View Full Version : Has anyone seen this before?
Has anyone seen this before ?
www.iswba.com/individualmembers.htm
Is there now some kind of legislation or organisation?
Who are the founder members?
Has anyone seen this before ?
www.iswba.com/individualmembers.htm
Is there now some kind of legislation or organisation?
Who are the founder members?
If you know where to look you can find out a lot of info about websites ...
http://www.whois.sc/iswba.com
Yeah, the schools were talking about setting this up for themselves last year, it looks like the bigger schools have gone ahead and set it up themselves. I note that there are none of the smaller schools in the list, I presume that the bigger schools are the founding members of it. Usually there is a list explaining who the founding members of associations are.
Unless they’re a government department of some kind there is no authority to legislate.
Well spotted Chris. By the way, you ok? I noticed that you’ve deleted all of your other posts, most of which were to do with those schools :?: :werd: Just wondering if the new forum is playing up for you?
Cheers
tenbears10
04-08-2004, 20:25
As far as I see (quick glance) it doesn't say the listed schools endorse the site are you sure they know about it? I say this because a kid could design a better website, take that back kids hack google, an adult could do a better site :wink:
It doesn't strike me as something I would want my name on if I was Bison Bushcraft or Woodlore. The people at Woodlore are dead helpful with all sorts of questions so you could contact them for more info on the site. Just my humble opinion so no offence if anyone here is the webmaster.
Bill
I'm with tenbears here - I dont think this is genuine.
tenbears10
04-08-2004, 21:11
you wouldn't want to see bearclaw on it would you Gary? Doesn't look very professional is my impression.
Bill
I'm fine thanks Tony, been away, I will pm you about what happened on the other posts.
I thought this was fake, I got an email reply from Boulder Survival School, they never heard of it and are looking into it, so are Arktis.
The WHOIS site will not let me read the page without joining something, has anybody been able to read this, who is the site owner, because it's very vague, no contact names, no founder member name etc
Without offending anyone, It does look a bit bogus, wonder if the other companies Know about this.
Thanks for the feedback
Chris
The WHOIS site will not let me read the page without joining something, has anybody been able to read this, who is the site owner, because it's very vague, no contact names, no founder member name etc
Here ya go Chris...
The following information has been copied from the public source http://www.whois.sc/iswba.com which is public domain....
The name and address has been removed at the request of the domain owner and administrative contact for the ISWBA
Looks to me like they've appointed themselvs as some kind of authority in the industry.
Let me see, what shall I be today - I will be king - anyone want to join my gang? :rolleyes:
Talk about old boys - gurd grief! :roll:
I would ask this.
By what authority do these commercial organisations, set themselves up as an industry authority?
Certainly, as the leading profit making organisations in the industry, they should fund an independant authority, but no representatives from the commercial organisations should sit on the board, or have any influence over who gets membership and who doesnt.
I wonder of the legality of this?
...and why is there only one monopolies commision?
Anyone know the address of the bushcraft ombudsman? :o):
Hey, can I join your gang Martyn ... and have letters after my name!!! :o):
And if that ISWBA isn't your cup of tea, you could always try this one:
http://www.bowlingrus.com/ISWBA/ISWBA.htm
On a serious note though, I am concerned to see that this associationis being used to reassure potential clients that the will be provided with professional and safe tuition ... http://www.survivalschool.co.uk/Home2004.htm
So, let me work through this ... set up an association and then use that to reassure potential clients as to the quality of the service you yourself provide. Hmmm ....
.. and if you are still in any doubts as to the links between the two, take a look at the title of this page (the title is the bit that appears at the top of the browser window): http://www.iswba.com/CONSTITUTION.htm
Unbelievable, :yikes:
well done on exsposing this for what it is, I've been checking with the other companies listed, they have never heard of it and have made a point of distancing themselves from it, it does seem like one persons attempt to make themselves look good to the potential paying public,although you would think that the creator would have thought to let people know that they were now members of his gang. :nono:
Good work :super:
Chris
I have just spoken to woodsmoke and woodlore and they had no knowleadge of this website and were not aware that they were listed as members
how shallow and calculating can you get?
from the Survival School (http://www.survivalschool.co.uk/Home2004.htm) website:
"Survival School is proud to be a member of the International Survival and Wilderness Bushcraft Association. When you click on the logo above you should be directed through to the ISWBA website. On the members page you will find the list of members. This is your reassurance that you are dealing with an organisation that will provide you with professional and safe tuition."
This is truly appalling, the more that is discovered about this the worse it looks.
Surely this is a massive abuse of not just fair trading standards but also of the trust of the paying public, not to mention the trust of their fellow peers in the industry.
Look deeper at the statement that they have "HSE approval", the HSE do not give any approval to this type of training, only 1st aid appionted persons courses are given approval.
Good to hear the rest of the industry are distancing themselves from it, I'm amazed at the desperate tactics being used here by one person/company. :nono:
Chris
I have spoken to woodcraft they discovered the site yesterday but before then they too were not aware that they were listed as members
the HSE do not give any approval to this type of training, only 1st aid appionted persons courses are given approval.
But the HSE are involved with checking the teaching area beit woodland or classroom. They need to check fire regs are followed and tools and equipment stored safely.... ie just not left around... they have a whole checklist to go through. We've just had 17 acres of land checked by an HSE officer for a new environmental youth project, it doesn't take long though.
Ed
Arktis also claims no knowledge of this website or that they are listed as members
I feel left out for not being on it!! :rolmao: :rolmao: :rolmao:
I feel left out for not being on it!! :rolmao: :rolmao: :rolmao:
:nana:
Good point Gary,
There is a lot of companies left out, on that note, I wonder how Survival School compiled the list of who they thought should be in the club and who they thought should not be in the club.
One word for this, MEGALOMANIA, (Oxford dictionary = craving for or mental delusions of power)
Boulder Outdoor survival School DID NOT know they were on it, :shock: upto now that is.
Chris
I feel left out for not being on it!! :rolmao: :rolmao: :rolmao:
Never mind Gary, you could always join the ISWBA (Idaho State Womens Bowling Association) that Adi linked to. Then you could put "member of ISWBA" on your website to impress everyone. :rolmao:
Looks like what it is
rubbish :chill:
http://www.britishblades.com/pics/bs.jpg
:rolmao: :rolmao: :rolmao:
MartiniDave
06-08-2004, 09:29
Well, I've just formed the British Bushcraft Council. Phoned channel 4 about getting a series, I think the chap was a Russian cos what he said ended in "ov"!
Anyway, once you've all paid me your subs you can carve your spoons in confidence! :wave: :wave:
so you you told the guy from channel 4 you were from the B.B.C. :roll:
:o):
cheers, and.
MartiniDave
06-08-2004, 14:55
so you you told the guy from channel 4 you were from the B.B.C.
That's right, and I said I'd got a great idea for a tv series based on an audatious raid from world war 2, the series would be called -
"The real Kelly's Heros"
I was particularly looking forward to drinking all that looted vino!
Dave
:o): :o): :rolmao: :biggthump :rolmao: :o): :super:
bushwacker bob
06-08-2004, 15:17
I expect the solicitors acting for one of the prominent shools are now on the case. :wink: you can't use a trade mark without permission :nono:
I'm not sure if trademark law covers this issue
trademark law only comes into effect when a trademark is used (i.e. a logo or a name in a particular font and colour) in such a way as to mislead the public
simply stating the companys name is not a trademark issue as long as you are stating fact (if what you are stating is false then its slander)
however in this case the 'association' has implied that the company endorses them whilst this may not be a trademark issue I'm sure there is grounds for legal action.
at the very least it is incredibly rude and unprofessional
It should be noted that i am not legally trained and as such i may be wrong I would be interested to hear the veiw of someone with a legal background on this matter
MartiniDave
06-08-2004, 15:40
Please note also that my tongue is firmly in my cheek!
However, you can still send me the subscriptions if you wish!
Cheques payable to CASH, a subsidiary of the British Bushcraft Council.
I theng you!
<[I]Waits with interest to discover what CASH is an acronym for...>
MartiniDave
06-08-2004, 15:52
Crafters' Axe Sharpening Helpline??
