View Full Version : bush blades
Just saw this, it's probably old news? :D :rolleyes: :eek:
http://m4040.com/Knifemaking/REVIEWS/FieldBladeReview-BushKnives.htm
Shows that there is a variety of opinions out there :)
(No affiliation with site and/ or author)
Mike
I think that if he is calling it a review then it is a poor one, as reviews should be about how well a knife is made, how well it is designed, is it value for money etc etc
that is just a page full of someones opinion, which dont apply to everyone.
whats the article trying to say?
:why:
hmm dunno, but some other stuff on the site is quite.... how shall i say it... opinionated? (read the a**hole files - or maybe not - that's some time of your life you never get back :D)).
i think he wants to say that bigger = better and also makes no differentiation between bushcraft and survival situations... :confused:
mike
Well that's 5 minutes of my life, just wasted. Why did I click that link exactly?
I'm sorry :sad6: here's your 5 minutes back :D
:lmao: :lmao:
:240:
John Fenna
16-11-2007, 14:06
Boy! - does that fellow have opinions or what?
Does he understand the concept of Bushcraft as opposed to Survival?
Can he write anything positive about anything?
Can he count over 20 without removing his boxers?
I think I have just joined as a candidate for the A**hole files....
Ahhh everyones gone on m4040 once in a while. Redneck is all I have to say. Worth a laugh though.
@ Injati: You're from Schleswig Hostein? Moin moin! Whereabouts? :D I lived in Malente once...
Can he count over 20 without removing his boxers?
@John: that made my day :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
Mike
demographic
16-11-2007, 17:57
<Scott dons his flame resistant Nomex undercrackers and adopts devils advocate mode>
Mind, he does have a point when he suggests that the general bushcraft style of blade isn't very well represented in many cultures that use blades during daily life...
The bit about the $500 knives being too expensive to actually use isn't too far off the mark either.
Mebbe its just that I don't give a monkeys about whittling spoons but theres a hell of a lot of cultures that have got on just fine ambling through the desert/jungle/frozen wasteland without a scandi grind bushy.
Maybe they are just far more recourcefull than us eh?
We need the perfect tool but they can manage just fine without?
I think hes more of a combat-survivalist type...aswel as a general fantasist.
demographic
16-11-2007, 19:20
I think hes more of a combat-survivalist type...aswel as a general fantasist.
Fair comment, it still doesn't explain how come theres been lots of cultures that have gone on for centuries without ever feeling the need for a scandi grind bushy:)
Some of them even do the odd bit of carving as well.
A lot of cultures do rather well without a big Bowie either. Or a kuku..kuli.. what the heck is it?
Oh bother, let me chop my cake in peace. :rolleyes:
you should see what he does to a Kukri :eek: :eek:
now that is a bush knife developed by a people etc etc
I dont think its about cultures developing different knives, the is a tribe (cant remember the name) that have used bows for generations without feathers (proper name) on the end. when someone from another culture (who use feathers on the end) came along and showed them that they work better they said great, and now use them.
anyhow, just because a culture uses a given knife successfully doesn't mean it the most efficient tool for the job
I guess when they say a good workman never blames his tools there right. Then again they say your only as sharp as your knife...
You can clearly see the northern aboriginals of Australia using rather strange, shoddy looking knives with a strong curve in one of the Ray Mears episodes. The curved knife was about 5" odd in length. Kinda thing you'd expect to see in an old fashioned butchers shop.
Also when hes somewhere or the other in Africa...can't remember where it was too long ago when I saw it but I remember a tribesman showing him his survival kit. One of the many items was a somewhat leaf shaped, large knife approx 7" in length.
Its all a matter of skill and preference I guess. But I don't have or ever think I will posess the skill of a tribesman, so as a modern man, I'l stick to my razor sharp scandi.
demographic
16-11-2007, 21:16
I dont think its about cultures developing different knives, the is a tribe (cant remember the name) that have used bows for generations without feathers (proper name) on the end. when someone from another culture (who use feathers on the end) came along and showed them that they work better they said great, and now use them.
anyhow, just because a culture uses a given knife successfully doesn't mean it the most efficient tool for the job
Fair nuff, we in the west usualy use saws that cut on the pushstroke whilst the japanese do fine with ones that cut on the drawstroke and all that.
But, how about those who use for instance the Kukri?
Is ours better than theirs? Is it down to the environment that they are using theirs or our legislation that causes us to use a short knife and an axe instead of just a big knife?
I can't say I am a fan of massive knives myself but if I had to get into a coconut often or chop sugarcane I could well change my mind.
Also I notice that there seems to be a bit of unrest as the interchangability of the words "Bushcraft" and "Survival".
Looking through that blokes site, I have to say that theres a massive crossover as a lot of the things he likes doing are frequently discussed on here under the title "Bushcraft" so are we just arguing semantics?
Well apart from the bits when he has his as****e list, errrrrrr, proper loon there he is.
You look through almost any survival book and then check on here to see if the same subjects come up and I bet that most of them do.
Wild food? Check.
Knife choice and care? Even "Rays" first book was a Survival one.
Cooking in the wild using fires? Check.
Rope making? Check.
Navigation? Check.
You name it and most of it's in there, its just that most of us don't want to be included in the Michael Ryan TA wannabe style so we call it bushcraft instead.
Can't say I blame em but we all know that if one of use went nuts and killed a load of people that the Daily Kneejerk would label us survivalists anyway.
It could even be argued that the term "bushcraft" isn't that accurate as theres a distinct lack of "Bush" round the UK.
Well apart from me, I just go camping every once in a while and don't mind calling it that;)
Mind I am one of those awkward gits that doesn't like to be labled, I own several motorcycles but shy away from the label "biker".
Can I put my freshly whittled wooden spoon away now?
Regards Scott.
demographic is a biker :nana:
There are some interesting points here. Ignoring all the opther, more opinionated stuff on that site, I find the argument that bigger tools are 'better' has some truth in it.
Just look at any industrial equipment. It always seems to be heavier, larger, bigger, i.e 'heavy duty' or 'industrial strength'. The people who work with tools for their living and not for fun as we do (the same as 'primitive' buscraft in basic socities is for a living, and not for fun) do not use fiddly tools. :rolleyes:
Regarding bushcraft vs. survival, I think there is a distinction, but on the site any survival/ outdoor/ bushcrafty thing is for the more short term survival situation for anyone, and not for tree huggers like us :D
I find the notion that in a survival situation nature is the enemy quite interesting. :tapedshut
Anyway, gotta rush,
cya
Mike
TheGreenMan
19-11-2007, 19:13
You’re a sauce-pox, Mike. There hasn’t been a serious rumble on these forums for a while now. That URL could definitely get some folks twitching, though I suspect a lot won’t nibble (like me, for instance :) ).
Cheers,
Paul.
PS: Loved the ‘pink-panty wearing crowd’ thing :lmao: ...haven't worn any for years :D
John Fenna
19-11-2007, 20:07
And WHAT is wrong with wearing pink panties?
Jedadiah
19-11-2007, 20:12
Worry ye not John, The Green Man must be a survivalist because he's going COMMANDO! (Sans Pink Panties):eek:
Obviously an article from a guy reared in the John Rambo school of moderation and diplomacy!
Nice to see that there are still extremists around for people to rail against. I've no real experience of 'big' blades - except for a brief flirtation with an MoD survival knife (a.k.a. club) - but I just know that I do not have the skills to control the blade safely.
Bushcraft? Survival? Now there's an interesting debate. Where does one end and the other begin? Can we generalise or is it a personal cut off point?
Pink panties? I wouldn't wear anything else...unless it's really cold - I might add a T shirt. Matching, of course.
Is it just me or can everyone hear distant banjos? Pah!
TheGreenMan
19-11-2007, 20:38
And WHAT is wrong with wearing pink panties?
Aboslulely nothing...:) {...huh, good God!..etc,etc :) ]
Worry ye not John, The Green Man must be a survivalist because he's going COMMANDO! (Sans Pink Panties):eek:
Ah, you have the measure of me, Jed! :D Good man :)
Cheers both,
Paul.
TheGreenMan
19-11-2007, 21:09
Obviously an article from a guy reared in the John Rambo school of moderation and diplomacy!
Nice to see that there are still extremists around for people to rail against. I've no real experience of 'big' blades - except for a brief flirtation with an MoD survival knife (a.k.a. club) - but I just know that I do not have the skills to control the blade safely...
