View Full Version : Ray Mears - tarp criticism
Shambling Shaman
02-01-2008, 19:42
Just watched a Ray Mears bushcraft episode, where he folds his tarp and states he folds it the same way every time.
I find it hard to criticize the great man but folding the same way every time will create weak spots and reduce equipment life? or am I wrong.
imho always used stuff sacks.
Difficult to say. I've never had this problem myself, although I'd wager Ray gets more use out of his tarps than I do! I reckon it would take a long time to wear an Aussie hootchie out as they are very robust.
Shambling Shaman
02-01-2008, 19:53
Difficult to say. I've never had this problem myself, although I'd wager Ray gets more use out of his tarps than I do! I reckon it would take a long time to wear an Aussie hootchie out as they are very robust.
Good input as usual, we are at the "you get what you pay for" question. So if you have a cheap tarp = stuff sack.
good quality tarp = what ever you need to make it fit.
I'm not sure about the quality over the bombproofness. I'd like to think it wouldn't matter with a tarp unless it had a silicone underproofing, you know, that rubbery stuff that peels off after a few years. The Tatonka polycotton looks like it should last forever unless it ripped and it doesn't have a rubbery underside so the proofing is in the material fibres and how they are woven. There are seams though where panels are joined which could fail over time.
I seem to recall the folding causes weaknes idea, but not sure where it originates from and if that person had first hand experience of that hapening or if it is just supposition. (Big word!)
I usually fold my tarps in a similar manner each time for no other reason than that being how far my arms can reach.
I haven't noticed any problems so far but mine are the Tatonka cotton type tarps.
I suspect a bigger problem could be caused by most peoples method of hanging a tarp over a ridgeline.
This definately causes wear in windy conditions but I see many books and guides suggesting that method.
I usually hang my tarp under a line so it can't rub. I usually have some elastic in the system somewhere too to reduce the stress on the fabric.
Shambling Shaman
02-01-2008, 20:20
I usually hang my tarp under a line so it can't rub.
Thats my way to.
gregorach
02-01-2008, 20:23
Hmmm.... Even if it does cause wear over time, is that more or less important than being able to get your tarp up quickly at the end of a hard day (possibly in the dark and in foul weather), without having to think about it at all?
As for the ridgeline under / over question... Running the ridgeline under the tarp just seems to be inviting drips to me.
scoops_uk
02-01-2008, 20:29
How do you keep the lines tidy in a stuff sack?
Scoops
Hmmm.... Even if it does cause wear over time, is that more or less important than being able to get your tarp up quickly at the end of a hard day (possibly in the dark and in foul weather), without having to think about it at all?
As my ridge line is already threaded through the hanging loops of my tarp, it is probably quicker for me to do it that way than trying to throw a tarp over a ridge line in the wind and then peg it down before it blows back off again!
I have to say that it's something that I'd wondered about, but I think it's also a factor on how much you try to get out of your kit. I rather suspect that Ray isn't sentimental about tarps and the like, nor has any special need to try and scrape the life out as long as possible, so I think he chooses the most convenient method and is willing to replace a tarp when it needs it.
gregorach
02-01-2008, 21:15
spamel: Well, yeah - but what I meant was that it's quicker and easier if you know that it's folded up in a consistent manner, rather than stuffed in a stuff sack. I think you may have missed that the original question was about whether to fold it up the same way every time, not whether to put it over or under the ridgeline. That was a digression... ;)
scoops: As for keeping the lines tidy when packing it away, I hank up the guy lines and tie them up in such a way that I know they'll pull out cleanly, fold / roll the tarp so they're on the inside, and use the ridgeline to wrap the whole lot up. All done with slip knots, so you can just pull the free end and get on with it.
Shambling Shaman
02-01-2008, 21:54
spamel: Well, yeah - but what I meant was that it's quicker and easier if you know that it's folded up in a consistent manner, rather than stuffed in a stuff sack. I think you may have missed that the original question was about whether to fold it up the same way every time, not whether to put it over or under the ridgeline. That was a digression... ;)
scoops: As for keeping the lines tidy when packing it away, I hank up the guy lines and tie them up in such a way that I know they'll pull out cleanly, fold / roll the tarp so they're on the inside, and use the ridgeline to wrap the whole lot up. All done with slip knots, so you can just pull the free end and get on with it.
