View Full Version : Ray or Lofty - who's the daddy?
Greetings All. A very tongue-in-cheek post this ... as obviously everyone has a preference, and ultimately, who cares? But anyway, just been having a 'discussion' with a friend of mine over who's the better bushcraft/survival guru - Ray Mears or John "Lofty" Wiseman? Must admit I haven't met either in person, though based on books alone, I'm torn between Ray's enthusiasm and empathy with nature, and Lofty's no-nonsense approach to 'getting it sorted.'
If you have an opinion, go for it - my personal leaning is towards Lofty, so bring it on - who's the daddy?!
G ;-)
tenbears10
19-08-2004, 15:52
Ray for bushcraft and lofty for survival. Or am I on the fence.
Bill
TheViking
19-08-2004, 15:59
Hi...
I respect them both. Ray is surely great (though I never met him) and haven't really read anything on Lofty. I will agree with tenbears10! :wink: As you all may know, Ray is not military educated, but Lofty is. (very well indeed, you know why :wink:)
SAS doesn't learn to build log cabins and whittle a ball in a cage. They learn only what's necessary to survive out there and if they want to learn bushcraft, they must do this in their sparetime.
I don't think Ray has learnt it in the tough way, but can survive just as much in any climate, as Lofty. Off course you can always learn more, but I believe they have learned everything basic (and advanced) needed. :wink: :biggthump
Brummy Stokes!
He's also ex forces but I think combines the best of both worlds excellently.
Just wish he'd do more TV work...
Hello Ginja,
Lofty isn't a bushcraft guru IMO, Bushcraft is having a deeper understanding of nature and the wild and living in it comfortably which is what Ray is all about. Lofty is a survival teacher not a bushcraft teacher, his books and his teachings are how to deal with a situation where your life and the lives of others may be at risk and you may need to employ survival skills to stay alive.
However both are very closely intertwined, it is a tough question as Lofty served with the SAS for many years teaching survival for the most part of it. However Ray has travelled all over the world discovering first hand what our ancestors did to survive and has studied bushcraft and survival from a very early age. My preference is for Ray as he is the one that started it off for me and I will always prefer the bushcraft side opposed to the survival.
All this is my opinions!
:biggthump
TheViking
19-08-2004, 16:10
I will always prefer the bushcraft side opposed to the survival.
Me too! :biggthump
Now that is news to me! Never heard of Brummy Stokes ... time for a quick Google :-)
(PS: in fact, based on experience my favourite would be Mick Tyler from the Hereford Breakaway Survival School - 30 years with the SAS as Lofty Wiseman's "unpublicised" right hand man. Really nice bloke, great sense of humour and mad as a hatter. Keeps you on yer toes ...! Just thought that Ray and Lofty would make a good comparison as they're probably the most famous/TV-friendly of the bunch. Though Chris Ryan is trying his best, bless him ...)
When I see questions like this posed on here I know the editing finger of one moderator or another is poised, ready to delete all I say so..................
Richard Graves
:o): :o): :o):
And
Mors Kochanski
All others are just ............... :yikes: :yikes: :yikes:
Brummy did a great series where a guy turned up in a brand new Land Rover and EVERY BIT OF KIT he could ever need!
Everyday, Brummy 'nicked' some kit so by the end of the week the guy had made his own shelter, pack, etc.
He taught not only how to survive but how to live with the countryside by being low impact and yet still be very comfortable and well fed.
He covered safety, recovery, foraging, how to use a knofe safely and look after it, how to use and prolong the use of your paid for kit.
Like I said, he combined both aspects.
When you search for info on him, if you find a video or DVD of the series, let me know and I'll dig out me credit card
That was called Lost in the woods martin, good series and much more 'real' than many I could mention.
Gary, you're a STAR!
Time to Google!
What about Hugh whats his face from that crappy show with Dermot wassname?
Hugh Mcmanners, not up to much IMO
Fallow Way
19-08-2004, 16:38
If I had to pick a guy who I feel inspires me in Bushcraft. It would have to be Juha.
Ray showed me the way i wanted to live my life, Juha teaches me how.
