View Full Version : Bushcraft Skills vs. Survival Skills...
TheViking
05-07-2004, 15:47
Hi...
Maybe this is the same type of topic that has already been discussed, but again not quiet the same! :wink:
What skills goes under the word 'Bushcraft' and what skills goes under the word 'Survival'
Lets get a wide and big discussion going...! :biggthump :mrgreen:
Buckshot
05-07-2004, 16:25
I always thought Bushcraft was working with nature with the ability to live on a long term basis.
Survival is more the ability to live for a couple of days until you're picked up by the search and rescue. It's more a case of surviving inspite of being in the great outdoors rather than in partnership with it.
Some things do overlap, such as making fire.
That's my opinion anyway
Cheers
Mark
RovingArcher
05-07-2004, 17:16
Buckshot hit it on the head. Survival is a forced issue where the individual has just enough tools and knowledge to wait out a rescue. Some of the skills will overlap between the two, but for the most part, a survivor doesn't enjoy or understand the woods, they want to be back at home in their warm bed.
A Bushcrafter enjoys being in the woods, for whatever reason that lives in their hearts and minds. They are more at home in the bush, than they are sitting on their living room sofa watching a good football game. They remember in their very souls that man was meant to live with nature, not at odds with her. They exercise a freedom, an understanding and a relationship with the Earth and their GOD that so many seek, yet very few find.
This is a question and a thread which has been up and down in the site since the beginning.
:nono:
In the long run and by general concensius I think we finally decided the following best defined survival and bushcraft.
:chill: Survival - is about ensuring your ability to stay alive in the first 72 hours of an emergency situation which, generally, isnt of your own choosing.
:pack: Bushcraft - is the ability the live and practice living in a more harmonious yet long term enviroment - generally of your own choosing - or as the second stage of long term survival.
Point to note on this one - skills are pretty indevisable. :uu:
Finally - my own opinion - to be good at one or the other you must really be practiced in both! :biggthump
I must admit the term bushcraft has grown on me since joining BCUK. I was definitely more into survival before! But we still tend to use the term pretty interchangeably here... :oops:
Having just got back from teaching survival skills to kids, I'm perhaps more focussed on that right now, but the reason behind it is that if they are going to enjoy the outdoors, then they need to know how to look after themselves should they get lost or separated from the rest of the group. As others have said, survival is fulfilling your basic immediate needs (shelter, warmth, water, getting home etc) and I see bushcraft as being about doing the same things, but perhaps at a more leisurely pace! :-)
ChrisKavanaugh
05-07-2004, 19:12
Smart survival is taking a pro active part in your rescue; whistles, mirrors, signal fires, flares, cell phones,the near state of the art PLB systems . Whatever got you into your situation is best remedied by evacuation ASAP. Most of the forums have sadly forgotten this. I don't care what exotic steel your knife is made of. It won't stop Mount Saint Helens. Our Bushcraft skills and tools are simply what many peoples live with in the 'wild places' as a matter of daily living ( lucky #*!@% )
the near state of the art PLB systems What is this? A gadget I don't know about??? :?:
C_Claycomb
05-07-2004, 19:37
Personal Locator Beacon :-D
I got the Personal and Beacon bits without help, but 15 seconds of thinking didn't enlighten me for the L part, so went and looked on Google :lol:
http://www.equipped.com/faq_plb/default.asp
Cheers for the link, Chris! A pretty serious piece of kit! Enough to carry already though ... think I'll stick with the GPS, flares and the radar balloon. :wink:
the first thing that springs to mind is:
Bushcrafters carve spoons...... which is the last thing on a survivors mind
one wants to get out as soon as possible, one wants to stay as long as he can
ChrisKavanaugh
05-07-2004, 20:46
Kath, PLB's are still very expensive, and there are some first generation shortcomings. I hope these will eventually drop in price as they become more common. Radar Balloon? Are we talking about one of the various mylar, space blanket affairs you deploy as a signal? Their alleged ability to generate a radar signal is a marketing gimmick. Back to Viking's question: the only real difference in kit or gear is probably the consideration of weight and bulk. Pilots and mariners may have to make compromises in size and quantity, though the lightweight backpacking industry has narrowed the gap. For example, the Springfield Arms M6 .410/ .22 lr or .22 hornet sold here is a copy of the USAF survival rifle designed for minimal weight and the so called 'button compasses' that were concealed as -buttons. Survival gear may also face long term storage; MRE type foods, compressed sleeping bags ( expensive,) and other gear treated for mildew, rust resistance or pest damage. Bushcraft gear is more in use on a regular basis. We become accustomed to it, learn the idiosyncritcise and shortcomings, what really works and what doesn't.
Survivor just want to picked up and get away for that horrible place som call home and wish they never had to leave it. Survivors want to be seen bushcrafters donīt.
Bushcraft is so much more then carving sppons learning to build shelters and tracking down animals. Itīs about listen to the forest, hear what it habitant has to say about it, and above all respect it.
Cheers for the link, Chris! A pretty serious piece of kit! Enough to carry already though ... think I'll stick with the GPS, flares and the radar balloon. :wink:
Dont think they're legal/work in the UK Kath - not sure we really have the environment to justify such things here. I think it's only really been in the last 2 years or so that they've been legal/working in the US.
[edit, hmmm maybe we have costal waters rough enough to justify them on boats and liferafts?]
Here's the ultimate in cool PLB ...
http://www.breitling.com/en/models/professional/emergency/
Anyone want to buy me one, I'll test it out!!! :biggthump
NickBristol
06-07-2004, 11:15
Adi, I won one of those about 5 years ago - I thought all my boyhood dreams had come true but was sadly disappointed. The model on the link looks a bit different and much smaller than mine so I guess they've learnt some lessons from previous models. First, it weighed best part of a ton and it felt huge on my wrist. I was always catching it on things, like doorframes and jacket pockets. Until I'd worn it for a day I had no idea that a watch really could make your arm feel tired. Second, I wore it in the shower and the dial misted up on the inside and the minute hand stopped working. Made me wonder how good it'd be if it needed use in the ocean... :shock: Never had the nerve to pull the cable to activate the alarm, the booklet with it was full of warnings that the full cost (min Ģ10k!) of any 'rescue' would be down to you if it wasn't for real. Temptation was huge to try it though.... :D
After that I sent it back to the people who gave me it and they swapped it for some vouchers.
Think I'll stick with my trusty Traser then! I think that the radioactivity in that is actually making me stonger! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Dont think they're legal/work in the UK Kath - not sure we really have the environment to justify such things here. I think it's only really been in the last 2 years or so that they've been legal/working in the US.
[edit, hmmm maybe we have costal waters rough enough to justify them on boats and liferafts?]
They're legal and they work ;)
The environment I've come across them is, naturally enough, diving. They have a few shortcomings AIUI, not least of which is "waterproof" boxes which aren't quite as waterproof as they ought to be.
I tend to carry a flag, DSMB, whistle and (in warm water areas) heliograph whilst diving; I don't feel that a PLB is an appropriate addition for the diving I do.
i don't think a miniature EPIRB would be as good as a full size one. Espicially wenn you can wear it on your wrist...
In actual practice the terms are frequently used interchangeably. As an example, Larry Dean Olsen's book is called "Outdoor Survival Skills" which is the quintessential bushcraft book. However the term "survival," like so many words, has multiple meanings and is highly dependent on context for it's actual meaning. For instance, if you are washed overboard at sea in the arctic ocean, I don't think your ability to survive that experience would generally be classified as bushcraft, would it? A pilot during a war who is shot down behind enemies lines and relies on stealing, artifice, combat, and concealment to survive would not be called a bushcrafter would he/she?
I think the term bushcraft is less broadly defined. However my first exposure to the term bushcraft was from Richard Graves' book "Bushcraft" subtitled "A Serious Guide to Survival and Camping." Yet the book itself is more bushcrafty than "survival."
Maybe one of the best ways to draw the distinction is to look at various books.
Books like Olsen's, Graves, McPherson's and Ellsworth Jaeger's for instance (with minor exceptions), fall clearly in the total Bushcraft category. Mears' "Bushcraft," with his emphasis on modern kit items is a little less so and books like "How To Stay Alive in the Woods," by Angier or Rutstrum's "The New Way of the Wilderness" and Kephart's "Camping and Woodcraft" fall into the middle range. On the survival side, I reckon the classics of the genre would be the military survival manuals like the US Army Survival Manual (FM-76) and the US Air Force Search and Rescue Survival manuals (AFM 64-4 and 64-5).
There is no set definition for bushcraft that I am aware of, although it has also been linked with terms such as "eco-tourism", but the definition of survival is a state of surviving; remaining alive.
This pretty much sums up the major difference between the two, bushcraft should be ecologically sound. It is also done for enjoyment whereas survival is not.
The skills used by people that are trained in survival are very much the same, it is the purpose that they are used for that makes the difference, just because we are practising bushcraft does not mean that at some stage we may not find ourselves using those skills to survive.
It is not the lack of knowledge or equipment that kills, it is failure to recognise how the situation has escalated to a level where it is now survival and not a walk in the mountains or a bushcrafting trip that has gone wrong.
dataphage
07-07-2004, 10:28
Totally agree with the bushcraft being ecologically sound etc. & with survival skills being used to be noticed/rescued & the survival situation being the one that you don't realise you're in until you are already cold, wet, hungry and a long, long way from anything made of bricks. However, I think there is a difference between survival & bushcraft which may not be appropriate to this thread as it is about skills rather than outlook. Having said that...
I imagine that this thread would be a lot different if most of the people contributing were from the US where survival(ism) is viewed as not just a situation by situation set of skills to aid in your survival but an outlook & a set of skills that would enable the protagonist to deal with a perceived possible total breakdown in society and provide for & defend their family/community in that instance. This often seems to be linked to the more unpleasant right wingers but can lead to some interesting characters. I seem to remember Louis Theroux going to meet the author of The Build Your Own House Book and getting thoroughly smashed on moonshine in the hand-built house in the woods.
Bushcraft on the other hand seems to be a more universal term for the collected knowledge of outdoor living/activity based on techniques both ancient & modern using the tools at hand rather than a selection of expensive gadgets (although expensive gadgets are nice too).
To return to the skills aspect though, the main differnece I can see between survival skills & bushcraft skills is that you use a smaller knife for bushcraft.
:-)
Good points!
The survivalists think they'll survive the teotwawki because of all their kit; whereas in reality the bushcrafters will survive because of their skills! :smokin:
on another forum, a thread was started as to "what is bushcraft?"
my reply was some thing like:
bushcraft is a term i'm beginning to dislike, but that's another story.
at the risk of compromising my hard man tough guy image...
to me, it's about appreciating all mother natures gifts, taking those gifts, unwrapping them, throwing away the toys and playing with the box! no, seriously, i could just do the eco tourist thing, take nothing but photo's, leave nothing but footprints.
but if a friend came round with a beautifully wrapped present for my birthday, i wouldn't just sit it on the mantlepiece and look at it. i squeeze it, rattle it, try to guess what it is, unwrap it and enjoy it.
if i wanted only to look at nature without fear that i might somehow contaminate it, i'd stay at home and watch the national geographic channel.
bushcraft is about enjoying nature, by learning to unwrap those gifts of nature, and interacting with nature. and still leaving no sign of our passing.
survival is a massive subject, wilderness skills are just one facet of "survival"
cheers, and.
I have looked around on the web at other sites and most are geared toward survival and impending doom so this comes a nice surprise.
As a boy I practiced bushcraft but did not know it. I made wooden spoons and lean to shelters. I hunted and fished with what I carried. I ate what I caught and used the parts I didn't for something else. Not because I had to, but because I could. I learned how to exist with the wilderness not compete against it. Bushcraft is what the educated do in the wild. Survival is because you don't know any better.
Welcome to the site.
As a fellow :newbie: I can tell you that you will not meet a friendlier and helpful bunch of bushcraft addicts anywhere on the web. :super:
Cheers,
Martin
Oh and a word of warning. Hold on to your wallet. There are lots of goodies that people on this site use that will have you reaching for the plastic :o): :o):
arctic hobo
02-12-2004, 20:09
Can I just echo all that shinobi said :-)
To me survival isn't just surviving a plane crash in Siberia like survival guides say. To me survival and bushcraft are one and the same thing - going back to a state where your no.1 object is to survive. My bushcraft ideal is to be in that situation, like primitive man - surviving. As you might argue that that's how we're 'meant to be', I believe that would make me very happy in my life. Bushcrafting is more of a hobby - survival is bushcraft taken to it's ultimate conclusion. To me, anyway. :-)