View Full Version : Waterstone vs diamond/ceramic
Mr Mears talks about using waterstones in his books but sells diamond/ceramic on t'website.
What are the relative pros and cons?
I currently use a Lansky system but whilst I get em sharp I can never get razor, any (non techie!) tips welcome.
Both have many pros and cons. In the end it comes down to personal preference...
I use a DC4 (ceramic) personally and then strop on the case, which seems to work for me.
When you sharpen it leaves a wire on the edge which can blunt the edge and ruin all your hard work, stropping removes the wire.
The nice thing about the ceramic/diamond hones is that the nickle plate holding the diamond dust makes the stone very stong and hard to break. Unless you smash it or lose it, a ceramic or diamond hone will last a lifetime with little to no care. I know of one carpenter who keeps his ceramic hones on the shed windowsill outside and the carbon steel (he doesn't use stainless blades) just rusts off the surface!
Plus the DC3 and DC4 are pretty light weight and nice and small. My DC4 lives in my pocket whenever I take my puuku anywhere...
I have always taught that a diamond stone takes off more metal and as such effects the longevity of a blade while waterstones are a little more forgiving. Att he end of the day as the guys say there are pros and cons to each system you just need to find what suits you best and what suits your knife!
I have always taught that a diamond stone takes off more metal and as such effects the longevity of a blade while waterstones are a little more forgiving. Att he end of the day as the guys say there are pros and cons to each system you just need to find what suits you best and what suits your knife!
Yes, using diamond regularly will wear out the blade sooner ... but that's what I love about the DC04 package because I get a medium/fine ceramic and a medium/coarse diamond.
I like diamond hones for sharpening really dull knives that have a high Rockwell hardness. They are also great if you want to "rough sharpen" a knife. They leave nice microserrations that are good for sliceing things like tomatoes and meat. They are also good for reprofiling blades but I have worn out several lansky diamond hones (adapted to my GATCO sharpener) by reprofiling high Rockwell knives. One other thing I like about diamond hones is that they often come in small packages which makes them great for field carry.
C_Claycomb
16-08-2004, 13:24
Water stones are only really practical for bench sharpening. The idea of cutting one in half and carting it around for field sharpening is utter rubbish, even if it is taught on certain courses. It can be done, but WHY would you want to?!? Diamond and ceramic stones are so much more convenient in the field.
In the capacity of bench sharpening, water stones are great. They are relatively cheap, and come in a wide range of grits, not just "Coarse, Medium and Fine".
If all you sharpen is bushcraft knives then something like the DC4 could be all you need, but if you also have chisels, planes, axes, etc, then a set of water stones will be very worth while. You can buy several grits for the cost of a ceramic bench stone too. The main down side is that they are a bit messy and don't stay flat, they need to be dressed every so often. That said, many ceramic stones aren't really flat. The bench stones are, but many pocket hones are not. I wouldn't touch one of my fine chisels with a DC4!! :yikes:
Lurch, sorry I can't give any good tips for the Lansky system. I have never even handled one :roll:. I can only think that you could need to strop the edge, that there is a wire that needs removing. I haven often had a knife that seems a bit dull after sharpening suddenly become razor like after a quick strop.
I agree Chris ... the idea of cutting a waterstone seems a little odd to me.
tenbears10
16-08-2004, 14:11
and me.
Who has a gransfors round 'puck' like stone? Well I made one for a fraction of the cost by cutting the end off an axminster combination stone and the rest of the stone is still good for home sharpening.
Bill
The General
16-08-2004, 14:15
I use diamond for stock removal and emergency edges. I use ceramic for just about all else. Even a fine diamond is like a course ceramic in my opinion. The DMT range is great. I use a fine/course duo folder for field work and a pocket ultra fine to give the edge a polish. The results are just about acceptable to me. I need to accept that the badgers are not in the slightest bit interested in how well my knife shaves arm hair! :lol:
and me.
Who has a gransfors round 'puck' like stone? Well I made one for a fraction of the cost by cutting the end off an axminster combination stone and the rest of the stone is still good for home sharpening.
BillMe! And I really like it! The rubber shells protect it and keep your leg dry when you use it and I didn't have to knacker me saw to make it!:nana:
If all you sharpen is bushcraft knives then something like the DC4 could be all you need, but if you also have chisels, planes, axes, etc, then a set of water stones will be very worth while.
Nah if you're sharpening, Chisels, Planes, Axes, etc you want Tormek Sharpening System :P
They do make small pocket waterstones that are fairly light. I have a couple, a 4000 and a 1000. Much better than cutting up a big one which never made sense to me. Good for quick touch up of a scandi blade.
