View Full Version : Who went out in the rain today?
Hi Guys, I wondered if any of you were out in the bad weather trying to do something bushcrafty?
I did a bit of a woodland trek with my boy (his idea!) collected some Elderflowers for cordial, found a great stick for tracking and got soaked! But we did have a great time even if it was impromptu.
What about the rest of you?
Ahhhhh, I forgot, football's on the TV :rolmao:
yes,but what better reason to go out?
BorderReiver
24-06-2004, 22:02
yes,but what better reason to go out?
:-P Here here.
Took the dogs into the woods,bits of tree flying everywhere in the wind.
We went to the beach for a swim (the dogs) but I stopped sending them in after 10 minutes as the waves were too big and I didn't want to drown the poor devils :roll:
C_Claycomb
24-06-2004, 22:10
As far as I am concerned football on the TV is one of the BEST reasons to be out in the woods! First it gets you away from the footbal :lol: and as an added bonus, there are fewer people to share the woods with :-D
Over here in Herts the rain held off and we had a pretty good evening. Only problem was the wind. Ashridge, the local forest to me, is FULL of huge beech, oak and sweet chestnut that have been blown over, roots and all. I love the woods, but I don't trust them in winds.
As a consolation prize, I got to burn all my spoon making chips at the bottom of the garden :roll: :lol: :roll:
the night before last i was out teaching a mate mapreading, it was hissing down.
last night i was out playing with a big pointy toy 8-) it was very windy but dry. kids had been playing with me camera again, dead batteries!
tonight i'm mostly dossing in front of the pc.
football? we was robbed! bleedin ref :twisted: :wink:
cheers, and.
The General
24-06-2004, 23:23
I went for a walk on the beach with my mum and her two Tibetin Terriers! Rain was driving down and it was surprisingly cold. My SAS waterproof worked a treat though!
There was a huge bleached tree on the beach. It had been washed up. I had a whittle on it with my 806 Axis folder and flipping heck it was tough as iron! Is this normal?
There was a huge bleached tree on the beach. It had been washed up. I had a whittle on it with my 806 Axis folder and flipping heck it was tough as iron! Is this normal?
Nah, yer knife was blunt :twisted:
My boys just asked me what I was laughing about!! :uu: :rolmao:
Buckshot
25-06-2004, 08:33
I went out last night, it was showery rather than pouring.
Had the radio on in the Landy so I could hear the score as I came back in hearing range.
I didn't do anything drastic, just had a walk round.
Cheers
Mark
My good lady and I ( AKA Anne) took the horse's out. I ( AKA James Bond's stunt double) had Big Nose ( AKA Storm) and Anne had Swiss Tony ( AKA Jason).
I had Big Nose and Anne had Swiss Tony (AKA Jason). Now Swiss Tony, yes, (AKA Jason) is a yearly colt...............so that was fun.
My Kit list for this outing was
1 x Sun Glasses ( mirror ones from the 70's).......just a joke.
1 x Snowy River hat ( someone did stop and ask if I was Clint Eastwood, yeah I know, embarrassing isn't!)
1 x Leatherman Wave ( you will always be wanting to cut a piece of twine, don't ask me why, you just do)
1 x MaxP Thermite to carry all of our survival rations in ( well, to bottles of orange and some chewing gum!)
Couple of observations;
Never seen some many horse fly's about.
Seen my first 7 foot hog weed this year ( about 4 months to early)
Didn't know the Gilpins are selling up their dairy herd!
We (Me, Kath and the two bushkids) were out the other night moth trapping with a conservation society. The kind of thing that doesn't start till late and carries on till much later. This was carried out in clearing in a mixed FC woodland.
Super spot and the moths were plentiful. I was amazed at the quantity and diversity of these creatures. The weather was on the whole good but with the occasional showers.
Observations:
- Seem to be far fewer butterflies this year but moths seems about the same.
- Lots of ragwort growing. The Foot & Mouth a few years ago really gave it an opportunity to take hold here in Wales.
- More and more bloomin' rhody growing everywhere!
