View Full Version : Army or civilian?
Squidders
30-08-2004, 21:52
I have often pondered, what are peoples thoughts on the pros/cons for army surplus equipment or civilian equipment? not the cost side of things because we all know most surplus stuff is cheaper... but the quality of equipment?
For example, I have a web-tex bergen. I don't actually know what the diferences are between that and the real thing.
And things like waterproofs, boots, cooking equipment and the like, what's your preference?
Joe
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Confused as usual!
TheViking
30-08-2004, 22:01
Hi...
I have bought much of my equipment in surplus stores, but also in outdoor stores! :wink: But most of the products in our surplus stores are new and all the products in the outdoor stores are new.
IMO:
Surplus: military boots, cheap waterproofs, often smaller things, often swedish army mess kit. The knives are often big, Rambo ones, of no use at all.
Outdoor stores: often Trangia, bright coloUred ( :nana: ) clothes and bags. Most of them sells a lot of different GTX products. Often smaller knives, but not a very large selection.
(Found a surplus over here who sells original, new Leatherman Waves with beltpouch for 75,5 £!) :biggthump
If you are ex army you probably like surplus becasuse you really know how to use the equipment. Take gary for example he is still using the PLCE sidepockets as a daypack, probably becasue he knows exactly how they work and hasyears of experience in using them.
I have a mix and choose between civvi or military depending on what I'm doing and where I'm going. Generally I find that military stuff is cheaper, more robust, more fire retardant, has more pockets and is heavier than civvi stuff. Since it's out tax pennies that have paid for the development of it, we may as well take advantage of it.
One thing that bothers me is this idea that anyone who wears "DPM" is somehow some sort of wannabe ... it used to be that rank and insignia was what mattered, not whatever clothing pattern that is being used. I really couldn't care if people wear sky blue pink or DPM, whatever floats their twig and each to his or her own.
One thing that bothers me is this idea that anyone who wears "DPM" is somehow some sort of wannabe ....
I think it's more to do with the implied association to that type, rather than an automatic membership to the club. We've all met the para-military, wannabe geek and I would think most of us want as far away as quickly as possible. I know I do. It is a shame, as it's a truly useful material (or rather, some truly useful & cheap items sometimes are only available as surplus DPM), but the implied association is enough for me to never, ever wear camo. I dont own a single item in it and very much doubt that I ever will. I do admire those that couldn't care less about the implied association and wear it anyway, I just aint one of em.
Green is OK, khaki is OK, ...camo - no way!
One thing that bothers me is this idea that anyone who wears "DPM" is somehow some sort of wannabe ... it used to be that rank and insignia was what mattered, not whatever clothing pattern that is being used. I really couldn't care if people wear sky blue pink or DPM, whatever floats their twig and each to his or her own.
DPM clothes is more like uniform, it shows what army you belong to, some people have to earn the right to use it. I have complete sets of the swedish uniorm and a lot of other equipment that are issued. But I never wear any part of my uniform as an civilian, but any of my other kit I often use. Because to me it´s not only clothes (probably the best pants there is) it´s a lot more than that.
Then there will always be people who wants to be something their not, so they dress up like GI Joe and think they are really cool, and that is probably why many people is irritated on people using uniforms when being in the outdoors.
mr dazzler
30-08-2004, 22:58
I love them flecktarn trousers. They wear and wear and still feel comfy when your grubby and sweaty. I got about 5 or 6 pairs and wear em all the time (I mean, every day). I know what you mean Martyn, (For example, I didn't buy a camo rucksack) ,but the flecktarns are for me just very good trousers. Got a beautiful MOAC wool climbing shirt a few weeks back (£4 SCOPE shop).
tenbears10
30-08-2004, 23:00
There are examples of surplus kit which is not only cheap but excellent for the job. There is also a lot of stuff that soldiers throw away as soon as they are allowed and replace with decent stuff.
Take boots, you can now get Britton assault boots brand new from silvermans for £29.99. They are the current issue british army boot and not bad especially for £30. They are no match for Lowa or Danner boots which soldiers often repalce them with but then they are £150 so you see the difference.
The problem with some military gear is that the contract goes to the LOWEST bidder and not the one who makes the best quality.
If you want camoflauge gear for hunting then dpm is a lot less money than Realtree and will do the same job.
I think you need to get the best of the surplus gear and use outdoor stuff for the rest. It is not just about colour or price but they can be the main factors.
I've had the same pair of mess tins for 10 years and they must have cost a fiver, compare that to titanium space plates and no contest.
Bill
RAPPLEBY2000
31-08-2004, 01:26
even before i was in the army i was fairly, familiar with the durability of army gear. I WAS ALSO AWARE OF THE DOWN SIDES!
positives:(compared with the civilian equivalent)
it is strong, designed to be chucked about, it's a subdued colour(no colour clashes!), it's practical, functional, it is cheap, has potential to last years longer!
disadvantages:(but not in all cases!)
wear too much and people will stare!, some surplus is rubbish, the item may have already had it's life, it does tend to be heavier, it does tend to not be as comfy.
IMO:
i have used loads of surplus gear, some of which is older than me, but still going strong!
you do have to pick carefully!
ok so it's cheap but is it worth the social bother?
i personally am moving away from overtly military gear, i have no problem with using it but i feel image is a concern if we are to promote bushcraft as a seperate area to survival(ism)!
RovingArcher
31-08-2004, 02:37
I use a combination of civi and military (German, U.S.A. and Swedish).
MartiniDave
31-08-2004, 09:50
I like to pick and mix my kit, like Adi, civi and surplus. On my hols I picked up a couple of stainless mugs, similar to the crusader but sized to fit the US style water bottle for £2.95 each! Bargain!
For clothing I tend to prefer buying new rather than "pre-soiled" if you know what I mean. I have no problem with wearing cammo, but then I've been wearing the stuff for shooting for years.
Dave
Just like Dave I got DPM for shooting primarily, but after wearing it for shooting I got to like the practicality of the kit. Now I wear it just coz I like it. I don't worry about people looking down at me or whatever - knickers to 'em.
That said, I wouldn't wear DPM top and strides together unless it was raining and I had my WVP smock on.
Surplus is cheap, hardwearing and often tried and tested.
Civilian stuff is often let down by being aimed at the money market or the townie.
But
In the army we often bought our own gear as we didnt think isssue gear was up to much - apart from when I was Guard comd I dont think I ever wore a issue smock and I have previously pointed out I used to hate jet packs!
End of the day its courses for horses - I shy away from camo gear - and would advise travellers abroad (especially africa or south america) to do the same - but if your into nature photography or shooting camo works well for you.
Personally I'd not bothered what anyone wears. So long as they liek it and are comfortable.
I use a lot of ex-issue kit for clothing (partly because some of my old kit still fits me), and because it is damn tough and blends in when I'm doing anything nature related. A bright orange jacket with azure sleeves don't help much when stalking animals).
It also has a lot of pockets, normally quite large, for stowage that you can easily get into.
A lot of stuff I had to sell when I worked for a highstreet camping shop was very expensive, brightly coloured stuff that was designed more for fashion than anything. Which really put me off a lot of it and so I went back to the good old army kit I'd used before and knew I could trust.
But all my packs and tents are civi ones. So I just use whatever suits my purpose.
I shy away from camo gear - and would advise travellers abroad (especially africa or south america) to do the same
A very good piece of advice gary!!! Many countries do not have army surplus shops and they will just assume that you are military personel which can land you in a right host of trouble. I've seen a chinese border closed because they though an american GI was trying to enter china as a civilian and they wouldn't let him in..... or anyone else.... Tanks blocking the road, guns being waved around... lots of agro.... we just turned round and went back home and left them too it.
Ed
Paganwolf
31-08-2004, 17:48
Hi Squidders, I get bits of stuff from Army Surplus shops if your a regular (as I am) you usually end up getting discount, I would certainly shy away from DPM/camo stuff if Travelling abroad in fact i would say its a definite no no as Gary has previously mentioned, but in this country its generally ok and you can get nice cheap stuff from the AS shops, i like the jungle light weight mod DPM trousers they are very comfortable and have big bellowed map pockets on each leg and have taped buttons and dry out very quickly and are ideal for walking in, they are realy the only british army trousers I like,(oops apart from the Gore-tex stuff thats good and as cheap as chips) so each to their own, every thing else i own is Olive green (sound familiar guys? :rolmao: ). As for boots im pretty fussy about what i put on my feet, so i wear Danners or Lowa boots. You can always find a bargain in AS stores i recently bought 2 gore-tex bivvi bags 30 quid each and 2 Bashas 10 quid each for some one i know I also bought a nylon webbing gas mask bag which makes a great foraging/possibles day bag. For anyone who can get to Camden Market in london there are some great army surplus shops in the arches which sell surplus clothes from all over the world,Very good and very reasonably priced go on a weekend day all the market stalls are out ,makes a great day out too (it will take all day to look around it) :shock: :wave:
Good going guys
This is a real good spin off from a question I posed yesterday on another thread
Being ex military myself, I would NEVER wear DPM in the civvy world, even when I'm stalking or hunting, I find more natural colours do the trick better.
In my opinion DPM attracts attention, bad attention for the reasons drawn out above.
Interestingly, I now remember one school here in the UK actually asking the students not to wear DPM on their courses, they pointed out exactly what Gary said about it not being accepted in many parts of the world and perhaps causing a problem for you, Africa was given as an example. Almost everyone on that course was going on an overseas trip somewhere or other in the near future and it was a point well taken. The instructor also pionted out civvy clothing that can cause problems, espiecially ones that bear countries flags upon them etc,
Admittingly, surplus stuff is very hardwearing and cheap and as Adi says more fireproof.
Chris :wave:
One point I forgot to make is Military surplus non-dpm or camo - to my mind this is a happy medium having the price and robustness the military want but while not labelling the wearer as Rambo's best buddy.
Green lightweights are a pretty good example of this as they are fairly non-descript and yet a good buy.
Paganwolf
31-08-2004, 19:05
Good point Gary, you can get some lovely Olive green cotton ex-mod shirts hard wearing and comfey and obviously the Light weight army trousers which are very fast drying, US army do a rip-stop version (BDU) hard wearing but a little thicker and take a little longer to dry but available in plain olive green .I wonder if you can bleach cotton DPM trousers and re-dye them olive? :?:
Great Pebble
31-08-2004, 19:14
Mixture of both, cooking/drinking kit is mostly surplus, apart from a civvy Trangia.
Clothing is mix and match cammo and black, my day to day clothing is the same save for the addition of the occasional Ben Sherman.
Load carrying gear is civvy. In sensible colours.
i got nothing in DPM exsept for a canteen cover and a gore-tex jacket. I couldn't fit my canteen, cup and stand combination in a OD cover i got, so i use the DPM. The gore-tex jacket is only there because i can't find a OD or tan color water/windproof, but breathible jacket i can afford.
To the original question...US Military now has a program to update its equipment using 'outdoors' companies (eg - Oakley are designing the boots) up-to-date knowledge/technology. Due to the amount of competition there has been great advances made in outdoor gear, therefore much of the military stuff has been surpassed. You need to compare piece by piece.
Sometimes the military/ex-militray stuff is cheaper and more hardwearing. Of course a lot of the 2nd hand stuff is already worn out.
The better civilian gear brands will have superior designs to the military stuff though.
The US Military have been doing this or similar for a while - hence Alpha making M65's and whats there name making the Poncho's etc.
One thing with all these so called advances is someones designers and manufacturers can over complicate things - as an example (seeing as its my flavour of the month) lets look at a Mocassin/Mukluk developed over thousands of years, fine tuned to perfection and still worn by many people who live and work in the enviroment its designed for - but - big business, brand names and the petroleum industry all want there peice of the pie - designed by guys who never wander out their office and manufactured by people whose only goal is making a profit - my point sometimes the simple things are better and science can blind us, a bit off topic but hey.......
Paganwolf
01-09-2004, 11:55
Too true Gary, pair of moccasins and a buckskin loin cloth and knowledge did Native Americans fine till the white man came along and messed things up putting it really mildly! Your personal kit is just that personal at the end of the day its down to you,if someone tells you lowa (as an example) are the best boots you can buy and you try em on and they hurt your feet but a cheaper pair has the same features but are comfy then whatta ya gonna do? Er am i mega of topic now :rolmao: :rolmao:
I take the point ... but I think I'd look a lot less wierd going around in the occasional DPM jacket than a pair of moccasins and a buckskin loincloth. Any military kit I wear is because it fits the quality and standard that I want ... wearing moccasins and a lioncloth would put me well and truly in the realm of the wannabe something-or-other! :rolmao:
Paganwolf
01-09-2004, 16:41
what about a Gortex loin cloth?!! :shock: oh but make sure its Olive green and not DPM!! :shock: :rolmao: :rolmao: Do Danner make moccasins?? lol :o):
How about a woollen loin cloth! :yikes: itchy itchy!
Paganwolf
01-09-2004, 16:52
:rolmao: NICE!!!!! :rolmao: could you weave one from nettle cordage PMSL!!!!! :rolmao:
NickBristol
01-09-2004, 16:57
Just the thought of all that chafing is bringing tears to my eyes :yikes:
Nettle cordage with the leaves left on - medieval monks would love it!!
Paganwolf
01-09-2004, 17:40
Hmmm i think im warming to the idea too :naughty: :rolmao:
Camoflaged too - you'd love it!
Paganwolf
01-09-2004, 18:19
Ha Ha ha ha ha :rolmao: :rolmao:
Definitely a personal choice this once (you don't say ...). I've always been a bit worried about looking like a squaddie on leave - not to mention that should I ever find myself in 'trouble' (touch wood), I wouldn't want to be dressed in DPMs and blending into the scenery - not exactly the best thing for any rescue team or search party! But of course, military kit ain't designed to attract attention ... unless you're wearing temperate DPMs in the desrt, that is.
As for quality, I think the military stuff is getting better all the time, and often has a somewhat unfairly 'bad' reputation. Don't quote me on this, but I'm fairly sure that most 'modern' British Army clobber is produced by the likes of Berghaus et al (not that they're the best by any means, but it's no longer the cheapest bidder that wins military contracts). It did make me laugh to discover that British Army face-paint is now produced by the make-up firm L'Oreal (because you're worth it ... !). True.
And in most cases army kit is A LOT cheaper. My advice is to buy it new, however, as the second hand stuff is often well worn in, and worn out!
Personally - I use a mix. Mainly 'civvy' stuff (eg. bergen, boots, jacket, etc), combined with British Army cooking kit, lightweight trousers (still the best in my opinion) and ... this one's gonna make all you Woodlore knife folks wince ... a British Army jungle survival knife! (yeah, yeah, I hear you - big ol' chunk of metal but it does me proud!).
G
PS: would highly recommend the Swedish firm Haglofs for civvy kit, especially bergens and bivvys (thanks to Viking for the original tip off), British firm Snowsled for jackets (should already be familiar to Ray Mears fans), and Brasher for boots.