Problems with Japanese water-stones

[-Switch-]

For years I've been sharpening my tools with an old stone of my grandads (I've no idea what grit it is) and a bit of 3-in-1 oil. With some stropping afterwards they've always come out sharp enough to shave arm hair, with a little pressure.

I decided, after reading alot about them on here (and a little influence from RM), to get a full set of Japanese water-stones - 800, 1200 and 6000 grit. The thing is, I'm not able to get my tools any sharper than I did with my Grandads old oil stone.
The water stones are a lot more effort to use, were more expensive and have produced identical results. I can't help but feel dissapointed :( .

Am I doing anything wrong at all? Has anyone else experienced this? Perhaps I was wrongly expecting miracle results from my new stones :confused:

[fred gordon]

I certainly couldn't say I'm an expert but I really like the Japanese Waterstones. I used to use the grit and oil alternative but find the Waterstones much easier, and a lot less messy, to use. I wouldn't expect one to sharpen my tools any more/less than the other. Personally I find the Waterstones a treat and would agree with what RM says about them. However, I'm sure others on here will give you a much more technical opinion. :rolleyes:

[Ed]

Am I doing anything wrong at all?
Not at all.... you should be able to get a blade shaving sharp with either an oil stone and strop or using waterstones and strop. The reason waterstones tend to be popular is when it comes to sharpening in the field. With the oil stone you need to take oil and it can be messey if said oil leaks from your stone (or bottle) while in your pack, and its also a good idea to carry some detergant to get the oil off your hands afterwards.... where as a waterstone you can just dunk in a river for 10 mins... use it and let it dry out.

:)
Ed

[spamel]

Are you maintaining exactly the same angle every time you push the blade down the stone? Sometimes, people slightly vary it and this can have an adverse effect on your bevel. My Dad has been sharpening knives for years, and I reckon he is actually crap at sharpening!

If you have a problem with maintaininjg the same angle, a piece of wood shaped so that your knife, when rested on it, is at the right angle could help. Place it at the end of the stone, rest your knife on it and then push away from the wood and you will have the angle set. Do this for every time you push the blade and eventually you will get the memory in your muscles that will have you maintaining the same angle every time.





Or buy a Scandi ground knife!!

[Shinken]

Waterstone wont make it any sharper but they are a lot less messy! I just love the feel of sharpening on a whetstone, to me whetstones are a pleasure to use and oilstones arent!

[-Switch-]

Spamel,
The knife I most often sharpen is a Frosts Mora, so I'm used to sharpening a scandi grind. My technique is quite good and I can consistantly get a good edge on it and my other tools (axe, bush knife with a second bevel, stainless blade, carbon blade) but my main issue is that maybe I was expecting the water stones to be alot better than they are :(

Shinken,
Please explain to me how you manage to create less mess with water stones! The slurry they produce gets everywhere.
Or maybe I'm just very messy :o

[Shinken]

Well you make a mess then you just run it under the tap and whoalla no mess. Try running an oilstone under the tap.

See what i mean?

[Gailainne]

I know you were being facetious Shinken, but please, mix an oilstone with water, and get a new oilstone, cause that ones fu....eh damaged beyond repair.
Edit You learn something new every day, it seems water or kero, and a flat stone (concrete) is used to reflatten an oil stone, appologies for giving out wrong info.

I sharpen workshop tools, chisels, plane blades on an oil stone, but I could'nt get a decent edge on my knifes with one, probably because its 2 edges (my supposition) and switching screwed with my rhythm...or something :o.

Since Delamere and GrahamS's lesson in sharpening I've been practising, using the waterstones, and I'm getting there, not hair popping, but I havent sorted out a strop yet. I think from what I've read and from Grahams excellent lesson, the final 5% (as usual) is the key.

Yeah the slurry gets everywhere, but its also easy to clean, you cant say that about oil.

I'm still trying to decide whether to keep my waterstones wet/sealed, or allow them to dry, and in the long run will it matter ?

Stephen

[SOAR]

I used to have an oil stone that was my dads and I had no success at sharpening with it, then I, like you forked out alot of money for some waterstones and I had alot of success with them. I recently messed up my gransfors axe on a rock, and I was forced to try and rectify my mistake by resharpening. I had never done this with an axe before and after 10 minutes on my waterstones it is now sharper than when it left the factory. I think it is horses for courses really I prefer the waterstones, maybee like you said you expected more for your money.

