View Full Version : New Knife Ideas - Queries Stainless Steels
Hi everyone – I’ve got my mind set to ordering a new bushcraft knife and after recently talking to a respected maker am quite seriously thinking of having it made in stainless steel (shock/horror, some of you are no doubt running for the hills!). So far, apart from as a teenager, I’ve always used 01 tool steel knives, and have been very happy with them. I don’t suffer from shinny knife syndrome; however, it would be nice to have a really low maintenance knife and am therefore considering a stainless steel micarta combination with a flat grind.
Firstly, apart from ease of sharpening, what is the reason that bushcrafters are on the whole so anti stainless steel? (Apologies in advance if this is a stupid question)
and
What out of all the stainless steel would you recommend for a bushcraft knife and why?
Many thanks
ranger
TheViking
17-08-2004, 16:52
Hi...
I can definately recommend a Brusletto! Beautiful, but fairly cheap for the product you get. Most of their knifes are stainless and sold in high numbers. :wink: Bruslettos website (http://www.brusletto.no/). :biggthump
bushwacker bob
17-08-2004, 16:55
Firstly, apart from ease of sharpening, what is the reason that bushcrafters are on the whole so anti stainless steel? (Apologies in advance if this is a stupid question)
and
What out of all the stainless steel would you recommend for a bushcraft knife and why?
Many thanks
ranger
The main arguement against stainless from bushy purists,is that they're not as easy to spark a fire steel with.This is remidied by carrying either the striker provided or another backup knife like a SAK or opinel which most do in anycase. Stainless makes perfectly good bushcraft knives as many on this site will vouch for.In a saltwater/estuary type of environment its the steel of choice. I don't know which steel is best as there is lots of variations.British Blades would be able to give you at least a dozen answers on that :rolmao:
There is also an arguement that Carbon is traditional and gets a better edge but there again flint is sharper than bronze or copper.
What out of all the stainless steel would you recommend for a bushcraft knife and why?
Many thanks
ranger
I had a bit of a discussion on this a while back, I have been using knives made from D2 for quite a while and although not a stainless they are pretty close, the question that I asked was about S30V, Martyn and The General from BB were very helpfull as were Hoodoo and Schwert.
I think the general outcome of the question is that S30V is as good as D2 and as a result of this I have ordered a knife made from S30V.
The likes of Chris Reeve and Gene Ingram (Gene Ingram to order) are now making knives in S30V as opposed to 01 and D2 so it has to have something to offer apart from stainless quality, from the data that Martyn sent me and the tests done on S30V by the General it appears to perform in as good a way as D2 if not better.
Hopefully I will be taking possession of a Benchmade Activator soon which is made in S30V and if you ask our esteemed American colleagues they have a a good respect for S30V as well, Good Luck in your search :wave:
The main arguement against stainless from bushy purists,is that they're not as easy to spark a fire steel with.This is remidied by carrying either the striker provided or another backup knife like a SAK or opinel which most do in anycase. Stainless makes perfectly good bushcraft knives as many on this site will vouch for.In a saltwater/estuary type of environment its the steel of choice. I don't know which steel is best as there is lots of variations.British Blades would be able to give you at least a dozen answers on that :rolmao:
There is also an arguement that Carbon is traditional and gets a better edge but there again flint is sharper than bronze or copper.
The Fallkniven F1 is made out of VG10 (I think that this is classed as a stainless) as is the H1 and there are not many knives that I have ever come across that shower better sparks than them.
The Viking mentioned a good manufacturer in Brusletto, I have had one for 11 years and it is still superb, but I am still experimenting as you do, one thing is that these do not spark overly well so as Bob mentioned you would have to carry a striker with them. :o):
The problem with the super stainless steels (S30V, VG10, CPM440V, D2 ...) is that they are hard, making them hard to sharpen. Add to that a flat grind and you have a heck of an area of metal that youa re working on. OK, diamond and ceramics are up to the job but they are a lot harder to work with than carbon steel.
I would say that sharpening a super steel stainless is not something for the beginner to do.
Tantalus
17-08-2004, 17:18
you had a look at the northstar over on british blades ranger?
http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=4859
the discussion about stainless vs carbon goes way too many directions for me to follow
but to the best of my knowledge nothing is truly "stainless"
given our climate and the conditions that are encountered in bushcrafty situations i would not make a big issue out of stainless but place more weight on ease of sharpening, strength and reliability, if it happens to be stainless as well then thats fine by me :wink:
this is of course just my opinion and as i say i am no expert on steels
happy hunting
Tant
Firstly, apart from ease of sharpening, what is the reason that bushcrafters are on the whole so anti stainless steel? (Apologies in advance if this is a stupid question)
and
What out of all the stainless steel would you recommend for a bushcraft knife and why?