I used to think Ray was the dady, back in the early days. Now there seems to be this big thing about having the kit that he sells which defeats the meaning of it all for me. Though having said that this knife lofty has made isn't cheep either.
I still like all this idea about making baskets and other bits and bobs which lofty doesn't do (to my knowledge)
When I see questions like this posed on here I know the editing finger of one moderator or another is poised, ready to delete all I say so..................
He he, too right. :nana:
It's not just you though, anyone...
This is the sort of thread that deteriorates into slander and bad feeling. You guys seem to have the balance just right, it an opinion thing that's being discussed, just don't turn it into a chance to air personal grievances or let other people draw you into arguments.
The thread is fine, just keep it nice :biggthump
:You_Rock_
(**** southern belle accent) Why thank you kind sir! (flutters eyelashes)
Fallow Way
19-08-2004, 17:16
eh?
I’ve said my Mod bit, now my opinion…For me, right now it’s Ray. I was inspired by Lofty, had his book, did things out of it, it helped me dream of adventure and survival…Ray and his influence over the last years has made it a reality for me… If I had not gone on a Woodlore course I would not know all of you, this place probably would not exist and I would not be doing something I love. Well, probably!
So, for me, Ray, but I’ve huge appreciation for Loft….I even know his sister and hang out with his Nephews!!
:wink:
Forgot to mention Eddie McGee (may he always kindle his fire in that great big forest in the sky) and even before him Jack Hargreaves.
God I am sooooo impressionable!
OK inspiration would be Jack Hargreaves as it was him who first got me out and exploring Epping forest as a sprog.
Guru, Mors Kochanski.
Yeah, Jack was my first memory of the country ways...It's only now though that I really appreciate what my Dad used to force me to watch!
TheViking
19-08-2004, 17:57
Tone, did your dad teach you bushcraft?? :-) Wish my dad had did it! :wink:
Hi, just wanted to make clear that I had no intention of starting agruments here! And glad to see that none have started, more to the point! Keep it clean, people ...
Clearly, from the posts so far, it kinda depends on who gave you bushcraft/survival 'bug' in the first place - I must admit I started with Lofty, simply because I'm from Hereford and so naturally had an interest (dare I say sense of pride) in the SAS, etc. So for me, in the beginning it was a combination of wanting to be able to survive and live off the land, and to have the physical/mental toughness to 'rough it' in all weathers. Though I appreciate that if you've come through the Woodlore route, you're more likely to appreciate the more craft-based/ancestoral elements of what we all enjoy.
Not trying to state the obvious here, I'm just interested in people's different reasons for wanting to 'go down to the woods', as it were - and I think the old Ray or Lofty debate is a good way of drawing out personal preferences and motivations.
Though I have to say, the comment made about Ray Mear's branded equipment is spot on ... there does seem to be a heck of a lot of people all chomping at the bit to get their hands on a Woodlore knife! And not just because it's a fine piece of kit, if you know what I mean.
Reminds me of when Mick Tyler (Breakaway Survival, Hereford) told of how he survived in the Malayan jungle for 2 years, on and off, relying on nothing but a tempered-steel parang and a roll of gaffer tape. No frills - that always floats my boat!
Just a bit concerned about some of the 'equipment fetishism' that seems to go on, as if a Woodlore knife is somehow better than, say, a Gene-Ingram knife, just because Mr Mears has put his name to it. Sorry - being a bit contentious here (and kind of off-subject), but I do wonder how many people end up forking out on this kit, when they could do just as well with something at a fraction of the price.
Then again, Lofty has his ruddy great machete on sale ... so please excuse me whilst I go and eat my hat.
Keep 'em coming ... especially if you can recommend the names of any other 'gurus' - I'm all ears.