[Shinken]

damaged beyond repair

~Thats what i meant try running an oilstone under the tap and you get a mess. You dont with waterstones!!

[Lore]

Running an oilstone under a tap is not going to ruin your oilstone. If the oilstone has been used with oil the water will just run off the stone. Both oilstones and waterstones will give hair shaving sharpness. When using oilstones you only need enough oil to lubricate the stone ( it helps to stop the pores in stone from clogging) you do not need a litre of your favorite engine oil. Water stones can be easier to use in the field as has been said but oilstones can have their place to.

[jojo]

I use waterstones all the time. I haven't used an oil stones in years. The main reason being the mess the oil makes and I found the oil was no good for the skin on my hands. Water is non-toxic, oil is not.

[Graham_S]

at the end of the day, both are just methods of grinding metal away from the edge.
any method of removing metal will sharpen a knife.
waterstones are not a "magic wand" for sharpening. they, like any other technique will require practice and skill to use effectively.
I find the waterstones do have a nice consistent grit and take the metal off evenly and under control, and can get to a very high standard of finish due to the ultra fine grits. but they are not the be all and end all of sharpening.

[-Switch-]

One thing to be said of my water stones is that they have encouraged me to be a little less hasty when sharpening and to take more care. They (especially the 6000 grit) are quite soft compared to my oil stone and it's easy to make one mistake and end up putting a nasty groove on the surface of the stone. :o

I've not yet had cause to use sharpening stones ''in the field'' so that benefit didn't occur to me. I agree that a water stone would be alot more convenient to use when away from the workshop, not to mention more environmentally friendly - there's nothing worse than patches of oil to mess up a nice camp area, especially if it then starts raining :yuck:

[weaver]

Well, let's see. You were already expert and satisfied with one method, heard about something new, tried it and now you are not ecstatic with the results. Hmmmm?

Perhaps too high expectations. Perhaps not enough time to experience the difference. Perhaps not fully utilizing the tool to it's best advantage.

Water stones should be totally swamped with water, not just a dab like the oil on a Carborundum stone. I use a flat plastic box to hold my stone, filled half full of water it is easy to keep the stone very wet. Smooth stones take a little longer to grind away the metal so be patient. By the time you get through the 6000 stone your blade should be mirror smooth.

Any reason you skipped the 3000-4000 range? 800 to 1200 is a small jump compared with 1200 to 6000. I would add one more stone. Probably 3000.

I use a 600 diamond for rough work, a 1000 water stone for smoothing and 3000 for final polish. 6000 would be nice but I don't really need that fine an edge. A red rouge on hard leather brings it close enough for me.

[-Switch-]

Weaver,

The reason I have those particular grits is that I bought a kit which included a 800g and a 6000g with no intermediate grit stone. It was recommended to me that I buy the 1200g to fill that gap.

And I was by no means 'expert' with my oil stone :o I had got to the point where I could achieve a satisfactory finish on my tools but wanted to get them to the next stage. I didn't want to invest in another oil stone of a finer grit because I was unsure what grit my current stone was. I'd read and heard alot about how wonderful these water stones are so decided to invest, hoping I would be able to improve my sharpening technique and results.

I also can't get a 'mirror' finish on my tools with the 6000 grit stone, whereas I could with the oilstone and a bit of stropping. There seems to be no change in the quality of finish -in terms of sharpness and smoothness - between the 1200g and the 6000g stones. This doesn't seem right :confused:

[British Red]

That sounds well weird to me Switch. Do you use a nagura stone on the 6000g?

Tell you what. Do you want to sharpen it on my stones for you? I can have a look at the blade and see if I can improve on the current edge if you like - I can certainly get the average scandy sharp enough to slice a wet cigarette paper. If I can get it to a place where you are happy with it, at least we'll know it can be done. I'd be happy to take pictures of how I do it if that helps?

Red

[Gailainne]

Lucky man Switch, jump at that offer mate.

[-Switch-]

That sounds well weird to me Switch. Do you use a nagura stone on the 6000g?

Tell you what. Do you want to sharpen it on my stones for you? I can have a look at the blade and see if I can improve on the current edge if you like - I can certainly get the average scandy sharp enough to slice a wet cigarette paper. If I can get it to a place where you are happy with it, at least we'll know it can be done. I'd be happy to take pictures of how I do it if that helps?