Many thanks
ranger
Ahhh, that old chestnut. ;)
Well, I'll divide my answer into 3 sections, practical, artistic and spiritual.
OK, if you look at a scandi ground blade, the edge is usually around 40 degrees. That's very thin, but very, very sharp. It's also ideal for woodwork - the main function of a bushcraft knife. Bushcraft knives get used hard, then get whacked into wood with battons and get generally abused. So the knife needs to be tough. For the most part, carbon steel can be thought of as tougher than stainless, not harder, but tougher. Stainless can be hard and brittle, though not always. For a scandi style blade, abused with battons, the knife may be prone to chipping. The hardness of stainless, would make the blade very difficult to reprofile yourself, though not impossible. If the edhe of a carbon steel blade, gets dinked or rolled, which is a real possibility, it's a relatively easy job to re-hone a new edge onto it. A tough thing to do with a stainless blade. For the same reasons, stainless can be hard to sharpen, probably requiring diamond hones. That's OK, but you may not always have diamond hones. What if all you have it a bit of old rock? You can use it on a carbon blade, but forget it with a stainless blade, you'll be there all week - longer! So, why carbon, well ease of sharpening, easy to maintain and tough.
Artistic, well shiny stainless is a product of the 20th century and it screams of it. Carbon, over time, takes on a patina, a natural finish, etched into the blade from acids in things you cut. It add a beauty you'll never see on a stainless blade. The carbon knife, looks every bit the earthy, object of natural beauty. The stainless blade will always be pristine and shiny.
Spiritual, well bushcrafters tend to like to do things the hard way. Fire by friction or flint and steel, rather than a lighter. It's about the skills used to create such, rather than just getting the fire going. Same with a knife, maintaining a carbon knife in good order, is a real skill in itself, one that cant easily be practiced with a stainless blade. The carbon knbife is understood, iron ore, charcoal, heat, hammers and anvil - all very earthy, natural things. Stainless, is a 20th century alloy of chrome and iron and others - it has no soul.
That said, nothing wrong with stainless, use it if that's what you want. it'll make a good knife. Go for Crucible S30v, the best of the bunch. ;)
The Fallkniven F1 is made out of VG10 (I think that this is classed as a stainless) as is the H1 and there are not many knives that I have ever come across that shower better sparks than them.
Quite right. It has nothing to do with stainless, you can get sparks off a firesteel with flint, broken glass, broken pottery, housebricks, tungsten router bits, - just about any hard sharp surface - that's all you need.
However, you will never get a spark from a stainless blade, by striking it against a piece of natural flint.
TheViking
17-08-2004, 17:26
Hi...
Does anyone know what steel Brusletto do their knives in?
you had a look at the northstar over on british blades ranger?
http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=4859
the discussion about stainless vs carbon goes way too many directions for me to follow
but to the best of my knowledge nothing is truly "stainless"
given our climate and the conditions that are encountered in bushcrafty situations i would not make a big issue out of stainless but place more weight on ease of sharpening, strength and reliability, if it happens to be stainless as well then thats fine by me :wink:
this is of course just my opinion and as i say i am no expert on steels
happy hunting
Tant
Just for clarity, so everyone realises, the North Star is made from A2 carbon tool steel. It's quite similar in composition to O1.
masongary44
17-08-2004, 17:32
I have a Carbon Steel knife hand made by a guy called ben Orford, a lovelyu knife, V.smilar to the WS and a FallKniven F1 (just taken delivery of it).
Where i still prefer the shape and design of the Ben Orford knife, the FallKniven kicks out the best shower of sparks i have ever seen from my fire steel, the carbon steel is a bit weak in comparison...
I have not tried to sharpen the F1 yet for the reasons mentioned, stainless is supposed to be harder to sharpen, and it has a convex grind, that being said, it does seem to hold the edge for longer...
there are good and bad points to both....
masongary44
17-08-2004, 17:33
If someone can point me oin the direction of how to put a picture in a post, i will dump a picture of both knives (should you be interested)
dataphage
17-08-2004, 17:39
The Brusletto knives are made from Sandvik steel also known as 12c27. I have an EKA W11 made of the same stuff & can testify to its amazing edge holding and sharpenability. I also have a Fallkniven F1 which is laminated VG10 steel. This too is pretty awesome stuff but seems to be a little more prone to edge rolling than the Sandvik - this is easily sorted with a minute or two on a fine stone & stropping the edge properly, but I still prefer the Sandvik steel it just seems to get sharper than the VG10.