Actually, John Rambo was a character that I could relate to, when I eventually got around to watching the movies. Despite the superficial ‘macho’ image, or misinterpretation of the character, the character was a person of some sensitivity and understandable vulnerability as most of us would be, and might be, if one had had the same or similar experiences as him.
And on the subject of the web site, the author does make some valid points, although that can be lost in the emotional reaction to his specific stance, if one has a personal position to defend.
...Pink panties? I wouldn't wear anything else...unless it's really cold - I might add a T shirt. Matching, of course...
Cool :)
...Is it just me or can everyone hear distant banjos? Pah!
No, it’s just you :D
Cheers,
Paul
British Red
19-11-2007, 21:10
I think the guy is a fantasist.
I also think Bushcraft is a fantasy. It serves no useful purpose whatsoever. Its a hobby. We might like to think of ourselves as "outdoorsmen", "bushcrafters", "working with nature" or whatever.
Come on, lets be honest. We work in offices and on building sites or shops or factories or whatever. We aren't doing nature any favours by walking through it. We have absolutely no need of "bushcraft" skills in our daily lives. We aren't the bushmen of the Kalahari - we are systems analysts or whatever. Its a hobby, an indulgence and a bit of harmless dreaming.
We may be very good at what we have defined as "Bushcraft". We may have built our own set of rules around it and decided what works and what doesn't. But we have no right to laugh at other people. Our hobby has no more legitimacy or moral high ground than knitting, football or collecting Barbie dolls. Other people may have other opinions on what works or whats needed. Good on 'em I say. Lets not get all superior about it - we just play dens in the woods - it really isn't any more serious or worthy of respect than that.
Red
TheGreenMan
19-11-2007, 21:12
Superb post, Red.
Cheers,
Paul.
John Fenna
19-11-2007, 21:13
Never mind the film - READ First Blood, it is ALL about the state of America and JR's mind - the violence is understandable then... and the film explained a bit!
The sequels were carp though!
TheGreenMan
19-11-2007, 21:19
Never mind the film - READ First Blood...
OK, will do.
Cheers,
Paul.
Woa :D
Red I think you are spot on.
Regarding pink panties... are purple (a light pastell kind of purple :rolleyes: ) ok?:confused: :lmao:
:240:
Regarding John R., I really liked the first movie, where there was a character to relate to with a backstory and a bit of social background. A wee bit more realistic than the 2nd and 3rd one as well...
And old Johnny didn't do bushcraft :P
For me it's all about being outdoors, smelling the outdoor smells, the clean air, the humbling feeling when you see a grand scene such as a sunset or even just the milky way on a clear night.
TheGreenMan, what's a sauce-pox? I'n not a native speaker :o
Mike
TheGreenMan
19-11-2007, 22:12
...TheGreenMan, what's a sauce-pox? I'n not a native speaker :o
Mike
You are a native speaker, Mike, but perhaps too young to have heard of this one. It was a phrase that was frequently used to describe a cheeky (saucy) child with a winning way. This is a good example, this is me, at who knows what age, but the sparkle in the eyes says it all:
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t179/B3xIq7/bad_hair_day.jpg
Hope this helps :)
Cheers,
Paul.
The Oxford Paperback Dictionary: Saucy – 1.impudent. 2.jaunty.
The Oxford Paperback Dictionary:: Cheeky: 1.Showing bold or or cheerful lack of respect.
The Oxford Paperback Dictionary:: Cheek - 3. impudent speech, quiet arrogance...
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
Cheers for this, always eager to learn :)
Looks like me when I was younger, was your dad in the navy :p :tapedshut
I tell you, hand on heart, I'm not an English native speaker, I just try to adapt to my habitat of choice:o
I'm actually German :yikes: :sad6: :sulkoff:
You are a native speaker, Mike, but perhaps too young to have heard of this one. It was a phrase that was frequently used to describe a cheeky (saucy) child with a winning way. This is a good example, this is me, at who knows what age, but the sparkle in the eyes says it all:
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t179/B3xIq7/bad_hair_day.jpg
Hope this helps :)
Cheers,
Paul.
The Oxford Paperback Dictionary: Saucy – 1.impudent. 2.jaunty.
The Oxford Paperback Dictionary:: Cheeky: 1.Showing bold or or cheerful lack of respect.
The Oxford Paperback Dictionary:: Cheek - 3. impudent speech, quiet arrogance...
British Red
19-11-2007, 23:20
I'm with Mr Fenna on this one, the original book is a fantastic novel (by a guy called David Morrell as I recall) - quite dark and about how two stron people (Rambo as a Vietnam Vet who can't return to real life) and a Sheriff name or Teasle IIRC run into each other and end up in a hopeless "war" that neither wants. No "good guys" or "bad guys" just a nasty case of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and lots of needless death. Great 3 dimensional characters - completely ruined by the film.
Red
Come on, lets be honest. We work in offices and on building sites or shops or factories or whatever. We aren't doing nature any favours by walking through it. We have absolutely no need of "bushcraft" skills in our daily lives. We aren't the bushmen of the Kalahari - we are systems analysts or whatever. Its a hobby, an indulgence and a bit of harmless dreaming.
Red
How very true. From where does the recent popularity in our indulgence come? Is it a generation thing where people of a certain age are rediscovering the innocent pleasures of childhood on a more substantial scale? It can't all be down to our man Mears, the resurrected "Scouting for Boys" and "The Dangerous Book for Boys"; or can it? I reckon it's essentially a growing reaction to the cottonwool state and ludicrous health and safety regulations. I am, first and foremost, a teacher but I am incredibly fortunate to be able to teach bushcraft to some of the kids I teach. Is this having your cake and eating it? I hope so.
Thanks for the name of the author of "First Blood" - I'll pursue it. I enjoyed the film purely from the action-flash-bang-wallop angle; the PTSD side of it was not particularly well served by Sly and his technical team, particularly the script writer.
I take on board the point that with knives, it is all down to personal choice and need. As I said earlier, I cannot handle large bladed knives with any confidence so I retreat into the familiarity of smaller, bushy-type blades.
But...I still think pink panties are IT and, funnily enough I can still hear banjos...Pah!
John Fenna
20-11-2007, 08:36
The man has a right to his opinions - especially about knives - but publishing the A**hole files? He is setting himself up to be laughed at!
British Red
20-11-2007, 08:39
I think theres a lot of disenchantment with the modern world - in which many of us do things that have no tangible outcome. In the old days where many more people grew things or made things, results were clear to see and success measurable. Perhaps mastering the skill of "fire by friction" offers simple, tangible outcomes that our daily lives lack? Maybe the whole "Bushcraft" thing helps us feel in charge and capable and masters of our own destinies?
Either way its a great hobby and a fun bit of escapism - but thats all it is. People who get all snooty about it or disparaging aboutother interests have totally lost the plot in my view. Its rather like purist skiers getting disparaging about snowboarders. Either way its just sliding down a hill like an overgrown kid. Bushcraft or survival? Big knife or small knife? Who cares? Its just "playing out" and one big fantasy and escape. If someone else wants to call it something else or use a different tool or whatever - good luck to them. Making a shelter in the woods with a Small Forest Axe is no more "worthy" than having a picnic in a layby while towing a caravan. Its all about "getting away from it all".
Surely we are not so mean spirited that we need to be rude about other peoples choices when we are just messing about ourselves?
This isn't a reflection on this thread in particular - I haven't read the guys site in any detail. It just makes me laugh when people talk about Bushcraft like its a religion or a higher purpose or that preserving skills has some deep spiritual significance. No it hasn't - we're just having fun - lets at least be honest about it and not get all snooty.
Red
John Fenna
20-11-2007, 09:01
Erm - actually Red, to some folks there is a Spiritual/reigious aspect to their involvement with getting out into the Outdoors.......
But yeah - I agree that most of us are just continuing to play "dens" as we did as kids but now our toys are more expensive....:D
Erm - actually Red, to some folks there is a Spiritual/reigious aspect to their involvement with getting out into the Outdoors.......
But yeah - I agree that most of us are just continuing to play "dens" as we did as kids but now our toys are more expensive....:D
and now the police take em off you and wont give them back :(
just a clip round the ear in the old days
Spiritual/reigious aspect to their involvement with getting out into the Outdoors
A very worrying thing indeed
Some interesting thoughts here!