Hoodoo as the new God of all thing Convex - what do you use in the field for them? I have a leather pad made of sole leather and this works well but I would appreciate your wisdom there.
I carry a Spyderco 303MF with me everywhere, it's thin, tough and does all you need in a portable sharpener for keeping a blade with a good edge, unless you've completely knackered your blade ... and then you ought to start considering that you've got the wrong knife ... waterstones generally need to be kept in a waterbath and are fragile ... not good for carrying around in your pocket
http://store1.yimg.com/I/bestknives_1805_109057568
Hoodoo as the new God of all thing Convex - what do you use in the field for them? I have a leather pad made of sole leather and this works well but I would appreciate your wisdom there.
What size and how thick is the leather Gary? ... you could try getting some diamond paste to go with that leather and/or spray mount some Wet'n'dry to one side of it
The leather I use is about 11/2 wide and about 12 inches long (like a ruler) - its 5 mil thick but its proper sole leather so its incredably tough stuff.
Thus far I has worked fine as a strop for re-edging the convex in the field but I was just wondering what others use.
For base camp ect I now have a hoodoo hone so thats taken care of.
Gary, I carry those little wooden hones. They weigh almost nothing and you can easily carry a few slips of sandpaper to keep your knives sharp for weeks. The main reason I made them was for field carry although at home, I clamp them in the vise and use them routinely. Often I clamp the knife in the vise and hold the hone in my hand to sharpen.
Have you guys seen those erasers that you can use to clean ceramic rods and stones. Very cool! No more scouring cleaner!
What size are those blocks then? My base camp set is about the size of a paper back.
Les Marshall
16-08-2004, 20:14
I use a diamond stone, never had any problems with it (that'l change now i've said that), I hone with a ceramic honer. But as the guys have said, it's all down to personal preference. :pack:
Ok, got the ruler out. Lesseee, which side is metric...? :?:
Right. There it is in m&m's. :wink:
I got about 11.5 cm long, 3.7 cm wide, and around 2 cm tall (not including the pad). You can make them any size you want, eh? :uu:
Cheers Hoodoo, I am sure they can be made any size but I would wonder if a too smaller size would encumber rather than enhance performance. Mine ar roughly the same size as yours btw - so I guess I wil have to go smaller just to see.
Anyway cheers.
Right , I don't use my knife very often and its as blunt as owt ( shock horror )
When I was a lad my Dad had loads of whetstones and oilstones for his chisels , flat they were and about the size of a bar of chocolate
I've scoured the B&Q's and what have you but can't find one anywhere
Surely there's a high street diy store that sells them ?
C_Claycomb
17-08-2004, 08:58
The problem is that the high street stores tend to only sell carborundum stones.
Best bet would be to mail order from Tilgear in Cufley, Axminster, or someone similar.
Tabwell tools in Bakewell had good stones, but they are hardly a common highstreet store :roll:
Take a look at www.axminster.co.uk ... fantastic stuff there at a good price.
For a DC04, this place ahas good prices: http://www.tregor.co.uk/dc4.html
All good stuff.
Even though I have just shaved the back of my hand following post Lansky stropping, I have ordered a DC04 and waterstone starter kit to have a go at the different methods.
I have always taught that a diamond stone takes off more metal and as such effects the longevity of a blade while waterstones are a little more forgiving. Att he end of the day as the guys say there are pros and cons to each system you just need to find what suits you best and what suits your knife!
Gary knows that I am a fan of waterstones, but they have a place, have one or two at home, but for field maintenance use a ceramic. :-)
Gary knows that I am a fan of waterstones, but they have a place, have one or two at home, but for field maintenance use a ceramic. :-)thought you were using a japanese water stone on the Dartmoor trip to sort out your axe?:wink:
thought you were using a japanese water stone on the Dartmoor trip to sort out your axe?:wink:
Yep indeed, but have recently had good experience of the one of the spyderco ceramic stones, very impressive and hard as hell. They don't appear to take off quite as much as a diamond stone but can put one hell of an edge on (I will always carry a slipstone or a 2X2" combi waterstone anyway).
One question about ceramic hones...
A friend uses a Japanese ceramic rod system and he dropped one of the rods. Ended up with 20 rods.
All rather short.
Are they all as fragile as that? And expensive?
Depends - that smaller rods and sheets can be quite delicate but the larger stones are quite tough. The ceramic/diamond combo is very strong because of the sheet metal bonded to one side.
C_Claycomb
17-08-2004, 15:57
I can't comment on how good they are, but I did see something at the Blade show a couple years back called CeraHone, an aluminium oxide on an aluminium substrate, designed specifically to overcome the breakage problem of pure ceramics.