G
ChrisKavanaugh
19-08-2004, 18:03
Bushcraft, survival, backpacking or whatever you want to call our often overlapping outdoor pursuits has a history. Baden-Powell's scouting, the writings of Nessmuck, Kephardt, Angier et al laid the groundwork for those who came later. It's a major industry with equipment and a cottage industry with instructors offering their classes, books etc. to a very small market. There has been the inevitable backstabbing, most notably the controversy over Tom Brown's actual training, ironically by people who shouldn't be throwing stones in glass hoochies. A trip to the bookstore will produce dozens of ULTIMATE SURVIVALTEXTS, usually with catchy titles like THE ULTIMATE SURVIVAL TEXT. And of course everyone markets a knife garanteed to butcher a moose, throw up a log cabin and determine low tide for clamming. In the end it's the consumer's choice. You want to be Walter Mitty sweating inside a Ghilly suit or native scout sneaking up on sleeping grizzlys somebody is out there to accomadate your needs. I'm fond of Peter Bigfoot in Arizona :nana:
Hugh Mcmanners, not up to much IMO
No, but I like his nononsense style with the twonks on the show.
Yeah, Jack was my first memory of the country ways...It's only now though that I really appreciate what my Dad used to force me to watch!
Eee! Jack Hargreaves!
We're showing our ages now lads. :o):
I wouldn't sweat it about the kit meisters, that's their bag, doesn't mean you can't do things your way. Ray's making a few bob out of his fame, well I can't say I blame him - make hay whilst sun shines and all that.
Both from different backgrounds, on a one to one Lofty is a far nicer guy, down to earth sort.
Frogo
SquirrelBoy
19-08-2004, 20:06
I remember watching Les Hiddins (BushTucker Man) when I was younger and think he`s a pretty decent, down to earth bloke, knows his beans :biggthump
Ray and Lofty come from different backgrounds so you get different styles. No ones better than the other IMO.
Give me the hereford boy's anyday, Lofty, Brummy Stokes And 'Ginge' Tyler.
Being a survival instructor or running a school to the civilian market was once upon a time the domain of ex speical forces guys like these, with tons of knowledge, experience to back it up and charisma, sadly today is not so much the case, although there is still one or two out there, they are over whelmed with the bushcraft type "fashion" that has gripped the UK, looking good in the right shirt, the right knife, the right DVD collection, the right rucksack etc - horses for course though IMO,
Lofty's my daddy.
Chris
MagiKelly
19-08-2004, 22:10
Respect both but Eddie McGee is the daddy. I remember watching him skin a rabbit on children's TV. Lets see anyone do that now.
Lofty is the Daddy, Ray is the Mommy :naughty:
Magikelly remember it well - you couldnt do it these days - thought police and the nanny state wont let you
I'm not an officianado on his prog's but has anybody seen Ray skin or butcher on the box? I know he's chopped up the odd fish or deep fried a prawn or two but again proof of the pudding - of course I could be wrong maybe he has but I dont think so.
This isnt a swipe at Ray btw - I think his programmes are great and he has done alot to bring BUSHCRAFT to the public eye all I am merely doing is pointing out that HE - BEING THE LATEST - presenter of such programmes isn't allowed to show such things, or at least the BBC arent. No slur on Ray just on a society that has nothing better to worry about.
I have had the pleasure of either meeting and learning from most peoplle on this thread and must say the experience has been great, also Eddie Magees' book " no need to die " was my inspiration.
NOW if the question asked was - modern Survival Gurus or modern Bushcraft gurus - which this thread has really turned into, then I would say - Eddie Magee = Survival and Mors Kachanski = bushcraft, my daddy would then be Eddie Magee, ( sorry Lofty ) the ex paratrooper, but sadly left us now. All our best.
Whatever you choose to call your skills and training, at the end of the day it's a great life skill for undertaking your adventures, whatever and whoever your choice of title or teacher, as the sports brand people say - just do it.
But enjoy it,
Chris
I haved watched the survival/bushcraft mentors grow and flourish in the last few years, people who somehow touched on a feeling I had deep inside for as long as I can remember. John Wiseman's teachings come from years in the regiment, lessons learnt/lived day-to-day in a real world where mistakes cost lives. Lofty's charisma is real (like many ex-sf guys I have seen, Eddie Mc Gee included) they have lived what many can only imagine.