I also have to investigate the First Blood book, sounds intruiging, thanks for that!
Re: bushcraft, I agree its ecapism. but also, (as said before as well) it may be trying to make sense of what is happening around us. Any 'hobby' is like that, the good thing about them is that they keep skills alive and sometimes develop them. In the developed world with all the efficiency, people strive to work less, so they need to find something to occupy their spare time. For some its family, for some it's a hobby, others never stop working etc.
So I offer a round of chill pills :240: Peace :)
Mike
pothunter
20-11-2007, 10:34
Hi Red
Now I'm only a simple country boy but I've followed a few of your threads and have seen some of the photographs that you have posted you obviously have a good eye for detail and appreciate our flora and fauna. For you to do that and to continue to do it you must find some satisfaction in the process and subject, if this makes you feel good are you not being spiritually satisfied.
Now for me walking camping being outdoors either on my own or with friends relaxes me and allows me to recharge my batteries and I therefore work better and am a little easier to live with is this not the spirit that is being refreshed.
I have always kept religion at a very healthy distance and don't think the two are necessarily linked.
With regards to being opinionated all anyone has to understand is that I'm right and they are wrong, unless I change my mind in which case they then agree with me.
Pothunter.
I think bushcraft does involve more of a spiritual connection with the wilderness. As apposed to cold, hard survivalism.
The m4040 bloke sounds like some old geezer you'd think to find on a construction site in the 1930s. The sought who thought it suggested they were homosexuals to wear wedding rings as my nan told me :lmao: That bloke really spends too much time in his basement making fantasy knives...someone needs a girlfriend I think :lmao:
British Red
20-11-2007, 12:48
Hi Red
Now I'm only a simple country boy but I've followed a few of your threads and have seen some of the photographs that you have posted you obviously have a good eye for detail and appreciate our flora and fauna. For you to do that and to continue to do it you must find some satisfaction in the process and subject, if this makes you feel good are you not being spiritually satisfied.
Absolutely I enjoy it - thats why I do it :). However what I try to remind myself is that other people enjoy other things. Some like horse riding or flower arranging or self sufficiency or cake decorating (or something they call survival come to that). I am sure they are equally satisfying to their participants. I guess my attitude is a "live and let live" one. I have my ways of persuing my hobbies and interests, other people have theirs. Neither is more righteous or important or significant.
I dunno - I just think there are more important things that denigrating others. I wasn't really adressing this thread since I haven't perused that link in any detail. More a bit of a trend I guess. To me being outdoors is the fun aprt - who cares what you call it or what type of cutting tool you prefer?
Red
TheGreenMan
20-11-2007, 13:06
...Cheers for this, always eager to learn :)...
No problem :)
...Looks like me when I was younger, was your dad in the navy :p :tapedshut ...
Erm, yes...Bro, we meet at last! :D
...I'm actually German :yikes: :sad6: :sulkoff:
Actually, a section of the family were from Frankfurt am Main, so you and I are related :lmao:
It's also a point of interest that in that photo, I'm wearing an Ullfrotte-like zip necked base layer, a wool mid layer and a wool outer layer. I was clearly ahead of my time, even then :D
Cheers,
Paul.
TheGreenMan
20-11-2007, 13:19
...No "good guys" or "bad guys" just a nasty case of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and lots of needless death. Great 3 dimensional characters...
I can remember a TV documentary from about 20 years ago (perhaps Channel4) that was made about US veterans who couldn't readjust to society upon their return to 'civilisation'. These guys were living permanently out in the woods, and from what I remember their living arrangements were almost identical to those of today's hobbyist bushcrafter.
It was a very touching piece of film making.
Best regards,
Paul.
TheGreenMan
20-11-2007, 13:23
The man has a right to his opinions - especially about knives - but publishing the A**hole files? He is setting himself up to be laughed at!
I'm going to have to go and read those files, they sound like a fun read, thanks, John :)
Best regards,
Paul.
pothunter
20-11-2007, 13:38
Hi Red
To miss quote Ortega y Gasset :
'Hardly anyone in this country needs bushcraft after all, which culmination ultimately justifies going through the motions? Is it the contest, the zero sum of achievement or failure, the thrill of success, the agony of defeat?Is it reinforcement of ego, a way to feel good about oneself, to hold ones head high among ones peers? Or simply to do something because one likes doing it?'
I reckon the above is well worth considering when next watching bush TV.
Have to acknowledge Dave Sigurslid the 'Campfire Philosopher' for the above.
Pothunter.
A man after my own heart a breath of fresh air. I agree with every word.
Of course I meant Red
deepcmonkey
20-11-2007, 18:31
Just read the article, I guess it was written in America. To be honest it is not a review of anything just this guys opinion which he is intitled to.
I have 3 bush blades as he calls them and they all look like tools not weapons. There is no need IMHO to carry a large rambo type knife in the UK and a woodlore clone etc..is perfectly fine for me.
As for being scared to use it no I am not but I will take care of them, the way this guy is going on his knife would be wrecked in no time and wil be of no use what so ever.
horses for courses really
I met this guy about 4 or 5 years ago. He bought a knife from us. Aki and I were showing our knives and carving tools at the annual war canoe races in Agassiz, British Columbia. Sto'lo Nation's event. Cool people.
He was a big fellow. A. biker. A white guy like me just watching the races.
I talked to him for awhile. Surprisingly gentle, friendly type, sounds bizarre, as he was a tough-looking character, but he was kind of a warm personable guy.
It is true that big bush blades come in handy here. He does have a lot of opinions and is not afraid of stating them. I like that.
The knife we made is, from left to right, the third one. Tiger maple with a moose antler cap and lanyard hole.
It looks a bit worn. Nice to know he's using it.
Scott.
Scott you are right mate,
how nice the guy is, is more important than his harmless opinions.
So we really should discus his opinions not his character as we haven't really met him.
clearly a lot of what he says is wrong though:)
Hi Cariboo,
Cheers for the info!
Maybe we can invite the chap here that he can participate in our discussion? What do you guys think?
OT: I've been to Canada once, to BC, and did the West Coast Trail on Vancouver Island, and that was just fantastic! Hope to go back to BC for an extended canoeing/ backcountry trip as soon as I can.
Do you ever venture out into the Great Bear Rainforest? That looks like an amazing place!
Mike
I met this guy about 4 or 5 years ago. He bought a knife from us. Aki and I were showing our knives and carving tools at the annual war canoe races in Agassiz, British Columbia. Sto'lo Nation's event. Cool people.
He was a big fellow. A. biker. A white guy like me just watching the races.
I talked to him for awhile. Surprisingly gentle, friendly type, sounds bizarre, as he was a tough-looking character, but he was kind of a warm personable guy.
It is true that big bush blades come in handy here. He does have a lot of opinions and is not afraid of stating them. I like that.
The knife we made is, from left to right, the third one. Tiger maple with a moose antler cap and lanyard hole.
It looks a bit worn. Nice to know he's using it.
Scott.
TheGreenMan
21-11-2007, 13:58
...Maybe we can invite the chap here that he can participate in our discussion? What do you guys think? ...
I think that would be a very nice idea :)
Best regards,
Paul.
TheGreenMan
21-11-2007, 14:08
...I talked to him for awhile. Surprisingly gentle, friendly type, sounds bizarre, as he was a tough-looking character, but he was kind of a warm personable guy...
He sounds very like the veterans I mentioned in post #43.
...The knife we made is...It looks a bit worn. Nice to know he's using it...
:)
Best regards,
Paul.
I agree Shinken, opinions are second rate - it is what a person does that is important.
Expressing opinions on the internet is an interesting situation because one's past opinions will loom for a long time.
It seems everyone wants and has an opinion. You are either for us or against us.
I've hiked the West Coast Trail a few times. I found April was the best time for a trek, although nowadays there is an official season which starts in May with a registration fee. In the spring nobody else was on it, all the human refuse had been washed away and the trails were fresh and more challenging from the winter storms. Paradise.
Aki, my partner was part of the change camping in some of B.C's old growth forests standing infront of D9 Cat bulldozers. As for the "Great Bear Rainforest", it is an area difficult to log which was designated 'protected' after decades of countless demonstrations in countless valleys in B.C. held by people trying to stop big lumber companies from felling ancient trees. A purely political maneuvre, but I suppose we have to take what we can get. That is just my opinion.:)
Scott
TheGreenMan
21-11-2007, 20:19
I agree Shinken, opinions are second rate - it is what a person does that is important.