I have heard a couple of arguments against stainless; it can be too hard to sharpen in the field, and it doesn't get the same fine edge as a carbon blade. Both have not been borne out by experience and I find that the trade off of having a low-maintainence blade with stainless to be preferable - this seems to be personal thing with everyone having a different opinion.
The edge profiles and handle material & shape will dictate far more how useful the knife is. Flat grind is great for ease of re-sharpening but can be time-consuming to repair if the edges get damaged. I changed my W11 to a convex edge after trying the F1's convex edges and have found that the knife stays sharper for longer and have not looked back.
I have found that using a micarta handled knife for extended heavy tasks can give me blisters this has not been the case with wood. Micarta is all but indistructible but I still prefer the wood and its not so difficult to look after - all you have to do is oil it every now & then which I do with the whole knife stainless steel or not. :-)
If you want a Brusletto from the UK check out Attleborough Accessories - they have a number of them including the rather beautiful NÅTID - but if you buy the last one I'll not be pleased, I've been saving my pennies... :money:
Tantalus
17-08-2004, 17:41
Just for clarity, so everyone realises, the North Star is made from A2 carbon tool steel. It's quite similar in composition to O1.
lol thanx martyn i just spent half an hour looking that up :)
from Mike Stewarts post on BB (Maker of North Star)
Most of the BRK&T line is made from A-2 tool steel. I find this to be the ideal steel that is avalable and I know it like the back of my hand. I know what it will do , how to get it to do it and I have never had it fail me. I have made knives from many other steels and still do(we do a lot of work for other knife companies). I am not a fan of stainless steels . I have made thousands of knives in every stainless you can name and none of them , so far , will take and hold an edge like tool steels. I am still looking for one that will and if I ever find one ,I will use it.
so no the North Star is not stainless
Tant
dataphage
17-08-2004, 17:54
Good link about blade steel:
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~umschm08/aboutsteel.html
Things not on there:
The Carbon V steel listed at the bottom is most likely 0170-6 (aka 50100-B), currently also used by Marbles. It is a good high carbon chrome vandium alloy that takes a good heat treatment and in the words of one punter "cuts like a shrieking witch". it hardens to about 58 Rockwell C but is a bit prone to rust.
CPM-S30V - Stainless, hard, the current favourite stainless amongst collectors & users alike. Might be expsensive as the metallurgic & heat treat process is a bit involved.
A2 - High carbon tool steel with a fine grain, again pone to rust but with a reputation for being sharper than just about any other alloy.
Carbon:
http://www4.gvsu.edu/triert/images5/osfgreenmicarta1b.jpg
Stainless:
http://www4.gvsu.edu/triert/images7/osfstainless1b.jpg
I like 'em both! :lol:
You know Hoodoo, if you got too many knives there, I'll happily take a few off you!
Seriously though, those are mighty fine looking knives!
Me likey North Star!
How much, where from and how long (wait!)?
Tantalus
17-08-2004, 18:29
north star prices start at $105 (just under £60)
with a zillion options to choose from :shock:
see thread here
http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showpost.php?p=64925&postcount=4
as far as i know they are putting the sheathes together at this very moment so shouldnt be long to wait
Tant
You know Hoodoo, if you got too many knives there, I'll happily take a few off you!
I don't know why but people are always making that offer to me. :?: :-)
but surely it's the younger people on here that will live long enough to make best use of them. Not some guy with his own WS not to mention the wife that enjoys the same things as him
but surely it's the younger people on here that will live long enough to make best use of them. Not some guy with his own WS not to mention the wife that enjoys the same things as him
... yeah, a guy that owns a WS Woodlore that's back with Woodlore coz the scales went like they were made of banana wood! :roll:
... yeah, a guy that owns a WS Woodlore that's back with Woodlore coz the scales went like they were made of banana wood! :roll:
Lot of whinges about the QC with WS recently, go and get yourself an Ingram or an OSF you won't regret it and you get a choice of steels with Gene as well as input on the design and it will still be cheaper :biggthump
The General
18-08-2004, 01:38
I don't know why but people are always making that offer to me. :?: :-)
You as well? :o):
I don't know why but people are always making that offer to me. :?: :-)
Really? Cant think why. :roll: :wink: :rolmao:
Thanks for such helpful replies everyone. I’ve certainly been given a few things to think of and will investigate further Crucible S30v. My knowledge of steels is rudimentary at best and my brain soon gets to the information overload stage, the science of it gets quite complicated.