- Prolonged looking in UV bulbs gives you a real headache
Kit list:
- Tilley hat
- Karrimor fleece
- Brit Army lightweights
- Lowa boots
- RayBans (I know it's night, but I do want to look cool - nah, because we were messing with UV bulbs)
- MaxP Thermite with SureFire (M2), SERE 2000, FAK, notebook, Space Pen, lighter (just in case), ferro rod (just in case), tinder (just in case).
dataphage
25-06-2004, 10:10
Over here in Herts the rain held off and we had a pretty good evening. Only problem was the wind. Ashridge, the local forest to me, is FULL of huge beech, oak and sweet chestnut that have been blown over, roots and all. I love the woods, but I don't trust them in winds.:
Totally agree, C_Claycomb. I'm from Berkhamsted originally and know Ashridge. It is stuffed with very old trees and every time the wind gets up the old boughs come down from the trees and some trees get blown over. The best time to be out there will be today. There'll be lots of native hardwood down from the trees for carving projects & the wildlife will come out for a look around after the rain.
i went out in the rain on wensday, just had a short hike. Testing mine rain gear. Things learned: my gortex parka is good, canvas gaiters aren't warerproof and i need a good pair of rain pants !
Fallow Way
26-06-2004, 08:36
I have been out in the rain all through the last few days as I`m a forester. I was using a chainsaw with my team mate strimming some rights of way. Now, as a bushcrafter I`m aware of always being prepared (PPPPP) so in my rucksack i always have my wets (waterproofs). After a few hours of work i walked back up the track to see how my team mate was getting on, as the thought had occured to me I didnt see him with a bag, so where were his wets?
As I found when i saw him, his wets were elsewhere. He was sodden through to the bone and a long walk from the landrover hiding under a tree. Taking him back to base our manager was agast at the state of him. A change of PPE and under clothes and we headed off again.
It rained the next day as heavily.
Guess what he forgot to bring.
I know people that wear normal clothes no matter what the weather:yikes: .....Missplaced vanity I think
Out today for my first lesson in field archery - good fun!
Major lessons - (i) you CAN get splinters off a carbon fibre arrow shaft and (ii) hats fouls the bowstring, so you get a wet head !
Great to see more kids on the course than adults and to hear an excellent talk on safety before anything else.
Looking forward to the rest of the course.
Cheers,
I went for a walk on the beach with my mum and her two Tibetin Terriers! Rain was driving down and it was surprisingly cold. My SAS waterproof worked a treat though!
There was a huge bleached tree on the beach. It had been washed up. I had a whittle on it with my 806 Axis folder and flipping heck it was tough as iron! Is this normal?
I live on the coast in south wales and a great deal of the drift wood seems to be increadably hard, so i think its probably normal
Slept in my bivvy on a clifftop by the sea on Friday. Beautiful night - the stars were fantastic - but then it started bucketting down!
Anyway, well proud of myself for making coffee on my hexy stove while still staying dry inside my bag - stove was outside, I hasten to add! :wink: That "Wet Fire" works great, BTW (thanks Jack!)
Slept well, and stayed dry too, at least until it was time to go...then I got drenched while rolling my bag up. :-D
Roving Rich
29-06-2004, 13:54
Well, I was at Glastonbury watching tents, marquees and Stages flying !
It lashed it down! they cordoned off the Dance tent as its hundreds of tons of canvas looked like it may become a parachute at any minute.
I watched the football with 90000 others, more than there were in the stadium itself ! ROOOOOOOOOONEEEEEEEEEEEY went on for days.
My goretex proved invaluable. It did get wet on the inside, but compared to the £20 berghaus non breathable jacket it was heaven. My ex army DPM goretex leggings worked a treat, my friends abandoning theirs from excess "Betty Swollocks" :wink:
I danced till dawn in me wellies :-D
Rich
Went lightweight bivying over the weekend and really enjoyed it even though the rain really lashed down in the morning.
Kit list:
WS Woodlore knife
Brit Army Bivy
Mountain Equipment 3 sleeping bag
3/4 length Mountain Equipment Insu-Mat (think Thermarest only cheaper and more robust)
Maxpedition Thermite leg pouch (www.woodlandorganics.com)
Brit Army water bottle
Crusader mug
Hexy stove + mug adaptor
Tinder pouch with tinder (www.bearclawbushcraft.co.uk)
Ultimate Survival BlastMatch (www.woodlandorganics.com)
Ultimate Survival WetFire tinder (www.woodlandorganics.com)
Grub from ration pack
Other misc bits and bobs
Observations:
- When it's raining I don't want to shift in the morning (although a full bladder is a good incentive!)