Thanks , I stuff mine (tarp that is) with the hanked cord i need at the top.
mentalnurse
02-01-2008, 22:31
i have just got a Tatonka cotton type tarp a 3x3.not used it yet but was looking at the black tapes with slots for the ropes they dont look like they could hold it up in a strong wind and was thinking of the over line method insted,i know i may be wrong has anyone had any problems with them weaking and leeking or the tapes ripping off? sorry if i woffal..lol
Chester`C
02-01-2008, 23:19
You'll find that Ray does a lot of stuff the same way as its tried and tested and probably could do it blind folded which in a tricky situation could be quite helpful
Mike Ameling
03-01-2008, 01:27
I've used a 9 foot by 12 foot canvas painters dropclothe as a tarp for most of 2 decades, and have had no problems with it "wearing out" along the fold lines. I use it for everything - as shelter, as a wind break, as a tent floor, and to cover stuff up in the back of my pickup truck. It rides on the passenger side floorboards in the cab all the time. And I generally fold it up the same way each time. I use it, abuse it, and it's gotten pretty dirty gray in color over the years. But it's just held up through it all. Altho, I should consider giving it another waterproof treatment one of these years.
I did not sew on loops or tabs/tape. I used that old "tipi" method of attaching cord to it. Take a small rock or marble, put it on the canvas where you want to attach a cord/rope, gather the canvas over and around that marble, then tie your cord tight around the canvas. They work great, and I move them around as I need to.
I've only seen that "wear" problem on folded canvas/tarps with very heavily treated tarps. And the "wear" along the fold lines ended up being caused by other things rubbing along that fold line. I never saw any damage just from being folded in the same places.
One thing to keep in mind. A "tarp", like any other gear, is a "consumable supply". It will not last forever. It will age/weather/tear over time, and will require replacement at some time in the future. How long it lasts depends mostly on how much use it gets and how hard you use it. My painter's dropclothe tarp is still going strong after more than 2 decades of hard use.
Just my humble opinions to share. Take them as such.
Mikey - yee ol' grumpy blacksmith out in the Hinterlands
Shambling Shaman
03-01-2008, 08:06
I've used a 9 foot by 12 foot canvas painters dropclothe as a tarp for most of 2 decades, and have had no problems with it "wearing out" along the fold lines. I use it for everything - as shelter, as a wind break, as a tent floor, and to cover stuff up in the back of my pickup truck. It rides on the passenger side floorboards in the cab all the time. And I generally fold it up the same way each time. I use it, abuse it, and it's gotten pretty dirty gray in color over the years. But it's just held up through it all. Altho, I should consider giving it another waterproof treatment one of these years.
I did not sew on loops or tabs/tape. I used that old "tipi" method of attaching cord to it. Take a small rock or marble, put it on the canvas where you want to attach a cord/rope, gather the canvas over and around that marble, then tie your cord tight around the canvas. They work great, and I move them around as I need to.
I've only seen that "wear" problem on folded canvas/tarps with very heavily treated tarps. And the "wear" along the fold lines ended up being caused by other things rubbing along that fold line. I never saw any damage just from being folded in the same places.
One thing to keep in mind. A "tarp", like any other gear, is a "consumable supply". It will not last forever. It will age/weather/tear over time, and will require replacement at some time in the future. How long it lasts depends mostly on how much use it gets and how hard you use it. My painter's dropclothe tarp is still going strong after more than 2 decades of hard use.
Just my humble opinions to share. Take them as such.
Mikey - yee ol' grumpy blacksmith out in the Hinterlands
Been away from this forum awhile. But it's this kind of solid info that makes this site what it is -- the best. :thanks:
pothunter
03-01-2008, 10:14
Hi all
In my humble opinion rigging is possibly the one of the most limiting factors, too slack and it will flap around in the wind putting undue strain on whatever method of anchor you have and in wet conditions leading to water pooling where it will eventually leak. I know they are out of fashion but I like bungees, they allow for plenty of tension and are forgiving in the wind.
Mike, I guess with a 9x12 tarp you have a pretty steep ridge angle that will increase shedding of water and the larger the tarp the less chance of it being contacted on the inside that was always the problem with canvas when I was a kid.
Pothunter.