Ray Mears is a "green-man" for the millenium, he evokes the spirit of the greenwood. He has researched and learnt skills that have inspired many of us to chase the instict that lies dormant in most of the population to seek harmony and independence in the wild-wood. Many of the skills the Ray preaches can be learnt "off-the-shelf", Ray's base skills can be traced directly to works by Richard Graves (Bushcraft), Mors Kocansnski (Northern Bushcraft), Ellsworth Jaeger (Wildwood Wisdom) and Horace Kephart (Camping & Woodcraft).
My first memories of this magical world are of my step father, whose discreet countryside batism, I realised in later life was not particulaly legal, had a massive impact on my early years. In print my inspiration came from an author called Anthony Greenbank, the author of "Survival for Young People" (I still have my original copy), while not strictly bushcraft it still shaped much of what I believe/live today.
Neil
jamesdevine
20-08-2004, 10:25
Both these guys have inspired me as have many others. Major ones being Mors Kochnaski, Richard Graves, Nessmuk and Tom Brown jr. BP and Scouting has deffinitly played a part so he is up there as is my own dad.
There have been several others along the way that have tought me valuable lessons in survival and outdoor living Athonio from Wild-Live being an obvious one but I can not forget you guys and BCUK and if BCUK was a person he/she would deffinitly be the daddy because of all the combined knownlodge, wisdom and friendship without it I would not have discovered the most of the names above and the there wisdom or been inspired by the achievements of it's members and their adventures to go and "Just do it" myself.
James :You_Rock_
I remember watching Les Hiddins (BushTucker Man) when I was younger and think he`s a pretty decent, down to earth bloke, knows his beans :biggthump .
does any one know if "bushtucker man" ever produced any texts?
OK inspiration would be Jack Hargreaves as it was him who first got me out and exploring Epping forest as a sprog..
He was the man for me. The grandad everybody wanted.
http://www.britishblades.com/pics/jackhargreaves1.jpg
Great Pebble
20-08-2004, 17:20
I don't do spoons.....
'nuff said.
Neither. As any Dead Ringers listener will tell you, there is only one Daddy - and that's Brian Perkins.
Swampthing
25-08-2004, 13:29
does any one know if "bushtucker man" ever produced any texts?
I have a book called something like "Stories of Survival" by Les Hiddens (Aka BTM). It's not a manual in the manner of Lofty or Ray, but rather a collection of the stories that used to run as a thread throughout his series. Interesting in places. Clearly a very knowledgable guy.
ST
They both have so much knowledge that I don't it is hard to say. Who would I rather spend a week in the jungle with - Lofty by a mile.
Touching on an earlier post, our inspiration:
I have always wanted to get into the wild from an early age, my parents had no interest what-so-ever so I never realised my dream as a kid. The furthest I got was my tent in the back garden cooking beans (which I loved). I was also given a book for kids by Brian Hildreth, which I loved, and made my first survival tin using the book.
Then my attraction to women and then acid house clubs made me forget about my yearning for the outdoors. In my late teens I started travelling the world, and by my mid 20s I was a hippy drop-out walking about India with a cooking pot and a bed roll. Slightly spaced out I walked alone into the jungle of the western ghat mountains in southern india with a bag of rice. During the next two weeks I began to remember the longing for the wild I'd hidden deep inside. ANd when I ran out of rice, I realised that I really didn't have the first idea of how to survive. I didn't even have a compass or map.
When I came back to civilization I realised the stupidity of what I had just done, the locals thought I was mad, they didn't venture alone in the jungle and they never went in there at night... (due to animals and spirits)... I then made a promise to myself that I would learn the skills I needed to survive and travel through the same area again one day. In the last 10 years I have done and thought about little else. I have also realised danger of what I did back then, but without doing what I did i would never have found the outdoors again.
going back a step. I have sen ray butcher a dear on heros of the telemark but thats about it. When he was coking a rabbit they never once showed the rabbit apart from the tine part that he cut off once it was cooked
PS It looked like chicken
i know this is an old tread but i have just joined and i thought i would just add i have met lofty (he runs a school near me) and he is a dam fine bloke and does know a lot on both subjects (bushcraft/survival) the reason he does more survival is thats what he is paid to teach.