HELP, I'm bored and I wanna go home!
bushwacker bob
06-08-2004, 16:08
<[I]Waits with interest to discover what CASH is an acronym for...>
Cor,Anyone Still Here?
Seriously though has anybody contacted the Survival school to give them a chance to reply. It does seem bad to claim an association that does not exist. i would be interested to hear what they have got to say on the matter. Its easy to have a trial by media.
I would be very suprised if Drew and Johnny from survival school have not already read this post, and if they have anything to say on the matter they are free to do so here
Looks like there have been some changes on the site ... the page listing corporate members is now gone, but new outdoors schools have been added to the list ...
Ya I see what you mean Adi, however corporate list is still there and a list of fellows - I wonder how they feel about this 'fellowship of the thing'?
I'm sure Lars Falt and Mors kochanski are most delighted!
I have a bad feeling about all this - :yikes:
I trust our members from over the pond will let there respective US schools know that they have been added to this association!
bushbasher
08-08-2004, 18:22
I recently contacted the Survival school to express an interest in any freelance instructing work. It came as quite a surprise to be informed that my years of expedition and bushcraft experience counted for nothing without the paper qualifications endorsed and invented by them.
I feel that it is in the interest of everyone who is actively involved in Bushcraft instruction to discredit any organisation that attempts to set themselves up as a governing body for an activity that has so far remained largely unaffected by the ludicrous legislation and beaurocracy that has ruined many other fields of outdoor pursuits. :?:
Well said Bushbasher.
This has got to be one of the worst displays of arrogance and egotism that I have witnessed in 47 years on planet earth.
Some questions to survival school
Who do you think you are?
Who give you the authority and right to do this?
Why have you not contacted the rest of your industry about this?
How on earth do you think this is legal?
Why have you excluded over half of the already well established British schools from this list?
How did you conclude the listed members were worthy and the unlisted members were not?
Have you "CV vetted" the members that you have nominated?
Who is on the membership joining committee?
How does being a member of your gang make a company/school safer or give the customer a better experience or service?
To the industry members listed, get a legal eagle on this immediately before this person damages your reputation.
This does appear to be an attempt to outcast a majority of survival schools' competition and a blatant attempt to make themselves look like something they are not.
To Survival School, Johnny Crooket And Andrew Lovejones, reflect on what you have done here, it must be :yikes: out of order.
Chris
I recently contacted the Survival school to express an interest in any freelance instructing work. It came as quite a surprise to be informed that my years of expedition and bushcraft experience counted for nothing without the paper qualifications endorsed and invented by them.
If that is the case, it's very interesting - it might even be illegal. If the only reason you were denied employment, was because you didn't belong to some private, masonic organisation, membership of which seems to be by some kind of judgement of Solomon, the arbitrary decision of the Grand Lodge, then you may have a legal case against the company.
Write, speak or email this person
Mr Carter
Trading Standards Service
County Hall
Topsham Road
Exeter
Devon
EX2 4QH
Tel 01392 382818
Fax 01392 382732
http://www.devon.gov.uk/index/business/trading_standards.htm
OK, lets look at this more seriously.
Firstly, as I'm considering the credibility of an organisation that apprears to be claiming some kind of professional authority, let me tell you what qualifies me to comment.
I'm a professional in the health care services. I trained and graduated from university, to obtain my qualifications, but that's just the academic part. In addition to the "letters", I also had to be approved by the registering body of my profession. That took 3 years of practice to gain my licence, during which I had to demonstrate competance accross a range of skills, to numerous peers already registered and licenced. Since gaining my lincece, I and all others in my profession, have to continually demonstrate competance, on penalty of having our licence suspended or revoked. We can also, of course, be struck off the register, for malpractice or a severe breach of the code of professional practice. This is rattified by parliament and written into law.
OK, so lets look at this regulating body.
Firstly, let me say, I think the bushcraft industry, could well do with some kind of regulation, at the very least, guidance for practice and I have nothing against attempts to bring this about in a professional and propper manner.
This pseudo-organisation appears to be the brainchild of either one man, or a group of perople. While maybe not a bad idea, it's execution here is severely flawed.
A couple of key points.
By what authority are these people placed in this position of judgement?
What is thier code of practice?
Application seems to be arbitrary.
Why is application is granted or refused by an anonymous person (webmaster@)?
Application appears to be granted or refused for arbitrary reasons by (webmaster@).
Where is the bricks and mortar headquarters?
What is the address of the organisation?
What is the telephone number of the organisation?
Who are the fellows/members of the board - what are thier names?
By what authority/qualification do these fellows sit in judgement?
What is the criteria for acceptance/refusal?
Have the overseas members been vetted? If so, how is that done (or more to the point, how is it proven)?
Oh, dear, the list goes on and on. So, what this organisation is asking, is that you submit yourself before Solomon for his judgement. However, therew are no guidelines, no rules, nothing written, no specific qualifications, either academic or experiential, no appeal. It would seem it's simply "you apply, tell me why you think you should be accepted and I'll decide if you're good enough".
Well, I'm sorry, that isn't good enough.
Any organisation like this needs to set out clearly what thier requirements for qualification are, then accept ALL applicants who meet those requirements and refuse ALL applicants who do not meet them.
There should at the very least be a bricks and mortar name and address to write to, or a contact name of a real person. Webmaster@ is absolutely inadequate...
Oh, I could go on and on with this but whats the point?
It's possibly a reasonable idea in concept at least, that has been ill thought through and poorly executed. It does more harm than good to the industry IMO. It's a joke. An attempt at some kind of masonic boys club, nothing more.
These are my thoughts alone and have nothing whatsoever to do with BcUK.
If the owner of that site thinks my comments are unfair, I'd be more than happy to discuss it with him/her in person - that is if he/she is a real person.
Martyn, speaking personally (and as myself, not as anything to do with bushcraftUK), the world is full of hokey qualifications and memberships that offer a lot more than they deliver. Take a look at the IT industry - it's literally jam-packed with memberships and qualifications that mean nothing. Add to that the fact that there are people freeloading off the back of legitimate qualifications (there are at least three IEEE organizations that I am aware of, only one the real IEEE). Tread carefully, ask questions, be wary!
The thing about the web is that is easy to bolster portfolios and credibility by names dropping (you'd be surprised how many people I've come across that claim to have designed McD's website of some other high profile site when I know, 100%, that it's nonsense).
I do agree, the whole "webmaster@ ..." is odd. The absence of rules of conduct and criteria is odd. The absence of a listing of how membership is decided is very odd and disturbing. Finding out that there are individuals and companies on the list that didn't know that they are there is very disturbing and borders on being fraudulent. I don't work in the outdoor industry and so this is irrelevant to me, but to if I were in the outdoor leisure/bushcraft/survival industry, I'd be worried. Worried about what this means. Worried about where this is going and worried about what comes next.
This was in reply to the post from Chris, but after being distracted a few other posts have been made.
Chris, (and anyone else) I appreciate the feelings that this seems to have evoked in people, especially those that love bushcraft and have dealt quite happily with many buschraft/survival companies over the years, thus holding them and the industry as a whole in high regard. I would say however that the questions you’ve posted should have been directed to The survival school directly, to a point, it is a bit unfair to expect them to justify themselves to the public when I am sure they are working hard to justify themselves to the numerous schools that didn’t know or were not included in their new association. I would suggest that you and anyone else that has these sorts of questions ask them directly of the survival school rather than post them on bcuk, this way you will be getting it from the horses’ mouth so to speak.
You are much more likely to receive satisfactory answers approaching it this way as they have stated previously that they want nothing to do with bushcraftUK or it’s members. I think that this is a much fairer way to approach the issues raised and it will prevent the posts on here from seeming hostile.
All the best and take it easy :wink:
Tony
How was I ever to Know that they have stated they did not want anything to do with BCUK or it's readers or members, they are mentioned and featured on this site many times, including posts by their instructors. This I feel is a consumer issue more than anything else, this being mainly in my view a consumer orientated site I feel the consumer deserves answers, on that note this is your website so maybe your right, I will contact them - AGAIN, with my Questions and I will continue to hold my breath for some answers, so long.