A quick google search shows that they are still around, but I didn't delve enough to get a feel for how good they are.
Hey, Lithril, Tormek are nice if you have deep pockets, possibly the best thing for doing gouges, but I see that kind of tool as an addition to bench stones, not a substitute. Apart from anything, I hate the idea of having to rely on a jig to sharpen stuff, its like never taking the training wheels off a bike. Free hand sharpening is a wonderful skill to learn :-) (says the eternal C/D grade student :roll: )
I dunno Gary. The small hones have always worked well for me, at home or in the field.
http://www4.gvsu.edu/triert/images7/axehoning2b.jpg
I confess that I don't like DMT or anyone elses diamond hones very much. They start off rather coarse and nasty, then wear down quite quickly and rumble along like half used sandpaper for ages. The one exception is for sharpening carbide cutters - the harder the material, the better diamond seems to cut it.
The great thing about waterstones is that they are soft and wear down steadily exposing new sharp edges that give a really clean cut. The real woodworkers out there will know that garnet paper is way better than sandpaper or the new synthetic papers for exactly the same reason.
But horses for courses. Waterstones are useless in the field, so get a ceramic sharpener or take a hoodoo hone with some spare wet and dry paper. Wet and dry on plate glass is excellent for flattening the back of chisel and plane blades, so it's well upto maintaining a knife edge.
BTW - the tormek's a good tool, popular in schools and the like which have to sharpen dozens of blades regularly with minimum effort but I'd not put any of my good japanese chisels on one :o):
Cheers
The spyderco ceramic stones are basically made by Coors in Colorado I believe ..... guess what else they make? ..... no not the beer :-P
The spyderco ceramic stones are basically made by Coors in Colorado I believe ..... guess what else they make? ..... no not the beer :-P
They were involved in the development of the reentry tiles for the Space Shuttle.
more or less ... way I heard it they are basically the same thing ... same basic material and same process ....... point being ... their tough
OK.
I 'fess up.
I am stoopid.
On a DC4, which is the ceramic?
Stop laughing!
That's not a stoopid question at all! A lot of people ask the exact same thing!
The diamond side is the shiny side (the diamond is embedded in nickel) while the grey side is the ceramin side.
I dont own a DC4 Lurch but ceramic is usaully denoted by being white - although I am sure there will be loads of answers shortly!
Cheers chaps.
I figured it was probably the shiny one, but....
...the doubt set in!
Incidentally the other side is brown with sparkly bits in.
Cheers chaps.
I figured it was probably the shiny one, but....
...the doubt set in!
Incidentally the other side is brown with sparkly bits in.
mr dazzler
28-08-2004, 22:30
Waterstones were an important way for me to learn how to sharpen (plane irons & chisels) because you have to maintain a steady angle, (or get a gouged surface as they are so soft). I wore out my first combi stone (well part of it delaminated and broke, the 800 grit side being only 4 or 5 mil thick after much usage) I kept a 1200 grit piece (about the size of a tic tac box) to polish-finish axes etc. By the way the 1200 dust left over from truing on glass and abrasive paper is good for stropping. (I've dry-stropped gouges with waterstone dust on soft wood board - after a few seconds you see your face in the metal, and it is sharp. Also you can buy small Jap w/s slipstones about the size of a fag packet that you could put inside a glasses case or tin to carry in your pocket. Anyway what would you use to cut a waterstone in 2 ?? :?: Neither use nor ornament
Hi Lurch
on the DC4 whetstone the shiny metal side is the dimond side!!!!!! the brown side is the ceramic side the sparkly bits you can see on the brown side are synthetic sapphires
Cheers chaps.
I figured it was probably the shiny one, but....
...the doubt set in!
Incidentally the other side is brown with sparkly bits in.
Hi Lurch
the sparkly bits you can see on the brown side are synthetic sapphires
Ooooo!
The things y'learn eh?
demographic
19-04-2005, 23:31
Sorry for dragging up old threads but....
I work as a joiner and after dropping my oilstone (I now have two oilstones :rolleyes: ) a few years ago I bought a diamond hone, I can quickly get my Plane irons (blades that is) and chisels shaving sharp with it.
I have dropped it a few times and it's still fine and it lives in my toolbox and gets battered about a bit.
I don't think I will ever go back to stones nowadays and just about all the lads I work with borrow it if they can.
Japanese waterstones sound like a good idea for the workshop but not much cop for site use let alone for out and about camping and so on, and I wont even go into the half a stone idea.
About the only thing to remember about diamond hones is to make sure they are fully before storing them.
Just my take on the deal anyway.