Expressing opinions on the internet is an interesting situation because one's past opinions will loom for a long time.
It seems everyone wants and has an opinion. You are either for us or against us...That is just my opinion.:) ...
That’s a gross over-simplification…in my opinion…just another example of people seeking out a confirmation of their own viewpoint. The real challenge is finding the truth in opinions held by those who hold differing opinions from ourselves…
Best regards,
Paul :240:
That’s a gross over-simplification…in my opinion…just another example of people seeking out a confirmation of their own viewpoint. The real challenge is finding the truth in opinions held by those who hold differing opinions from ourselves…
and for that to happen we must be open to being wrong (and admit we are wrong)
Admitting we are wrong and at that often wrong is a very big problem that man has, we went to the moon and said it was a giant leap for mankind. How is it? has it created peace?
Everyone accepts it as a great speech? why is it? or is it?
What i am trying to say is, an opinion based on the desire to make others have the same opinion as you is wrong. There should be a flexible opinion with the desire to gain the truth for the benefit of both party's
TheGreenMan
22-11-2007, 11:00
and for that to happen we must be open to being wrong (and admit we are wrong)
Admitting we are wrong and at that often wrong is a very big problem that man has, we went to the moon and said it was a giant leap for mankind. How is it? has it created peace?
Everyone accepts it as a great speech? why is it? or is it?
What i am trying to say is, an opinion based on the desire to make others have the same opinion as you is wrong. There should be a flexible opinion with the desire to gain the truth for the benefit of both party's
I agree entirely with everything you say here, Shinken.
On the matter of the Moon landings, if we leave aside the whole American/Soviet one-up-manship, thing (not easy to do, as that may well have been a prime motivator for those ventures). It may be considered as a ‘giant leap’ in Man’s technological progress to step onto the surface of the Moon (not bad for a thing that originally crawled out of some pond scum, if the Darwinists are correct), and it was, I’m pretty sure, a major achievement for the man in question. But I don’t think it was ever meant to be an event that would bring about ‘world peace’.
The current space missions involving the International Space Station are a more hopeful example, in the sense that there is a good deal of international cooperation that makes it all possible.
I hope that it doesn’t, in the long-term, become little more than an optimistic gesture, although if it was just that, then that in itself would be some expression of Man’s hope, and possible need, for a better world, and if one wants to avoid being left with the rather hollow feeling that life is nothing more than mere survival, and that this is all any of us can hope for, expect, or aspire to.
Best regards,
Paul.
Hi Buddy,
I am slightly worried that our only hope is to find something in space? How is technology going to improve us as a race? no matter how technologically advanced we get there will still be murders and rapes. We have become more techno in this county yet crime has gone up in the last 60 years by a lot.
By belief is that we have turned from god and turned to technology. People say religion causes wars so we turn our back on the Lord and turn to technology and yet we are still murder's and rapists. Man is bad and God is good, if we rely on ourselves we will always be murder's and rapists that is proven by just observing humanity.
Love is patient, Love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. it always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.
1 Corinthians chapter 13 verses 4 to 8
Beautiful words not from Man but from God. Love to science is a chemical.
Uh oh...
I'd like to try a little preaching meself, never hurt no-one, he?
Hmmm,
Come to think of it, better let the experts of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (http://www.venganza.org/) do it...
:AR15firin :argue:
:lmao:
May The Schwartz be with you!
Mike
Hi Buddy,
I am slightly worried that our only hope is to find something in space? How is technology going to improve us as a race? no matter how technologically advanced we get there will still be murders and rapes. We have become more techno in this county yet crime has gone up in the last 60 years by a lot.
By belief is that we have turned from god and turned to technology. People say religion causes wars so we turn our back on the Lord and turn to technology and yet we are still murder's and rapists. Man is bad and God is good, if we rely on ourselves we will always be murder's and rapists that is proven by just observing humanity.
Love is patient, Love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. it always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.
1 Corinthians chapter 13 verses 4 to 8
Beautiful words not from Man but from God. Love to science is a chemical.
Interesting link, looks like when i said man is bad i was right
Cheers Cariboo!
I've been on the WCT at the beginning of May '05, we were one of the first groups after the park opened. It's a fantastic, wild place.
As far as I know, there was a huge National Park created in '06? I try to follow the activities of the Raincoast Conservation Foundation.
I'd love to do the WCT again in early spring before the season, but I dunno if that will happen any time soon :D
Mike
I've hiked the West Coast Trail a few times. I found April was the best time for a trek, although nowadays there is an official season which starts in May with a registration fee. In the spring nobody else was on it, all the human refuse had been washed away and the trails were fresh and more challenging from the winter storms. Paradise.
Aki, my partner was part of the change camping in some of B.C's old growth forests standing infront of D9 Cat bulldozers. As for the "Great Bear Rainforest", it is an area difficult to log which was designated 'protected' after decades of countless demonstrations in countless valleys in B.C. held by people trying to stop big lumber companies from felling ancient trees. A purely political maneuvre, but I suppose we have to take what we can get. That is just my opinion.:)
Scott
deepcmonkey
22-11-2007, 12:57
Back on track to the original subject, I think if I really did want a "survival" type knife I would pick one of these:
http://www.heinnie.com/Knives/Extrema-Ratio/Extrema-Ratio-Shrapnel-Testudo/p-92-137-947/
Back on track to the original subject, I think if I really did want a "survival" type knife I would pick one of these:
http://www.heinnie.com/Knives/Extrema-Ratio/Extrema-Ratio-Shrapnel-Testudo/p-92-137-947/
Hi,
looks interesting, anyone got any experience with one of these?
I have a Fallkniven A1, so I guess this would be my choice.:o
Mike
deepcmonkey
22-11-2007, 13:21
I have heard they are quite good, I love my Bushy knives but to be honest if I was cold, wet, tired etc.. I would like a finger guard on a knife to prevent accidents would be interested to find some opinions on the Extrema Ratio Shrapnel. Think I might get one.
TheGreenMan
22-11-2007, 17:57
Uh oh...
I'd like to try a little preaching meself, never hurt no-one, he?
Hmmm,
Come to think of it, better let the experts of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (http://www.venganza.org/) do it...
:AR15firin :argue:
:lmao:
May The Schwartz be with you!
Mike
That was one hell of an opinion, Mike.
Interesting link, looks like when i said man is bad i was right
Well, I'm not a religious man, Shinken, but the words you quoted from the Bible seem to be working for you, you took that one from Mike on the chin without so much as a whimper.
Best regards,
Paul.
demographic is a biker :nana:
I find the notion that in a survival situation nature is the enemy quite interesting. :tapedshut
Anyway, gotta rush,
cya
Mike
I'm reading a book now, "Three Against the Wilderness" by Eric Collier. It's about a family of three surviving in the bush in the 30's and 40's. They homesteaded about 10 kms away from where we are homesteading. Technology, however, has made our survival much easier than theirs of course.
Good read for bushcraft types. In fact maybe a must read to get the feel of the British Columbian interior (Chilcotin area).
Against the wilderness. Battling, fighting, surviving. Is that what we do? You'd think after 60,000 years ...
Also, big bush tools are a must if one lives in the bush here. That's not an opinion.
My closest tools are a chainsaw, an axe, an adze, hookknives, a sledgehammer and an ulu. The front end loader on the tractor is handy. If we had to the only tool we would need to survive would be a hefty 8" knife with belly. Anything under 12cm would not do the job.
If we only had the guts to be responsible for ourselves. I believe the expression is "walk the talk" Paul.
Scott.
http://www.caribooblades.com/Bushcraft-tool-review.html
deepcmonkey
22-11-2007, 21:04
Read the reviews etc.. cheers was very intresting
I'm reading a book now, "Three Against the Wilderness" by Eric Collier. It's about a family of three surviving in the bush in the 30's and 40's. They homesteaded about 10 kms away from where we are homesteading. Technology, however, has made our survival much easier than theirs of course.
Good read for bushcraft types. In fact maybe a must read to get the feel of the British Columbian interior (Chilcotin area).
Against the wilderness. Battling, fighting, surviving. Is that what we do? You'd think after 60,000 years ...
