View Full Version : Dartmoor, again....and not good.
Great Pebble
05-08-2004, 17:06
Having sung the praises of the Dartmoor since purchasing it at Christmas, I've just suffered a failure with it which is not only irritating, but positively dangerous.
I was in the garden attempting to cut a "hearth" for demonstration purposes, and was chopping fairly heavily at a piece of Apple wood when the "rubber" outer coating on the handle became detatched from the pastic inner on a down stroke, the blade almost flew off down the garden, I managed to retain it.
Before I'd given the matter much thought I applied a few dabs of super glue to the inner plastic and set the outer back on again, but now, thinking about it, I'm not happy to use the blade again for any sort of heavy work. I'm also annoyed that I attempted a repair as I would have liked to take the matter up with WS, I probably can't now.
I feel this to be a major safety issue and I'm not a bit pleased, to say the least.
That is a major issue that I feel needs reporting to Wilkinson Sword. Never mind that you had to carry out a field expedient repair - that's not the reason you are complaining and doesn't detract from the actual flaw.
Nick, this specific tool is advertised as being able to handle this sort of work, I would imagine that this would be covered under your warranty and considering the amount of money that these are sold for it would definitely be worth taking it up with WS.
The other thing, if this is supposed to be a tool for survival then it has failed in a relatively short space of time, I don't know how often it has been used since Christmas, but think of it like this, in a survival situation this will be used heavilly every day.
If you had been stuck somewhere for 3 months this tool probably would of failed at around the midweek of week 4 (24days), not very good (probably a good reason that the armed forces don't use them). :-)
Great Pebble
05-08-2004, 18:37
It has been heavily used, but has never been abused.
I've never done anything with it that I wouldn't call "reasonable" for a knife of this size/design.
Not quite sure what to make of it.
To add insult to injury, or injury to insult even, I have since managed to nick myself while brightening my old MOD knife to use in the stead of the Dartmoor on my trip next week, still considering whether or not I'm going to need a stitch.
All in all, not having a good day.
Definitely report this to WS and let us know what you discover. No way should this be happening.
RovingArcher
05-08-2004, 19:22
I agree with the rest that you should report this to WS. That blade should not have failed in anyway in that short a span of time.
Most companies will bend over backwards to make up for the inconvenience, disappointment and the saving of their reputation. Excellent customer service is a must have...
Great Pebble
06-08-2004, 14:12
E-mailed them this AM laying out the nature of the failure and explaining that I felt it to be a particularly dangerous defect and hence was not prepared simply to contact the vendor.
Have asked for a representative to contact me soonest, I'll give it about ten days or and then follow up with a letter.
I know I should probably have used the Royal Mail in the first instance, but if e-mail gets a response, so much the better.
Will keep you advised of any developments.
E-mailed them this AM laying out the nature of the failure and explaining that I felt it to be a particularly dangerous defect and hence was not prepared simply to contact the vendor.
Have asked for a representative to contact me soonest, I'll give it about ten days or and then follow up with a letter.
I know I should probably have used the Royal Mail in the first instance, but if e-mail gets a response, so much the better.
Will keep you advised of any developments.
I'll be interested to see how this develops :naughty:
I'd telephone them if they don't respond over the next couple of days.
I spoke to Vanessa in Sales and Marketing, she's was very helpful when I called about the Dartmoor.
I'm going to check my handle over when I get home. Don't want that coming loose like yours did........it could have been fatal if someone had been close by.
I've worked with Vanessa and she's always very helpful. I'm sure she will do whatever she can.
Great Pebble
14-08-2004, 20:41
Back from a week (almost) in the woods, to discover that "A Vannessa from Wilkinson Something-Or-Other" had indeed 'phoned. Too bad I missed her.
However, I also have a e-mail from the same lady advising that I should contact her and arrange for a courier to call and collect the Dartmoor as they want to "examine" it, this being the first report of such a failure.
More as it happens etc.