Red

Yes I do use one. The question is - am I using it properly? ;)

I've had conflicting information thrown at me about nagura stones, some of which I've acted upon:

1. It is used to remove the black marks left on the finer grit stones as they remove the burrs from the steel. The slurry is then washed off before using.

2. It is used to ''remove the protective varnish from the surface of the stone before it is first used''. (This didn't make much sense to me as the stone had no varnish on it whatsoever.)

3. It is used to create a slurry on top of the stone prior to sharpening which aids the stone in removing the metal from the knife, leaving a mirror finish.

4. It is used to 'dress' the surface of the stone incase of any nicks or dents created while sharpening. Again, any slurry created must be washed off prior to use.


Can you shed any light on this Red? Or anyone else for that matter :confused:


And thanks for the offer of sharpening it for me Red. I'll see what responses I get from here first and act on them and if it still doesn't improve then I may just take you up on that offer :D

[Gailainne]

Switch
I dont know if your aware but theres an extra in one of Ray Mears DVD's on sharpening knifes, using water stones, it was very good, always better seeing it realtime, but clear consise instructions, well structured, I think its available as a download, but don't have the link, hopefully someone else will.

BTW No. 3 slurry to aid sharpening.

Stephen

[-Switch-]

I own that particular RM DVD and have seen the tutorial which is very good, but the other 'uses' for the nagura stone I have mentioned have also come from supposedly reliable sources so I didn't want to trust one more than the rest. (no.2, in case you're interested, was written on a bit of paper tucked inside the box that my nagura stone came in).

I have a feeling yourself and Ray are probably right, but I have know him to be wrong about certain things before! (the taste of pine-needle tea for starters :yuck: ;) )

[British Red]

I use mine primarily to create a fine slurry on my 6,000 grit stone for finishing (#3). I don't think its abrasive enough to flatten a stone if that was needed - works fantastically for that final mirror polish though. I truly do get a mirror shine.

I wonder - how many passes are you using mate?

I sharpen out nicks on an crosscut file. then a coarse oilstone to lose the file marks.

Then 100 passes on alternate directions on 800 between

250 passes alternate on 1200

500 passes alternate on 6000

500 passes alternate using a nagura paste

buff the wire for 50 passes or so on a buffing compound leather strop

Now thats a complete re-dress from badly damaged metal - far less is needed on a dull edge. Its a job I can do with one one good DVD though!

Red

[-Switch-]

I use mine primarily to create a fine slurry on my 6,000 grit stone for finishing (#3). I don't think its abrasive enough to flatten a stone if that was needed - works fantastically for that final mirror polish though. I truly do get a mirror shine.

I wonder - how many passes are you using mate?

I sharpen out nicks on an crosscut file. then a coarse oilstone to lose the file marks.

Then 100 passes on alternate directions on 800 between

250 passes alternate on 1200

500 passes alternate on 6000

500 passes alternate using a nagura paste

buff the wire for 50 passes or so on a buffing compound leather strop

Now thats a complete re-dress from badly damaged metal - far less is needed on a dull edge. Its a job I can do with one one good DVD though!

Red

Whoa...

If that's anything to go by then I'm not making nearly enough passes.

This may sound like a silly question but are more passes required on water stones than an oil stone to achieve the same finish? I'm suspecting the answer is 'yes' as the water stones are softer?
I tend to shy away from making too many passes for fear of wearing the blade down unnecessarily. Perhaps more confidence is what i need... :cool:

[Gailainne]

Mate thank you for the needle tea comment, made me smile, which have been few and far between of late.

The Nagura stone, all your options dont really dismiss any of the others, clean up the stone, clean any marks, create a slurry, your preparing the surface, creating a clean smooth surface to start from, thats no different from an oil stone, so wheres your problem ? If I may, I think your over analysing things, at the end of the day your sharpening a blade, just like you've done no doubt hundred of times with an oil stone, but this time with a water stone, slightly different prep, but the motion is the same, and the result is the same, ouch if you aint careful :D.
If your worried about ruining a good knife do what I did, practice on a cheap blade, an 8 quid mora would be perfect, if you dont have a suitable blade to hand, Me I still have shi....eh lots of knifes that need a seeing too.

My ramblings, after a few could be intoxicating beverages.


Stephen

[British Red]

Its not so much the number of passes as passes per grit. My oil stones are relatively coarse - so they take off a lot of metal in each pass. As they get finer (higher grit), they take off much less metal so need more asses - its almost a "polishing" action thats required to get a perfect edge.