Also, big bush tools are a must if one lives in the bush here. That's not an opinion.
My closest tools are a chainsaw, an axe, an adze, hookknives, a sledgehammer and an ulu. The front end loader on the tractor is handy. If we had to the only tool we would need to survive would be a hefty 8" knife with belly. Anything under 12cm would not do the job.
If we only had the guts to be responsible for ourselves. I believe the expression is "walk the talk" Paul.
Scott.
http://www.caribooblades.com/Bushcraft-tool-review.html
Cariboo,
thanks for sharing that link!
Just had a quick look (will dedicate more time at the WE) and this looks like a valuable resource! Do you have a photo report on how you set up your camps? I'd be very interested in that ;)
Apologies if I have upset anyone with my earlier diatribe but sometimes my nihilistic tendecies show through. :rolleyes: Take it all as friendly banter please :D
TheGreenMan, I guess this thread has firmly established that we all here are entitled to my opinion :deal:
I better shut up now :tapedshut
Nite
Mike
M40 is a member here as well as several other boards. He uses a different name than the one he writes his web page under. You can recognize his writing style if you have been around some of the other sites very long. Of course he is more careful of what he says here.
I generally like him but we disagree on many points. Knives being one. I may be on his AH page, never checked, don't care.
Unlike many Americans I believe a knife is or should be made for cutting. I learned this at the age of 7 when I was chopping a branch on a small tree in the neighborhood. There were several retired guys in the area and a couple of them knew quite a bit about living out in the wild and about life in the old days. One of these guys saw me chopping away and walked over to where I was. I thought he was going to get on to me about hurting the tree, but he told me:
"You have to give it a chance to cut."
I had no idea what he was talking about and he could see that I had no clue. So, he showed me how to cut through the limb in short order. And I must say it was safer, quicker, easier and more effective than my chopping with the small knife. He held the limb bent over a bit and worked the blade into the limb working it in a 'see saw' fashion, back and forth. Not sawing but more of a wiggle, pressing down on one side then the other. He cut right through the limb clean and smooth.
Then he explained to me that you chop with an ax and cut with a knife. Always use the right tool for the job and the right method for the tool.
That was 43 years ago but I remember it like it was yesterday and have tried to live up to his example. So, when I go overnight into the woods I carry a small belt ax and a five inch fixed blade knife along with a couple folding knives. Each has its place.
OzaawaaMigiziNini
23-11-2007, 05:25
I've emailed with M40 before, mostly about my Kukri Machete and the modifications I have made. I respect M40, the guy sticks to what he believes in, and that's something I respect.
I don't think his personal opinions on other subjects should be brought up on the knives thread. But his opinions about knives, can be brought up.. hey if it's in the public eye view, we have the right to critique it right? I have also questioned about the "Bush Blades" page he made. I've carried a Mora knife for several years now, as well as a Swedish Bush blade with a curly birch handle.
When I'm doing a bushcraft-based trip, I will carry several blades, including saws, axes and small knives. Bushcraft is where I believe "Bush Blades" belong, not on a survival-based trip, where I am expected to do everything and anything with one blade. I carry a large blade (before mentioned kukri machete), when I am doing survival-based trips. I've chopped down large saplings, split wood, constructed shelters (including the digging out of roots inside the shelter), skinned and butchered porcupine and many other tasks with the kukri machete. I could not possibly do those tasks with my Mora. But at the same time, I use my Mora for detailed carving of bushcrafts, not for big work.
The right tool for the right job.
So let's agree to disagree, righto?
Unlike many Americans I believe a knife is or should be made for cutting. I learned this at the age of 7 when I was chopping a branch on a small tree in the neighborhood. There were several retired guys in the area and a couple of them knew quite a bit about living out in the wild and about life in the old days. One of these guys saw me chopping away and walked over to where I was. I thought he was going to get on to me about hurting the tree, but he told me:
"You have to give it a chance to cut."
I had no idea what he was talking about and he could see that I had no clue. So, he showed me how to cut through the limb in short order. And I must say it was safer, quicker, easier and more effective than my chopping with the small knife. He held the limb bent over a bit and worked the blade into the limb working it in a 'see saw' fashion, back and forth. Not sawing but more of a wiggle, pressing down on one side then the other. He cut right through the limb clean and smooth.
Then he explained to me that you chop with an ax and cut with a knife. Always use the right tool for the job and the right method for the tool.
That was 43 years ago but I remember it like it was yesterday and have tried to live up to his example. So, when I go overnight into the woods I carry a small belt ax and a five inch fixed blade knife along with a couple folding knives. Each has its place.
Brilliant!
TheGreenMan
23-11-2007, 14:31
...If we only had the guts to be responsible for ourselves. I believe the expression is "walk the talk" Paul...
I only take responsibility for the decisions that I take, Scott, and absolutely nothing else.
All the best,
Paul.
TheGreenMan
23-11-2007, 14:39
...Apologies if I have upset anyone with my earlier diatribe but sometimes my nihilistic tendecies show through. :rolleyes: Take it all as friendly banter please :D...
Mike, if one is going to trash thousand of years of religious culture, with a crass comment or two and a link to someone else’s web site, then one might expect to offend some people :) The least one could do is put up a reasoned, intelligent argument, or choose to say nothing. I’m not a ‘politically correct’ type myself, but I understand the notion of mutual respect, and I’m of the opinion that just because one has the right in some parts of the world to say pretty much what we like, that doesn’t mean we have to trample over the feelings of others just because we can, and at every opportunity.
I appreciate that an in-depth argument and counter-argument about religious philosophy is difficult in a thread about the opinions held by m4040 (who was characterised by some as John Rambo, as if that were a negative thing), and without running the risk of being Moderated, despite the fact that the Moderators and Admins allow an enormous amount of latitude for a thread to wander.
The size of a bush knife is a pretty un-stimulating topic for discussion if one has read this kind of debate a few times. It almost invariably takes the form of individuals expressing their personal preferences without taking into account the location of other members or their traditions. The only truthful conclusion one could come to is that one may need a variety of knives for a variety of purposes and situations, or that one knife can serve many purposes when circumstances dictate and the user’s skill allows.
That’s said, I like to kid around just as much as the next guy, as I think that some of my earlier posts to this thread show :)
Best regards,
Paul.
Mike, if one is going to trash thousand of years of religious culture, with a crass comment or two and a link to someone else’s web site, then one might expect to offend some people :) The least one could do is put up a reasoned, intelligent argument, or choose to say nothing.
Maybe I'm a sauce-pox :rolleyes: and on top of that, was just a bit flabbergasted to find biblical quotes in a thread about the size of knives. I'm quite allergic to preaching which is not exactly a form of reasoned, intelligent argument (that's of course just my opinion)...
I’m not a ‘politically correct’ type myself, but I understand the notion of mutual respect, and I’m of the opinion that just because one has the right in some parts of the world to say pretty much what we like, that doesn’t mean we have to trample over the feelings of others just because we can, and at every opportunity.
I agree!
I appreciate that an in-depth argument and counter-argument about religious philosophy is difficult in a thread about the opinions held by m4040 (who was characterised by some as John Rambo, as if that were a negative thing), and without running the risk of being Moderated, despite the fact that the Moderators and Admins allow an enormous amount of latitude for a thread to wander.
I actually think that the thread has brought up some quite interesting and (at least for me) new thoughts and resources, and also that it gravitated to the original topic quite good!
The size of a bush knife is a pretty un-stimulating topic for discussion if one has read this kind of debate a few times. It almost invariably takes the form of individuals expressing their personal preferences without taking into account the location of other members or their traditions. The only truthful conclusion one could come to is that one may need a variety of knives for a variety of purposes and situations, or that one knife can serve many purposes when circumstances dictate and the user’s skill allows.
Now, that's YOUR opinion, and quite a strong one I would think. ;)
That’s said, I like to kid around just as much as the next guy, as I think that some of my earlier posts to this thread show :)
Best regards,
Paul.
:)
Cheers,
Mike
I'm quite allergic to preachin
My friend i meant no offence, but why are you allergic to it? and not allergic to other people's opinions?
And besides i wasnt preaching, just quoting.
God Bless
TheGreenMan
23-11-2007, 16:36
Maybe I'm a sauce-pox :rolleyes: ...