Chris
"The truth is out there"
Hi Chris, I appreciate that you did not know some of the history between the survival school and how they feel about bcuk. I didn’t mean to imply that I don’t want members here to mention them, by all means they are mentionable. I was thinking the other way around, that they would not reply on here because they want nothing to do with bcuk or it’s members, so, there is a lot more chance of receiving an answer to the questions asked if they were directed to them rather than, or as well as being posted on here.
One tries not to taint the thoughts of the members and the greater public (we have about 70,000 visits a month) by telling of the politics that prevail concerning bcuk and it’s unpopularity among certain elements. It doesn’t need to be aired and we try not to. I referred to it this time because I thought it was helpful for those like yourself that wanted to get some answers that might end up satisfying the questions.
I hope this makes more sense now
All the best
Tony.
I heard mutterings about this site being unpopular with certain groups within the industry. I can accept that you do not want to bring arguments into the public forum. However i do feel that BCUK is open to all and is an excellent resource for all within the industry. If i feel concerned about an opinion aired on here i have the right and am able to offer a counter argument.
It concerns me that groups within the industry feel so strongly against a public forum. It will certainly influence my purchasing decisions in the future. Do I want to give my hard earned cash to people that feel threatened by the public freely communicating ideas and experiences?
Perhaps You could explain the circumstances at the BCUK meet up.
. It came as quite a surprise to be informed that my years of expedition and bushcraft experience counted for nothing without the paper qualifications endorsed and invented by them.
Hmmm and where Pray tell did survival school get THEIR accreditations?? Might ring em up and enquire about a course then say "What are your credentials?.... You mean you have No cetification from the Mad Dave school of Bushcraft?? I'm sorry, without a Mad Dave accreditation your qualifications aren't worth the paper they're written on !!" :super:
Where can I apply for accreditation from the Mad Dave school of Bushcraft? Now THAT sounds like a promising organisation! :thumbs_up
:wink:
they want nothing to do with bcuk or it’s members
Can we assume then that The Survival School will decline orders for their products and services placed by BCUK members?
Thought not :?:
Where can I apply for accreditation from the Mad Dave school of Bushcraft? Now THAT sounds like a promising organisation! :thumbs_up
:wink:
I'll second that! You should run a course Dave - I'm sure there'll be lots of takers!
:o): ( It'll look great on the cv! :wink: )
Hmmm, thoughts of let the buyer beware.
My first impression of this was a similarity to the "Guild of Master Craftsmen". No offence intended to that respectable company but despite what one might assume from it's name, it is essentially a marketing organisation for any businesses who are prepared to pay the membership fee. As such, I dismissed Survival School's new initiative as dubious marketing in poor taste. I am both disappointed to hear that they have apparently been lying about their relationship with other companies, and relieved that my doubts about the values and good judgement of companies that I respected can be put aside.
Still, there have always been plenty of snake oil salesmen out there. An industry association only gains validity through the reputations of it's members. If I were playing fast and loose with other peoples names and it got out, I'd start to get worried about civil actions for defamation and libel.
These views are purely my own but trading standards are definately the way to go if customers are being misled and sold to under false pretences.
ChrisKavanaugh
09-08-2004, 21:08
I emailed Doug Ritter about this in case www.equipped.org was honoured with membership. Doug had received an email a week previous from them inviting membership, links etc. Thanks, but no thanks. :?:
Hey, no fair what about bcuk's invite......must be lost in the post :rolmao: I'll have to have a word with Doug and find out his secret for popularity :biggthump
Brynglas
10-08-2004, 00:51
It certainly is a great shame that this has blown up in this fashion. I can see no real benefit to Survival School in the long run, surely they would realise that people, their customers, aren't stupid and that Survival School can only lose credibility from such an ill advised and naive action.
I have no connection with them, or BCUK so I have no axe to grind here.
I think that a certain degree of regulation within the instructing industry can only do good to the paying punter.
Having been involved in taking people into the outdoors for a number of years, and as a Police Officer having seen some of the horrendously dangerous and vulnerable positions that people have been placed in by 'leaders', some of which, unfortunately have led to the loss of life I know that I set a lot of store against the qualifications endorsed by such organisations as the British Canoe Union and the Mountain Leader Training Board, the expanding industry which includes 'bushcraft' or 'survival' training demands little in the way of formal accreditation, as such there's nothing to stop an individual with little or no real experience from setting themselves up in business and potentially putting customers in harms way. (Please note, I am in no way implying that any of those companies mentioned in this post are behaving in this manner).
If such a regulatory body is to be succesful it needs to be wholly representattive of the best that the industry has to offer, and needs to be totally inclusive of all aspects of the field, placing an emphasis upon the needs of the paying public and protecting them from less scrupulous elements.
To conclude, I wasn't aware that there was some ill feeling within some sections of the field towards BCUK. I think that this is a real shame as I consider this site to be a particularly good resource to people with an interest in wilderness and woodcraft skills, as well as being an excellent advertising medium for those in the business. I also feel that this forum is an excellent representative of the views of the people that keep the whole industry afloat, the paying customer. As such, in the absence of a formal regulatory body, this forum plays a valuable role in policing the providers of services in the bushcraft/wilderness skills training field. Word of mouth is a powerful tool, which should not be underestimated and the reputaions of the companies providing instruction in this field rests on the views of their customers. :soapbox:
I'll second that! You should run a course Dave - I'm sure there'll be lots of takers!
:o): ( It'll look great on the cv! :wink: )
Heheheh
Watch this space !! :o):
Ok....heres one that will probably get me in to trouble.
I dont have a problem with codes of practice, associations etc, I think that when they are set up properly and policed, they can improve things.
I work in the asphalt industry. I have seen many people that eminate from the sort of camp sites you would not like to visit, registered to guilds, societies and associations.
Such bodies can have no value. After you pay your fee, you can use the name. Dont mean you are getting anything special. I seem to remember an installment of "Rogue Trader" where they got membership to some crafts guild for a load of primary school kids (and I think their class rabbitt).
Does that mean I cant teach field archery etc properly anymore? Did I not send off my fiver for a lifetimes "no questions asked" membership of some club?
Long live the forums like this. Keep the comments legal, but let people know about your experiences. If several people feel that they had an experience that was a bit pants, then maybe there was something in it.
And another thing - One day, there will be Bushcraft companies that will start complaining about us lot sharing knowledge for free.
I'll get off the :soapbox: now
That occured to me too!
Was it not infact the instigators of the old boys club in question?
One day?
Sorry. Did I go off on one?
SquirrelBoy
10-08-2004, 19:53
Such bodies can have no value. After you pay your fee, you can use the name. Dont mean you are getting anything special. I seem to remember an installment of "Rogue Trader" where they got membership to some crafts guild for a load of primary school kids (and I think their class rabbitt).
I saw that program too and a lot of the compaines still traded even when their `membership` was removed.
There were quite a few logos/organisations and guilds that ment nothing but who slaps their wrists and stops them ?
I think the best way to tell a good company is to get a recommendation from friends etc.
People who can vouch for the quality, that is what is so good about this forum - we get to exhange our views and experiences and from this make your own mind up :super:
ISWBA is definitely a shifting organisation, I wonder what’s going on behind the scenes. There’s a lot of American and Canadian schools added to the list (do they know?) and I note that the UK based Woodsmoke has been dropped from it. Interesting………
Anyone received a reply to their enquiries yet?
The last time I looked the page listed schools that had been nominated for membership. That's a clever move; It doesn't imply any affiliation, just that someone has put the organisation forward, and it doesn't state who actually did the nominating.
The last time I looked the page listed schools that had been nominated for membership. That's a clever move; It doesn't imply any affiliation, just that someone has put the organisation forward, and it doesn't state who actually did the nominating.
Hmm, I've just set up a school. I know I'll nominate myself! Look I'm on the register! Give me money! I'm affiliated!
Call me cynical but...
I think the best way to tell a good company is to get a recommendation from friends etc.
I agree. Having someone who has had expirence with the company (in any field, not just bushcraft) would put my mind at ease alot more than some certification from a governing body.....
Ed
:?:Now Woodcraft are off the list as well??? :roll:
Now Boulder Outdoor Survival School in the USA is off the list. :roll:
What's the word on the association Maddave ... I really feel the need to have more letters after my name!!!! :o): :rolmao:
What's the word on the association Maddave ... I really feel the need to have more letters after my name!!!! :o): :rolmao:
I can visualize it now
"Adi007 MDSOB"
:o):
Hmmmm... maybe need to work on the acronym there Mad Dave! Better than ISWBA after your name anyway!