but as for who's the daddy thats down to personal pref both do no harm to the craft :-)
isnt lofty more like the grandaddy? :wink:
Great Pebble
09-10-2004, 17:06
There you are then.... He's survived longer than Ray so he's ahead on points :nana:
Motorbike Man
09-10-2004, 19:39
Having met Lofty, all be it briefly, I can definately agree and say he is a totally nice bloke and really down to earth, but for me personnally, his viewpoint is a bit....maybe too harsh. (Not in any way a critiscm, just a way of looking at how he was trained himself) I remember Jack Hargreave's well and actually met him a couple of times as a sproglet and just loved the stories and the obvious love he had for everything he did. I also remember my Dad taking me down to the woods and showing me stuff and trying to instill a love of the big wide outdoors and how to try and live in harmony with it rather than force it to your will. So for me, it has to be the likes of Bush Tucker Man and off course Ray, who over the last ten years or so has rekindled a love for some of the stuff I had forgotten about. But also, every single person I ever met outdoors, working on places Like Brownsea Island for the Dorset Wildlife Trust and also working for the BTCV as well who have given me little tips or told a story of something they did in their youth just keeps reminding me that the outdoors is a great place to be.
Brummy Stokes!
He's also ex forces but I think combines the best of both worlds excellently.
Just wish he'd do more TV work...
NOT LIKE THE CHILDISH "LOST IN THE WOODS"
I HOPE..........PRAY
Bushmaster
18-10-2004, 14:06
I know it is an old thread but I am a newbie.For me my inspiration was scouting for boys by robert baden powell.Ok there are some thimgs that are quite dated but as a young boy reading about the tenderfoots and adventures in the woods woke up a life long passion in me.For a boy of eight it was all a great adventure.And my ultimate hero........................My Grandad.He was my Jack Hargreeves Taking me all over the lakes and woods in Cumbria ,learning the value of nature of how to work with it rather then to fight against it.
Sniff.........I'm filling up now.I miss the old feller.:cry:
But at least i have taught myson and now my grandson is two I am itching to get him out there.:super:
Geoff.
Just out of interest,does Lofty teach bushcraft/survival,does he have a school ect.
bambodoggy
12-11-2004, 16:26
It's a tricky one, Lofty first got me into survival with his SAS Survival Handbook when I was a kid and I made my first survival kit from that. My dad was in the army and so I liked military things from an early age...I have a photo of me aged 3 in 70's brown teddybear pjs with my dad's size 9 boots (complete with the wrap around putties) and beret on!!!!
Having said that Ray has re-awoken my interest in the last few years and so I am equaly a fan of him.
But to me....the daddy of the woods has to be Tom Brown Jr and his "grandfather" Stalking Wolf.... his survival books are great although not as detailed as Ray's or Lofty's but his autobiographical books are a fab read....so much so that I was in New Jersey a few years back and just couldn't help going to see the Pine Barrens he was trained in even though it was a 250 mile round trip from northern NJ were I was staying!!!!
I have to say that the Scouts also helped a lot and gave me somewhere to try out all the things I'd be reading about.
Take it easy all...
Phil.
What about Mors Kochanski - he is one of the originals, out dates both Lofty and Mears.
Paganwolf
12-11-2004, 17:44
What about Mors Kochanski - he is one of the originals, out dates both Lofty and Mears.
He would get my vote :biggthump
I am also new on the thread which means I haven't yet read everything here (but will do).
Now jus before I come to the topic of "Ray or Lofty?":
Tedders I loved your story, it says a lot about how something deep in you never lets you forget it's there, it is also about being a beginner and doing extraordinary things without realizing you are, and it's only in retrospect, once you are more skilled, you are shocked to discover it was mad and heroic and you learned a lot from it.
I was always told you can't camp/bivouac in India, which is disappointing. You would not have gone to the jungle the way you did had you asked someone for advice. But you would have missed out on the experience...
About Ray and Lofty: Ithink someone (or several people may have) said this here before:
Lofty's career was in the military and his topic is, or at least was at first, how to survive in the wild in circumstances not of your own choice or as a soldier having to be trained for any unpredictable turn of event, including finding himself in the wild with no or minimal gear. Lofty's approach is on the face of things (but it may be only on the face of things) not romantic, or philosophical or about having a great time.