John Fenna
03-01-2008, 10:19
I too like bungee tensioning of a tarp.
It is quick, easy, gives play in a wind and prevents the need for constantly retensioning your guys.
I use them for the sides/corners of my tarp but use a ridge line from which the tarp is suspended.
I do not leave the lines/bungees attached to the tarp and stuff the tarp into a stuff sack.
Works for me.
littlebiglane
03-01-2008, 12:02
i have just got a Tatonka cotton type tarp a 3x3.not used it yet but was looking at the black tapes with slots for the ropes they dont look like they could hold it up in a strong wind and was thinking of the over line method insted,i know i may be wrong has anyone had any problems with them weaking and leeking or the tapes ripping off? sorry if i woffal..lol
I have used mine quite a bit and not had a problem with those slotted black taped bits. They are alot stronger than they look. No leaking either. But I would be interested in other people's long-term usage views on these tarps as I have had mine less than a year.
Burnt Ash
03-01-2008, 13:31
Just watched a Ray Mears bushcraft episode, where he folds his tarp and states he folds it the same way every time.
I find it hard to criticize the great man but folding the same way every time will create weak spots and reduce equipment life? or am I wrong.
imho always used stuff sacks.
Interesting point! I fold my OS maps a different way each time I pack them away and get at least four outings out of them.
Burnt Ash
Bungees are all I use for tension on my tarps and I have never had a problem. Personally I have never seen the need for a ridge line but I must try it one of these days!
And I use a stuff sack for the tarp when breaking camp.
One of the things that convinced me to pay a bit more & get an aussie hoochie was watching the hard usages of the ones on the woodlode course. They are used dozens of times a year (and by inexperienced people as often as not). The clincher for me was the number of times that I and everybody else trod on, kicked & tripped up over the guy lines. None of them showed even the slightest propensity to stretch, give, tear etc. What I'm getting to is that they are pretty tough, resilient bits of kit (squaddie proof) so I dont think the creasing issue is worth worrying about. The issue of pitching and packing the same way regardless if the conditions is IMHO far more important & significant.
If it lasts me for a good few years of constant use then I wont really bitch if it wears out & need replacing. After all even if it begins to leak a little it can always be relegated to other less crucial uses ie groundsheet, kit shelter, wood ant harvester etc
I say just dont worry about it.
Cheers
Nick
Hi all...
The hootchie is a great bit of kit, and yes they are pretty soldier proof too, I have my original one I was issued about 11 years ago and it has been through a lot of punishment too but it is still going strong, when we used them they wer always folded & rolled to fit into a side pocket of the pack, I have never seen one develope any wear from this...
Karl....
nicodiemus
03-01-2008, 16:52
Tianjin hen piaoliang. ;)
I want to get myself a basha / hootchie, but i'll be damned if i'm spending 60 quid on it from RM. Is there anywhere that sells them for a reasonable price?
Spamel asked - I seem to recall the folding causes weaknes idea, but not sure where it originates from and if that person had first hand experience of that hapening or if it is just supposition.
I seem to recall that it was Gortex garments that shouldn't be folded the same way each time as it can cause the Gortex to breakdown along the fold lines.
Not experienced that myself as I always stuff my Gortex waterproofs in a staff sack.
My tarp is folded and the lines wrapped around so in theory it is quick to put up with ridge and guy lines already attached.
David
spamel: Well, yeah - but what I meant was that it's quicker and easier if you know that it's folded up in a consistent manner, rather than stuffed in a stuff sack. I think you may have missed that the original question was about whether to fold it up the same way every time, not whether to put it over or under the ridgeline. That was a digression... ;)
Got ya! The way I read it was continuing on from throwing a tarp over a ridge line. I agree with the folded option, hanked guys and then wrapped in the ridgeline. The longest bit of putting my tarp up is probably sourcing a few sticks to point and drive into the ground as pegs! Having it folded in that manner means I can stick the ridge up and then just pull the tarp along the ridge until it is taut, this is achieved by the use of prusiks.
Tianjin hen piaoliang. ;)
I want to get myself a basha / hootchie, but i'll be damned if i'm spending 60 quid on it from RM. Is there anywhere that sells them for a reasonable price?