You are indeed, saucy-pox, Mike, and in general I don’t have a problem with that :) Shinken’s quoting of the Bible took me a little by surprise too, I’ve read a great many posts by him and we have probably exchanged a few dozen PMs and he has never, as far as I remember mentioned his ‘faith’. I did prepare a long reply to his post, but decided not to post it, not because I was challenging some of the ideas he expressed but because it was ‘off topic’.
I agree, that some of the posts in this thread have been informative, I enjoyed several of Cariboo’s posts and particularly the one that informed us that he had actually met m4040, and he wasn’t the ‘**** for brains’ that others may have thought him to be. And I have enjoyed also the posts by Weaver and OzaawaaMigizNini, and indeed some of the humorous ‘off topic’, and non-humorous 'off topic' posts.
What I’m less enthusiastic about are threads that are set-up to be contentious, and by default invite heated debate. I’m not saying that that was your intention, but that was the most likely outcome, hence my first post to the thread. A more obvious example might be a thread with a title such as ‘Axe or Kukri?’, for instance. When I see a thread title like that, I know that it is most likely to result in a ‘hiding to nowhere’ for most of the participants. All that kind of thread does for me these days is cause me to sigh and think ‘here we go’ and deter me from posting because there’s little hope of a meaningful outcome, other than to confirm the idea that it was a good idea that I didn’t post to it.
And when I wrote ‘…The only truthful conclusion one could come to is that one may need a variety of knives for a variety of purposes and situations, or that one knife can serve many purposes when circumstances dictate and the user’s skill allows…’ I honestly believe that that is a truthful statement. It’s the whole debate in a nutshell, with a meaningful conclusion, and that is pretty much all I have to say about what size or shape a knife should be. Controversy no longer interests me, but I’m not saying that controversy shouldn’t appeal to others, it’s my opinion based on my experience, but not a dogmatic ruling.
Lots of love,
Paul :)
did prepare a long reply to his post, but decided not to post it, not because I was challenging some of the ideas he expressed but because it was ‘off topic
there is alway Pm my friend, i got to where i am by being challenged. Actually it's a good thing!
TheGreenMan
23-11-2007, 17:33
Cool, I might put a PM together after the mellowing effects of alcohol (it enhances my feelings of brotherly love :) ), but I doubt it will be tonight, and purely on the basic of 'time management', not my mood. But that said, after a couple of glasses, what I'll be available for is anyone's guess :lmao:
Cheers,
Paul.
deepcmonkey
23-11-2007, 20:16
I did believe this thread was going back on track.
I take nothing away from the guy who this topic is about, where he lives in the US I am sure it is perfectly acceptable to carry large knives ie bowies, kukris' and machetes but here in the UK it is not deemed acceptable nor is it needed and as this forum is called BCUK I think the vast amount of people would agree a small woodlore clone,F1,mora etc..and a Axe will be all you really ever need plus maybe a small lock knife and even then we are on a fine line with the law.
So to that end I am still going with the advice from a Mr Mears and sticking with my girly woodlore, I think it will be big enough to fend off any angry Badgers in a survival situation in my backgarden, lol
British Red
23-11-2007, 20:26
Actually deepc' I'll call (first) the "not true" on that one. A large knife is no more "over the line" than an axe in this country. If you can show " good reason" for an axe, I suspect you could show good reason for a larger knife. If the knife is a fixed blade, whether the blade is 2", 3 ", 4" or 8" is entirely irrelevant. Lets not bring the law into it in a way that has no real bearing in law. If its under 3" in length and a folding, slip joint blade, the law is relevant. Once we are discussing axe vs large knife, we have to show "good reason" and the law has no bearing at all. In the UK the "acceptability" of an axe vs a large knife is irrelevant. Both are "show reason" in the eyes of the law.
Red
deepcmonkey
23-11-2007, 20:43
Actually deepc' I'll call (first) the "not true" on that one. A large knife is no more "over the line" than an axe in this country. If you can show " good reason" for an axe, I suspect you could show good reason for a larger knife. If the knife is a fixed blade, whether the blade is 2", 3 ", 4" or 8" is entirely irrelevant. Lets not bring the law into it in a way that has no real bearing in law. If its under 3" in length and a folding, slip joint blade, the law is relevant. Once we are discussing axe vs large knife, we have to show "good reason" and the law has no bearing at all. In the UK the "acceptability" of an axe vs a large knife is irrelevant. Both are "show reason" in the eyes of the law.
Red
Yea I see your point Red, I am new to using an Axe my self and the only time I will use it will be on a friends private land, so I have no worries there. I do think you will stand more chance in proving a small woody and an Axe are tools though than if carrying a Bowie. However I still believe all these bowie knifes etc.. are complete over kill for any task and if you carry one you are at risk of being branded a Rambo wannabe lol and dont forget to wear those string backed fingerless gloves as well when using any bowie knife lol
As for being more aceptable I think this is a valid point, If I saw maybe a guy at a campsite with a Bowie I would be more inclined to report him (infact I would), then some one carrying a small blade, I really think public perception is valid here.
pothunter
23-11-2007, 21:22
Deepcmonkey
Report him for what?
So you have joined the thought police!
The perception that big knives mean trouble is rubbish, most knives used in crime are kitchen, craft or folders of one variety or another.
Would you report someone for carrying a walking stick or pole, no, but I know which I would rather have if things turn ugly.
Take a look at history, when peasants were pressed into the army during times of unrest (pre-firearms) what did they use, agricultural tools, not knives and they were rough buggers.
Pothunter.
TheGreenMan
23-11-2007, 21:56
I did believe this thread was going back on track...
There is no track, either in life, or on these forums, other than the ones we invent, or those that the Gods hurl at us (I wish I could put a famous name after this, but it was all my own work :D ).
...it is not deemed acceptable nor is it needed and as this forum is called BCUK
You may have unintentionally identified the source of many issues on this forum and others.
Cheers,
Paul.
PS: Just for the record, this last post was the product of four glasses of Fitou :)
deepcmonkey
23-11-2007, 22:00
Deepcmonkey
Report him for what?
So you have joined the thought police!
The perception that big knives mean trouble is rubbish, most knives used in crime are kitchen, craft or folders of one variety or another.
Would you report someone for carrying a walking stick or pole, no, but I know which I would rather have if things turn ugly.
Take a look at history, when peasants were pressed into the army during times of unrest (pre-firearms) what did they use, agricultural tools, not knives and they were rough buggers.
Pothunter.
Umm, I was trying to keep my posts light hearted, I think I failed to explain my self very well, sorry. I dont want to sound like the thought police.
I will put it another way then, at the momment in the UK topic of knives is very hot by the Police and general do gooders, especially with all the knife crime we have at the momment and this is not generally done with kitchen knives at all. To this end I feel the hobby/interest of Bushcraft can only be damaged by the use of large unnessisary knives, this my opinion and you dont have to agree with it. There have been a few posts tonight of members showing their new "Bush Blades" which are beautifull tools and thats what I regard them as and I think they do not look "offensive" This is my perception. No matter what way you put it if some one is brandishing a large bowie/hunter/chopper it will raise eyebrows in the UK. All it will take is one person to get done carrying said large knife and we all be branded a bunch of knife toting nutter survivalists.
Do you want that?I know I dont. So I feel in the UK it is best to err on the side of caution and carry something apporiate, which I think is something small.
TheGreenMan
23-11-2007, 22:27
Umm, I was trying to keep my posts light hearted....
There’s no such thing as 'light hearted' when it comes to blades :)
....I dont want to sound like the thought police....
Well you’re going a good job so far (how’s my attempt a levity going down with you right now? – get my point?).
...I will put it another way then, at the momment in the UK topic of knives is very hot by the Police and general do gooders, especially with all the knife crime we have at the momment and this is not generally done with kitchen knives at all. To this end I feel the hobby/interest of Bushcraft can only be damaged by the use of large unnessisary knives....
Pay it no heed, it’s all out of the control of the lower orders :)
...All it will take is one person to get done carrying said large knife and we all be branded a bunch of knife toting nutter survivalists....
Too late for that one :)
... So I feel in the UK it is best to err on the side of caution and carry something apporiate, which I think is something small.
Fascist :)
Cheers,
Paul.
PS: I know I'm going to regret this.