- A BlastMatch and a small bit of WetFire tinder make a really easy, one-handed way of lighting a hexy stove in the rain. I've really bonding with this - all I need to remember is that the sparks are a heck of a lot hotter than a normal firesteel and I'll be OK
- A poncho might be a good way to enter/exit bivy when raining
ditchfield
29-06-2004, 20:11
Well, I was at Glastonbury watching tents, marquees and Stages flying !
It lashed it down! they cordoned off the Dance tent as its hundreds of tons of canvas looked like it may become a parachute at any minute.
I watched the football with 90000 others, more than there were in the stadium itself ! ROOOOOOOOOONEEEEEEEEEEEY went on for days.
My goretex proved invaluable. It did get wet on the inside, but compared to the £20 berghaus non breathable jacket it was heaven. My ex army DPM goretex leggings worked a treat, my friends abandoning theirs from excess "Betty Swollocks" :wink:
I danced till dawn in me wellies :-D
Rich
I was also there and also wore DPM goretex trouser along with Brasher hiking boots. These kept me completely dry through all the mud and rain. I also wore my everyday cheap breathable jacket which didn't keep me completely dry but most of the time I had a fleece on underneath so I was fine. We lost our tent to the weather on Wednesday morning when setting up. All guyropes snaped off the tent and after a struggle the tent finally ripped open. We had a spare though and that worked fine.
Forget the music, go to Galstonbury to test out your kit :rolmao:
Roving Rich
30-06-2004, 10:22
:-D Damn right, the site resembled the Somme in places. And if we had had a blizzard we could have tested all extremes !
I used a my camera bag on a shoulder strap and the belt (stops it bouncing around) Combined with a gasmask bag on the belt or a rocket pack (side pocket) on a yoke. its a good configuration , and coped admirabley with the jumping up and down for 6 hours test, sqeezing through the crowd of 140 000, and staying out of the way in the confined loos ( :-x ). It kept my kit - coat, jumper, spare lens, water bottle and BEER :-D safe and dry.
It was great fun and i was sorry to leave.
Ditchfield - did you find the Bushcraft stand ?
I also saw an excellent flint knapping demo (Ray had visited him for filming the new series,making a dugout canoe then paddling the Somerset levels followed by an indian birchbark canoe in the States), then there was the clay cob oven (great bread :biggthump ) timber framing, log cabin (the tree pirates, also responsable for the scorpion sculpture),a fabulous pole lathe demo (3 or 4 of em about tho), atrocious hurdle maker if Jack had created such a crappy hurdle he'd have burned it ! Bicycle powered billhook sharpening, wood turning and of course soundsystems.....
There is just so much to see and do !
Anyone wanna see the photos ?
Anyone wanna see the photos ?
Of course!! :-D
Sounds like you had a great time!
ditchfield
02-07-2004, 19:27
Ditchfield - did you find the Bushcraft stand ?
I also saw an excellent flint knapping demo (Ray had visited him for filming the new series,making a dugout canoe then paddling the Somerset levels followed by an indian birchbark canoe in the States), then there was the clay cob oven (great bread :biggthump ) timber framing, log cabin (the tree pirates, also responsable for the scorpion sculpture),a fabulous pole lathe demo (3 or 4 of em about tho), atrocious hurdle maker if Jack had created such a crappy hurdle he'd have burned it ! Bicycle powered billhook sharpening, wood turning and of course soundsystems.....
There is just so much to see and do !
Anyone wanna see the photos ?
I missed all of that :-(. I saw some great bands and musicians though :-D.
bushwacker bob
02-07-2004, 22:03
I went out to deliberately light a fire in the rain,just to see if I could. I approached it logically.I found some dead hawthorn branches on the underside of the canopy and stripped the bark off. I then made the fire with kindling made from split hawthorn on top off feather sticks made from some more of the hawthorn with a few bits of birch bark stuffed in the 'feathers'. More birch bark as tinder. I laid my hat over it to keep it as dry as possible while I prepared the kindling and kept Birch bark dry until last minute. It was torrential but the fire went a treat. buy piling it high the larger logs on top umbrellered the flames underneath.
