View Full Version : FAKed up
bushwacker bob
10-05-2004, 21:49
My other half does occupational Therapy for an old folks home.On a recent day out with them,one fell over and an ambulance was called as she cut her arm quite badly.The ambulance driver had sterastips(stick on stitches) on board but needed a doctor to put them on as Paramedics arn't allowed to. I then told my missus that i carry some in my FAK, she told me that if i put any on anyone but myself I could be in trouble.The reason being that if I applied them to a 3rd party and the wound was not properly cleaned,I could trap in an infection and be liable to be sued! the same thing applies if I give someone a paracetomol from my FAK and they have an allergic reaction,I would be liable.From now on collegues with a head ache can continue to suffer.They all know I have some and I have given out about half a dozen in the last 3 months! :shock: [/b]
I remember being at school with the worst headache i have ever felt, and asking the school nurse fora paracetomol and she wouldnt because i might be allergic! :evil:
Cheers,
Jake
bushwacker bob
10-05-2004, 22:12
:lol: :lol: waiting for those knives has given you another one! :wink:
Justin Time
10-05-2004, 22:14
I suspect the liability would only come about of you were professing some special knowledge or qualification, ie as a professional. Having the stuff and not knowing how to use it, or what the limitations might be, isn't too great though. Having the stuff might give the impression that you know what your doing so the victim might think you know best. Always a good idea to say to the person "I've got these, they'll probably help with this, but the risks are such and such...what do you want to do" Same goes with OTC meds, you're only acting as a resource.
Common law would give a defence of necessity, if you're acting to save a life, so you stick your minging headnet on a heavily bleeding wound to encourage clotting because it was the best thing you had, sure you might increase the risk of infection but's better than bleeding to death. Would your steristrips come into that category. or are you just saying to the person, these'll hold the wound together till you can get to casualty?
C_Claycomb
10-05-2004, 22:24
Slightly off topic, but here goes.
In the US (specifically Kentucky) anyone born after about 1975 who wants to hunt has to pass a Hunters Education Course. That applies even if you are non resident to the USA. Fortunately for me the did the course on videos and I only had to find an examiner while over there.
Anyway, part of the course talked about first aide and a couple things struck me as bizarre. One was that if you found a person in difficulties you had to ask them if they wanted your help, having told them your level of training. If they say no, you can't help, just have to stand and watch. When they pass out, then you can help. If they come around again, you have to stop!!!
Second thing, you mustn't tell someone that "They will be alright". You aren't qualified to say one way or the other and if you get it wrong you could cause emotional trauma.
In either case you could end up sued.
I know the yanks love their legal games, but this seemed like taking it too far, but apparently not, they were dead serious!
Crazy world isn't it!!
Crazy world isn't it!!Don't worry Chris! It'll be alright! :lol:
Thanks for sharing that - had no idea. Sadly, it'll probably be the same in the UK soon. :roll:
Justin Time
10-05-2004, 23:44
<snipped> if you found a person in difficulties you had to ask them if they wanted your help, having told them your level of training. If they say no, you can't help, just have to stand and watch. When they pass out, then you can help. If they come around again, you have to stop!!!
that's pretty much how things stand in the UK as well, we all have the right to say what we want to happen to us, even if to the person watching it seems illogical. In the NHS we're big into informed consent, and watch the headlines when people are deprived of it. Under common law in England and Wales even to touch someone ( or make them think you're going to touch them) could be common assault without the person's permission
waiting for those knives has given you another one!
But this time i can just go into my medi cupboard!
Under common law in England and Wales even to touch someone ( or make them think you're going to touch them) could be common assault without the person's permission
I seriously think things are getting ridiculous with all these rules. I sometimes get so frustrated by all these things that i wonder if i should just go live in the jungle and never see a human again, that way i wouldnt know about these governments and their ideas! But then again, i wouldnt be able to come online! So maybe not. :wink:
Jake
stuart f
11-05-2004, 10:21
Whatever happened to common sense! pc gone crazy.
If i had been injured in some way i would rather have someone say your going to be ok,rather than saying "i,d better not say your going to be fine just in case i could be sued" what a moral booster that would be.
CHEERS STUART F,
I thought they'd changed the law regarding this?
Due to so many people (even WITH valid 1st aid certificates), saying 'You can bleed to death mate. I am NOT going to be sued by your family!', they were supposed to be putting somethign thru parliament to the effect that if you did your best to help someone and things went wrong, unless they could PROVE that you deliberately cocked up, you would be immune from prosecution as you had volunteered to help them.