From the replies you’ve all given I can see it might be helpful to have a section of the spine stippled or chequered (as on a gun stock) to aid with using a fire steel.
Also, out of interest, how do 01 tool steel and A2 carbon steel differ (non technical replies greatly appreciated).
ranger
dataphage
18-08-2004, 13:49
The difference is in the chemical composition. See link below:
http://www.bladegallery.com/information/info_steel.asp
A2 has more carbon and so more carbides, which are the seriously hard bits of the alloy are involved with the majority of the edge holding properties.
A2 also has more chromium in and so will be moderatly more resistant to rust. It also has more vanadium which will help in the carbide forming process in the alloy and help attain & keep a fine edge. In practise the only difference you will probably see between the 2 is the rusting. With care & attention that won't happen.
Thanks for such helpful replies everyone. I’ve certainly been given a few things to think of and will investigate further Crucible S30v. My knowledge of steels is rudimentary at best and my brain soon gets to the information overload stage, the science of it gets quite complicated.
The question I would be asking is, given that carbon steel is so suitable for all sorts of reasons, why do you want one made from stainless? Rather than as "whats so good about carbon?", I'd be asking "whats so good about stainless?". :)
From the replies you’ve all given I can see it might be helpful to have a section of the spine stippled or chequered (as on a gun stock) to aid with using a fire steel.
The only factors with firesteels is hard and sharp. So long as the spine is well hardened and it has good square (not rounded) corners, that's all that matters.
Burnt Ash
18-08-2004, 22:42
The main arguement against stainless from bushy purists,is that they're not as easy to spark a fire steel with.
Nonsense! The only requirements to produce sparks from a Firesteel are:
1) that the material you strike it with is hard enough (and any cutlery steel is more than hard enough).
2) the 'edge' or surface roughness is sufficient to produce the friction required and to throw off very fine shavings of the Firesteel material.
Also, of course,
3) one's technique must be up to the job!
The main advantage of plain carbon cutlery steels over their stainless counterparts is that they seem to be easier to sharpen.
Burnt Ash
bushwacker bob
19-08-2004, 08:50
:rolmao: I did say bushy purists!
I'll happily use any knife that is sharp.
Like good antiques, a carbon blade will develop a pleasing patina with use and part of the pleasure of owning a knife over a long period is enjoying the aestetics of your purchase as well as its durability and usefulness.IMHO
my own current knife is made from 440c :yikes: Many knife buffs wouldn't buy a tool made from such steel.It suits me tho' and I'm quite happy to use it(until my North Star arrives)
tenbears10
19-08-2004, 09:08
Nonsense! The only requirements to produce sparks from a Firesteel are:
1) that the material you strike it with is hard enough (and any cutlery steel is more than hard enough).
2) the 'edge' or surface roughness is sufficient to produce the friction required and to throw off very fine shavings of the Firesteel material.
Also, of course,
3) one's technique must be up to the job!
The main advantage of plain carbon cutlery steels over their stainless counterparts is that they seem to be easier to sharpen.
Burnt Ash
I'm not sure I agree Burnt Ash. I use my leatherman wave with an army model firesteel but the straight edge blade hardly throws a spark whereas the serrated blade works a treat. They have the same edge profile on the back of the blade but they are different steels or at least have a different finish on them.
Bill
I'm not sure I agree Burnt Ash. I use my leatherman wave with an army model firesteel but the straight edge blade hardly throws a spark whereas the serrated blade works a treat. They have the same edge profile on the back of the blade but they are different steels or at least have a different finish on them.
Bill
Not so on mine - both blades have the same finish, but the spine profile is different. The straight edge blade on my Wave has a secondary grind on the spine (not sharp, and delivered like that from the factory), and are therefore not square.
The serated blade throws a good shower of sparks, better than the straight edge blade, but only because it has good square (not rounded) corners - like Martyn said, that's all that matters.
my own current knife is made from 440c :yikes: Many knife buffs wouldn't buy a tool made from such steel.
440C isn't a bad tool steel ...... now 420, or AUS6 :nono: ... I wouldn't use it for a sword, but for a small knife, 440C is fine, a little more work to sharpen, but that balances with less work to maintain as it doesn't need washing and oiling and rubbing as much as a non stainless carbon steel
The General
19-08-2004, 22:27
440C is a very underated steel, its rather good in fact.
Mike Stewart
19-08-2004, 22:49
I have to agree about 440C.