The General
03-07-2004, 23:31
What system did you use to light it?
bushwacker bob
04-07-2004, 01:16
system? ferro rod and buffed birch bark
Hi, As a newbie here (a lurker for the past few weeks if the truth be told) I thought I might introduce myself with my experiences of the last 48 hours. At 47 yrs old, asthmatic and office-bound five days a week, I of course decided to head for the Pentland Hills near to my home in Scotland, to prove to myself I am not past it. Don't worry, I read everything I could on the subject, from bushcraft and navigation to first aid and bunny-butchering (which my wife says I am not allowed to do - the only thing she would be happy with me snaring, cooking and eating is a wild Pot Noodle.) I bought all the kit I thought I would need, and then a LOT more.
Rucksack Karrimor Panther 65L
Walking boots (Karrimor Cheviot KSB)
Swiss Army Knife
Swiss Army Tool
Tent (LightWave T1 Trek)
Sleeping mat
Sleeping bag (Argos-warmest I could find)
Firesteels (Scout and Army models)
Cotton wool balls (told you I had been lurking here!)
Aluminium cooking set
Plastic Bags
Plastic Poncho
Fleece
Coat
Woolly Jumper
Thick quilted shirt
Socks-Thick and woolly (a bit like me) :-)
Compasses 2 Silva Ranger 15TDCL and Silva type4
Map (OS Explorer of Pentland Hills)
Binoculars - Cheap pocket version
Digital Camera - Had this already
Ray Mears Essential Bushcraft Book
Books on navigation and survival (too many to count)
Small axe / hammer / entrenching tool combined (total waste of money)
Hex stove and 1 pack tablets
Pot Noodles and various cup a soups, pasta dehydrated gunge etc.,
20L Water carrier
LED head torch
Life Raft and flares (only kidding)
--------------------------------
And so kitted out, I headed off. My first mistake was to not get the rucksack properly adjusted. As a result, as I write this, my back is killing me. Next mistake was to overestimate my abilities and fitness. Once upon a time, I would have lugged that stuff up a mountain with my teeth, but those days are long gone I'm afraid, but I don't remember getting older, and so I set off at a pace beyond my ability. I got to the top of the first hill and had to rest (for 'rest',read collapse on the ground, wheezing and spluttering) for a while. Then, due to the weight in the pack, couldn't get it back on properly, or stand up. This delay meant a little more 'rest' and I carried on, consulting my map and compass every few minutes (good excuse for a breather). Oh, did I mention it was raining? This was unusual rain, it came down sideways. I couldn't breathe properly, and was sweating cobs because the plastic poncho is not breathable and made it feel like I was walking uphill in a frogman's suit. Then a downhill bit.....
After three hours of walking (ha! walking!) , I reached a fairly flat bit of ground, near some trees, near a small spring which feeds a stream with lead to a reservoir (I read somewhere this would be OK for drinking). The rain had gone off, and I thought right, this will do and proceeded to set up tent. Did I mention I had never set up a tent in my life before?. Actually it went up OK and fairly quickly, so I was feeling quite proud of myself.
Unpacked everything, and made myself a cup a soup on the hex stove. Read some of the Ray Mears book (especially interesting was the part on how to pace yourself - a bit late thanks mate!).
Slept - was too warm in sleeping bag and had to open it up to cool down.
In the morning, 5:00 am or there abouts, I woke up, had a coffee and decided to build a campfire.
Well I had already tried out the firesteel at home, and was getting quite good at setting fire to cotton wool, dandelion seed heads, tissue papers and cigarette papers, so how hard could it be up here?
Went into the trees to collect kindling and firewood. With all the rain, everything was pretty soggy, but managed to collect what I thought was enough.
Tried to start fire in force ten gale (well maybe not force 10, but it felt like it). Everything blew out, blew away and I was getting nowhere fast. Eventually managed, after erecting makeshift wind shelter from sticks and plastic bags and skinning my knuckle on the stones I laid the base on. Yeah, had a campfire. Nothing could stop me now. I had survived a night on the hills, slept warm and now had FIRE!. Decided to celebrate with dehydrated pasta stuff as breakfast. Trudged to spring, filled (well not quite 20L - too heavy) water carrier. Went back to 'camp' and put water on fire to boil. Took my eye of it for a second, bowl tipped over and put fire out. Back to square one. "Think of this as a learning experience" I told myself as I repeated the wood collection and knuckle skinning.
At last, boiling water! - Put in pasta stir as per instructions, waited five minutes and voila! - Pasta with lots of black burnt woody smoky bits in it. MMmmm!!!!. I ate it anyway.
Later on tried the hex stove, found it difficult to actually achieve a 'boil' so warm coffee would have to do.
Then the rain came back, and the thunder, and the lightning. They brought their friend the hail. Hailstones? - This is mid July for pete's sake.
I watched double lightning flashes hitting the hills in the distance and watched the dark clouds (waaay over there..) and marvelled at the majesty and power of nature. But then, what's this? Oh, it's moving this way. Mmm.
Sat in tent. Storm passed. Passed directly over my tent to be precise. Decided that the storm was perhaps natures method of natural selection and that newbies on their own who don't know any more than they have read in some books and on some websites are not the most likely candidates for 'survival of the fittest'.
Rain stopped. But dark clouds gathering again.
Discretion being the better part of valour, figured the sensible thing would be to try to head back before dark. Took three quarters of an hour to wrestle sleeping back back into it's stuff sack. How did they get all that in there in the first place?. Packed away all my stuff, Put all rubbish in plastic bag to take with me (leave no trace right?) buried embers and soggy remains of fire.
Packed tent and loaded up rucksack again. Still too heavy / badly adjusted - I couldn't understand it - I had eaten pasta and cup a soup, why wasn't it any lighter?
Rain started again. To cut a long story short (if you've read this far, congratulations) repeated the stop-start-stop journey back home, poncho on, in the rain, not breathing, aching, tired, sore. Took a little longer going back because I took Ray's advice and paced myself.
Home at 10:30 pm. Shower. Bed. Tent drying and bootwaxing can wait till tomorrow........ZZZZzzzzzzz.
This has not put me off. Rather it has shown me what I did wrong. (I hear voices from amongst the more experienced of you saying "everything"). For my next trip I know now that:
1: Get rucksack adjusted so it's more comfortable to carry.
2: Think about lightening load.
3: Remember I am not as young as I think I am.
4: Practise fire-lighting some more.
5: Read up on cooking outdoors. (Without the black bits).
6: Read more on navigation, although to be fair to myself, I didn't get lost, knew where I was all the time and that included all the 'declination' stuff.
7: Throw away stupid axe / combo tool. (First hit, the head flew off and nearly brained me).
8: Get more Hex blocks.
9: Be prepared, expect some rain to come sideways at you.
10: Lots, lots more (hoping some of you will chip in with advice here).
Well, thats about it, thank you for staying with me, (those who did) and any advice, or help for my next trip will be very much appreciated.
Regards,
Justin Time
04-07-2004, 22:53
Hi Hogan :wave:
great first post!
you'll learn a lot by just trying stuff the way that you did, although I'm wondering whether it would be easier trying to learn it in smaller chunks..... Even a couple of hours walk during the day can provide a chance for practising fire making for example. That way you can read the book, then try it out and then go home and look at the book again. I find I rarely take those books out with me now, although plant ID books etc take their place. Did you need all those clothes?
I'm close enough to your age to know that fitness plays a big part, (OK lack of fitness plays a big part) At the moment I probably wouldn't want to cover a lot of ground on multi-day hillwalks with a big pack, need to get my base level back up. Pottering about my local woods is great for practising skills but no good for the aerobic exercise.
Sounds like a winning weekend to me!
It's more fun if there are problems to overcome :)
Roving Rich
05-07-2004, 09:59
:biggthump Well done Hogan. Sounds like quite an adventure and against the odds. It only gets easier from there ! Ditching that trenching tool has saved a few pounds from your pack, which will inturn save the strain on your back. I wonder if it is the amount of pack weight that you are carrying causing your discomfort ? especially if you are not used to it. Still its best to carry more than you need and stay safe, than cut corners and take risks.
Glad you enjoyed it, and i hope the sun shines on you next time.
Well done
Rich
yep! sounds like a cracking weekend.
apart from that, what justin time said.
bushcraft is where you find it. on a walk in the park watching birds, plant recognition in a layby by a burger van, a day/afternoon hike with a tiny open fire and a cup of tea. it doesn't have to be a major expedition. thuogh that would be cool too. :super:
cheers, and.
plant recognition in a layby by a burger van
Just buy a burger mate! ;)
Seriously though, I agree with you 100%. Bushcraft is something you do when you you get the chance to. There are plenty of opportunities on even the smalled outdoor jaunts to hone skills!