Great Pebble
20-08-2004, 15:27
Dartmoor was collected by courier Wednesday.
Got a phone call this morning from Vanessa, the techie bods at Wilkinson had looked at it and could determine no reason for the failure. My knife will be sent to the States for further testing, which is, unfortunately, destructive.....
I have been offered a new Dartmoor, from the numbered batch which I'm more than happy to accept.
I must say that WS really couldn't have acted any quicker in this matter and in terms of phone calls and e-mails I was kept abreast at every stage, good work.
I have asked to be informed of the eventual findings of the testing and will pass on any info.
rapidboy
22-08-2004, 18:53
Sounds like WS customer care is spot on.
Glad to hear you got it sorted.
RB
Great Pebble
24-08-2004, 17:57
Hmmm....
Having thought the matter closed, to good effect. I've recieved a note from them today asking if the knife had ever been subject to "extremes of heat or cold", "contact with liquid chemicals" or "extremely wet conditions". not sure what to make of that.
Hmmm....
Having thought the matter closed, to good effect. I've recieved a note from them today asking if the knife had ever been subject to "extremes of heat or cold", "contact with liquid chemicals" or "extremely wet conditions". not sure what to make of that.
GP, you did point out that you are in Northern Ireland :lol: .
Great Pebble
24-08-2004, 19:19
I did actually consider pointing out that something described as a "survival knife" might, possibly be expected to take extremes of hot and cold or wet conditions in it's stride. I confined myself to mentioning that the knife i'm using at the moment, also a Wilkinson designed survival knife, albeit some 20 years old, is not as pleasant to use but does manage to retain it's essential components....
rapidboy
24-08-2004, 19:43
Did you receive the replacement knife yet?
Great Pebble
24-08-2004, 20:15
No,
Apparently it won't be sent until they determine what caused the failure in the first place, up to a couple of weeks according to the e-mail I got this afternoon.
Not sure what to make of it, certainly a more formal tone to todays contact than the ones I had previously.
rapidboy
24-08-2004, 20:29
:***: that ,
It seems pretty unfair that you are without a knife while they "determine why it failed" , i would be on the phone every day giving them an ear bending.
Hope you get it sorted soon mate ,let us know how it turns out.
RB
Great Pebble
24-08-2004, 21:11
:?: Like I said, not entirely sure what to make of it.
The impression that I had on Friday was that the knife was going to be subject to destructive testing and that a replacement would be sent as they obviously couldn't return my own blade once it had been - well, destructively tested.
After the e-mail I recieved today, I'm not so sure. It could be construed to mean that any replacement will be conditional upon their findings, which, considering that my own knife will by then be no more, does rather leave me wondering.....
Great Pebble,
I suggest that you familiarize yourself with the following acts:
Sale of Goods Act 1979. Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982. Sale and Supply of Goods Act 1994. The Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002.
http://www.dti.gov.uk/ccp/topics1/facts/salegoodsact.htm
In particular:
Wherever goods are bought they must "conform to contract". This means they must be as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality (i.e. not inherently faulty at the time of sale).
If a consumer chooses to request a repair or replacement, then for the first six months after purchase it will be for the retailer to prove the goods did conform to contract (e.g. were not inherently faulty)
I would insist on an IMMEDIATE replacement, quoting the above acts and if such a replacement isn't forthcoming, take legal steps. Their process in determining the cause is irrelevant to the issue of their product failing.
Great Pebble
24-08-2004, 21:32
I'll be on the 'phone in the morning to clarify exactly what the situation is.
As I'd mentioned back up the thread I had found WS to be most efficient and courteous in their handling of the affair, I may be reading to much into today's communique.
Hmmm....
Having thought the matter closed, to good effect. I've recieved a note from them today asking if the knife had ever been subject to "extremes of heat or cold", "contact with liquid chemicals" or "extremely wet conditions". not sure what to make of that.