Has anyone else noticed that only one of the schools listed (the Survival School) use the logo on their website? Also, can we expect to see Mors Kochanski putting "MISWBA" after his name from now on.
Also, oddly absent, is the UKs most famous bushcraft personality ...
Seriously though has anybody contacted the Survival school to give them a chance to reply. It does seem bad to claim an association that does not exist. i would be interested to hear what they have got to say on the matter. Its easy to have a trial by media.
I've mailed the info@iswba.com address with some questions, hopefully they will explain a few things and it will all be sorted. It might all just be a big misunderstanding... :?:
Woodlore has gone now, so three big British 'bushcraft' schools - Woodcraft, Woodlore and Woodsmoke have dropped any support for the association...
ALSS (USA) has also been removed from the list.
To be fair, there's been a school added to the list in the last couple of days - Woodland Survival Crafts (UK)
Out of the original schools that were on the list only Bison Bushcraft and Survival School remain. When we first saw the list of schools it was supposed that they were the founding members of the new association, it would seem not, maybe it was the schools that remain from that original list that were the founding members....there again maybe they will drop off the list and then it will have been started by...??? :?:
I mentioned before that I had asked some questions, this is what has transpired so far:
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony [mailto:tony@bushcraftuk.co.uk]
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 9:20 PM
To: info@iswba.com
Subject: Questions
Hi,
As you are probably aware I am the administrator for the website bushcraftUK. I have received numerous requests for information from members of the site and the general public about your association. I would appreciate it if you could address some of the questions that have been asked of me, so that I may lay the matter to rest with my membership and the general public that frequent the bushcraftUK website.
- Who are the founding members of the association? As described in paragraph of your Constitution.
- How were the Members picked for membership?
- Do organisations have to accept membership or do you add them as members if they are nominated.
- Is membership automatic if there have been nominations by other members of the association, or are there any other criteria that has to be met – other than that stated on your website?
- Why have UK and US schools been dropped from the list of members?
- You mention at the bottom of the Home page that - “All members should have a reciprocal link from this website to their own. If no link exists, they may not be members” - is this the case even if they are listed on your website as members but do not have the reciprocal link?
- How is the association financed?
- Where can I find information on the registration of the Association?
- Is the association owned by the Survival School?
- Did the fellows listed on your website apply for status?
- What is the address and phone number of the organisation?
I have also heard from numerous schools that did not know about the association and yet have been included in the list. If you could explain the procedure to me that allows them to be members when they’ve not applied I would appreciate it, then I will be able to answer some of the questions that they often ask of me.
I really would appreciate an answer as soon as possible as I’m inundated with questions that I really have no answer to.
Many thanks
Tony Bristow
In reply I received this:
Hi Tony,
Fair questions.
Firstly, all I am doing is administration. I sent you an email last week stating what was going on. I failed to get a reply.
Essentially, the association is non-regulating, non-exclusive and as it states on the website, purely there to foster links internationally and nationally. I have had some excellent responses as well as some sceptical response. This is only to be expected. I have read some of the comments on your website with interest.
I was approached to purchase and run the website, I am not the initiator of the ISWBA. It is merely the ISIA with a change of title to encompass the Wilderness Bushcraft aspect, instead of it just being for Survival Instructors. The association is free for all members. The association is NOT owned by Survival School, only the URL. Someone has to own it.
I have been given names to put on the site. I am just a part of the set up, I can put your questions to the others involved and they will be able to provide more answers. This was launched at the International Survival Symposium. I guess you weren't invited to that one either? Don't worry, not everybody can be invited to everything.
ISWBA
My reply to this was
Another quick one; who are you?
I also need to ask some other questions that have been forwarded to me so I need to send off another email. Feel free to post questions in this thread as I'll ask the person :?: that replied to me if they will spare some time to answer some questions on the forum, or even in the chat room.
I'll keep you all posted.
bushbasher
18-08-2004, 09:56
Sounds like some buck passing going on to me. I dont think we will be hearing too much more from this particular "organisation" in future. Beaurocrats have no place in the woods. :wave:
Can anyone point me in the right direction for the International Survival Symposium? I've looked on the web a bit but not found anything.
Cheers
T
AntarcticFire
18-08-2004, 10:05
International Survival Symposium? (http://www.iss04.co.uk/)
There doesn't seem to be a huge amount of information on there, and from
first glance it seems to be military-orientated.
theknight
18-08-2004, 10:06
Been a very interesting thread to follow. And by the amount of the hits it has had, it is a thread close to many peoples hearts. It looks like a bit of a PR disaster, like all PR are campaigns, they start of well and with good intent. What people often over look is that old fashioned thing, called, the truth.
It is never wise to be dishonest as you will soon be caught out and discredited. I don't know if that is the case with the people involved but by the lack of feedback/contact from them, this may be the case and it doesn't help when one by one, the schools dwindle. There where some big names on the list which has enabled the site to bumble along for as long as it has. They have gone and credibility, went with them.
It doesn't look good for anyone concerned with this association. We all make mistakes and we can all suffer from naivety from time to time but as a potential customer, I would want to have a serious explanation from the Survival School, Jonny Crocket and Andrew Love Jones.
But I believe that they will be attending the Wilderness Gathering. We can ask them there what on earth is going on, perhaps the would have the courtesy to explain.
theknight
18-08-2004, 10:47
And another thing. I enquired about buying a Wetterlings axe from them so time back as it seemed a better option the having to pay extra for the GB name. I had an email from them saying that they no longer supplying them as they were inferior and they themselves, wouldn't put their name next to the brand and they were getting loads of complaints about them.....................they are now stocking them again!! :?:
I did get the Wetterlings that I wanted, I bought it from another company.
Tony
Did a named person sign the reply off or was that just it? :?:
I think someone somewhere is getting buried in the big hole their digging recently - I still stand by my original judgement on this.
Meglomania = a craving for or mental delusions of power.
Chris MISWBA ( I have recently jioned that womens bowling association in the States)
ps. Maddave can I apply for yours now - I'm on a roll :o):
Tony
Did a named person sign the reply off or was that just it? :?:
It was exactly as you see it, signed off with the initials of the association :?:
In reply I received this:
Hi Tony,
Fair questions.
...[snipped for brevity]... This was launched at the International Survival Symposium. I guess you weren't invited to that one either? Don't worry, not everybody can be invited to everything.
ISWBA
That last sentancer from them/him Tony, is an increadibly cheap, unprofessional and tacky response to a genuine enquiry.
So, the administrative contact for this organisation resorts to cheap shots and jibes - is it run by children?
Aside from avoiding all your questions, all he seems to have said is "it isn't me, I'm not responsible m'lud".
...this guy doesnt even have the balls to sign it with his real name, just ISWBA. Then he goes on to say he's just the domain owner - that's a matter of public record (look here http://www.whois.sc/iswba.com ). Is he saying that he doesnt process the applications? If he doesnt, who does?
Pah! Cowboy outfit!
Tantalus
18-08-2004, 17:02
This was launched at the International Survival Symposium. I guess you weren't invited to that one either?curious to know who was invited lol, and even more curious to find out who was there
funny they didnt mention that?
I am not the initiator of the ISWBA. It is merely the ISIA with a change of title to encompass the Wilderness Bushcraft aspect, instead of it just being for Survival Instructors
I have been given names to put on the site. I am just a part of the set up, I can put your questions to the others involved and they will be able to provide more answers. in other words "dont ask me i only work here"
then they have the gall to sign it
ISWBA
if it wasnt so pathetic it would be quite funny
Tant
I think certain people have shot themselves in the foot - bigtime !
Anyone heard the phrase "when you're in a hole - first, stop digging"
-l I guess you weren't invited to that one either? Don't worry, not everybody can be invited to everything.
A cheap dub, how professional……
Ah you got to see the funny side to this. It all comes out in the end,and all you done was dig for the truth.
:You_Rock_
Does anybody know what schools went to the International Survival Symposium?.