It is underrated. I have made lots of knives with a lot of different steels in the last 27 years and 440C is my second favorite in all the Stainless Steel Alloys that are avalible right now. With proper Heat Treat , Temper , and Cryo you can get all the performance out of it that you would expect from a Stainless Alloy. I think that 440C has been overshadowed by all of the Supersteels that are very popular right now. Folks touted AUS-8 when it came avalible, then the ATS/CPM stuff came out. This somehow religated all the 440's being lumped together as just production steels. This falling by the wayside of 440C was because it didn't have the exotic appeal of steels that had more prefix's and suffix's with the numbers.
The mark of a good blade is in the hands of the maker not the steel mill.
Just my two cents,
Mike.........
tenbears10
19-08-2004, 23:09
Not so on mine - both blades have the same finish, but the spine profile is different. The straight edge blade on my Wave has a secondary grind on the spine (not sharp, and delivered like that from the factory), and are therefore not square.
The serated blade throws a good shower of sparks, better than the straight edge blade, but only because it has good square (not rounded) corners - like Martyn said, that's all that matters.
Have had another look and I stand corrected. There is much more of a square edge on the serrated blade.
Does this mean that when people talk about filing a knife to use a fire steel all they mean is to create a square edge to the spine? I suppose so.
Ok you learn something everyday. Sorry for doubting you Burnt Ash.
Bill
Have had another look and I stand corrected. There is much more of a square edge on the serrated blade.
Does this mean that when people talk about filing a knife to use a fire steel all they mean is to create a square edge to the spine? I suppose so.
Ok you learn something everyday. Sorry for doubting you Burnt Ash.
Bill
Bill are you talking about the back edge of the scalloped blade or the back edge of the saw blade, because the back edge of the saw blade can throw some awesome sparks :wave:
tenbears10
20-08-2004, 00:02
Bill are you talking about the back edge of the scalloped blade or the back edge of the saw blade, because the back edge of the saw blade can throw some awesome sparks :wave:
The back of the saw, file and serrated blade all work well Leon but the straight knife doesn't have a square spine and so is'nt as good. I thought it was due to it being different steel but that's not the case.
All in all there are several ways of getting good sparks with it and I got a case which should hold the wave and a maglite AAA but the fire steel fits really well instead of the torch (mine was killed by some leaky duracells).
Bill
The General
20-08-2004, 02:00
I have to agree about 440C.
It is underrated. I have made lots of knives with a lot of different steels in the last 27 years and 440C is my second favorite in all the Stainless Steel Alloys that are avalible right now. With proper Heat Treat , Temper , and Cryo you can get all the performance out of it that you would expect from a Stainless Alloy. I think that 440C has been overshadowed by all of the Supersteels that are very popular right now. Folks touted AUS-8 when it came avalible, then the ATS/CPM stuff came out. This somehow religated all the 440's being lumped together as just production steels. This falling by the wayside of 440C was because it didn't have the exotic appeal of steels that had more prefix's and suffix's with the numbers.
The mark of a good blade is in the hands of the maker not the steel mill.
Just my two cents,
Mike.........
I'm guessing your other fav stainless steel is Sandvick 12C27 Mike? Just putting my steel guru powers to the test! :wink:
What? A bushcraft knife in Stainless steel? You Heretic! But if you must:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~eraaij/osfats34.jpg
Osf Knife, lignum vitae scales, 2/3 flat zero grind in ATS-34 steel. Will shave a mouse while it sleeps :wink:
-Emile
Mike Stewart
20-08-2004, 16:05
Emile,
That is a beaufiful knife. You are most likely right about the mouse shaving. It looks like a real cutter.
Wayne,
you are corresct about my first choice in Stain Resistant alloys. I can get some remarkable Performance out of 12C27. Takes a razor edge--Holds that edge--Easy to re-sharpen. It does need a complicated Heat Treat and Temper to achieve the desired result but It is very consistant.
Mike........
Burnt Ash
20-08-2004, 17:07
Will shave a mouse while it sleeps :wink:
-Emile
What a delightful turn of phrase: "sharp enough to shave a mouse while it sleeps".
Interesting stuff on steels, BTW. There was a time not so very long ago when 440C was regarded as the dog's b***ocks and used by many top makers. I had a fixed blade from Chris Reeve (when he was in Durban) that he called the 'Backpacker'. That was in 440B. It was a great little knife and cut pretty well, though I'm sure that 440B isn't Mr Reeve's first choice of steel these days.
Burnt Ash
Nice pic and nice knife Emile :biggthump