OzaawaaMigiziNini
24-11-2007, 00:00
I'm starting to see this as perhaps a bit of a cultural divide. In Canada and the USA, our history comes from men with big knives and axes (mountain men, riflemen, HBC, etc etc etc). Canada especially still has alot of wilderness, and often, I am inclined to use a large blade (whether it be a knife or axe), to make living easier. Maybe in the UK, where laws, and smaller wilderness, has caused a loss for such large knives (though I'm sure the Scottish dirk would be used for more than just combat).
Look at the Buffalo Skinner knife and the Jim Baker Knife. Both American masterpieces that were either carried, or models like them carried, by nearly every man in the woods at one point in time. Would they be effective at delicate carving? Maybe not, but skinning, butchering and maybe even killing of wild animals, yes. Were they effective for doing detail work on say, a neckerchief slide? No. But they could chop down poles and boughs for a quick shelter in the middle of a Rocky Mountain blizzard. Often they also carried a small knife (mostly patch knives like the Green River variety), but these were often tucked into their possible bags, and taken out only when they were sitting by the fire, preparing a meal, or whittling a craft.
The bowie style of knife was originally made for killing, but I've seen men skin quarter and butcher whole moose with relative ease with one. Those same men fumbled with such a small blade as a mora or a patch knife. Why? Because they weren't used to such a small blade, but they were masters with a bowie or other large blade.
British Red
24-11-2007, 03:24
To me I think this is a question of tools - not weapons. A 3" to 5" knife is a convenient size for belt carry and a convenient size for many of the more "precise" tasks from carving to eating to small game prep. It probably is the right size for a "first" knife for many people. I don't mean "training" knife - I mean that its a good size and a sensible blend of prtability and utility. Its not though the only solution. Having spent a lot of time "out and about" there have been many occasions when more "length" or "weight" to a knife has been useful. examples
Consider the knives you "use" most - in your kitchen. I have a number of small "paring" knives but the knife I use most in food prep is a 10" bladed razor sharp chefs knife. The extra blade length gives huge advantage in slicing meat, chopping herbs, carving roasts and many other tasks. Indeed it has, many times, been wrapped in a tea towel and come camping with me. My days of eating rubbish food are long gone - so I take proper equipment to prepare proper food.
Also think about shelter building. If building , say, a pole shelter with thatch, the best tool, bar none, is a bill hook, A big, heavy knife is much easier to gather the poles, sharpen stakes, cut thatch and all the other tasks involved than belt knife, axe or saw. A heavy bowie would be a pretty good substitute though.
I could go on, but I suspect the point is made. Some tasks lend themselves to a small knife, others are much more easily accomplished with a longer blade. No selection of tools will be ideal for every task - so you make some choices and work with them. When two of us go out (me and BB as a rule), one of us usually takes an axe and the other a large knife. We rarely need two axes but having the combination of styles of tool means that many tasks are accomplished with more ease than would otherwise be the case
There is nothing "macho" about this - its simply a logical selection of complimentary equipment rather than "duplication". Even Mr Mears needs a long knife to slice his spit roasted venison in "Wild Food" (in fact you often see him using many different knives in that series - of all sorts of styles). So lets see all knives as tools.
Red
OzaawaaMigiziNini
24-11-2007, 07:11
To me I think this is a question of tools - not weapons. A 3" to 5" knife is a convenient size for belt carry and a convenient size for many of the more "precise" tasks from carving to eating to small game prep. It probably is the right size for a "first" knife for many people. I don't mean "training" knife - I mean that its a good size and a sensible blend of prtability and utility. Its not though the only solution. Having spent a lot of time "out and about" there have been many occasions when more "length" or "weight" to a knife has been useful. examples
Consider the knives you "use" most - in your kitchen. I have a number of small "paring" knives but the knife I use most in food prep is a 10" bladed razor sharp chefs knife. The extra blade length gives huge advantage in slicing meat, chopping herbs, carving roasts and many other tasks. Indeed it has, many times, been wrapped in a tea towel and come camping with me. My days of eating rubbish food are long gone - so I take proper equipment to prepare proper food.
Also think about shelter building. If building , say, a pole shelter with thatch, the best tool, bar none, is a bill hook, A big, heavy knife is much easier to gather the poles, sharpen stakes, cut thatch and all the other tasks involved than belt knife, axe or saw. A heavy bowie would be a pretty good substitute though.
I could go on, but I suspect the point is made. Some tasks lend themselves to a small knife, others are much more easily accomplished with a longer blade. No selection of tools will be ideal for every task - so you make some choices and work with them. When two of us go out (me and BB as a rule), one of us usually takes an axe and the other a large knife. We rarely need two axes but having the combination of styles of tool means that many tasks are accomplished with more ease than would otherwise be the case
There is nothing "macho" about this - its simply a logical selection of complimentary equipment rather than "duplication". Even Mr Mears needs a long knife to slice his spit roasted venison in "Wild Food" (in fact you often see him using many different knives in that series - of all sorts of styles). So lets see all knives as tools.
Red
Here here!
I withdraw my previous statements, because British Red stated it much more eloquently.
Couldnt agree more Red!
As for the Canada a large knife and an axe would probably be good. Look at an old civilisation from the same type of climate like sweden. They have the Leuku, axe and puuko. Not just a leuku
TheGreenMan
24-11-2007, 08:22
...I withdraw my previous statements, because British Red stated it much more eloquently.
There’s no need to withdraw anything OMN. Those last few posts from yourself and Red, delineated some intelligent arguments, that managed to cross that cultural divide you mentioned.
Best regards,
Paul.
If I saw maybe a guy at a campsite with a Bowie I would be more inclined to report him (infact I would), then some one carrying a small blade, I really think public perception is valid here.
fairly horrifying hopefully the police would prosicute you for wasting police time (however they probably wouldnt be allowed
Perception INSNT breaking a law
Do you report every car you see they are all capable of being driven over 70mph which is illegal and cars kill 100 times more people a year than knives
NO because the cars you genrally see are legal to own and being used in a perfectly legal way
KNIVES are not illegal (bar the very few types Flick etc) and those handed in on an Amnesty :rolleyes: could legally be bought the same day in a shop next to the police station FFS they dont tell you how many knives sold in cook shops the day they say how many nasty killing things they have taken of the street do they
as you know all this anyway
I assume you mean if you saw a guy with a knife breaking a Law you would report him as would I and thats a knife of any size or an axe etc or even a bit of wood
hope i dont wind up on the same site as you my camp knife above a small un is a Large kukri (though im starting to apreciate the virtues of a Cegga Axe) and im very carful to only use it legally ie with in the Law not with in perception
this is public perception as well and you can stick it
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=495910&in_page_id=1770
Oks ::Rant off ::
deepcmonkey
24-11-2007, 11:39
Red, Very well put.
To the others that have quoted me, I am no academic and as a result of this I have oviously not gotten the point across I was trying to make. Instead of reading my posts in the entirity you have decided to quote a few lines that I have written and concentrate on that and pretty much ignore every thing else I have written.
To FGYT, I think you need to get off your high horse mate, the injured Soldiers from Iraq have nothing to do with this topic and having left the Forces my self not to long ago, I am quite angry you have decided to put it here, with some sort of intent to refering I am that sort of person.
As for reporting said individual with large knife, I did not mean ring the Police, I would however speak to the campsite manager/group leader and tell them I feel it inoprriate. Whether or not you agree with me I dont really care.
Sorry if the Soldier thing offends it was not my intention or to suggest this is you it was an example of a public perseption forcing some people of doing something perfectly aqcceptable/legal but being stopped by some one objecting to it on some personnal grounds. so would it now be acceptable for them not to use the pool because poeple object even though its legally oks IE self regulate
Yes your not the only one with an army number :rolleyes:
and i do unfortunatly jump on the odd horse now and again
yes i have read your posts entierly and you did not indicate anything about who you where reporting to teh police are teh main logical choice Or what circumstances etc however it would seem a little if the guy/Gal was chopping fire wood next to their camp and fire (assuming fires permmitted) that you would report to the manager if they where using a big knife but not if they where using an axe or battoning a Bushy all of which are the same in the eyes of the Law.