:naughty:
If you can remember back to a post on this thread about Survival School saying " we have HSE approval " on their homepage, well, now it say's " we have had a recent health and safety inspection " and their advice on the courses page used to say " make sure the company you use has HSE approval" , that now say's " has satisfactory health & safety provisions" :?:
Good advice, but why change it - Just the other wording about being members of a bogus association letting the unsuspecting customer think that some form of independant standards process is in operation to give them added reassurance that need's correcting now.
Not impressed :roll:
Chris
Hi Guys, the subject is the ISWBA, the survival school are probably behind the formation of that so discussion in that context is fine, let's try not to find fault in everything they do, even if it is very tempting.
I'm sure that any information about things to do with ISWBA would be useful. Who went to the International Survival Symposium, what was ISIA before it was changed to encompass the Wilderness Bushcraft aspect? I would have thought that if it was an organisation in existence before Jan that it would have had members, the buschraft aspect was an addition to the survival, so, where are the survival members that are long established in the association prior to Jan? The list only included a few organisations, of which just two are left.
:roll: apologies, lost it for a minute there, this thread has incensed me and just wanted to blow the steam out.
As for all your questions I haven't got the foggiest clue about any of it, although this symposium has a contact , maybe a phone call or email to see about their involvement tommorow might clear things up.
I have had a thought though - sceptical me.
The symposium site does have a trade sponsers list ie, manufacturers not training schools, maybe survival school is acting on their behalf, having your product endorsed by a "professional" trade body allways looks good for manufacturers, the old chestnut of :-
".......... as used by x - international survival and bushcraft expert....." or
"..........as endorsed by the international survival and wilderness bushcraft association......"
Just a thought :biggthump
Chris
Tantalus
18-08-2004, 23:25
sorry if my opinions seem a little harsh,
did not mean to cause offence , just saying something looks very fishy about the whole thing
the lack of forthcoming information and general question dodging in the reply does nothing to encourage my confidence
please remeber it is just my opinion
feel free to delete it if you think my post too strong
tho in my defence i must say, part of the attraction of buscraft, camping, and the great outdoors is that it is a last reserve in modern life where certificates qualifications and all the heirarchies just dont mean anything. Any attempt to force bushcrafting in this direction is IMHO misplaced.
Tant
Isn't the important thing the knowledge people/organisations impart to others, not the initials! So what if people need monikers behind their name. If people and organisations have useful things to say and don't dictate then whats to worry about?
Roving Rich
19-08-2004, 12:59
Thats quite true Doobs. Survival school had quite a good reputation for some skills. So why was it necessary to jeopardise it with what appears to be fictitious accreditation ?
Rich
Were these guys any good? I guess they plain got too greedy! Although it sadly reflects their contempt for their clients it is a very common mistake companys and organisations make.
It is often a lesson for us all, as my granpa used to say, 'you get greedy, you get gut rot!'
This is going off track again, the question is about the association :nono:
When it comes to the courses that the survival school run I have never heard complaints, their teaching etc should not be questioned. They seem to be survival orientated but do teach some bushcraft.
International Survival Symposium? (http://www.iss04.co.uk/)
There doesn't seem to be a huge amount of information on there, and from
first glance it seems to be military-orientated.
There are some interesting stories on the speakers section of the site.
This is going off track again, the question is about the association :nono:
When it comes to the courses that the survival school run I have never heard complaints, their teaching etc should not be questioned. They seem to be survival orientated but do teach some bushcraft.
I have done their weekend course. Definately bushcraft orientated rather than survival. Shelter building, fire by friction, knife sharpening, trapping and game preparation, etc. The weekend was well organised and all three instructors seemed to know their stuff. A good weekend.
I've also bought things from their website, fast efficient service.
Lets not confuse their courses or shop with this issue of the ISWBA
Jon.
This is what's great about the forum, real people can tell of their experiences...Thanks Jon. I've never done one of their courses, just spoken to quite a few people about them. Relating first hand experience is always the best :biggthump
Survivorbility
20-08-2004, 17:51
Fellow lovers of the great outdoors, a short history lesson if I may.............. In December 1995 at a gathering of like minded people (inc Ray Mears, Sean Mcbride, Mors Kochanski, Lars Falt and myself) in Sweden it was decided that an association should be formed to promote the art of survival. This indeed did happen with Lars Falt taking the chair for the first three years. The association was called the International Survival Instructors Association or ISIA. I took the presidency over upon Lars retiring in 1999. Sadly due to work load and little external interest I closed the association down in 2000. I retired from the Royal Navy last year as the Commander of the Royal Navy Survival School having taught climatic survival for over 25 years. I was also responsible for organising the worlds first international survival conference; Survival 95, Survival 98 and ISS04.
Whilst trawling the internet I came upon 'Survival School' run by a Mr Crockett who professed to be the uk's number '1 'survival school and that he taught the Royal Navy! This was news to me and therefore I contacted Jonny direct. Having obviously checked out my career history prior to returning my call, he mentioned that his intent and ambition was to form an association like the ISIA with the aim of introducing a 'safe and professional code of conduct' for the industry, thereby limiting the ammount of cowboys in the arena. I assisted Jonny by passing on to him the constitution I had written for the ISIA and proposed details for membership requirements. At no time have I invited anyone to join this association, linked anyone to this association, been involved with the web site of the association or offered to run the association. I have provided advice to Jonny based on my previous knowledge of this type of association and that is all!
I am very happy to assist or clarify any issue direct.
Survivorbility
20-08-2004, 18:02
Sorry, and finally ......... I genuinely believe that Jonny acted in what he thought was in the best interests of your community and that maybe in being overzealous he has accidentally alienated some of you. I really do hope this is not the case. I spent many long months achieving acreditation of survival training with the 'City and Guilds of London' and now can proudly issue a formal genuine and approved qualification in such.
To have a code of conduct that a community agrees to abide with is a very powerful and responsible practice and one which with a little care could be introduced successfully worldwide.
:pack:
Many thanks for the history lesson and clearing a few things up for this community :biggthump
I genuinely believe that Jonny acted in what he thought was in the best interests of your community
I agree, good intentions were there..... I just think it was handled quite badly. Adding the 3 big schools (wooldlore, woodsmoke and woodcraft) without their knowledge and using their names (as well as their reputations) on the site was a bad call on their part. They should have contacted said schools 'first' and given them the choice of becomming members..... maybe even involved them in the disscussions when the organisation was being formed. Then we wouldn't have these problems or distrust that is currently going about :-(
Unfortunatly this has now damaged their reputation which is a shame as survival school is a good school and mud always sticks....
Ed
I am assuming that you are Martyn Helliwell (please correct me if i have made a mistake) welcome to BCUK :wave: .
may i ask do you endorse the new association run by the survival school?
have you attended any of the survival schools courses?
Survivability I have contacted City and Guilds and they have searched their database and can, unfortunately, find no modules for survival courses or parts there of at all.
I have tried that number you gave me but as yet - no joy, which is a shame as I would have liked to have had this further accreditation.
Tantalus
24-08-2004, 11:19
sadly my searches of google for the society or the qualification you mention produced no results either suvivability
could you give me a little more info please?
cheers
Tant
Survivorbility
24-08-2004, 16:14
Stuart............
1. Yes, I am Martyn H.
2. Yes, as discussed, I believe the way forward in the industry is to form a recognised association with a viable infrastructure and code of conduct. This obviously requires careful planning and introduction, and I guess maybe the world is not quite ready for that to happen. Having seen my insurance premiums rise ten fold in 4 years scares the pants of me as a management consultant that uses the outdoors occasionally, and only then for theatre! Sadly, I think it is only a matter of time before a tragic accident happens (Lyme Bay for the outdoor pursuits arena!) and litigation occurs. When this happens the world will be looking at the bushcraft/survival industry for answers.......... maybe, just maybe, this could be headed off at the pass by declaring a professional interest ie association??? (open question).
3. No, I did not know of the Survival School until last year and I haven't attended any courses run by that school.
Survivorbility
24-08-2004, 16:17
Tant and Gary
I have contacted HMS SULTAN (the home of the RN Survival School) and found that they do not return from summer leave until after the bank holiday next week. I will obtain the C & G module number and sylabus information then and post it here for all to view.