£49.99 but you would need to arrange P & P!
http://www.gr-rdtaylor.co.uk/products/products.php?id=4
Alternatively, I drive past these on my way to school - I could pick one up and post it to you if you like!
Simon
Shambling Shaman
03-01-2008, 17:35
I got a tarp from the Woodlore site some years back (og) but it had press studs on it which i did not like, handy if two have identical tarps to join together, just dont like the idea of metal on tarps.
gregorach
03-01-2008, 17:44
The longest bit of putting my tarp up is probably sourcing a few sticks to point and drive into the ground as pegs!
I cheat - I carry half a dozen alu tent pegs with mine.
Having it folded in that manner means I can stick the ridge up and then just pull the tarp along the ridge until it is taut, this is achieved by the use of prusiks.
Yep, exactly what I do. Very effective and straightforward, and it means you can get under shelter in a matter of minutes.
nicodiemus
03-01-2008, 17:50
Kind of you to offer, Simon. Not wanting to spend any money right now, but i will keep you in mind!
Shambling Shaman
03-01-2008, 17:55
I cheat - I carry half a dozen alu tent pegs with mine.
Yep, exactly what I do. Very effective and straightforward, and it means you can get under shelter in a matter of minutes.
prusiks that the way. Also got a good tip from here last year, tie your guy line knots at the tarp end so you can reach them from under the tarp.
gregorach
03-01-2008, 18:00
Hehe - I cheat there too. It's not like proper guy tensioners weigh much, and I find them much better to use than messing around with tautline hitches. But yeah, keep the adjustment on the tarp end whichever way you're doing it.
Kind of you to offer, Simon. Not wanting to spend any money right now, but i will keep you in mind!
Any time, no dramas!
Simon
Mike Ameling
03-01-2008, 18:18
That 9x12 tarp made from a painter's dropclothe is pretty versatile. The number of ways to set it up as shelter is amazing - limited only by your imagination.
Most of the time I set it up as a "diamond" shelter, or "plow point" shelter. I tuck 3 feet under so I have a 9x9 square. I then tie one corner to a tree, stake the opposite corner to the ground, and then pull each of the other two corners tight from that back staked corner and stake them to the ground. I then prop a 3 foot stick up in the center to push the tarp up for some headroom. I then spread out that extra part as a little extra groundclothe, roll out my bedroll, and start my campfire just out to the front side a bit. There's plenty of room for one, and can also be used by two if you stretch out right.
We also use it with a canoe to make a lean-to shelter. Prop the canoe upside down and tilted back a bit. Stake or tie one end of the tarp behind the canoe - stretched tight between the two corners on the narrow end. Now tie the other two corners to two of your canoe paddles, and use a bit of rope to stretch them out and down in front of the canoe. There's your lean-to shelter. Extra gear can be stored under the canoe, or you can stretch out and sleep under it if the canoe is large enough. If your paddles are long enough, then the canvas will slope enough to drain any rainwater over the back of the canoe. You can use a couple long poles if your paddles are too short, or you want more "headroom" out front. This was the traditional shelter used by the voyageurs traveling the rivers and lakes back in the 1700's and 1800's, and is still used to this day by many modern canoe campers.
I've also set my tarp up as an A frame type wedge tent - with both ends open (or closed up with another tarp/blanket. Or as that simple lean-to. And I've also just rolled up in it beside the fire. It's just so ... versatile. And, for my historical camping/trekking, it can be documented as being used in those early time periods. Yeah, it is heavier than modern nylon tarps, but that's the price I pay for camping/trekking in that historical manner.
Oops, forgot to comment on that waterproofing. Traditional canvas can and often does "leak" or drip water if you touch it when it is raining/wet. So you do need to keep your bedroll away from touching the sides when it is raining - or it can "wick" water through and into your blankets/clothing. Just one of the known hazards of using canvas when camping.
I hope these humble thoughts help.
Mikey - yee ol' grumpy blacksmith out in the Hinterlands
I like the three corners pinned to the ground and the last corner way up method, but it is really only useable like that in summer with a small fire to keep the midges away. It's not a stretch out type shelter, but it is nice for sitting down and chilling by the fire.
Mike Ameling
04-01-2008, 00:11
It's all a matter of what you want out of a shelter.