I take nothing away from the guy who this topic is about, where he lives in the US I am sure it is perfectly acceptable to carry large knives ie bowies, kukris' and machetes but here in the UK it is not deemed acceptable nor is it needed and as this forum is called BCUK I think the vast amount of people would agree a small woodlore clone,F1,mora etc..and a Axe will be all you really ever need plus maybe a small lock knife and even then we are on a fine line with the law.
the fine line with the law remains what ever you carry over a 3" folder if you have a good reason your oks if you dont your over the line
and an axe will make a real mess of a person
but as you have said this is your opinion and you are free to have it just dont expect others to agree
My opinion that self regulating like this only makes it worse
" They must be bad they hide them or dont use them " etc
our local scout group wont even use a Mora type/style for Knife and axe training "cos that type is used to kill people" :eek: they use a Leatherman/SAK and an Axe very sad IMO all because of perceved public opinion ' Well if the scouts think they are bad they must be ' etc or 'oh isnt it good little jonney donst use those nasty knife thingys at scouts i wouldnt let him go other wise '
see off on another horse again :rolleyes:
ATB
Duncan
deepcmonkey
24-11-2007, 20:03
Well probably now a good thing that you mentioned about the pool incident, great news what Red is doing.
Like I have said I think I explained my self poorly, my fault I know and I apologise. I guess it is up to the individual to carry whatever tools they feel appropriate for the tasks they will be doing.
Regards to all Deepc
Just one thing though...whatever tool one may choose, keep it sharp.
deepcmonkey
24-11-2007, 20:25
Just one thing though...whatever tool one may choose, keep it sharp.
Good point lol
Cariboo,
thanks for sharing that link!
Just had a quick look (will dedicate more time at the WE) and this looks like a valuable resource! Do you have a photo report on how you set up your camps? I'd be very interested .
Mike
I want to see his camp set-ups as well. The author of the review is going to send some soon. Very nice of him to write the article so I'll wait patienty.
Cheers,
Scott
I want to see his camp set-ups as well. The author of the review is going to send some soon. Very nice of him to write the article so I'll wait patienty.
Cheers,
Scott
Ah, excellent, cheers! Now I've got someting to look forward to. :red:
Looking at the topic from the perspective of OzaawaaMigiziNini about the cultural divide etc. (cool nic btw, what does it mean if I may ask :) ) I think makes a lot of the points very clear. Good post, I agree!
It's funny, when I first came to the UK 4 years ago (and I basically knew nothing about the place), the first thing that I noticed was that there is no woodlands/ forests here!
OK, there is small patches, the Forests of Dean & New Forest etc., but no real large scale forests. In Germany, most of the middle and southern bit are full of forests (just look at Hessia at Google Earth). And Germany is nothing compared to places like Scandinavia, Canada, USA or even Russia). There's so much forest/ natural habitat there it's unbelievable!
To sum up, the wilder the place, the bigger the tools I guess... And of course taking into consideration what was said before here, aproppriate tool for appropriate job etc. And keep it sharp, of course ;)
Damn, haven't built in any banter in this post, I get mellow :rolleyes:
One last thought about the legal issues with knives here in the UK... I never got my head around this, and I think there is too much worry about this. Have the sharp tools in your pack and only bring them out in the woods when you need them. Then there's no problem. This is of course not the best option but seems to be the best & most sensible approach here in the UK. Only my legally uninformed opinion of course.
Hope you all had a fantastic WE!
Mike
Personally, I use a small mora length knife, be it a mora an F1 or a Bark River knife. If I need to chop something, I'll use an axe. Saying that, I recently ordered a large Mora knife, it looks like a big mora basically, and it is excellent at swift chopping cuts. I haven't put it fully through its' paces yet, but it is surprisingly good. The thing is, i wouldn't take just that knife.
My Dad has carried a bowie knife for years, a Western Bowie in fact. He said that the only problem he ever had with it was that it was so wide that carving became a problem. He couldn't get a tight radius and had problems making feather sticks. I'm not saying it is impossible to make feather sticks with one, before somebody gets uppity, but the knife didn't work for him. So, he chose a smaller knife. It does what he needs.
To say that a bowie is the be all and end all of knife requirements in the outdoors is a bit short sighted IN MY OPINION. A small utility blade is always helpful. You may be able to skin out a buffalo with a 12" Bowie, but you may find it easier to skin a squirrel with a smaller blade!
It's funny, when I first came to the UK 4 years ago (and I basically knew nothing about the place), the first thing that I noticed was that there is no woodlands/ forests here!
You're not wrong there, Germany has some awesome woodland, I spent three days on a trip in the Bergen Hohne area and never saw another person.
One last thought about the legal issues with knives here in the UK... I never got my head around this, and I think there is too much worry about this. Have the sharp tools in your pack and only bring them out in the woods when you need them. Then there's no problem. This is of course not the best option but seems to be the best & most sensible approach here in the UK. Only my legally uninformed opinion of course.
Hope you all had a fantastic WE!
Mike
When i used to go camping with my Dad, we kept our knives in our packs until we got out in the sticks. Whenever we came upon civilisation, we'd stop on the outskirts of town and put them away again. There really is no need to carry a large bowie at your side in the UK! Not until we get a zombie problem at least!
:D
OzaawaaMigiziNini
26-11-2007, 04:58
Looking at the topic from the perspective of OzaawaaMigiziNini about the cultural divide etc. (cool nic btw, what does it mean if I may ask :) ) I think makes a lot of the points very clear. Good post, I agree!
Mike
It's my Ojibway name. An Indian medicine woman named Dianne Longboat gave it to me when I was 13 years of age.
Ozaawaa = Golden
Migizi = Eagle
Nini = Man
She had a big speech about the reasons for the name, but it can be summarized as "Leader for the young ones". Stuck with me ever since. Most folks can't pronounce it, so they just call me Oz :cool: .
OzaawaaMigiziNini
26-11-2007, 04:59
When i used to go camping with my Dad, we kept our knives in our packs until we got out in the sticks. Whenever we came upon civilisation, we'd stop on the outskirts of town and put them away again. There really is no need to carry a large bowie at your side in the UK! Not until we get a zombie problem at least!
:D
Watching the zombie marches that happen over here when Hallowe'en is upon us, it's no wonder books like the "Zombie Survival Guide" have been written:D
pothunter
26-11-2007, 10:11
Spam the zombies are already here!
pothunter
26-11-2007, 11:03
Belated reply to Deepcmonkey's comments re my last post,
Most offenses committed with knives are 'domestics' and most surprisingly women against men using kitchen knives But these are not news, we hear about kids with knives because the offenses are committed in public in front of other kids showing off rarely do they result in wounding or worse but when they do its front page news and something for the nationals to campaign about. Additionally we also have the Police trying to influence law making and playing politics instead of carrying out their core responsibility the protection of life and property for which they already have more that sufficient powers.
When looked at rationally I believe the problem ages are 15-18 with very few offenses committed by over 21's, although this is anecdotal and I have no data to support this.
The problem that legitimate knife users have is the scatter gun approach that the media driven law makers in this country have. There is no longer any distinction between an offensive weapon and a tool so we all suffer from an oppressive legal system that continues to alienate the public building barriers between people, police and the legal system.
The answer to this 'according to me, so it is the answer' is to have a review of our legal system that is remote from and independent of political interference. Unfortunately this is not possible because our current government now 'owns' The House of Lords so basically we have a dictatorship.
What I would commend anyone to read who is interested in the law is the 1686 Bill of Rights, defined as the rights of all Englishmen "These Rights are The Bill of Rights , they are everyone's for all time" However trampled they are these make the broad basis for most of our common and criminal law today.
Pothunter
John Fenna
26-11-2007, 16:44
Not only are the Zombies here they are the Law makers!
Those not making great music anyway.....
You're not wrong there, Germany has some awesome woodland, I spent three days on a trip in the Bergen Hohne area and never saw another person.
When i used to go camping with my Dad, we kept our knives in our packs until we got out in the sticks. Whenever we came upon civilisation, we'd stop on the outskirts of town and put them away again. There really is no need to carry a large bowie at your side in the UK! Not until we get a zombie problem at least!
:D
Huge Zombi problem here. People without a clue.
In our region there is a thriving German community. Very environmentally astute and self sufficient. Families producing the highest quality organic foods. A family we know has a ranch where they raise buffalo and grassfed, organic beef. Germans seem to take to the bush here and the more rugged the better.
As far as big knives, bowies and camp knives , Germans by far are our best customers for big knives.
Also, here is a picture of a style of small game skinning knife . From squirrels to moose.
http://www.caribooblades.com/Neck_Knife_skinning_300.jpg
Scott