Hope that assists
Martyn
Much obliged - look forward to it. :biggthump
Tantalus
24-08-2004, 19:22
Great, thanks Martyn
:smile2: Tant
New twist ... looks like the site is gone ... :?: :roll:
I tried to view it about 6pm this evening and no joy.
Survivorbility
25-08-2004, 10:52
Wayne/Addi
Just to update you on the web site of the association. Jonny Crocket called me on Monday morning post the fall out of last weeks events to discuss options for taking the association forward. As previously mentioned, I believe the world is not quite ready for this association and certainly a great deal more discussion needs to take place prior to running it out. To save further aggravation and bad press for the Survival School I suggested that Jonny pull the web site with immediate effect. This he did whilst still on the phone to me (clever stuff this web business!) ............ I think the plan is to let the dust settle for a while and then see if there is any interest in taking this thing forward. If nothing else it has stirred up a hornets nest, and at the very least has initiated thought and conversation on a potential minefield area in the industry!
Martyn
Roving Rich
25-08-2004, 13:14
Thanks Martyn, its great to get some feedback from someone involved. Just a shame others couldn't offer the same courtesy.
Rich
Hi Martyn.
Thanks for taking the time to update us on the assiocation. Hopefully you will continue contribute to the forum.
I don't think the idea of co operation beween leading schools is necessarily bad as long as people remember that big fish were once little fish. Even Ray or Mors once sweated over the bow drill like the rest of us.
what got my back up was the lack of consultation. some people may choose to distance themselves from this forum thats fine it's their choice. I also have choices and do not like it when i feel someone else is trying to make them for me. Even if well intentioned. i am due to attend a survival school course for the first time in 2 weeks. i am quite looking forward to it. i know some other members of this forum will be attending too. :-)
Hopefully the founder members will take stock of our views and approach the idea in a more democratic way next time.
acw_akkermans
26-08-2004, 01:11
I Have to say I read these 6 pages of posts with surprise. I must be too far away in Northern Ireland, Because all this passed me by completely.
All I can say about the issue is that yes, indeed most of the schools and instructors were interested in some sort of organisation when we spoke about this at the last wilderness gathering. For a few months, there were many E-mails flying back and forth with suggestions and how different people saw any organisation like that. It fell apart a little around christmas, because there was no unanimous concensus about what any organisation would be about. I agree with Martyn therefore that this country is not yet ready. I think we first need to learn how to share and grow together as an industry. At the moment this cannot be done because we are too protective of our courses and information. And why?
There are a lot of questions we need to ask ourselves. Why is it that when a student completes a basic course with me, he is not allowed to go to a more advanced course with some other schools? He has learned the skills, has he not?
Why is it, that people are afraid of sharing their teaching knowledge with other instructors?
Why is it that we are afraid of welcoming less experienced people into the industry? (Joel springs to mind as a bright young lad who has much more bushcraft knowledge then a lot of people I met)
Why is it that we don't want to help bad schools become good, but rather see them dissapear?
Why is it that you are only "allowed" to run a school if you have 20+ years experience? Don't we all have to start somewhere?
The organisation we tried to set up failed, because we could not agree on the answers. Some of us wanted an elite organisation, others quality control, and others again, a sharing one... Till everyone agrees what is most needed, and what can be achieved, and what is best for all concerned, then indeed, the world is not ready for an organisation yet.
I hope we are ready for it soon though, because I do agree some health and safety guidelines would be good before one person/school £%^& up and the whole industry will be in jeapordy.Perhaps an organisation would indeed also help lower insurance. (Also a victim of doubling premiums every year)
Sorry for my long ramble. It is also something that is close to my heart.
Anthonio
Well said indeed Antonio.
The biggest enemy to an organisation of this nature is, as pointed out, those within the industry - but I dont think it is a case of the industry not being ready, people are simply guarding there livelihoods to a greater or lesser extent.
What is needed (if anything) is a 'independent organisation' which is not linked to any school by act, deed and thought. Self regulation will never work for the reasons already pointed out however an independant body would be the only way to over come the mistrust and different ideals of the various peoples involved.
But then as we have seen with OFTEL and OFWATT and all the others, once they get involved things go down the pan - after all wasnt it a good idea to get rid of a free directory enquire service which worked perfectly well and bring out something you now have to pay for and that is frankly c**p!
So what is the answer?
Maybe we should learn to leave it alone if it aint broken!
Why is it that when a student completes a basic course with me, he is not allowed to go to a more advanced course with some other schools? He has learned the skills, has he not?
Why is it, that people are afraid of sharing their teaching knowledge with other instructors?
Why is it that we are afraid of welcoming less experienced people into the industry? (Joel springs to mind as a bright young lad who has much more bushcraft knowledge then a lot of people I met)
Why is it that we don't want to help bad schools become good, but rather see them dissapear?
Why is it that you are only "allowed" to run a school if you have 20+ years experience? Don't we all have to start somewhere?
Very well said. I think there are many instructors who do think this way. Many here on BCUK happily give their knowledge freely and have made me feel most welcome when I first joined and continue to do so. Help is always at hand and questions answered. Many schools who meetup on here now regularlary swap instructors or teach for each other their specialist topics, this is going along way to help build a better community, and community spirit is what makes bushcraft what it is
You have brought up some very thought provoking points.
Ed
Roving Rich
26-08-2004, 13:19
Thanks Antonio, your absolutely right. The bushcraft world is still fractionated, with every school guarding its own piece of the pie fiercly. IMO they do not want to be united or share the same space - yet. If they did they would be here communicating with their customers. This place is neutral territory where none hold sway, and contains nearly 1000 members. Thats 1000 people interested in bushcraft, practising, and learning more about it. Yet their egos and insecurities prevent them from talking openly to us, their customers. Courses and Schools are ESSENTIAL. Your a better man than me (and that takes some doing :wink: ) if you can learn fire by friction without ever seeing it done. And generally it takes a course to do that, and the hundred and one other specialist bushcraft skills that need demonstration. There will never be a substitute for hands on experience.
So come on in Schools and lets get united. The door is open, the fire is warm as will be your welcome -All of you.
Rich
Great Pebble
26-08-2004, 15:22
I think it illustrates rather well the "double edged sword" that is organisation.
The beauty of BCUK is that to all intents and purposes, everyone is equal, there's no "leaders" no "committee" - Everyone pitches in with what they can contribute and walks away with what they need to know. There are "rules" and they are generally kept by conscent, and the mods do an efficient and friendly job of warning when things are straying... Thankfully they seldom have to do any more than warn.
Formalising things, while it certainly brings advantages, can lead to many. many problems as well. Things that seem so petty they're not worth worrying about become major issues when they're written down.
Bushcrafters are by nature independent people, ask for a view on A.N Other subject and from the 1000 folks here you could, potentially get a 1000 different answers, or just 2, with 500 espousing each.
Not a problem when we can all just agree to differ, but it does cause ructions within any formalised group.
Which can be particularly damaging to any pursuit if that group claims to represent an "official" view.
There also exists the possibility of commercial manipulation, "approved" knives or "accredited" training may be advantageous in presenting a responsible image to other bodies but if the sole supplier of said blades or training happens to be the incumbent chair of the organisation........
Just food for thought.
I think it illustrates rather well the "double edged sword" that is organisation.<SNIP>
<SNIP>There also exists the possibility of commercial manipulation, "approved" knives or "accredited" training may be advantageous in presenting a responsible image to other bodies but if the sole supplier of said blades or training happens to be the incumbent chair of the organisation........
Therein again lies the double edge...
The guys who run the schools/shops 'know' what the industry wants from what they sell/what courses are popular, but that may not represent the wants of the community in general.
An Example: A re-enactment society with member groups spread out around the country, books up a load of 'living history' type courses, so 'the industry' promotes these over other, more useful to the 'modern' bushcrafter, and things get pushed towards that trend, so 'the industry' has a lopsided view of what 'the community' actually wants...
This brings us either to having an outside adjudicator (and as Gary points out, they do such a fantastic job at not policing the industry properly, as they probably don't understand it or just try to tye it up in red tape), or you need to have a 'committee' that encompasses both 'professionals' and 'users'. And as we have members of this forum alone spanning a number of time zones and countries, which have different laws, plus all the local bye-laws, and yet again we have a monster with several heads and a whole big can of Lumbricus terrestris!