Well,
To my mind and given its a survival knife I'd say if you survived then conditions wern't that extreme! Unless of course you dunked it in acid to get some dirt off, then lobbed it in a lake to clean the acid off, retrived it and threw it in the fire to dry it out then stuck it in the freezer to cool it down again :o):
Cheers
David
The General
24-08-2004, 22:03
Irritating to say the least... :shock:
what became of this in the end?
dave750gixer
09-09-2004, 14:46
Well,
To my mind and given its a survival knife I'd say if you survived then conditions wern't that extreme! Unless of course you dunked it in acid to get some dirt off, then lobbed it in a lake to clean the acid off, retrived it and threw it in the fire to dry it out then stuck it in the freezer to cool it down again :o):
Cheers
David
Maybe they are just making sure that isnt what happened. After all its gone to the States and look at some of the stupid things people have done there (drying wet pets in microwave oven etc). Maybe they just want to check you didnt try to retemper the blade to a different hardness and then cryogenically treat it to relaeve stresses without dissassembling it first!
What I find odd is how when a product fails there are different responses that a company can give:
1 - Apologize for the failure and give you a replacement and possibly some later explaination of what happened.
2 - Argue the toss with you.
3 - Want to draw you, the customer, in to a discussion with some obscure tech department over how the product can be bettered. This is OK if you have the time and want to put in the effort but having to hang on for a replacement in the interim is not OK. Also, generally consultants need paying and there are times when it's really grated me to have bought something that turned out to be shoddy and then have to become some sort of free consultant to better the product.
As its been said, i'd be on the phone the phone to them everyday, thats an expensive product!
Great Pebble
18-09-2004, 19:48
Just to keep you informed....
I last heard from WS on Thursday, having contacted them myself that morning and they are "still waiting for a report" from the USA.
I doubt if I'll be contacting them directly again.
I'll give it another little while then see what the options are.
Tantalus
18-09-2004, 19:52
3.5 weeks , no explanation and no knife?
:yikes:
Tant
Great Pebble
18-09-2004, 19:59
Actually a month to the day since it was collected (today) :?:
I'm a tad browned off, in fact I was a tad browned off when it seperated into two parts.
It does rather worry me too, it's not as if it's purely a cosmetic defect if it does happen to someone else they might not be as lucky with preventing a blade on it's ballistic trajectory from penetrating something...
Anyway, we live and learn.
Edit:- As an aside, I have a friend who works in the "testing busted things" industry, whatever the proper name is. He works with metal, but according to a colleague of his in the "plastics" bit. They would have returned a job of that nature in 48 hours or less, further he reckoned that in 99% of such cases a semi experienced technician will identify the problem on sight. Possibly apocryphal "in the pub" tales but they are civil servants......
Its unexceptable that a company should behave like this. The least they could do is to give you a temporay or permanant replacement or your money back.
I have always been wary of rubber handle knives since the one one my Cold Steel Trailmaster started to melt. Its quite common I think for rubber handles to break from the steel tang under heavy use which is why I wouldn't buy another rubber handle knife regardless of whoever made it.
Great Pebble
18-09-2004, 21:33
A few years back I bought some bottles of lager, as you do, and upon opening one was met with a distinctly unpleasant smell. Upon examination the bottle appeared to have "something" growing in it, I assume it was yeast or something. Anyway I popped it away under the sink and fired off a letter to the brewery in question.
Within the week there was a pleasant chap at the door apologising, offering vouchers for replacement beer and generally trying to make up for the situation. He didn't want to recover the bottle but suggested pouring it down the loo.
I still buy their lager....
'Nuff said.
Tantalus
18-09-2004, 21:59
seems to me that ws has done the opposite here tho
equivalent of taking your lager away for tests and leaving you with nothing to drink for a month
Tant
Great Pebble
18-09-2004, 22:03
Indeed...
I have always been wary of rubber handle knives since the one one my Cold Steel Trailmaster started to melt. Its quite common I think for rubber handles to break from the steel tang under heavy use which is why I wouldn't buy another rubber handle knife regardless of whoever made it.