I will continue about Ray in my next post as I have to leave the computer for awhile...talk to you again soon then!
I am also new on the thread which means I haven't yet read everything here (but will do).
Now jus before I come to the topic of "Ray or Lofty?":
Tedders I loved your story, it says a lot about how something deep in you never lets you forget it's there, it is also about being a beginner and doing extraordinary things without realizing you are, and it's only in retrospect, once you are more skilled, you are shocked to discover it was mad and heroic and you learned a lot from it.
I was always told you can't camp/bivouac in India, which is disappointing. You would not have gone to the jungle the way you did had you asked someone for advice. But you would have missed out on the experience...
About Ray and Lofty: I think someone (or several people may have) said this here before:
Lofty's career was in the military and his topic is, or at least was at first, how to survive in the wild in circumstances not of your own choice or as a soldier having to be trained for any unpredictable turn of events, including finding himself in the wild with no or minimal gear. Lofty's approach is on the face of things (but it may be only on the face of things) not romantic, or philosophical or about having a great time.
Ray has presented in his TV programs survival stories of soldiers in past wars and he is a instructor with the RAF but there is more than just the practicalities of how to survive in his approach: it's about how to connect to nature, be/feel part of it, re-learn our ancestors' long-lost or more recently lost skills, observing wildlife, it branches out to all sorts of other areas of both inner and practical experience.
And although Ray often mentions the possibility of finding yourself in circumstances not of your own choice, his approach is also pretty much about choosing the wild deliberately, as a fulfilling way of life. I am sure Lofty knows about that side of things too and I am sure some in the military do too, but what they teach is just the practicalities, becauswe it's their approach.
Just as I am writing I try to imagine the two of them together in the wild, perhaps in challenging circumstances. I am sure they would both stay on top of things and perform superbly. I think they might be more "Lofty-like" than "Ray-like" both of them. Well...who knows?
Personally I would like to go on a course with both. Same with being on a trip.
Just out of interest,does Lofty teach bushcraft/survival,does he have a school ect.
Lofty got out the the survival business some time ago ;-)
Ed
Lofty got out the the survival business some time ago ;-)
EdThanks Ed.
Abbe Osram
12-11-2004, 21:47
Keep 'em coming ... especially if you can recommend the names of any other 'gurus' - I'm all ears.
G
Well, I would like to bring to your attention a guy which inspired me greatly 22 years ago when I heard for the first time about survival.
His name is Ruediger Nehberg. He is a german survivalist and humanrights fighter, for 30 years now is he doing one crazy and extreme mission after another. He is 68 years old and is planning to be dropped on his 70th birthday naked into the amazon rainforest without a knife or any kind of survival equipment, from there will he cross the forest on a length of 1500 km.
http://www.ruediger-nehberg.de/frameseite.htm
cheers
Abbe
:chill:
BIG-TARGET
12-11-2004, 23:54
I'm one of Ron & Karen Hood's (http://www.survival.com/) Hoodlums!!!!! :biggthump
I'm one of Ron & Karen Hood's (http://www.survival.com/) Hoodlums!!!!! :biggthump
It's just as well his name isn't Robin, otherwise you would of been a "merry man" :naughty: :o):
Well if were naming names - Preben Mortissen, ex danish para, he trained Lars Falts original team and so indirectly trained old Mearsy as well as other armies around the world and those on Vildmark too soon!!
He's been in the business since the 60's and has a wicked sense of humour!!
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v342/bearclaw/sweden1041.jpg
TheViking
13-11-2004, 12:38
It will have to be B.S. Christiansen. I've never met him but he is an extremely good SAS soldier from Denmark. He inspired me for the first time I saw him and he has taken 2 singers into wilderness climates. First trip was to Alaska and after that Death valley (for about 2 months). Second trip he was crossing Central America (the trip was for 1½ months).
In 1978 he became no. 3 on Rangerschool, in the states.
He's educated as danish SAS, pilot, camera man, electrician and diver. And he's only 53 now. :shock: Truly great man, although i've never met him. :o):
Picture here (http://www.eidoskompetenceudvikling.d k/fundanemt/site_graphics/billeder/bs.jpg) :biggthump