View Full Version : Experimentation
Well for those of you who know me you will probably know that I wear moccasins nearly all the time.
Not the massed produced rubbish with EVA midsoles that are a poor attempt at a moccasin upper attached to a standard shoe last, proper moccasins that are foot shaped rather than what a shoe manufacturer can make money on. I am a big believer that footwear should be foot shaped but there is a problem, that being that when anyone uses traditional moccasins outdoors on asphalt / concrete the soles don't last very long. In the past I have used McNett freesole to try and protect the sole, but to be honest I found that it was not really upto the job.
For a while now I have been making a new set of moccasins, but due to having been laid up with a knackered back I have had the chance to finish them, these I wanted to make and be happy that the soles would be OK, so these are a little bit of an experiment.
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/4103/moccasins1ls7.jpg
http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/8067/moccasins2nd1.jpg
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/8607/moccasins3pe5.jpg
So what's the big experiment I hear you say, well normally the outsole would of been made from the very same hide that the uppers and insole are made from and that would be it. In this case they have a layer of natural coloured transport soling there to protect them, hopefully it will remain in place:rolleyes: and I will still be able to maintain the sense of feel that I can normally.
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/9535/moccasins4jw5.jpg
They have been made from 7 or 8 ounce bison hide, all the stitching is from synthetic sinew (s0rry Eric as I know you hate the stuff), the design is my own although inspired by the Keltoi design of moccasin. S0rry about the laces they are what I had to hand at the time:o.
British Red
18-08-2007, 15:11
They are the dogs danglies Leon - you really need to make them commercially you know.
Do let us know how they go on - I've always fancied a pair but do fear the "wear out" element of them
God there are some talented people on this place
Red
john scrivy
18-08-2007, 15:34
I agree Red Id love a pair of those they are brll
Heathenpeddler
18-08-2007, 16:34
I'd love to see the pattern, especially in a size 8 :D
Thanks for the comments guys, I have been wearing Moccs for the last 3 to 4 years and I love them to bits. I wanted to make a set because I couldn't afford a proper pair so 4 pairs later this is the result, the others are still going, but I don't know how long for (the oldest set is coming up on 3.5 years old now).
I have considered it, but the cost to the end user would be high. Having said that a mate has asked me to make him a set, he'll supply the materials and since it was a mate I said yes.
Red if you are at the the WG you can have a look at them there, I'll either be wearing them or my bison boots (something else foot shaped and not shoe shaped). Hopefully I will know by then whether the sole will stay in place or if I need to look at another type of glue. The stuff I am using is made by Renia (Gummilosung) and from what I know of it is used by cobblers for this sort of thing, but I may have to change it to Multi-Colle or Colle De Collogne as I am not 100% sure of the make up of this sole.
They are comfy though:D, the bison hide was worth investing in, now I wonder what the Elk will be like:D.
I have used deerskin and moose hide before, the deerskin lasts very well :), the moose hide I won't go into as I end up ranting:o.
Anyone interested in moccs should have a look at yatahai. Be aware from some places though they charge an extra amount for exporting game products.
I'd love to see the pattern, especially in a size 8 :D
Hi mate I did a tutorial on how to make the pattern, it was in one of the BCUK magazines. Oh and incidentally these are size 8 :D.
Patterns can be bought reasonably cheaply from the states and Canada, as I mentioned these were based on the Keltoi design, I just made a few little changes and added a few personal touches to them. Look at Yatahai (http://www.yatahai.com) for patterns, the other place to try would be centralia fur and hide (http://www.furandhide.com/), but a lot of the patterns are made by Sparrowhawk anyway (that's the person behind Yatahai).
Something else to look out for would be crazy crow trading post, just run it through google, as they have a load of designs for clothing more than moccs.
:notworthy :D
Those are excellent Leon :cool:
Have you tried the paint on natural latex for the soles? I use it for felt boots and thin leather courrans. The only problem is that until it really dries it picks up allsorts of detritus, but once it *is* dry it's really good, hard wearing and waterproof.
cheers,
M
GREAT SHOES!!! The stitching looks so neat and they look perfectly made to a very high standard!!:You_Rock_
Thanks for the info Toddy, I have only ever used McNett Freesole and to be honest if the latex is the same I don't know if it would work, but it may be an idea for the next set. Have you any links as to reputable suppliers?
Thanks for the complement Jon, I have a very specific method for stitching to keep things neat, but as with anything worth doing right it takes time. The fun bit is always turning them the right way out as the air does not ever go blue and there is never any cursing;):D
Top job Leon......I'll be there Thursday night at the WG for inspection......:lmao:
Top job Leon......I'll be there Thursday night at the WG for inspection......:lmao:
I'll see you there:D.
Got any projects you have been working on??
If you have bring them along, it's always good to chew the fat with you falcon:D.
sallyinwales
19-08-2007, 09:52
:notworthy :D
Those are excellent Leon :cool:
Have you tried the paint on natural latex for the soles? I use it for felt boots and thin leather courrans. The only problem is that until it really dries it picks up allsorts of detritus, but once it *is* dry it's really good, hard wearing and waterproof.
cheers,
M
I'm another felt shoemaker and was going to also suggest the various paint on versions. To be honest, I havet used them much myself as my felt shoes usually get worn indoors or on soft surfaces, but I have heard good things from other makers about it.
Another possibility for a future pair, what about trying a welted construction so you can remove the soles and replace easily if needs be?
Another possibility for a future pair, what about trying a welted construction so you can remove the soles and replace easily if needs be?
Hi Sally, these actually have a welt that runs between the upper and the sole, it's not very noticeable in the pictures. One of the reasons for looking into making the soles that little more robust was to keep them cheaper in the long term. Another reason is that I normally buy the materials as specials which means that their availability isn't always assured.
The bison hide was imported from the States, so hopefully their will be greater and more reliable supplies in the future. Their is certainly more in the way of choice of material and in many more weights than we tend to get here in the UK.
It's a good suggestion though, many thanks.
In the future their will be piccies of a plains high top version that I have been meaning to get around to making. Traditionally the soles are made of rawhide, but i'll try a few others materials to see how they work as well.
Hi Leon ,
Nice pair of mocs that you made ,some hard work with the sole set up i bet. I made these from a pattern and used brown suede split. They are afew years old but still going strong. topknot.
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/3614/img0562iy9.jpg
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/78/img0563ma5.jpg
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/1407/img0564jf9.jpg
Hi Leon ,
Nice pair of mocs that you made ,some hard work with the sole set up i bet.
Yep, the soles are always fun:D.
I made these from a pattern and used brown suede split. They are afew years old but still going strong. topknot.
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/3614/img0562iy9.jpg
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/78/img0563ma5.jpg
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/1407/img0564jf9.jpg
That's a nice job as well there mate, what weight is the split if you don't mind me asking?
They look to be about 4 or 5 ounce (1.6 or 2mm) and the colour is pretty good.:)
I'll bear suede split in mind as well for future creations.
Hi Leon, There are made from 2mm (05oz) suede. Have a look at this web site Carl Dyers moccs. Topknot.
Really nice work bro!:)
The Gathering is gonna be full of folks showing their latest creations me thinks :D
Falcon I hope to see your latest bits ;)
I should have one or two new bits to show ( including my latest bit of recycling :D :D :D )
Any one else be there ? with new shiny things to show ?
see you there
Neil
Not a great deal to show Neil, but....you never know ;)
Buckshot
22-10-2007, 16:55
Leon what's the update with these?
Did the sole work out as intended?
What will you change the next pair?
etc etc etc
Mark
Eric_Methven
22-10-2007, 23:36
Don't know how I missed this thread before now. As far as keeping the soles on, a technique I use is to punch holes right through the sole, mid sole and inner if you use one, every half inch all the way round the shoe and three eights of an inch in from the edge. I use an awl. Into these holes I push a sharpened matchstick that I've dipped in glue (neoprene cement). Then I use a sharp chisel once the glue has dried and trim flush on the inside and outside. The wooden 'dowels' prevent the glued on sole from coming loose. Completely authentic method of fixing outer soles and were used in communities where nails and tacks were either unavailable or too expensive for using on shoes. If you don't fancy using matchsticks because they are made from softwood, small pegs whittled from oak work even better but take longer to make. Oh, and I don't dislike synthetic sinew, I just don't like using it in a historical context and people calling it original. I use it myself for non authentic projects, either that or dental floss (same stuff as far as I know).
Eric
These are great, Id like to make some moccasins but Im busy wrecking the house at the moment
(its supposed to be tidying up but you know me)
where would I find some patterns? the only patterns I have are the low cut type
:notworthy :D
Have you tried the paint on natural latex for the soles? I use it for felt boots and thin leather courrans. The only problem is that until it really dries it picks up allsorts of detritus, but once it *is* dry it's really good, hard wearing and waterproof.
cheers,
M
What do you mean by natural latex? Is this something you can buy off the shelf or what?:confused:
Don't know how I missed this thread before now. As far as keeping the soles on, a technique I use is to punch holes right through the sole, mid sole and inner if you use one, every half inch all the way round the shoe and three eights of an inch in from the edge. I use an awl. Into these holes I push a sharpened matchstick that I've dipped in glue (neoprene cement). Then I use a sharp chisel once the glue has dried and trim flush on the inside and outside. The wooden 'dowels' prevent the glued on sole from coming loose. Completely authentic method of fixing outer soles and were used in communities where nails and tacks were either unavailable or too expensive for using on shoes. If you don't fancy using matchsticks because they are made from softwood, small pegs whittled from oak work even better but take longer to make. Oh, and I don't dislike synthetic sinew, I just don't like using it in a historical context and people calling it original. I use it myself for non authentic projects, either that or dental floss (same stuff as far as I know).
Eric
Thanks Eric, I may well give that a try. Synthetic sinew is a strange one, the stuff that I bought in Europe is very much like dental floss, but the stuff that I got from the states is a totally different ballgame.
Leon what's the update with these?
Did the sole work out as intended?
What will you change the next pair?
etc etc etc
Mark
Hi Mark, the sole does work, but not quite as intended, because I adopt some funny sitting positions (I sit on my feet quite a bit, adding my body weight to the pressures the soling has to deal with) it means the sole has to be very flexible, this unfortunately means that the sole lifts at the edges. I know why this happens as well.
Most normal shoes are constructed on a stiffened/board last, these however are infinitely flexible in comparison to moost footwear having no last at all. The added rigidity of the last at the edges allows the soling to maintain its grip in the places where it lifts on these.
I still think this will work, so the soling will not lift at the edges, if I can find a glue / resin that will be strong and flexible enough.
I had an idea about using the soling and the mocc coated with mcnett freesole as I nearly dislocated a shoulder seperating a set of moccs whose soles were touch dry that fell together with mcnett freesole on them.:o
The other one would have to be one of the super strong contact adhesives.
Incidentally the soles are still on these and I use them on a daily basis indoors and out. I am just trying to get it to my total satisfaction.:rolleyes:
The next set, hmmmm..........
May well be plains moccasins with a more rigid sole in the first place which would work like a last in some ways, but I will not be giving up on the woodlands type moccs:)
where would I find some patterns? the only patterns I have are the low cut type
Hi Tengu, this was from an earlier post. I hope it helps.:)
Patterns can be bought reasonably cheaply from the states and Canada, as I mentioned these were based on the Keltoi design, I just made a few little changes and added a few personal touches to them. Look at Yatahai (http://www.yatahai.com/) for patterns, the other place to try would be centralia fur and hide (http://www.furandhide.com/), but a lot of the patterns are made by Sparrowhawk anyway (that's the person behind Yatahai).
Buckshot
24-10-2007, 10:39
Thanks Leon
What about the edges of the mocc sole?
When I wear moccs they often roll to one side as I wear them - must be something to do with how I walk :eek: (I may try out for the ministry of silly walks ;) )
Have you found a problem with the unprotected edges moving to the underside of the mocc and being worn away?
Cheers
Mark
Thanks Leon
What about the edges of the mocc sole?
When I wear moccs they often roll to one side as I wear them - must be something to do with how I walk :eek: (I may try out for the ministry of silly walks ;) )
Have you found a problem with the unprotected edges moving to the underside of the mocc and being worn away?
Cheers
Mark
The only areas to the sides that have worn have been the welt on any of the sets that I own. Nearly all of my moccs have been quite a tight fit to my foot and the main part of the upper sits almost a centimeter off the ground.
The moccasin uppers in this case slighlty pull the sole up and around the foot. They effectively mould to the sole of the foot pulling slightly around the sides. When I walk I walk from the outside rear of the heel, across the ball to the big toe.
The welt seems to protect the upper and the stitching pretty well on any areas that would of received wear otherwise (mainly the outside rear of the heel) and that's the same on the oldest set I have as well.
As you know I have been playing with different materials for a while.
The brain tanned moose hide moccs that I have the sole is going already and that is on the ball of the foot, gutted as I like them, but they are not as comfortable as these are.
The oldest set that I have are Keltoi design made from a Yatahai pattern from chrome tanned deerskin, they have held up very well and are considerably thinner than the moose or the buffalo hide. So the deerskin gets a thumbs up from me.
A lot of the time though the folks at Yatahai use buffalo to reinforce their normal soles, so this particular set should last pretty well. I will be trying out Elk at some stage to see how that compares, it is certainly flexible, but I think in the end it may be a little soft.
Another thing is the mid soles, I have played with polyurethane (odour eater) type insoles laminated together, they work, but I still think that the felt that I have used in previous sets may well be better. There may also be that little extra rigidity that I am after in them.