View Full Version : What can you do without?
Fire Starter
30-11-2006, 17:59
Inspired by Stuarts footnote "Success is not measured by what you have, but by what you can do without" I thought I would start a new thread.
It does seem to me that although this is a Bushcraft forum, 80% of the information is all about kit or kit related.
I was wondering if the true essence of Bushcraft is disappearing under a pile of knives and other kit.
I would love to see and read more bushcraft after all there are other sites dedicated to kit and knives that we could all visit.
I have been watching the old Tracks programmes, early Ray Mears and to be honest this is what Bushcraft is all about, don't you think. Everyone seems to have the kit but I do not read or see much bushcraft coming from all that kit.
I understand that you may want to take some kit with you to make life more comfortable whilst out in the woods practicing a new bushcraft skill but what about the nature? use of plants? trees? shelter building techniques? How to build a full fishing rig using only natural materials? That's the rant over.
Fenlander
30-11-2006, 18:10
Nicely put Fire Starter :You_Rock_
Let's hope it's a popular thread :)
madrussian
30-11-2006, 18:49
Your right. However, I know in my case that at my current skill level, I could not survive in the jungle with just a parang like Ray Mears. :D But it would be fun to try it and see how long I could make it. One day maybe I'll try just for the fun of it. :)
Squidders
30-11-2006, 19:05
<RANT>
I could do without the theiving :censored: who smashed my car window, busted open my locked glove box and stole my GPS today.
Even if I had the unit with me, they'd have smased the window and busted the glovebox open because the mounting bracket was in the car.
Regardless... what can I do without? well, I can do without a load of stuff but I don't want to... controversy you may say!!! well... a lot of what ol' Mears' says is good but the gospel according to x,y,z doesn't interest me. I walk my own path...
Following someone elses path will only lead you to their destination and I prefer a more overgrown route with less footprints.
it's not better or worse, just diferent. I can do without being judged for it.
</RANT>
ArkAngel
30-11-2006, 19:06
Nicely put
A few people have said that in the past...
"a post about knives gets 100's of replies, but something about making cordage gets less than 10" (my apologies for the misquote, but you get the idea)
As madrussian said i don not consider my skill level to be high enough to take a minimal kit package along but it would be fun to try.
Maybe one day i will take my knife and emergency survival kit (1 small belt pouch) and see just how much i can acomplish say for a long weekend somewhere. Or maybe a group weekend away somewhere...a "bring a knife" weekend or "if you can't get it in your pockets, don't bring it" weekend :D
ArkAngel
30-11-2006, 19:08
<RANT>
I could do without the theiving :censored: who smashed my car window, busted open my locked glove box and stole my GPS today.
Even if I had the unit with me, they'd have smased the window and busted the glovebox open because the mounting bracket was in the car.
Regardless... what can I do without? well, I can do without a load of stuff but I don't want to... controversy you may say!!! well... a lot of what ol' Mears' says is good but the gospel according to x,y,z doesn't interest me. I walk my own path...
Following someone elses path will only lead you to their destination and I prefer a more overgrown route with less footprints.
it's not better or worse, just diferent. I can do without being judged for it.
</RANT>
Bad luck, sorry to hear about that :(
:grouphug:
jamesoconnor
30-11-2006, 19:16
Hmmm whay can I do without?...
My wifes nagging for once!!! :rolleyes:
I canoe mainly and heed on the side of overcaution when heading out. Hence the tarp, first aid kit, 3 firestarting kits in differing places, change of clothes, large amount of food, small stove, axe, knife, cord etc. I suppose if I was to have a really good think about it I could and should downsize what I take with me. But then if I were to fall in which I have done before I would curse myself for not taking what I used to take with me. Especially in this coming season and the temperature in the lochs that I go out on. There is the very real risk of getting hypothermia even with a few seconds in the water, and that is why I need the clothes, the fire and the food, the tarp....
Squidders
30-11-2006, 19:19
Cheers.
Seriously, the way I see it is Mears has some skills but he's word is not "the truth", it's his method and understanding of nature and craft and his alone.
I take from him a lot and I have done a knife and billy weekend... It was ok I guess but this isn't a competition guys. Be at one with yourself, your ability and try to get out of whichever aspects of bushcraft your interest lies what you want.
Worrying all the time about being good enough is not the best way to enjoy someone and if you wish to do something, have a go but don't be forced in to it because you think someone is better than you.
;)
We have gone down this road before aint we firestarter :D only kiddin matey.
I more recently can do without a tent, barby, oodles of packaged food, gas stove and a few other bits an bobs.
One day i might be able to do without the crate of larger selection of spirits and serloin steaks and 10 bin bags to take it all home again but lets not get ahead of our selves. :22: (thats a few mates round summer bush craftin ;))
I hear ya honest its just some of us lack the necasary skills and time to do without certain bits .......YET ;)
singteck
30-11-2006, 20:30
I like the icing on my cake :o with all the toppings on it too :D But sometimes I do eat the cake plain :p
singteck
Fire Starter
30-11-2006, 20:40
<RANT>
I could do without the theiving :censored: who smashed my car window, busted open my locked glove box and stole my GPS today.
Even if I had the unit with me, they'd have smased the window and busted the glovebox open because the mounting bracket was in the car.
Regardless... what can I do without? well, I can do without a load of stuff but I don't want to... controversy you may say!!! well... a lot of what ol' Mears' says is good but the gospel according to x,y,z doesn't interest me. I walk my own path...
Following someone elses path will only lead you to their destination and I prefer a more overgrown route with less footprints.
it's not better or worse, just diferent. I can do without being judged for it.
</RANT>
Sqidders, I'm sorry to hear that someone has stolen your GPS.
I think you may have missed the essence of my original post which was to say this bushcraft forum has evolved into a bushkit forum with very little in the way of bushcraft and that the essence of bushcraft is disappearing under a pile of knives, kit and talk of kit related topics.
I am not having a go at individual, judging people or suggesting xyz knows more than abc. I'm not preaching Ray Mears - even he wants to sell you a knife for £300 (More kit)
ArkAngel's noticed that a post on here about knives attracts 100's of replies, but something about making cordage gets less than 10"
you are right fire starter, i am trying to reduce the kit i take, in essential bushcraft it shows a basic kit list and i am trying to limit my self to these
leon
gregorach
30-11-2006, 20:56
I think part of it may be that it's easier to talk about kit than skills. There's only so much that can be said about making cordage, or friction fire, or whatever - whereas there's more or less an infinite amount you can say about kit.
The other thing is that when it comes to skills, in the end you can only really learn by doing. Kit is very expensive to learn about by personal experience. ;)
As for what you can do without, I tend to think that just because you can do without something, that doesn't necessarily mean you should, or would want to given the option...
Squidders
30-11-2006, 20:57
aaahhh... wrong end of the stick I may have got... humble apologies!
In terms of the forum activity, I have no idea. Even among kit hounds (such as myself) some items are more interesting and (for want of a better word) sexy... Not many people talk about trousers or gaiters but a knife glistening in the sun... maybe a slow motion panning shot... well! diferent story. :lmao:
I rarely post on craft or skill posts these days becase often it's the same questions by new people who haven't been able to find their answers by searching / browsing. How to sharpen knives, tie knots, hang hammocks, pitch tarps, carve spoons etc... I'm not at all jaded but I do get dejavu a lot :D
madrussian
30-11-2006, 21:02
I think that is the eventual goal of everyone interested in Bushcraft. For some of us without the time and/or skills it will take us awhile to get there. Besides, just because you have alot in your kit, doesn't mean that you have to use it. I keep a large kit for each member of my family. I live in hurricane country and after hurricanes Katrina and Rita, I want as much kit as I can carry.
Fire Starter
30-11-2006, 21:53
I think part of it may be that it's easier to talk about kit than skills. There's only so much that can be said about making cordage, or friction fire, or whatever - whereas there's more or less an infinite amount you can say about kit.
So it seems the essence of my original post is yes! This forum has evolved into a bushkit forum because there's only so much you can talk about bushcraft skills.
It appears that it is infinitely more interesting and sexier to talk about kit.
I feel the site has indeed evolved into a bushkit site. :(
Squidders, did you buy a GPS because you needed it or because you were pressurised into buying it by advertisers?
As my father says, "The day I cant find a place using a map, is the day I stop driving because Im past it"
Same for me too.
We have a lot of kit, simply because its so readiliy and cheaply availible these days.
If I had to get all my kit from a place like Cotwold outdoors. (a truly impressive shop) I would have very little because I cant afford it.
But I can get stuff off Ebay, I can get stuff at car boots...I can get stuff that even if I dont need it, I can trade for stuff I need from you lot.
Kit is easy these days.
madrussian
30-11-2006, 22:02
Well Fire Starter, what in particular would you like to discuss on this forum that does not involve kit? Start a thread and see what happens. I would love to discuss plants, trees and nature, but I live in South Louisiana. The plants, trees and nature here are a bit different than what you are accustomed to.
Squidders
30-11-2006, 22:09
Squidders, did you buy a GPS because you needed it or because you were pressurised into buying it by advertisers?
As my father says, "The day I cant find a place using a map, is the day I stop driving because Im past it.
I don't have a problem with maps at all... I don't have a problem driving either.
I don't enjoy crashing because I was reading a map and I would rather not have to stop should I have to go around a problem area... also things like petrol stations aren't on most roadmaps and updating street level for the whole of western europe doesn't involve buying 50 road maps but getting a free download... I can go on :lmao:
gregorach
30-11-2006, 22:14
So it seems the essence of my original post is yes! This forum has evolved into a bushkit forum because there's only so much you can talk about bushcraft skills.
It appears that it is infinitely more interesting and sexier to talk about kit.
I feel the site has indeed evolved into a bushkit site. :(
That's not quite what I said... I wouldn't agree that it's a "bushkit" site at all. There's plenty of other discussions going on all the time. You may wish that the ratio of kit discussion were lower, but I don't think it's fair to say that it's the main focus of the site.
Sorry if I sound all legalistic, been on jury service for the last week... ;)
Well Fire Starter, what in particular would you like to discuss on this forum that does not involve kit? Start a thread and see what happens. I would love to discuss plants, trees and nature, but I live in South Louisiana. The plants, trees and nature here are a bit different than what you are accustomed to.
yes i second that i would be very interseted to read about that sort of stuff
leon
ArkAngel
30-11-2006, 22:27
So it seems the essence of my original post is yes! This forum has evolved into a bushkit forum because there's only so much you can talk about bushcraft skills.
It appears that it is infinitely more interesting and sexier to talk about kit.
I feel the site has indeed evolved into a bushkit site. :(
I think it depends on how you view the subject
My thoughts on it are this
Mr Mears and the like tell us and demonstrate to us various 'ancient' ways of living (shelter building, fire making, how to eat and survive off the land etc). Now most tell us these ways have been around for many hundreds if not thousands of years and have vitually unchanged in that time, mainly because they work!
If this forum is a continuation of that then surely there is only a finite amount of topics and information that could ever be posted on the subject. Say 10 ways of making fire from around the world (hand drill, bow drill, bamboo fire saw etc) and those skills could and should be learnt and applied in the relevant situation.
The same would apply for shelter building, water collection, food, coradage making and so on.
A lot of these skills are increased or expanded on by the input of modern technology, gadgets and materials. I do not suggest in any way that we stop talking about kit but neither should we stop learning or talking about these 'older' methods of Bushcraft.
I am very interested to hear about cordage making, fire by friction, shelter buildind etc but i feel because either i do not know the skills or have the land to practise them on i have nothing to contribute further to the topic. i would suspect that is why most people would be happy to discuss why the Ray Mears saw is £80 but when a post appears "What type of fungi is this?" only a handful of people on the site will have a clue.
As i understand it a lot of the 'longer serving' members of the site have drifted away beacause of the discussion of kit or that they were constantly been asked the same questions by the newer members.
My hope would be that as we all become better bushcraters we will have that "zen" moment when we realise that we have all the kit we need and concentrate on the subject and the world around us as opposed to how shiney our knives are :D I hope this is something that happens in the evolution of a bushcrafter, form "all the gear and no idea" to "i am at one with nature" ;)
I for one am starting to realise i have a wealth of top class gear that should last me a lifetime if properly looked after, my next purchase will be a tree identification book so i can identify more than the silver birch we have round us!
ArkAngel
30-11-2006, 22:28
Well Fire Starter, what in particular would you like to discuss on this forum that does not involve kit? Start a thread and see what happens. I would love to discuss plants, trees and nature, but I live in South Louisiana. The plants, trees and nature here are a bit different than what you are accustomed to.
Would love to see some pictures of that area :)
As a noobie it's interesting to see what people are actually doing and how.
As others have said these skills haven't changed much over time and the information is largely available if you look. However, kit does change and discussing it prevents expensive mistakes.
Don't misunderstand me, the skills are important and I intend to gradually learn what I can but the most important thing is to simply get out there and know I can deal with anything and be comfatable. Yes, I'd like to learn how to make cord to tie up some supports for a tarp or build a complete shelter but I'm not going to get wet because I don't yet know how to do it.
This thread has given me an idea though...
I think it depends on how you view the subject
My thoughts on it are this
Mr Mears and the like tell us and demonstrate to us various 'ancient' ways of living (shelter building, fire making, how to eat and survive off the land etc). Now most tell us these ways have been around for many hundreds if not thousands of years and have virtually unchanged in that time, mainly because they work!
If this forum is a continuation of that then surely there is only a finite amount of topics and information that could ever be posted on the subject. Say 10 ways of making fire from around the world (hand drill, bow drill, bamboo fire saw etc) and those skills could and should be learnt and applied in the relevant situation.
The same would apply for shelter building, water collection, food, cordage making and so on.
A lot of these skills are increased or expanded on by the input of modern technology, gadgets and materials. I do not suggest in any way that we stop talking about kit but neither should we stop learning or talking about these 'older' methods of Bushcraft.
I am very interested to hear about cordage making, fire by friction, shelter buildind etc but i feel because either i do not know the skills or have the land to practise them on i have nothing to contribute further to the topic. i would suspect that is why most people would be happy to discuss why the Ray Mears saw is £80 but when a post appears "What type of fungi is this?" only a handful of people on the site will have a clue.
As i understand it a lot of the 'longer serving' members of the site have drifted away beacause of the discussion of kit or that they were constantly been asked the same questions by the newer members.
My hope would be that as we all become better bushcraters we will have that "zen" moment when we realise that we have all the kit we need and concentrate on the subject and the world around us as opposed to how shiney our knives are :D I hope this is something that happens in the evolution of a bushcrafter, form "all the gear and no idea" to "i am at one with nature" ;)
I for one am starting to realise i have a wealth of top class gear that should last me a lifetime if properly looked after, my next purchase will be a tree identification book so i can identify more than the silver birch we have round us!
You raised some good points there, I for one love gadgets and technology, and am guilty of buying more gear than I will use :o But this thread has made me think back to what I used as a your teenage hillwalker in North Wales, and I got by very happily on very little
Mountain Tent (Black's for those who remember them)
Primus stove
2 army mess tins
sleeping bag
lilo air bed
candles
spare pants and socks
few tins of food
army water bottle
and that was more or less it, and would do me for a long weekend no problem. Bloody hell, these days mp3 players, digital camera's, GPS, mobile phones etc are seemed essential by some ;)
"a post about knives gets 100's of replies, but something about making cordage gets less than 10" (my apologies for the misquote, but you get the idea
I agree but on a different note. Just try and write instructions on how to make cordage. you will find that you need a LOT more words than you think!
It's funny you learn something, practice it and you start to think it's simple.... untill you try and write it down in detail.
Also cordage dosnt have any component that shine! :D
pierre girard
01-12-2006, 06:29
Inspired by Stuarts footnote "Success is not measured by what you have, but by what you can do without" I thought I would start a new thread.
It does seem to me that although this is a Bushcraft forum, 80% of the information is all about kit or kit related.
I was wondering if the true essence of Bushcraft is disappearing under a pile of knives and other kit.
I would love to see and read more bushcraft after all there are other sites dedicated to kit and knives that we could all visit.
I have been watching the old Tracks programmes, early Ray Mears and to be honest this is what Bushcraft is all about, don't you think. Everyone seems to have the kit but I do not read or see much bushcraft coming from all that kit.
I understand that you may want to take some kit with you to make life more comfortable whilst out in the woods practicing a new bushcraft skill but what about the nature? use of plants? trees? shelter building techniques? How to build a full fishing rig using only natural materials? That's the rant over.
We go out for a week, once a year, on a late autumn "starvation trek." We bring minimal gear and no food. It is well named. We usually starve or freeze - to some degree. Still, we keep doing it, year after year.
As others have stated there are only so many bushcraft techniques to discuss, and it's more important to be out there doing them than talking about them.
It's natural that more people talk about kit - after all it's shiny :) - but I've recently realised myself that I'm thinking too much about kit and not enough about actually getting out there and doing it, so I'm trying to address that.
I think less people are willing to ask questions for fear of looking foolish, but it doesn't have to be like that - look at leon-b's epic list to learn (http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=13580) thread.
I think we can all learn from Leons enthusiam
hammock monkey
01-12-2006, 11:20
kit is great, but there's nothing to beat knowledge, in terms of 'what you take with you'.
i love the idea of going out without a knife, i started a thread about it a while ago.
could you go to the woods with nothing, and be ok?
i'm certain it'd be lovely in dry summer time like most of us, but the rain would soon shrivel my enthusiam!
Just 'sitting on a log' for a few hours teaches me more than any catalogue, i agree that kit is more of a distraction when it (sneakily) becomes the reason for going...
I love the starvation week idea...people pay the equivalent of $1000 to do that in the UK for a week, which shows how much value the knowlegde has.
at the end of the day, to me, bushcraft is about finding out as much about the world as possible, taking endless toys out is fun, but i guess its a free world, eh? shame i'm sat in here, not out there!
time to do summat about that...
Fire Starter
01-12-2006, 13:12
Well Fire Starter, what in particular would you like to discuss on this forum that does not involve kit? Start a thread and see what happens. I would love to discuss plants, trees and nature, but I live in South Louisiana. The plants, trees and nature here are a bit different than what you are accustomed to.
yes i second that i would be very interseted to read about that sort of stuff
leon
First of all, thanks to everyone who has taken the time and contribute to this thread, from the Noobie through to the starvation treker (sounds great)
Well, I can't believe what I am reading here. Some people seem to think that Bushcraft skills, knowledge etc is very limited as far as a discussion goes and that kit can be discussed to infinity.
I've spoken to a few people at the wilderness gathering in September this year and the general opinion was that it would take more than a lifetime to acquire the knowledge and skills contained within Bushcraft.
Ok so we have thousands of posts on knifes, talking about the maker, grind, tang, steel, scales material etc but where is the bushcraft that comes from such a tool - It's not the knife we should be discussing, but what you can do with it and the various methods of using it and the different woods and their varying properties etc.
Saying that there is only so much to say about cordage making, fire by friction and whatever is an extremely narrow minded view of Bushcraft in my opinion.
I realised after my first attempt at nettle cordage that cordage making was a huge subject in its own right. There are thousands of plants, trees, shrubs out there that I do not know the name of never mind their cordage making potential.
I take it Gregorach that you know all about cordage making and you are competent in the various fire by friction methods, bow drill, hand drill, fire plough, fire saw, pump drill, fire thong and the various woods and their different qualities?
Fenlander I noticed you came in to this thread with a positive post and I checked out your site (great site by the way) what do you think? as you are a practitioner of Bushcraft and primitive skills.
Just look at the number of posts in edged tools and kit chatter, you'll see what I'm trying to say. What ever the subject topic the conversation always turns around to kit.
Finally, I want to make it clear that I do not wish to start a "I know more than you competition" I come on here to read and learn about Bushcraft
Not to read about who has best chopper :rolleyes:
I spend my working life teaching people about ancient life and technologies.
I have a large storehouse of reproduction equipment from the Iron age to Early Medieval periods.
I have slept on the deck of a longship and under my shield on the battlefield.
I've made my own tools and even the tools with which to make my tools.
Every now and again I like to have a few things that make life comfortable when I'm relaxing.
Bushcraft does not mean having to go without. It means going with what you are comfortable with.
For some that will be a flake of flint and others it will be a bergen full of high tech wundergoodies.
The important thing is that we get out there and "do it" in a sustainable low impact way.
What's with all the navel gazing? :rolleyes:
ArkAngel
01-12-2006, 13:37
I agree
I tend to find i am goingout with less gear these days...
..mind you this is because i bought a digital camera a while ago and the bushcraft goodies are starting to make way for camera gear :D
I can forsee a time when i get rid of all my bushcrafty gear and just carry camera equipment. I will still contribute to the site (and bore you all senseless with more photo's :) ) and be a staunch supporter ofthis excellent forum.
Keep your eyes peeled, i may be getting rid of some nice shiney stuff soon! :yikes:
madrussian
01-12-2006, 13:44
Going White tail deer hunting next weekend in an area North of Baton Rouge. I will try to get some pictures to post. The area is much nicer then around my home town. Nothing but sugar cane fields.
Fire Starter
01-12-2006, 13:59
I spend my working life teaching people about ancient life and technologies.
I have a large storehouse of reproduction equipment from the Iron age to Early Medieval periods.
I have slept on the deck of a longship and under my shield on the battlefield.
I've made my own tools and even the tools with which to make my tools.
Every now and again I like to have a few things that make life comfortable when I'm relaxing.
Bushcraft does not mean having to go without. It means going with what you are comfortable with.
For some that will be a flake of flint and others it will be a bergen full of high tech wundergoodies.
The important thing is that we get out there and "do it" in a sustainable low impact way.
What's with all the navel gazing? :rolleyes:
Sorry Wayland,
I was under the impression that this was a bushcraft site. Not a viking re-enactment chat room.
May I draw your attention to the essence of my original and subsequent posts. I actually agree with you in that we should get out their and "do it" and then discuss on the bushcraft forum.
I found your post very interesting but fail to see what it has to do with bushcraft. :confused:
Can I ask which battlefield you slept on and were their many casualtys? :lmao:
Not sure what you mean by navel gazing? Is that something you do on the deck of a long ship with one eye open? :lmao:
What's with all the navel gazing? :rolleyes:
A frequent problem in the common or garden internet forum. :dunno:
I can see this thread turning nasty, so I'll probably avoid it from here on in.
Firestarter,
It seems as if you have your own version of minimalistic bushcraft and i think thats what its all about different opinions :) but please do not try to put anyone elses version down. Which is what i think you seem to be doing :(
I know you may prefer a certain type of what you call bushcrafting but you seem to be coining the phrase as your own an i rekon thats a bit out of order mate.
If this offends i apologise ONCE again :rolleyes:
The thing that makes me love what I call bushcraft so much is there arent any exams, levels, one upmanship b***x of which everyday life is full off.
It what it means to YOU ! that counts
ArkAngel
01-12-2006, 15:09
Sorry Wayland,
I was under the impression that this was a bushcraft site. Not a viking re-enactment chat room.
May I draw your attention to the essence of my original and subsequent posts. I actually agree with you in that we should get out their and "do it" and then discuss on the bushcraft forum.
I found your post very interesting but fail to see what it has to do with bushcraft. :confused:
Can I ask which battlefield you slept on and were their many casualtys? :lmao:
Not sure what you mean by navel gazing? Is that something you do on the deck of a long ship with one eye open? :lmao:
I have to agree with Dwardo
Please do not start having a go at other members on the site because their interpretation of bushcraft is not the same as your own. As others have said bushcraft is different things to different people.
I have not camped out for years nor do i intend to, am i not a bushcrafter?
I like the outdoors and enjoy learning about the environment i am in, but i have never built a shelter in the woods, only ever eaten rabbits i have shot in the house.
I know i am a 'fringe/armchair' bushcrafter as are a lot of people on this site.
1 thing i like about this site is that all people are welcomed wether they are serious hardcore survivalists or armchair enthusaiste. All contributions and opinions are welcomed.
Please just appreciate that your opinion is just that, your opinion. There are over 3000 opinions on this site and as far as i am concerned all are right :D
Sorry Wayland,
I found your post very interesting but fail to see what it has to do with bushcraft. :confused:
My point is, going with minimal or ancient kit is something I do all the time. I enjoy it and it has afforded me many interesting opportunities but sometimes even I need a break from it.
Bushcraft is something I do for fun so what is wrong with having a few luxuries or modern pieces of kit?
If you are advocating that we should all do away with modern equipment because it is not "Bushcrafty" in some way then how far do you take it.
Should it be pre 20th century or prehistoric?
Should we use stainless steel blades or flint ones?
Bushcraft has far more to do with attitude and mind set than whether or not you can do without this or that piece of equipment.
Take fire for example, presumably a subject close to your heart. ;)
The lightest and easiest fire making method is a match. That is really "Carrying less by knowing more".
However many people on this site choose to use other methods, all of which require more equipment not less. They usually do this, not because it is easier or lighter, but because it is more rewarding in some way.
Even fire by friction usually requires a blade of some kind to get started.
It's an interesting point that gear gets more attention on the site than techniques but without the gear most people from this site would not get out to practice the techniques.
I don't think there's much you can do to change that.
I think that for me, the term bushcraft might have a different meaning than it does for many of you. To be honest, I'm not interested in a lot of the more primitive tasks that many of you have already mastered. When I think of bushcraft, I think "I'm lost in the woods. I was seperated from my party. I've got the clothes on my back and a few essentials in a kit bag. I know that Search and Rescue is going to come find me within a few days. What do I need to know to sustain myself comfortably until that time?" I guess what falls under the "survival" terminology. After witnessing and being part of a few really bad outdoor accidents, I basically came to the conclusion that "Sh*t. I don't know what I'd do if I was in *insert bad situation here.* I'd probably die before search and rescue came to find me."
Granted, perhaps flint knapping or making cordage might come in handy if I was lost, but as to a basic few days waiting for some SAR-techs to come get me, I'd say I'd probably survive long enough to be rescued. I can make snares, make fire with my firesteel, build a survival shelter, and I know every item in my kitbag(s) off by heart. I'd like to say that I'm comfortable with that notion.
But there's still a lot of other things that I haven't learned, and that's why I'm here. The sheer joy I get from posting on this forum, interacting, and learning things from other people sharing similar interests to mine is why I have eight hundred and something posts. And the fact that I continue to learn from this site is why I keep coming back.
The saddest part of this thread for me is that, I don't get out as much as I used to. I work a lot of hours, and university takes up even more hours. When I'm not at work or school, I'm studying for exams. But every so often, when I can have that window of opportunity, a few days in the bush can be a wonderful thing. :)
Adam
ArkAngel
01-12-2006, 15:32
Armchair hunter as well as armchair bushcrafter then ...
Yeah it's the holes in the walls the wife doesn't like :lmao:
Perphaps i should of worded that slightly better :D
fred gordon
01-12-2006, 16:06
So it seems the essence of my original post is yes! This forum has evolved into a bushkit forum because there's only so much you can talk about bushcraft skills.
It appears that it is infinitely more interesting and sexier to talk about kit.
I feel the site has indeed evolved into a bushkit site. :(
I'm not sure I agree with this. My impression is that if you look at all the threads in all the forum areas you will find other things like recipes, cordage, etc. You just need to look. However, if what you say is the case then we are all guilty, but, it is what we seem to want to discuss at the moment. It is also up to those who want more of other things to start posting about them. So if we want more about shelter building and other more 'purist' elements of Bushcraft then those who feel like that need to get posting. I would certainly be interested. :)
Neanderthal
01-12-2006, 17:14
Fire Starter,
In reply to your original post.
I've got plenty of kit which I could take but I try to pack from the perspective of what can I do without as I've carried too much kit far too many miles. :)
In an effort to reduce the weight and volume of kit I carry, I keep trying to do without a sleeping bag. By picking the best/most sheltered campsite or using the other kit with me in a different way to best effect i.e feet in rucksack, matteress from natural materials, wearing a hat. Although I've had a number of cold nights I have in fact learnt quite a bit about various techniques and what level of comfort I'm prepared to accept. On a 40+ mile walk from home to the Peak District I was able to just take my buffalo jacket and find enough bits and pieces to make a rough shelter which was good enough to keep me warm overnight or at least what was left of the night. :) A lighter pack=faster travel=greater mileage=less days food needed=a lighter pack. Unfortunately there are limits to how far this concept can be carried. :)
Similarly I've stopped using my Trangia stove in favour of a home made alchohol can stove and potstand made from a coat hanger as this system is much lighter. I'm also using a hobo stove made from an 800g soup can as I can find a few sticks/cones etc to cook with which saves taking as much meths.
Thanks to the various Group buys (thanks guys) I can sometimes replace my tent with a tarp/hammock system saving some more weight.
While a lot of the above is just using different kit, some of it is made from what would be junk found in the environment, so I could make things as needed and adapt as the situation dictated. In order to use many bushcraft skills I find that there is a penalty in terms of time, boiling water to make it safe is one good example. However if I'm out bushcrafting for the weekend then time is not a problem and I can enjoy being outdoors.
One thing I would like to leave behind is the library that seems to live in my rucksack. There seems so much I don't know and I seem to be finding out more interesting areas I know little about. :eek:
Stu
(Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want.)
Fire Starter
01-12-2006, 18:11
Hold on guys, I am not out to offend anyone nor burst anyone's perception of what bushcraft is or how they go about it.
I simply asked about the content of the bushcraft forum
- is it a Bushcraft forum or a Bushkit forum -
the reason I asked this is because around 80% of the information on it is all about knives and kit.
I did not go out of my way to offend Geograch, I merely responded to his comment which you can read for yourselves.
I thought the thread was civilised up to the point when Wayland accused me of navel watching so my reply was in kind.
Anyway lets not all jump into this and miss out on the point I'm try to raise and bring the thread down in the process.
So I will quote Gregorach again, because I think the comments he made here is a very good example of exactly what I meant.
QUOTE Gregorach
"I think part of it may be that it's easier to talk about kit than skills. There's only so much that can be said about making cordage, or friction fire, or whatever - whereas there's more or less an infinite amount you can say about kit".
Now is there any experienced Mods or practising Bushcrafters on here that actually agree with this?
Fenlander
01-12-2006, 18:23
Fenlander I noticed you came in to this thread with a positive post and I checked out your site (great site by the way) what do you think? as you are a practitioner of Bushcraft and primitive skills.
Just look at the number of posts in edged tools and kit chatter, you'll see what I'm trying to say. What ever the subject topic the conversation always turns around to kit.
The forum certainly does seem to be dominated by kit chatter these days.