I use the Diamond tent in all weather. Yes, it is open on the front, but you do have two edges pinned to the ground to cut the wind. You do need that prop stick in the middle to give you some headroom, and some room way back in the point so that your feet and gear don't touch the canvas.
I sleep in it two different ways. One way is to have the foot of my bedroll sticking down towards that staked down point, with my head up near the front. The other way I usually use is to stash my gear back in the point, and sleep cross-wise just back from the point where the two sides are staked down. That prop stick is usually right next to me. This allows me to tend a fire just out front and to the side, but also to crawl out of my bedroll and still be under cover if it is raining.
But I usually carry in a big enough bedroll to not NEED a fire to get me through the night. If it's that cold, I tend to set my long tarp up as a lean-to, with a reflector fire in front and the sides closed off with other tarps or brush debris.
It's a good, simple, quick way to set up a square tarp for a shelter. Unfortunately, we can't find any documentation of that specific style of using a tarp back in the early 1800's and before. Many people have searched for paintings or descriptions of that specific configuration, but with out any sucess so far. It's "accepted" as a historical tent at many of the Living History events, and by many of the Longhunter groups, but just not historically documented - yet.
One note: they work great in rain storms - as long as the storm is coming from behind you. If it's coming from the front, you tend to get drenched.
Mikey - yee ol' grumpy blacksmith out in the Hinterlands
I'm having problems rigging my tarp as taught as I think it should be without the ridge sagging and the head room getting too low. I'm using 4mm static climbing accessory cord for the ridge and 550 paracord for guying out. I'm putting as much tension on the ridge as I can (Evenk hitch one end, taught-tarp hitch at the other). Maybe I'm just being unrealistic and putting too much 'pull' on the guys and should settle for more slack in the tarp. Isn't there a school of thought that suggests that some slack is good since there is less chance of the tarp ripping in a stiff wind? Advice appreciated please. I notice some folks use bungees - am I missing a trick?
Cheers. Steve.
Without stating the obvious have you got prusic knots attached to the loops on your tarp ridgeline ?
phill_ue
10-03-2010, 19:24
Bungees are quick and continue to apply tension, and they'll let the tarp give in the wind. They're cheap and so they can be replaced easily if required. I prefer cord guy lines as I then have cordage for other tasks if required. Tie a prussik on either end of your tarp at te ridge line points and you'll be able to get the tarp nice and tight.
i fold mine in such a way that i can get it out quick if needed, i also taughten my tarp like this with carabiners and prussiks. The prussik will move if you push it in the same direction as the ridgeline but the when load is applied to the carabiner it will tighten the knot and prevent it moving. That way you can get the tarp taught with minimum hassle
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/veedubgt18v/tarpline3.jpg
(imagine all the lines are taught this is just an illustrative photo)
And then its nice like this
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/veedubgt18v/BC2.jpg
the prussik is round the ridgeline and the carabiner clips onto eyelets on the tarp, the reason i dont have the prussiks permanently attached to the tarp is cos i sometimes pitch straight and sometimes in a flying 'v' etc and need to pick and choose my attachment points.
with this setup i can get my tarp up and down quick in whatever combo i want without faffing with knots
phill_ue
10-03-2010, 20:09
Alpkit karabiners work well and are cheap if you want to recreate the setup described by MrEd.
Alpkit karabiners work well and are cheap if you want to recreate the setup described by MrEd.
yeah its worth noting aswell that you dont need to use loadbearing carabiners for this. Climbing ones are about a tenner and the ones i use about a quid. i also use the same thing on my tarp underblanket. An alternative would be threaded climbing maillions. I dont untie my prussik ever lol, it just stays put on the line
ridge up, tarp over, clip on, taughten up, done. just what you need when its gashing it down
oh i fold my tarp so when i get it out and sling it over the line i can just clip it on then pull it out concertina style
Graham_S
10-03-2010, 20:14
I use prussiks too.
I tie my ridgeline between the trees, then i can adjust the tarp for optimum positioning.
It's a more flexible solution.
All my guylines are attached to the tarp by mini karabiners (5 for £2.50 from Alpkit last time I ordered) so I can remove them to adjust the setup as required.
nice, i mainly use guylines, but i also have 4 30cm bungees i take aswell then like others i can use the cord for other things, i to take tent pegs aswell only 4 just incase. bungess are great if its really windy, they seem to control the flap a bit more, and if the wind gets underneath it just bobs up and down rather than snapping violently.
worth remembering with the bungees is the tension, i havent had one let go but i imagine if it did it could sting a bit lol
I pitch mine on the ground being a grounddweller and all. I'm a folder but I never seem to be able to fold it in the same way each time I get it out. Its a lightweight SIl-nylon job so is super slippy. In fact I have trouble even gripping it. A good one though. I use trekking poles and dyneema guy lines. The tarp has little bungee loops tied on around the edge at 16 tie out points. There are hanging loops 3 in the middle and one at each edge in the middle in line with the three. A lovely little tarp, 2.4 or 2.5m square. Kathmandu trekking one bought from Bison Bushcraft. They don't make them anymore as the company making them closed. I've only used it once for real though but have played with it as I'm new to tarping. Still need to practise some more as I need to work out the tortilla pitching style and a few others for really bad conditions.
Badger74
11-03-2010, 12:07
*Thread hijack*
Mike Ameling, I've sent you a PM, I hope, on historical tarp set ups. I have a couple of images that may or may not be of intrest to you. Send me your email address if you want them. Ta
*Thread unjack*
*Thread hijack*
Mike Ameling, I've sent you a PM, I hope, on historical tarp set ups. I have a couple of images that may or may not be of intrest to you. Send me your email address if you want them. Ta
*Thread unjack*
PM sent Badger ;)
Andy2112
11-03-2010, 12:12
*Thread hijack*
Mike Ameling, I've sent you a PM, I hope, on historical tarp set ups. I have a couple of images that may or may not be of intrest to you. Send me your email address if you want them. Ta
*Thread unjack*
you have pm
Badger74
11-03-2010, 12:55
Thanks for the PM's. I feel a bit of a heel now. Apologies if i've up set anyone.
Thanks for the PM's. I feel a bit of a heel now. Apologies if i've up set anyone.
I'm sure no one was upset...how were you to know?
Simon
Thanks for the PM's. I feel a bit of a heel now. Apologies if i've up set anyone.
huh why? i would like to see them.
why do you feel a heel?
Badger74
11-03-2010, 13:12
Mr Ed, Ive sent you the images.
Feel a heel beacuase I took no notice of the posted dates and then because it was mentioned, jogged my memory about seeing a thread passing the information on.
Andy2112
11-03-2010, 13:13
Thanks for the PM's. I feel a bit of a heel now. Apologies if i've up set anyone.
As said before, don't sweat it mate, you didn't know bud.;)
oh i see, well no sweat its al good!
Thanks for all the words of wisdom guys. Yes I am using prussik loops on the ridge. I've got a handful of Alpkit mini-karribiners too & had planned to use them next time I'm out. I was hoping to get some more from them at the Outdoors Show later this month but Alpkit don't seem to be on the list this year. Like Mr Ed I think flexibility is key and the little 'biners can help with this. I think I'm just putting too much tension on everything! I'll see what using bungees does for me next time too. I know what Paul B means about si-nylon tarps. I just stuff my Kathmandu tarp in a bag, but it is like holding onto an eel. Some of the tarp gets out for every handful that goes in! I'm saddened that the company has gone bust. The 2.m x 2.5 tarp is so light and packs real small.
forestwalker
11-03-2010, 16:17
For keeping the lines neat I have a good method.
1. Roll them up from the end towards the tarp. I use a technique where I alternate clockwise and counter-clockwise turns which keeps the tangles away. Stop when you are about 30-40 cm away from the tarp.
2. Take a few turns around with the line
3. Pass a loop of the free (i.e. tarp) end though the bundle, and pass it back over the bundle. Pull thight. The result will be a bit like a started larks head knot. I can look up the number in Ashley if anyone wants me to...
This will not come undone on its own, and will undo without tangles when you want it to.
I use step 2+3 for pretty much all lines I coil up, it works much bettetr than passing the end itself through.
phill_ue
11-03-2010, 16:52
Thanks for the PM's. I feel a bit of a heel now. Apologies if i've up set anyone.
I don't know who changed Mikes' title under his name, but like to think he is on a new journey somewhere, and that he is enjoying himself. He touched more peoples' lives then he'll ever know. Don't feel so bad, you weren't to know.