Site gone! association gone!
What was the reason again?
Nothing to do with Exeter trading standards warning them to remove it or they would take enforcement action against them to do so then.
The truth
This little trip breached several trading and advertisement regulations here in the UK and the fair trading standards office in Exeter got plenty of enquiries and complaints about it and they promptly dealt with it, good on them.
Chris
Site gone! association gone!
What was the reason again?
Nothing to do with Exeter trading standards warning them to remove it or they would take enforcement action against them to do so then.
The truth
This little trip breached several trading and advertisement regulations here in the UK and the fair trading standards office in Exeter got plenty of enquiries and complaints about it and they promptly dealt with it, good on them.
Chris
It has been confirmed that some of the schools were talking about setting up an organization at the last wilderness gathering and that it fell apart, now it seems that survival school contacted Martyn Helliwell for advice on setting up a similar association to provide a professional code of conduct for the industry to provide schools' accreditation for the potential student's peace of mind that they are a safe and professional company.
I do think that they had the best intentions for bushcrafters but due to lack of PR and organisation it has caused bad press for survival school. Perhaps if they had went about it more formerly and democratically to elect the committee who could then do the various courses, review them and then decide who to offer membership too. Such a thing we may not be ready for, the bigger schools taking precedent over the smaller, the well known instructors over the less known. It just wouldn't be fair for someone involved in the industry to form such an organization. Like it has already been pointed out you would surely need an independent organisation :?: These are my opinions.
After the fiasco of the Survival schools attempts to establish an association or self promote themselves or whatever, somebody from your Navy came onto the thread and mentioned a City and Guilds of London course or qualification.
Did anything come of it? I read that someone tried them and they had no knowledge of a course or modules to make up a course but that was the last I heard of it.
The reason I ask this is part of my secondment from Canada is conditional with me achieving further education in specialist fields and I am thinking a corporate lawyer who knows the survival industry would be a good specialization, hence I need to achieve an accredited qualification such as City and Guilds.
Can anybody enlighten me further?
:?: their silence is thunderous!
He was at the Gathering and from what I can make out Martyn was quite up front with people there. He seems to be distancing himself from the organisers of the association which is understandable given that they say he was the one pushing it; that he was the person in charge and they were just helping him out. Which is totally contrary to what Martyn has openly stated on here. :yikes: :naughty:
He seems much more approachable and responsive than anyone else involved in all this association fiasco, maybe a little reminder would be in order and he can get back to you all on the C&G situation :biggthump
Survivorbility
14-09-2004, 13:47
Fantastic ........... you pop out of the room for one minute and all the world is suspicious of your intentions!
Firstly, On the statement made by Chris on Trading Standards: There is absolutely no truth in this whatsoever. Jonny Crocket contacted the trading standards department as a sort of belt and braces job to enquire if an association needed to be registered anywhere and to ask for advice about what could and should be done. (this line has been removed by moderators * - see below)
Secondly, I have obtained the City and Guilds module number for all those wishing to chase a formal qualification in survival: 5413-01 Air 427. This is the course I had certificated for military personnel, if schools wish to move this into the civilian world then you need to talk to the C & G and ask how to do this.
And finally ...........it was great to meet so many of you at the gathering last week. Please remember that we all see the same things but have different filters on our glasses, and therefore, what appears a good idea to one may seem crass to another!!
* this line named an individual from trading standards and stated that he "looked over it and gave it the thumbs up", the named individual has requested that their name be removed from this post and claims that the statement made about him is incorrect.
moderated by: stuart Date: 15/9/05
once again Survivorbility thanks for keeping us informed
Chris if you do not have tangible evidence to back up a statement please refrain form presenting it as fact untill you can provide proof
Thanks for keeping us in the loop :biggthump
Excellent cheers Survivabilty - TOP MAN - I'll give C&G a ring, now I have a module to chase that might help them! :biggthump
Survivorbility
15-09-2004, 16:51
Ladies and Gentlemen
Further to my reply at 129 .............upon investigation by Stuart our efficient moderator, it would appear that the information I repeated in my reply was not exactly as it would first appear! I printed in good faith the full reply to an email I had sent to JC seeking clarification of issues raised by Chris. It now transpires that the person I named as having given JC the green light wishes to be distanced from this issue!! You can read into this as much as you wish to!
Chris and anyone else who I may have questioned on their intent please accept my sincere apologies.
Regards
Martyn H
:banghead:
Just when you thought this business couldn't get anymore convoluted!
I hear ya Lurch :roll:
Martyn, you really seem to be caught up in the middle of something not of your making, I hope that the experience is not to horrendous.
I’ve had a few conversations with numerous people about this issue and it seems to me that the buck is being passed at a rapid rate. I had thought that the issues with the association etc had been laid to rest, or, maybe I just hoped they had. Anyway, the saga continues.
For the rest of the readers:
As far as I’m aware Martyn posted the name of the person at the trading standards office on the forum in the context given because that was how it was given to him by Mr Cockett, thus he thought the information contained in it was reliable, which is an understandable assumption. However, now it would seem that the information passed on to Martyn was inaccurate. It would seem (I could be wrong) that Mr Crockett made a mistake about what was said to him by the person from trading standards, and in passing this information on to Martyn, who then passed it on to those of the public interested in the subject; it has managed to mislead many people.
A request was made for the post (129) to be removed in its entirety, the reasons stated were that the name of the Trading standards officer was quoted and the information in the post was inaccurate. Rather than remove the post it was edited. The trading standards officer was notified by Mr Crockett that his name had been placed on the forum, after being thus notified he requested (indirectly) it was removed. Thus bcuk was contacted by Mr Crockett saying that he had been contacted by the trading standards officer, asking for his name to be removed from the post, and that the information he was quoted as supplying about the association was incorrect.
All this seems a bit weird to me as the information supplied to us, was from the ‘horses mouth’ so to speak, yet the same horse that supplied Martyn with answers to questions intended for public consumption, contacted trading standards and pointed out the inaccurate information supplied in its own answers to questions posed on the forum. I’m interested in how this should be interpreted? Any suggestions welcome.
I have to say that the trading standards are there to offer advice and would not have closed the association down themselves. I am of the opinion that they are not really involved in this at all and I am also of the opinion that Martyn has constantly acted in good faith, that he has been a fine example of honesty and he has gone out of his way to keep the public informed to the best of his ability. I applaud him for his efforts, especially considering the information he’s been working with.
If I have made any mistakes in this post I would appreciate the party concerned contacting me, or posting on the forum what it is I have mistaken or quoted inaccurately. I will rectify my post accordingly.
As it stands these are the happenings of the saga today. I’ve posted this because I don’t like bcuk being set up by people supplying inaccurate information, who then stir trouble based on the information that they provided. Unethical actions such as this are deplorable.
Tantalus
15-09-2004, 19:06
where can i find info on the City and Guilds course please?
i tried putting 5413-01 Air 427 into the search feature
http://www.city-and-guilds.co.uk/pls/cg2/pkg_cg_qualfind.prc_main
and ended up with ......Unfortunately we didn't find any matches to your search criteria.
Please try again. (http://www.city-and-guilds.co.uk/pls/cg2/pkg_cg_qualfind.prc_main)
:?: Tant
Tant, I've contacted City and Guilds and they are looking into it as they still seem unable to find anything when they search their own data base - read into that what you will - but as soon as I know anything I will let everyone know.
Hopefully the lady I spoke to will drop me an email soon and we can at least put the C&G saga to bed.
I'm sure that it will sort itself out :biggthump
Paganwolf
15-09-2004, 21:40
try putting 54/62/13/67/44/88 in its my usual from my local chinese takeaway you may have more luck :shock: :wink:
Tantalus
15-09-2004, 22:12
try putting 54/62/13/67/44/88 in
yup that comes up with a lovely course in advanced flower arranging
is that the one you are doing? :shock:
jus teasing
:o): Tant
Martyn
Thankyou for your apology, it shows extreme integrity.
As the gauntlet was put to me to provide tangible evidence the other day, I did so by supplying this privately to Stuart and as you know also to yourself.
He then went on the fact proving mission arriving at what we have now.
Tony
The trading standards were already on the case before JC contacted them.
This I can prove, and I now believe Stuart has come to these findings also.
If your industry requires regulation, then there are amicable ways to do it that would benefit both provider and customer, I have to work to national standards and guidelines as an ML so I have some experience of this.
City and Giulds course that you require is:
The school of air and maritime engineering
Tel 023 92 54 3117
It is currently a military orientated module at present, as Martyn has said.
Chris :wave:
Tantalus
15-09-2004, 22:18
City and Giulds course that you require is:
The school of air and maritime engineering
Tel 023 92 54 3117
It is currently a military orientated module at present, as Martyn has said
:confused:
Tant
Tony
The trading standards were already on the case before JC contacted them.
This I can prove, and I now believe Stuart has come to these findings also.
Chris :wave:
Hi Chris, yeah, I’ve heard the same. I was referring specifically to the fact that information was posted on here and then that same info was used by the person that provided it, to seemingly wind trading standards up. It seems like a bit of a set up to me?
I dealt a lot with trading standards in a past life (I was in advertising for 7 years), and a couple of points...
If I make a complaint to TS about a company and can provide some grounds for the complaint, TS will likely investigate. I can then quite legitimately say "company XXX is under investigation by TS", but that is a world away from there actually being a problem with company XXX. Be careful not to draw inaccurate implications from these kinds of statements. Untill and unless a complaint is upheld, there is no issue with TS involvement. They are just doing what they do, invesyigating a complaint. Please bear in mind, many companies get complaints made against them for all sorts of reasons, some genuine grievancies, some not so genuine.
Given the above, I can quite reasonably understand why the TS officer wanted to distance his/herself from this debate. Again, there is not, nor should there be any implications of wrongdoing from that information alone. Any professional TS officer would immediately ask the same, regardless of circumstances.
I would forget all about TS, as thier involvement is utterly meaningless unless a complaint is upheld.
The trading standards officer was notified by Mr Crockett that his name had been placed on the forum, after being thus notified he requested (indirectly) it was removed.
...that's very peculiar indeed. If said officer had a problem with some content in this thread, the normal course of action would be to come direct to the site owner as verified by a domain "whois". Very unusual to make such requests through a third party.
Again, I would ignore any mention of TS involvement in this. No implications can be drawn from it and it has no substance whatsoever.
...that's very peculiar indeed. If said officer had a problem with some content in this thread, the normal course of action would be to come direct to the site owner as verified by a domain "whois". Very unusual to make such requests through a third party.
Indeed, either the officer wasn't dealing with it, in which case he'd get in touch with the site owner if he was so inclined, or he was, in which case the post was stating the truth and given that TS officers and public servants they would have no reason to feel one way or another about the matter.
Very strange ...
Site gone! association gone!
What was the reason again?
Nothing to do with Exeter trading standards warning them to remove it or they would take enforcement action against them to do so then.
The truth
This little trip breached several trading and advertisement regulations here in the UK and the fair trading standards office in Exeter got plenty of enquiries and complaints about it and they promptly dealt with it, good on them.
Chris
Can you prove this? Where did you get this information?
This issue has been examined from pretty much all angles and all directions ... except one, so I'm going to come out straight and ask. Chris, what's your interest/involvment in all this?
Paganwolf
16-09-2004, 11:03
Flower arranging is very soothing Tant, im allowed to do it when my anger management therapist and my psychiatrist take my strait jacket off, must rest now as my nose is getting sore from all this typing :oT: :boot: :smashfrea :rolmao:
Matryn
The proof was given to your bcuk moderator colleague Stuart several days ago, so confer with him if you will please. As this also mentioned individuals names it was done privately.
Adioo7
My interest in this was firstly as a member of the paying public who has been attending survival and bushcraft courses for nearly 30 years, including in the military and the school in question. I saw what I believed to be an attempt to pervert the publics chioce by what I also believed to be a pseudo standards body - as I have said, I have to work to national standards myself in the outdoor industry and what I loved about attending independant survival and Bushcraft courses was the absence of red tape and rules that allowed the courses to be individual and enjoyable.
Secondly, my latest intrest was my creditability was in question, so the challenge was set. Stuart and Martyns H's comments were red rags.
As far as I'm concerned Martyn H has displayed excellant professionalism through this affair and as you say,there are no more angles to take, I believe the bottom has been found. I also believe Martin H deserves an apology by some of the more offensive remarks on here.
Thanks
Chris
Matryn
The proof was given to your bcuk moderator colleague Stuart several days ago, so confer with him if you will please. As this also mentioned individuals names it was done privately.
Chris, you made a strong public statement, if you cant or wont back it up with public proof, you should refrain from making such "statements of fact" in public.
Trading standards dont "warn them to remove it or they would take enforcement action against them to do so" it's not what they're about. I doubt they have the authority to act in such a way, and definitely dont have the inclination. They advise people of the standards that have been set. If people persistently ignore thier advice, then there are steps that can be taken, but they dont simply "shut something down". Thier brief is to advise people of the standards they must meet, so they can successfully develop thier business in a legal way. It may be that after recieveing advice from TS, Mr Crocket decided that the whole thing was more trouble than it was worth and decided himself to take it offline, but that is very different from being told or ordered to do it - which I'm certain didn't happen. Seven years working with TS gives me the knowledge that they simply dont operate like that.
Errr, are we actually gaining anything from this thread? :banghead:
I've made up my mind about the various participants on this thread, I'm sure most of you have too
The truth isn't out there... and even if it were, there's far more interesting things to be looking for (like thorns to stand on :o):)
Maryn
I can see your frustration about this and that you are not convinced with recent alterations made by your own moderators.
It is simple.
I made a formal complaint to TS around the sameday I posted this thread, an individual other than the one that was mentioned and recently deleted was dealing with it. A conclusion was met, and the thumbs were not up. In the meantime a damage limitation exercise was initiated by someone from the school or association contacting TS, after what I can only assume by being tipped off by my original posting off this thread - silly me.
Martyn, think back on the facts, in your mind was a company setting up a trade standards association, advertising they are proud members and that membership reassures the public of a greater standard of safety etc, than if they went to non- members, making a membership list up of people who do not know they were members - in your advertising business experience does this not breach several trading and advertisement regulations?
The thing is it's been sorted and when the time comes for your industry to set something up then this may well be used as an example of how not to do it.
Chris :wave:
Chris, I'm wholly against the concept of this pseudo organisation and have said so many times in this thread. I'm delighted it's gone. But in fairness, it isnt appropriate to allude to any kind of Trading Standards involvement. Even as the complainant, you wont be privvy to the conversations between TS and Mr Crocket - it would be unprofessional for TS to divulge the contents of such converstations to you or anyone else. I would advise that you refrain from making public statements like
"...Nothing to do with Exeter trading standards warning them to remove it or they would take enforcement action against them to do so then."
...if you are unable or unwilling to provide concrete public evidence that this is in fact the case. As you have found out, you dig a hole for yourself - people will question it!
Anyway, as the organisation has gone the way of the dodo, this is all a little moot.
This is going round in circles.
Martyn, and I prefered talking to you about crusader cups, measurements and cook pots.
I thought I had provided the evidence and the fact that posts by Survivability have been changed, I thought backed that up.
TS do have an enforcement concordat agreement with local authorities.
I will repeat what I said to Tone And Stuart - If you feel I have done something wrong then rectify it - you are the moderator with the ability to change posts, even without the "edited" labelling coming up at the bottom as the last post you did has been edited without this appearing.
Now, I'm going for a long walk - ON THORNS.
Chris :wave:
This is going round in circles.
Agreed.
THREAD CLOSED.
If one of the other mods or admins feels the need to reopen it, to re-address some issue, then of course, they will do as they see fit.
Spot on Martyn!
Chris, your complaint or enquiry to the TS officers is a point worth noting but beyond that nothing can be inferred from it. The site vanished and that's all we know for sure. If a TS case went as far as court and action was taken, that's one thing but complaints, enquiries and the like are not relavant and any speculation as to what happened next arising from them is just that - speculation.
You took whatever action you felt you had to at the time and that's fine but whether that action had anything to do with what happened next is based on guesswork and is irrelavant and has no place here.
I agree Martyn, with the association gone and ISWBA now once again only representing a women's bowling association, this is now all moot.
I think that this icon sums up how I feel :dedhorse: