View Full Version : Wounds.
Hi,
Was out the other day using my new knife and had a bit of an accident :oops: .
Sustained a nasty bleeding cut to the finger :shock: . I have done first aid many times and knew exactly what do do.
Of course I had no tissue and just had to use finger pressure to stop the bleeding. But as you might know from experience skin is very sticky and after ten minutes i took my finger away and the cut opened again.
Fair enough so i walked back to the car to my first aid kit...sorted in 1 minute.
My question is, what if there is no car and you have nothing to compress the wound to stop the bleeding. I was actually thinking I would have had a naster bleeding wound with nothing to clean it and nothing to cover it to keep out infection. Of course in an extreme case i Could have ripped a bit of my shirt etc but it was to good to rip :wink:
A bushcraft answer please.
Cheers and thanks for your interest.
falling rain
30-04-2004, 19:29
Quite simply. If you pick up ANY cutting you take your personal first aid kit with you..... It's as simple as that.
If you have a nasty enough wound i think your last thoughts would be the cost of a shirt. Still theres not much of an excuse not to have a basic first aid kit with you at all times. There is always plenty of natural materials to help bind a wound. if your bleeding that bad your priority must be to stem the flow let the nearest medical facility worry about infection etc.
There are more qualified people on here to give current advice.
not exactly bushcraft, more scouting, but I have used a hanky. I always carry two, an old scout thing I think.
It is important to carry a 1st aid kit though, even a simple one can be very useful. Mine goes in my billy, then whenever i cook, heat water, i then have the kit to hand, esp useful when hot water, fires and knives are out to get ya!
Paul
You could have used a piece of cord, by wrapping around/binding along the finger (not hard enough to totally cutt off blood flow, it's not a tourniqeut) you can reduce the blood flow to a degree where nature can take its course and allow the blood to coagulate.
As with most bleeds you can elevate the injured limb to a level above the heart, which should also reduce blood flow.
Control your breathing and stay calm, this will keep your heart rate lower keeping blood pressure levels low and reducing the blood flow.
In cold climates or near cold water ( icy preferably), if you subject the injured item to extreme cold there is a bodilly effect called peripheral shutdown (normally seen in shock) that causes the capiliaries and veins in extremities to be closed off.
Most people have seen this effect your hands get damn cold and it takes you ages to get the "BLOOD BACK INTO THEM".
These are a few suggestions.
In addition to items mentioned above, I have seen the following used as "bandage": leaves; plastic bags of assorted kinds; part of a leather belt; part of a nylon jacket; part of a nylon pack; bicycle innertube; waxed paper.
These were variously (more-or-less) held in place by: rubber bands; tape of all sorts (duct; electrical; paper); fishing line; belts; string; safety pins, regular pins, needles; aluminum foil; wire; nylon stocking.
All this inventiveness could have been avoided if the good advice above about first aid kits had been known to, and followed by, those involved.
I never leave the house without a first aid kit and carry a pretty substantial one in the car.
Yeah I appreciate that I should have had a first aid kit.
Anyway all of your suggestions are excellent. The point was natural resources e.g yarrow ca be used to stem blood flow for example, I think that wa from Ray Mears book.
Anyway I also heard about a fella using superglue to glue a cut shut, apparently superglue was developed by the U.S military for use in vietnam for that exact purpose. Saying that I wouldnt use it just in case it was all B.S.
Cheers lads
There is a lot of information about using super glue etc for cuts over on british blades first aid thread.
For small cuts, and less serious bleeding wounds, common plantain is good. The leaves staunch the wound, and can be wrapped around and held in place like a plaster.
I never leave home without a basic first aid kit. If I'm out for longer than a day, I take a full kit.
Does anyone else secrete items of kit (first aid, nav, and fire...the odd packet of mints et;) around thier pockets, and pack, in addition to thier main kit? My father, and grandfather always did this, and I've always done the same.
Brynglas
02-05-2004, 14:32
Yeah I appreciate that I should have had a first aid kit.
Anyway all of your suggestions are excellent. The point was natural resources e.g yarrow ca be used to stem blood flow for example, I think that wa from Ray Mears book.
Anyway I also heard about a fella using superglue to glue a cut shut, apparently superglue was developed by the U.S military for use in vietnam for that exact purpose. Saying that I wouldnt use it just in case it was all B.S.
Cheers lads
For relatively small, CLEAN wounds superglue is fine, but it is vital that the wound is clean and free from debris before the edges of the wound are held together and the superglue applied. This has been an old standby of many climbers for a number of years and superglue is widely used in A&E Departments instead of stitches as it leaves less of a scar, so there's no problem from the glue itself, just a risk of infection if things aren't cleaned properly.
Better luck next time :-?
gurushaun
02-05-2004, 15:36
If you are wearing trousers then rather than rip your shirt, rip out part of one of the pockets, then the garment is still useable and its an easy repair when you get home.
Cheers
Shaun
Of course you could allways use your undies, if they are clean of course.
Although removing them might be a problem if your in a popular area.
The superglue thing is very interesting, I actually thought it might be poisonous, what if it gets into teh blood stream for example might it cause a blood clot to form in a dangerous place?
I climb and could have done with some superglur yesterday as I got a bit of a gash on my knuckle.
Cheers
Superglue must be safe. My 14 month old flat haired retriever has recently had a tumor removed from his groin. It reqiured a lot of internal stitching, and about 20 on the outside. He's a very active mutt, and despite keeping him indoors, and as docile as possible, the stitches would pull, and open up. After the second time the vet sealed along the external stitching with super glue. It worked a treat.
gurushaun
02-05-2004, 16:12
The Medics do use a special type, Martyn mentioned it in one of his threads (he is a medical professional). But I've seen the normal stuff used BUT as with any procedure which closes a wound clenliness is everything and its best left open but covered until a pro can look at it.
Cheers
Shaun
The professional "super glue" is called dermabond. Over here it requires a doctors prescription. I personally would NEVER use it on anything more than a paper cut, something small, not deep, and clean. I'm not about to replace sutures with it. It works great in a sterile clinical situation, but out in the woods I can't see myself using it too much. I've been using myself as a guinea pig to test it for the last few months to see what kind of comfort level I have with it.
As far as wound closure in the field, well, it depends on your experience level. First things first, direct pressure. It doesn't really matter if you use a bandage, a piece of shirt, or just your hand. Most of the time direct pressure (and elevation) will stop all but the most extreme bleeding. If you take your hand off and it's still bleeding, then it didn't clot. Do it again. If you do that a couple times and it still didn't clot it's time to consider sliding along the continuum. (Depending on total blood loss, it may be time to move along sooner) Direct pressure, elevation and cold, pressure points, splints, then at the very last resort touniquets. I would only use a tourniquet if the bleeding is life threatening. Chances are that when you get to medical help, they will amputate a portion of whatever appendage the TQ was applied to.
If you're worrying about the wound after the bleeding has stopped, then it's a totally different treatment. You WILL get many different opinions. My personal advice? Leave it out in the open, suture if warranted, and move on. The thing is, if you use something like superglue, dermabond, even pine sap, you're not only sealing out infection, you're also sealing in any existing beasties. Not good! There are times, for me at least, where sealing off a wound would be beneficial however. Small lacerations to the hands and feet are an example. They seem to split open every time you reach into your pockets, brush against something, or grab onto something, or move. In those instances I like to cover them up, just for convenience.
I have no idea what plants are available on that side of the world. It's important to consider what type of enviornment you'll be in and how far from medical help you'll be. :-D
the naughty boy
03-05-2004, 10:24
superglue was developed soley to patch up soldiers in vietnam.this is referred to in the film dog soldiers by the way.
people wonder why it sticks skin so well? lol thats what it was made to do!!
superglue was developed soley to patch up soldiers in vietnam.this is referred to in the film dog soldiers by the way.
people wonder why it sticks skin so well? lol thats what it was made to do!!
Superglue was invented by Dr. Harry Coover, Phd Chemistry, during WW II and was first commecially sold in the U.S. in the 1950's. It is an "urban legend" that it was first developed for medical use in Vietnam, although a more suitable form was developed for medical applications and was used in Vietnam.
Yup, superglue was originally developed to be a type of clear gun sight.
Again, I wouldn't use superglue or dermabond to seal up any wounds unless you know EXACTLY what you're doing.
the naughty boy
04-05-2004, 10:22
well there ya go! learn something new everyday.sometimes its usefull too! :roll:
Dermabond and superglue are similar but not the same. Superglue is ethyl-cyanoacrylate while Dermabond is 2-octyl-cyanoacrylate. the reason for the differnce is int he way that these glues work. They stick to things by taking small molecules and making them into bigger chains through a process called polymerization. This process is exothermic, which is chemist talk for giving out heat.
Dermabond isn't as fast and vigorous as Superglue (taking 45 - 60 secs to cure, compared to a few seconds) so less heat is given off. So, the upshot is that you can use Superglue, but it can get hot so get ready for the ouch!
Another thing to bear in mind is that neither should be put too deep because they cannot be absorbed by the skin ... so don't put too much in there!
I wish I'd had some Dermabond when I had to fix 007's hand after his 'axe-ident'. He wanted me to use regular superglue but I chickened out ...
As well as the plaintain already mentioned, one VERY old method of dealing with minor cuts is to use lichen as a pad (apperently it has an anti-septic effect?) and cover the wound with cobwebs. We all know how sticky those things are. Cobwebs were the original band-aid, so even if your are caught out without a FAK, you can still treat basic injuries in the wild.
I use Histoacryl tissue adhesive in casualty quite a lot, especially for children. It smells like superglue, but it's blue. It certainly does not replace sutures - large wounds, or those over joints are often best sutured.
You put it on the wound surface, not into the wound itself.
The trial evidence shows that the rate of wound breakdown is slightly higher with tissue adhesive compared to suturing.
Other good options for wound closure include Leukostrips/steristrips and, for scalp wounds, tying the hair on each side of the wound together.
Of course, the most important point about incised wounds is proper assessment to exclude injury to important structures (ie tendons, vessels and nerves) and proper cleansing. That matters more than how you close the wound.
Well I stand by to be flamed here but .....
While I 100% agree that a first aid kit is only common sense if you're setting out to do some serious cutting or heading more than a couple of hours out, I definately see it as a convenience not a necessity on anything under a day.
Look at it like this: all that really matters on a day trip is being able to stop significant bleeding until you can get expert help. And be able to summon help if you break something along the way and get immobilised.
Plasters, antiseptics, etc just aren't that important. The only thing in a first aid kit that's likely to make a difference in a real emergency is something the size of a battlefield dressing or superglue - otherwise use the shirt ! (though the pocket lining trick is truly inspired).
My reasoning ? I carry a knife 18 hours a day 364 days out of 365, and use it almost every day. I don't and never will carry a first aid kit for more than a tiny fraction of this time. I also take far more cuts - invariably small, sometimes deep - off my spyderco pocketknives and chisels than I do off my woodlore.
I have a tendency to faint at needles and a few minutes after cutting myself, so my personal recipe is suck and spit, let the thing bleed to try and clean it out, then get direct pressure on, elevate the hand and lie down before I fall down. On a little cut, patching comes later, if it was a big cut I'd be hollering and ripping my shirt without a second's thought !
Here's to living dangerously :-D
Here's to living dangerously :-D
Good'o mate. More room for the rest of us. :-)
I think it depends who you're with - I don't carry much of anything when out and about on my own, but if I've got small kiddies in tow (happening more and more as they get bigger, thankfully!) then I stock up, especially on antiseptic wipes and plasters. They always graze, cut, and otherwise injure themselves, and a quick wipe and a plaster makes them feel better! They then forget all about it and get into the next scrape...
the naughty boy
06-05-2004, 09:54
i agree with alick,i dont carry a first aid kit with me because i dont intend to get cut or injured,and i work with sharp edges all the time.familiarity and understanding of knives and axes go a long long way towards prevention of accidents.
if i carried everything i would need "just in case" something happened, id need a pack of donkeys with me.
as the guy from fantastic four says...flame on... :-D
and who can forget that line from predator..i aint got time to bleed... :wink:
i agree with alick,i dont carry a first aid kit with me because i dont intend to get cut or injured
. . . and who can forget that line from predator..i aint got time to bleed... :wink:
And the Murphy's are a band of optimists. :roll:
Let's hope your never unfortunate enough to see how wonderful hind sight is!
But as we're quoting movies - Obi Wan Kenobi, "Who's more foolish? The fool or the fool who follows the fool?"
I pretty much always carry a shell dressing with me ... just in case!
I believe that people should carry first aid kits when in the wilds, you may not use it on yourself, but you may have to use it on others.
I have dealt with injuries that have happened to other people more often than I have done with myself, "parang rash" and an axe wound that a friend recieved when limbing a tree after the storms in 1987 could not of been dealt with without a comprehensive first aid kit.
Murphy's law states that all that can go wrong will.
So by carrying a first aid kit you narrow the list of things that can go wrong, good health.
the naughty boy
07-05-2004, 11:42
aww well,intention is cause.
hey tahawk,have you ever had a nasty cut?
sometimes it goes with a pessimistic attitude toward life.
ever noticed how bright happy people are rarely ill or have accidents?well im in that band. :-D
its also true that the more attention you put on something ,the more likely it is to happen.
im not stopping anyone carrying a first aid kit,im fact there are some who i think it would be disastrous for them not to carry one! :wink:
i,ll let you know if it happens and you can all have a good laugh and make yourselves right at my expensive chaps,but dont hold your breath 8-)
[ps murphys law was made up by some people to explain their own screw ups and is little more than an excuse for irresponsibility :wink: ]
try catching an envelope droped between your finger and thumb by someone else..if you can catch it ,then well done...if you cant -carry a first aid kit.
good point leon about others though and justification indeed for the need to carry a kit .
also heres a tip...you,ve seen someone who has been cut trying to keep the injury away from everything? try gently touching things with the injured area,it brings the body back into communication with the injured area and helps the healing process.some people find the original pain flashes up then recedes rapidly and completly dissapears. :-D
I often find though that it's other people who find need for my FAK ... 8-)
falling rain
07-05-2004, 12:13
I really find it hard to believe that people with self professed experience using cutting tools would choose not to carry a first aid kit. Naughty boy: (i dont carry a first aid kit with me because i dont intend to get cut or injured,and i work with sharp edges all the time.familiarity and understanding of knives and axes go a long long way towards prevention of accidents.) Of course NO ONEintends to get cut or injured but accidents can happen even to the most experienced woodsman. I agree with Leon-1
If you pack any type of cutting tool, then you pack your first aid kit too.
What if you go out in the morning planning a day out in the woods, you cut yourself quite deeply. Many plants carry bacteria noticeably Blackthorn. The wound will need to be disinfected, dressed, and you can carry on with your day. A small FAK with some small dressings/plasters antiseptic cream is no weight at all to carry, and rather than being something someone with a pessimistic attitude would carry, I believe it would be carried by someone who was switched on with common sense.
Just my view on this
naughty boy.
when you have cut yourself bad can i have you kit? :-D
Many plants carry bacteria noticeably Blackthorn. The wound will need to be disinfected, dressed, and you can carry on with your day.
Quite right - blackthorn is not to be messed with because it is covered in an algae that turns septic easily. I knew someone who lost a finger due to it because the infection got so bad it had to be amputated ... all for a thorn! Carry a needle and tweezers with you for removal of thorns.
A small FAK with some small dressings/plasters antiseptic cream is no weight at all to carry ...
I agree, although I'm no fan of antiseptic creams and much prefer wipes or liquids.
Ultimately though, whether you carry a kit or not is none of my business, I ain't your mama! I do and have been glad of it (as have others who didn't have a kit with them). But that's just me ...
Does carrying a spare fuel can, mean you run out of petrol then NB??? :lol:
Wow, this thread has evolved (devolved?) a lot since I checked it last.
Naughtydude said:
sometimes it goes with a pessimistic attitude toward life.
ever noticed how bright happy people are rarely ill or have accidents?well im in that band.
:shock:
You're joking right?
I've seen plenty of bright happy people have accidents......bad and life changing accidents. I could certainly tell some examples if you'd like?
While I agree that a positive mental attitude will go a long way to prevent an illness, I can't see how it prevents accidents? :?:
Look, it's pretty simple. I'll respect anyone's opinion that they don't need a FAK with them in the woods. Even more, knowledge will carry you much farther than any first aid kit will. Those that carry neither in the woods often become statistics. Going on a long trip in the woods without a FAK is like going boating without a lifejacket. Sure you'll probably not need it, but if you do, you'll probably need it bad!
I often go to some pretty remote places, first aid may often be the only aid that a member of my party may recieve for days, and at very worst weeks. If someone is gong on a walk in the back yard, sure I don't see the need for a FAK if you can just walk home and call 112. I'd tailor the FAK around the activity.
the naughty boy
07-05-2004, 20:03
oooh i say ,calm down people,
seems my comments carried quite a bit of impact. :-D perhaps some recognise themselves in those comments but hey,its a free country and i gotta refer you to my signature :wink:
although im touched by your concern :rolmao:
wayne,you cant have my kit unless you have a FAK m8 :wink:
still trying to work out the fuel analogy :shock:
obviously if i did get a bad cut or axe wound im sure i could fashion something out of paracord and bogroll,two items i always carry,i also carry some ducktape and an army scrim scarf.there is a small tube of superglue in my survival tin too !
so whadda ya know...i have a first aid kit and didnt even know it.it just dosent contain elastoplast in nice paper wrappers.........
isnt bushcraft about survival and resourcefulness in the field with whats around you?.I.Q is measured by your ability to pose,percieve and resolve problems toward survival. :-D
the better your knowledge of bushcraft the less you have to carry
"carry less by knowing more"
however this does not include medical equipment!!!!!!!!!!
in the case of medical equipment the more you know the more carry
the argument that your so skilled with edged tools you dont need a medical kit is utter :***:
I met a man yesterday who makes roof beams for listed buildings by hand right from felling the oak to the finnished beam all with an axe
this is a rare skill in this country and there are not many people around who can walk into the woods with a felling axe and leave with a huge oak beam for a church roof
yet even with all his skill with an axe he always has a medical kit to hand
I respect your right to risk your life and limb if you choose too, but if you want to say this in a post i suggest you strongly recommend that no one else take your advice
the naughty boy
10-05-2004, 18:14
upon closer inspection of my signature you will find ,i think ,that i have covered that point :roll:
as for the axe man ....someone should save him a lot of time and buy him a chainsaw for christmas....the fool makes life harder for himself,he may be talented ,but that just makes him a talented fool 8-)
did you actually read my last post stewart? you know , the bit where i said that i might have enough stuff to cover an accident but just not in a nice wrapping? :tw:
upon closer inspection of my signature you will find ,i think ,that i have covered that point :roll:
as for the axe man ....someone should save him a lot of time and buy him a chainsaw for christmas....the fool makes life harder for himself,he may be talented ,but that just makes him a talented fool 8-)
Calling a lad who goes about with an axe a "fool" confirms it. You're up for the 2004 Darwin Awards. :roll:
he makes replacment beams and stuctures for very old buildings to replace the original beams that were hand made
they dont want them done with a chainsaw
the naughty boy
10-05-2004, 18:46
ha ha ha good one tahawk,oh my aching sides,stop it stop it ha ha ha :roll:
everyone can clearly see im sure ,that im referring to using an axe from start to finish for making church beams.....also that you have twisted my point completly.typical suppressive attitude :nono:
at least your consistent.but its rather sad that you feel you need to try to make others less in an attempt to make yourself more.try smiling ,im sure youll remember ....eventually.
yawn.......................... .......back to the point eh?
naughty boy
BCUK isn't the place to be deliberately controversial. Your amongst friends by the fire. A bit of banter is fine, but flaming for its own sake is going too far. Calling a craftsman a fool for using skill over the easy way is neither clever or particularly intelligent.
ha ha ha good one tahawk,oh my aching sides,stop it stop it ha ha ha :roll:
everyone can clearly see im sure ,that im referring to using an axe from start to finish for making church beams.....also that you have twisted my point completly.typical suppressive attitude :nono:
at least your consistent.but its rather sad that you feel you need to try to make others less in an attempt to make yourself more.try smiling ,im sure youll remember ....eventually.
yawn.......................... .......back to the point eh?
:nana:
Some of the buildings are listed and HAVE to be made by traditional methods, also if you saw the speed he worked with his vast collection of axes, then I'm not sure that a chainsaw would actually speed things up for him.
If you had an accident in the wilderness, would rather wrap a scarf around the wound and risk getting an infection like Staph. aureous or actually be able to clean it out, stitch/staple/bind it and possibly carry on??? btw you've got to see Stuarts FAK, would put most hospitals to shame!!!
the naughty boy
10-05-2004, 19:09
oh dear ,please let me clarify something here.....
im not specifically calling that chap a fool! it was a figure of speech,im sure he loves what he does and good luck to him.the point was that he could have done it quicker and with less effort.
i also understand that the quickest way is not always the most fun.
could everyone please differentiate [ that means see the difference ] and not take things so litterally . i know you cannot hear the inflections of voice in these posts but ....NO HARM INTENDED!!!
of course if you do take things out of context or try to twist my post as ammunition for a retort then what do you expect chaps? a pat on the back?
strewth! :roll:
St Johns ambulance people are so nice. I intentionally scrathced myself so that i could get a plaster of a good looking girl at the Balmoral show first aid tent today, ahh poor me. :twisted:
Hey, hey, hey - can we please ease off on the personal attack (especially on folks not here to defend themselves).
On the subject of taking things too seriously or having to read the inflection of posts or being too literal, can I say that this is rarely the case on a forum. Misunderstanding will be reduced if reading between the lines is kept to a minimum and things will go a lot smoother if posts are kept clear and concise. If you want to bicker or argue, the forum is not the place to do it - take it to private messaging or, better still, step away from the keyboard and get some fresh air.
Play nicely - or I'll lock the thread! :evil:
I have to say that I have spent many a year taking trees down with a chainsaw, yeh, its quick and easy, but one day I thought lets do this the traditional way (a bit of an out of town streak in me, for those of us old enough to remember), so I took my trusty felling axe to work with me, my god, what hard work, for those of you that have never felled a tree with an axe (Im talking 18" diameter and 50' tall) dont knock it until youve tried it, its back breaking, time consuming and a lot more dangerous than using a chainsaw.
I would love to spend some time with the man that cuts beams, that must be such a dying art, it should be carefully guarded.
:ekt: for the beam cutter.