:chill:
Welcome Hogan! :wave:
Fantastic story! Way to go! (Very brave for a first time out, but it is an effective way to learn what you need!)
Remember you don't always need to go on an expedition to practice your skills. One tip that I've found useful is to get proficient with the skills in your back garden (if you have one). For example, I regularly practice firelighting in the wind and rain in my garden where it's easy to go indoors to get dry and warmed up again, so that next time I'm out for real and the rain is thrashing down, my hands 'remember' how to do it (even if my brain is wishing I was back in front of the telly!) and it takes the stress out of the situation. :-D
Many thanks for all the kind words of encouragement and advice. At least no-one has laughed at me (yet :wink: ).
I do agree that my pack was very heavy (for me anyway), but it was not just the weight which gave me problems, it was the combination of weight, bad packing, and ill-adjusted straps etc that gave me most of the grief. (And the black bits in the pasta).
I will certainly be much better prepared (mentally if not physically yet) for my next outing.
Before then though, I intend to act on the good advice I have been given, and organise much smaller, closer to home (perhaps out of the back garden) 'practise' sessions.
I appreciate all the advice and tips I can get, and I may as well say right up front, I intend to make a nuisance of myself, pestering you all with questions you have probably been asked a thousand times before, -- you know the kind that makes you roll your eyes back and sigh -- in order to make future trips, big and small, as easy as possible.
I'm not sure where I heard or read it first, but I recollect someone saying "if you're roughing it, you're doing it wrong".
So, as a taster of the sort of stupid questions I am storing up, can anyone give me step by step instructions on the use of firesticks. I know what they look like and how to make them, but am unsure of what happens next... do you use the firesteel to ignite them (seems kinda difficult when there are what would appear to be more instantly flammable materials (cotton wool etc), or do you use them as kindling rather than tinder, and light them from the small tinder flame, then apply them to the heavier twigs etc?
And finally, after my boots had dried out, I brushed the mud from them, took out my tin of wax and thought "now what?". Am I looking for a high-gloss military - see your face in them sort of shine, or rather a semi -dull sheen (which is how I've left them at the moment) and allow the wax to penetrate. I suppose the quick version of this question is 'to polish/gleam or not to polish/gleam'.
Again many thanks for your 'welcomes' and thanks in advance for your patience.
Regards,
So, as a taster of the sort of stupid questions I am storing up, can anyone give me step by step instructions on the use of firesticks. I know what they look like and how to make them, but am unsure of what happens next... do you use the firesteel to ignite them (seems kinda difficult when there are what would appear to be more instantly flammable materials (cotton wool etc), or do you use them as kindling rather than tinder, and light them from the small tinder flame, then apply them to the heavier twigs etc?
the feather stick is usually used as kindling rather than tinder, however if you make your curls thin enough and you manage to get the sparks from your firesteel into the base of the curls it will ignite but it takes practice
And finally, after my boots had dried out, I brushed the mud from them, took out my tin of wax and thought "now what?". Am I looking for a high-gloss military - see your face in them sort of shine, or rather a semi -dull sheen (which is how I've left them at the moment) and allow the wax to penetrate. I suppose the quick version of this question is 'to polish/gleam or not to polish/gleam'.
no need to polish them gleaming thats for militry parades only, use leather wax not polish
jamesdevine
06-07-2004, 10:58
First up well done Hogan :super: compared to some of my outings you have done pretty well and it is good to see you still very positive at the end off it.
It might be worth a while checking out one of the schools listed on the main webiste some of them do weekend intro courses that may give you a little head start or maybe attend one of the meet ups listed in the meeting section and learn from does learn them selves.
My adventure in the rain have been limited to some small tracking and plant rambles but I aim to get for an hour or so over the weekend as I found so interesting tracks in to local park and the rain is helping me alot.
James
the feather stick is usually used as kindling rather than tinder, however if you make your curls thin enough and you manage to get the sparks from your firesteel into the base of the curls it will ignite but it takes practice
I'll give that a try as soon as the skin grows back on my knuckles after using firesteel too close to the stone fire base I had.
no need to polish them gleaming thats for militry parades only, use leather wax not polish
It is wax I am using. But being a determined so-and-so, I figured if spent enough time and elbow-grease, I could get a shine on them. :-)
Your reply has saved me a lot of time and effort,
Many thanks