As for this country becoming too much like the 53rd state, all I can do is shake my head and fill out another insurance form to cover me in the event of being prosecuted for being proud to be British...
A nurse friend told me a few years ago that if she walked past an accident and didn't help she could be sued, due to her being a qualified nurse!
Shocking, although I take it with a slight pinch of salt!
stuart f
11-05-2004, 11:26
well it,s a case of, you,re damned if you do and damned if you don,t, in this country.
A sad reflection on the society we live in today, everthing is money oriented.CHEERS STUART F.
Stew,
My girlfriend is anurse and she tells me this is true, you cant walk past an icident and not help, your obliged by law as you are a medical professional.
It's funny I cut myself at work the other week and looked in the FAK for a plaster, there were none. I went to admin and told them they were out and they said plasters were'nt allowed on FAK's any more as people may have an allergic reaction to the Adhesive and sue?? :shock: I countered this by saying "Could the same person not sue if they got an infection due to the employer not supplying suitable wound dressings?? :shock:
THAT got em thinking MWUHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAA :twisted:
I went to admin and told them they were out and they said plasters were'nt allowed on FAK's any more as people may have an allergic reaction to the Adhesive and sue??
So what was in the FAK?
stuart f
11-05-2004, 13:37
Nice one Dave. I got to thinking how i,d like to take all these people who think of these stupid rules and dump them into the wilderness and let Mother nature drop a bucket load of reality into their lap. Who would they sue then? CHEERS STUART F.
:twisted:
Its bloody ludicrous!
You can't have plasters because of the adhesive.
Zinc oxide tape and paste are banned because they cause adverse reactions in a few people.
You can't have apririn or paracetamol for the same reason.
One place I worked told me no creams liek savlon coz someone had had a reaction.
No forceps (tweezers) or scissors as they are dangerous weapons.
OK, what's left?
A trinagular bandage, a crepe bandage - no hang on htey can be too tight and coz a tourniquet effect.
So, one 1st aid kit contains - one triangular bandage, one leaflet and er, a lot of empty space!
(We really need a 'shaking head in bemusement' smilie...)
stuart f
11-05-2004, 14:31
Its getting to the stage where by the time everybody decides who,s going to help you regardless of the fear of being sued and then deciding what to give to help you,you,re already dead,then theyll say oh well at least he won,t be sueing. And then a voice says at the back "who,s going to inform his relatives" the answer comes back" not me i could be sued".
Where does all this cr*p end cos i despair.
CHEERS
STUART F.
bushwacker bob
11-05-2004, 15:49
having read your replies, the legalities of common sense are even more FAked up than I originally thought. :banghead: but if I did this, no one would help for fear of the legal consequences! ARRRGH
having read your replies, the legalities of common sense are even more FAked up than I originally thought. :banghead: but if I did this, no one would help for fear of the legal consequences! ARRRGH
What is this 'common sense'? Think I vaguely remember hearing about a long time ago...
But don't worry, I'm sure we'd help a fellow BCUKer. After making you sign over your savings, your gold watch, signed an indemnity form in quintuplet (in your won blood to make it binding in both earthly AND unearthly courts...) :twisted:
My girlfriend is anurse and she tells me this is true, you cant walk past an icident and not help, your obliged by law as you are a medical professional.
"Duty of care". Goes a bit further than just medics, I'm afraid... Diving instructors are a bit wary of the whole thing thanks to our litigious society. Effectively, if I see a diving incident, I am supposed to give assistance if it is safe & possible. Where the duty of care ends, I dunno - I've got rescue training (diving specific), first aid training and so on and so forth...
Justin Time
11-05-2004, 22:58
with respect I think we might be getting a bit carried away here and also confusing what Chris said about America with the situation in the UK. I'm sure that there are people out there worried about doing/supplying stuff in case they get sued, but I suspect that they are victims of media hype and poor advice rather than acting rationally.
Firstly the consent versus common assault part of things, this is very old stuff, part of common law in England and Wales ( can't remember how Scots law deals with it) So the idea that a legally competent adult can choose to refuse treatment is long established in law, nothing to do with any current or recent government. There are some changes working their way through parliament now in relation to the " body parts" scandal. Presumably as a first aider you're not going to be keeping body parts for any purpose :shock: .
It makes good sense practically as well as legally to ask the person if they're happy for you to carry out a particular procedure or use a product. Decisions about what you should do always carry a risk/benefit analysis: "I've got this tape to hold the dressing on so we can protect the wound from contamination as well as help to stop the bleeding, do you know if you're allergic to it? No, OK there's always a chance you might be, are you happy for me to proceed? " seems pretty sensible to me. Obviously your unconscious person can't give consent, you just have to do your best.
Secondly the issue of duty of care. Registered Nurses, like me, have professional rather than legal obligation, ie I might be struck off the register rather than sent to jail/fined if I don't provide the care.
Here's the form of words used by our professional regulators, the NMC:
"In an emergency, in or outside the work setting, you have a professional duty to provide care. The care provided would be judged against what could reasonably be expected from someone with your knowledge, skills and abilities when placed in those particular circumstances."
I think this second sentence would probably apply to anyone responding to an emergency, but remember you're not expected to put yourself in danger.
This area of law might appear vague but my feeling is that actually does expect us to behave with common sense, no point in preparing to an emergency tracheotomy with your SAK, if you've only read about it once on a website. It might help to think of yourself being physically incapacitated and in need of first aid finding yourself at the mercies of some well meaning but not well informed passerby. " Honestly, I don't think I'm going to need a tourniquet for that cut....."
I did a first aid course a few weeks back, outdoors rescue type thing, anyway basically you cant give out headache tablets as a first aider incase anyone is allergic, but, big but, apparently if you dropped your packet of tablets and that person else found them, then its a different matter! I remember being a first aider at work, and not being able to give out paracetemols either, though my office mate, totally unqualified was allowed to. Odd, but I suppose it serves a purpose.
Paul
Stew,
My girlfriend is anurse and she tells me this is true, you cant walk past an icident and not help, your obliged by law as you are a medical professional.
I work in an ICU for a living, same job - and she's spot on. We could loose our licence if we were spotted walking past an incident without offering aid. Funny thing, and I bet your GF will confirm this, the situation regarding getting sued for malpractice, has got so many professionals freaked out, that many of those I work with tell me they would hurry past an incident, hoping no one could ID them as a health care professionals (or claim they were under the "anfluence of incahol occifer" and so absolve themselves). A very sad comment about the state of society.
Now I'm really confused ... should I (a member of the public with zero training) try to help an injured or sick person or not? Done it in the past without thinking about it .. but would defintely hesitate after reading this!
I've thought of getting some proper first aid training but am reconsidering that too now, because I'm getting the feeling you're more liable the more training you have...
:?:
I went to admin and told them they were out and they said plasters were'nt allowed on FAK's any more as people may have an allergic reaction to the Adhesive and sue??
So what was in the FAK?
Bloomin dressings the size of a field dressing.....Great if you've had yer leg blown off, but not the best for a cut finger..... :-?
Then again.... What if someone was allergic to bandages?? :shock: They'd really be up da creek !! :-(
Now I'm really confused ... should I (a member of the public with zero training) try to help an injured or sick person or not? Done it in the past without thinking about it .. but would defintely hesitate after reading this!
Yes you should if you feel you could. The legal aspect applies to professionals (...and to a certain extent, firstaiders etc). As a civillian with no training, you are not professing any professional knowledge or duty, you're simply helping a fellow being in any way you are able. If you screw up and do harm, that's more a matter for your concience, rather than the law. That's not to say you cant be sued, it's just you cant be sued for professional negligence, so the complainant would have to look to other laws. As a civillian, your chances of being successfully sued are almost vnon existant, unless you did something clearly supid. On the other hand, professionals are prime targets. No one is a walking encyclopedia of knowledge, and there are holes in every professionals knowledge. Our fear, is that placing ourselves in a situation where we take 100% responsibility and 100% accountability without the backing of a hospital system, is asking for a law suit.
I've thought of getting some proper first aid training but am reconsidering that too now, because I'm getting the feeling you're more liable the more training you have...
:?:
That is absolutely correct.
Interestingly, what we can do is this...
Q: "hello, I am a professional nurse, but helping you here is outside of my sphere of professional competance. I can however, offer you help as a lay person. Is this acceptable to you?"
A: "arrrgggghhhhhhhhh, yes, yes, just stop the blood comming out..."
Lunacy innit?
Justin Time
12-05-2004, 19:35
I must admit I'd find it hard to walk past some-one in need of help, and I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about being sued. I know we are in a more litigation driven society but I'm not sure how much of the fear is media hype, and how much is based on actual incidents, not the " my mate's friends cousin got sued..."
Being a mental health nurse I can add an interesting twist to Martyn's Q&A. "I'm a mental health nurse so don't know much about this kind of stuff, we can talk about how this feels if you want though....
. "I'm a mental health nurse so don't know much about this kind of stuff, we can talk about how this feels if you want though....
:rolmao: :ekt:
RAPPLEBY2000
06-06-2004, 22:15
:soapbox: all the health and saftey, Politically correctness, fear of being sued, and sueing good samaritans is rubbish.
i can see upon the horizon times when the people will rebel,
it seems everyday we are taken forward with technology to see the world and experience it and just as quickly barriers are put up and laws put in place!
with out being grumpy and saying "how good the old days were", the "old days" weren't that long ago!
late 80's?
as i say, people are going to break laws that are riddiculous, for example i cannot video my children in a school play incase a pedophile gets hold of the video for their pleasure???????
what?
:banghead:
i'm going to teach my kids the same stuff i did, and never came to any harm!
i work at an outdoor activity center, we have to cover ourselves everywhere, it's a real drag and stops us working to our best ability due to constant fear of being sued!
oh bugger! mabey i'll just move to america and become a lumberjack! :roll:
congratulations on the new addition! how's mum doing?
cheers, and.
RAPPLEBY2000
06-06-2004, 23:07
:-D absolutly fine!
a birth on gas and air! phew! don't do that in a hurry!
jessica is fine 7lb 4, very little and cute!
suddenly our house has been covered in pink stuff!, clothes, cards, ect!
my 3 year old loves her!
Miriam my wife is fine, worked hard and is now resting!
I'm very proud!
Well done mate, a fine example, ours was due 8 days ago and still no sign :cry: I dare say it will be soon though, one way or another!!
MartiniDave
07-06-2004, 09:47
Congratulations on the new arrival!
Best wishes too all concerned :-D :-D :-D
Dave
Well done Miriam ! Did she offer to share the entonox ?
Congratulations, Alick
For several years now I have acted on childrens camps for a woodcraft charity as on site First Aid staff and am often responsible for 70+ people for up to 4 weeks in remote areas around the British Isles, I feel duty bound to regulary top up my various first aid qualifications and extend these. Every course discusses these issues and in the end, sadly and very depressingly I am faced with the fact that someday someone might sue me for trying to help! I hope that firm laws are introduced soon to prevent the steady swing towards the insanity of the american system as this serves no purpose whatsoever- I too know many GP's and health workers who will avoid assisting emergencies outside work for fear of being sued- incidently what cover can first aiders get against being sued?
Please stop the insanity!
:rant:
Blue Sky!
Jim.
last wodcraft camp I went on I ended up taking over in a first aid situation. it was an international affair and the kid I was helping didn't speak english. I'm know for treating head injuries with lots of blood (in this case a kid got wacked round the head with a cricket bat. At school (now left for study leave) I had issues with the first aid provisions, at what point do I insist on taking over from the school first aider
apparently the thing to do on the paracetamol frount, if you have some, someone needs some, and you do not have toe correct qualifications to administer them is to "drop" them on the floor (with out realising of course), then should the person in need "happen" to notice a stray packet on the floor they may administer them to themselvs at their own risk.
not sure that this would entiarly clear you from liability, but what the hay....
when I was doing the advanced first aid corse in St Johns there was a lot of talk about giving drugs to some people, namely thoughs who wee suspected of having a heart attack. crazy as it seems we could give them out but were advised not to and there was soe issue about not having them in our first aid kit anyway. the result was that we wer never quite sure if we were coverd if we gave them out and so nobody carried them about their person. Later I was on a duty where someone died of a heart attack. though we weren't the team covering that section of the event it still hit home. the man was about 40 and was doing a sponsored bike ride for a childrens charity and had his 10 year old nephew with him. I was asked by the orgonisers if we carried death certificates with us
RAPPLEBY2000
08-06-2004, 22:11
at the place i work kids are constantly getting stung by nettles,
so what is the most well known and ptracticed method of pain relief?
Dock leaves!
everyone knows that, the teachers and even the kids!
problem is, if a person turns out to be allergic to Dock then the person advising them will to coin a phrase "end up in the Dock"!
so when a sting occours, i first ask them what they would use, which of course they answer "dock" , at which point they try to find some, then make sure they are aware that "I did not tell them about dock!"
they ask why, i give a short lesson in legal responsibility and they quite rightly agree to the terms!
leaving me free form the Dock, and children that will either become polititions or lawers! :wink:
see if you can fit the word "dock" into text as much as i have! :roll:
bushwacker bob
08-06-2004, 22:51
congratulations and welcome to jessica youngest bushcrafter on the site :-D :-D :-D