Don't misunderstand me - you don't need that many passes on a slightly dull blade. Thats what I do to a completely ruined blade that I have to take a couple of mm off to restore. Once its really sharp it tends to stay that way unless you chip it - a few passes on a high grit is all thats needed. I agree not to take of loads of metal - but until its shaving shar, you have to take enough off to do the job. Each grit should be polishing out the scratch marks of the last

Red

[-Switch-]

Thanks for all the helpful comments guys.
I'm gonna get the stones out again tomorrow (bit tired right now) and see what I can do.
:D

[-Switch-]

I got my water stones out again and had another go.

I decided I would clean up an old stainless steel lock knife I've had for a few years. The blade was so blunt you could hold it very tightly in your hand and drag it along your palm without so much as a scratch, so it was a prime candidate for a good sharpening :)
Also it was part serrated (the main reason it's not been used for so long) and I wanted to get rid of the serrations and have an edge along the whole length of the blade.

I got rid of the serrations with a file and also filed the rest of the blade to suit the profile of the new edge. I then used Reds method detailed above to grind a completely new bevel on the blade then sharpen and hone it to a good, keen edge. (I really should get a digital camera so I can post up pictures of this kind of thing :rolleyes: )

With a good number of passes on the stones and the proper use of my nagura stone I've managed to get a very sharp edge on my knife.
It's sharp enough that it will shave the hair off my arm without any pressure - just touching the hairs is enough to cut them.


I'm very happy with this and it prompted me to have another go at my Mora - with the same results. :D

Looks like all I needed was confidence and patience, not to mention a nudge in the right direction from you guys, so thanks :You_Rock_

[British Red]

I'm really pleased that worked out for you mate - they are a great thing but as you say, its a patience and confidence thing. I find it kind of therapeutic and do it infront of the TV on a coffee table. I quite enjoy when I get up to the fine blades testing the edge and smiling to myself :D

Red

[Andy]

just a thought but IMO if the blade doesn't shave before you strop something isn't right.
If you have fine stones the strop shouldn't really need to take a burr off the edge as the strop will tear the metal off rather then cut, The reason you add a stropping paste to the strop is to make it cut rather then tear. If you jump from 1200 to 6000 grit you wont end up with a edge like yuo would get from going through all the grits inbetween but you can cut off the burrs left by the 1200g, this may be a better suited edge for the work your doing. FWIW I normally sharpen to about 2500 and then jump to a 10k to cut any burrs off which leaves a more even edge then most people get with stropping. A unloaded strop will to an extrent pull the steel out making the final edge slightly thinner but this wont be as strong as something where it's cut off with fine abrasive. It is ideal for a straight razor as you can pull teh edge back.

[dwardo]

I dont know if its right or not but i find that its takes ages the first time round to put "my" edge on a knife.... May also be due to me having to get used to the shape of each blade and even handle before i can get it hair popping :eek: infact im having a right mare with one now lol but i allways get there in the end ;)

Maybe its a tiny bit more patience and familiarity before you crack it :D

[Brian.T]

That sounds well weird to me Switch. Do you use a nagura stone on the 6000g?

Tell you what. Do you want to sharpen it on my stones for you? I can have a look at the blade and see if I can improve on the current edge if you like - I can certainly get the average scandy sharp enough to slice a wet cigarette paper. If I can get it to a place where you are happy with it, at least we'll know it can be done. I'd be happy to take pictures of how I do it if that helps?

RedHi BR. I know you werent talking to me, but personally I would be grateful if you be able to do a pictorial of knife sharpening. I have a little experience of sharpening chisels, but to be honest I have never really managed to perfect that. Its obviously the technique.

[British Red]

Brian,

I have done a simple one int the past (trying to show how you don't need fancy tools and so forth)

Have a look here to see if it helps. If you have any specific questions on waterstones I'd be happy to help

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11571

Red

[British Red]

Dwardo - many "factory" bevels are as rough as a badgers backside. I often have to start on a coarse stone to grind out bevel problems and then work through the grits. A recent axe was so bad I started with a cross cut file :(. Once its right, its easy - don't be frightened to take some metal off - even a Mora can be hugely improved by a good sharpening job to take of the small secondary

Red

[Brian.T]

Brian,

I have done a simple one int the past (trying to show how you don't need fancy tools and so forth)

Have a look here to see if it helps. If you have any specific questions on waterstones I'd be happy to help

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11571

RedMany thanks, I'll have a look later :)