Only the outer portion is rubber. It wraps around a heavy polymer handle which then fits snugly around the tang.
Great Pebble
19-09-2004, 04:00
I should reiterate that I actually really liked it. It served my purpose admirably.
I think the problem with rubber handles is fundemental regardless of wheher its attached to tang handle or not. The rubber will deform locally when stressed and put stress at local points and cause the bond to break especially after repeated high stresses which survival knives are often subject to. A non yielding handle will have to deformed gobally and the stress is spread out and lower because energy is needed to deform the non yielding material. In addition, most handles made from non yielding materials will have additional rivets or bolts to add rigidity and structual strength.
I think the problem with rubber handles is fundemental regardless of wheher its attached to tang handle or not.
I've never been a big fan of rubber handles either but the point I'm trying to make is that the handle is not ALL rubber. Even if the rubber part deteriorated and was lost, there would still be a substantial part of the handle left and the knife could still be used. More handle would be left than even on most slab-sided full tang knives if their scales popped off for some reason. And then, even if the polymer part underneath broke, you would still have a substantial tang beneath that that you could wrap with duct tape or rubber innertube to make it serviceable.
rapidboy
20-09-2004, 14:47
Terrible treatment from WS.
Are they aware of this thread and the bad reputation they are creating for themselves.
They do also make that other knife that is so popular around here!! ,a bad rep for after sales service and warranty will hurt sale's of that as well as the Dartmore.
Great Pebble ,i know you liked you knife and it's design but at this stage i would be wanting a refund and not a replacement.
RB
I had considered buying a micarta woodlore for my mates birthday present. after this fiasco I have decided to spread my wealth elsewhere.
WS have made a serious blunder really bad PR.
I bought a secondhand book online and it never arrived. i emailed the company after a month to let them know it had not arrived, within a 48 hrs I had been given a full refund.
Great Pebble
22-09-2004, 19:14
Right we are then....
Phonecall this afternoon. The engineers were unable to reproduce the same failure in the other handles they tested..... However... The handle design of the Dartmoor is being changed, modified, whatever to ensure that the same "slippage" can't happen again.
Will be getting a 'call at the start of Oct. (date agreeed) to arrange delivery of another knife (once the modified handles appear).
Ever get the feeling that there's corporate eyes on BCUK?
rapidboy
22-09-2004, 19:24
Glad to hear you got it sorted out mate.
Make sure you bring it to the meet :wink:
rb
I think your right about companies checking this forum, might be good thing though, as they learn a thing or two!
Good stuff.
Shame it took them a while.
Right we are then....
Phonecall this afternoon. The engineers were unable to reproduce the same failure in the other handles they tested..... However... The handle design of the Dartmoor is being changed, modified, whatever to ensure that the same "slippage" can't happen again.
Will be getting a 'call at the start of Oct. (date agreeed) to arrange delivery of another knife (once the modified handles appear).
Ever get the feeling that there's corporate eyes on BCUK?
A question or more, if the engineers at WS were unable to replicate this fault, why then would they want to change the handle design :?:
If they are replaceing your knife with one that has the new improved handles, that will ensure that the fault that they could not replicate doesn't happen again, are they then admitting that the old Dartmoor knife may have a fundamental flaw :?:
Does this mean that there will be a recall of Dartmoors :?:
Great Pebble
22-09-2004, 21:07
In order...
I assume because whether they could do it to another one or not, mine patently slipped, presumably whatever they do will ensure that it can't happen again...
Dunno
Dunno
I'll let you know when I see it if the handle is visibly different.
Tantalus
22-09-2004, 21:18
so 2 months without a knife??
that is a pretty sucky deal mate
just dont buy a used car off em , promise????
Tant
Cheers for keeping us informed on this as it unfolds Nick :biggthump
Cheers for keeping us informed on this as it unfolds Nick :biggthump
I thought the Dartmoor was a fixed blade :naughty: