordered a knife from Roger. he has been a pleasure to deal with and i am looking forward to receiving a quality knife fairly shortly.
The talk though was about intellectual property rights and not giving the correct recognition to the orginal designer. There are many Ray Mears inspired knives out there. Some good some not so good. Roger has given an acknowledgement to ray as the inspiration for this knife and is a result to customer design requirements.
Wayne,
I expect to profile your blade this evening. Without unforeseen delay I hope to heat treat five or six this weekend, one being yours.
Temper, thanks for kindly speaking. I have rewritten the credit line on my website to more properly give true credit to Ron Medise for this design I make but that he was inspired by the Woodlore.
Well, while things are still warm :wink: here is the last of the three pictured here recently before they were finished:
http://riflestocks.tripod.com/bushcraft7_1.jpg
This one is the green canvas base micarta with nickel silver pinning. Thanks for looking.
RL