A knife for me is just a tool used to achieve a required result, be it a shelter or tooth pick.
I still carry more kit than I need :rolleyes: , but rarely carry kit i don't use.
Whenever I'm out now, whether it's for a night or a few days, I deliberately leave something I know I will need behind. This forces me to either use natural resources or adapt another item in my bag to achieve the required result. By doing this, I'm stepping out of my "comfort zone" and relying on my skills, knowledge and imagination to provide what I need. I am now starting to realise that some items of kit I thought I could'n't do without, I actually can.
There are always new things to be learnt by practicing skills and experimenting. Rich59 is a great example of this. At the summer moot he turned up in a t-shirt, jeans and trainers, carrying a small rucksack and Swedish army knife. Yet with only very basic equipment, his workshops, based on experience and experimentation were an inspiration to us all, be it the forearm bow-drill bow or the wet tinder tube.
I know from experience that PatrickM's kit is very limited, but just look at what he achieves :cool:
I personally would like to see more of what people do or produce with their kit, rather than read about the kit itself.
I always carry a piece of flat chainsaw file (as a steel) and a piece of flint in this buckskin neck pouch, for fire starting.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e123/sufguy1/Neckpouchcontents.jpg
Using the piece of flint and the file as an abrasive I made this bone awl and needle.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e123/sufguy1/Bonesewingkit.jpg
Using the bone awl and needle I've now made these birch bark containers (but not the cup ;) ).
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e123/sufguy1/Birchpots-3.jpg
I used to carry a metal awl, a larger file and a "traditional flint steel striker".
ArkAngel
01-12-2006, 18:38
Hold on guys, I am not out to offend anyone nor burst anyone's perception of what bushcraft is or how they go about it.
I simply asked about the content of the bushcraft forum
- is it a Bushcraft forum or a Bushkit forum -
the reason I asked this is because around 80% of the information on it is all about knives and kit.
I did not go out of my way to offend Geograch, I merely responded to his comment which you can read for yourselves.
I thought the thread was civilised up to the point when Wayland accused me of navel watching so my reply was in kind.
Anyway lets not all jump into this and miss out on the point I'm try to raise and bring the thread down in the process.
So I will quote Gregorach again, because I think the comments he made here is a very good example of exactly what I meant.
QUOTE Gregorach
"I think part of it may be that it's easier to talk about kit than skills. There's only so much that can be said about making cordage, or friction fire, or whatever - whereas there's more or less an infinite amount you can say about kit".
Now is there any experienced Mods or practising Bushcrafters on here that actually agree with this?
Ok so what is your peception/definition of a 'practising bushcrafter'?
I think that everyone on this forum from the survival school/bushcraft instructors to the armchair Ray Mears fans practise bushcraft in their own way.
Even the armchair bushcrafters have a valid claim to be practising as they will be learning just by watching.
It is all about the knowledge carried with you. People have survived in situations by watching films of an outdoor nature and applying what they have learnt in that situation, maybe not to the comfort level that some people on here could but surviving never the less.
Yes we are all guilty of fixating on kit and shiney things but as we have said before the provision is made for the more traditional crafts.
We have a "kit" forum and a "knife" forum. Yes they see more traffic than most but that still leaves the flora and fauna, traditional crafts, out and about sections for the people who want to post in there.
It is the same on the airgun BBS. Kit, rifles, scopes and pellets are discussed far more than the technicalities of actually how to shoot.
Everyone on this site is a practising bushcrafter in their own way. If a little kit fixated but that is the western way of things. I feel confident in time that people will still talk endlessly about kit and shiney things but the other more traditional forums will still see a healthy percentage of traffic.
I am curious to understand what you intend to achieve by this post. I would think a good number of us would agree that our posts can be a bit kit heavy but most of us have an insight into this. It will not change the way we practise our interpretation of bushcraft or suddenly make us realise "oh no we have lost our way, remove the knife forum and kit forum immediately please Tony"
**edit** Having just read Fenlanders post it illustrates my point perfectly. I am in awe of people who can create home made/traditional kit like this. I enjoy looking at it and watching people discuss how it is made. But i never intend to make it myself, to be honest i dont' have the room, the technical know how or the inclination. It will never replace my knife and the modern kit i use, but all credit to the people who do use it.
PS. That last bit about removing the forums may sound a bit sarcastic i have just realised. It is not meant to be, i'm just curious where you are going with this :)
madrussian
01-12-2006, 18:45
Fenlander you are the man. :notworthy Do you have step by step pictures of how you made these items? If not, it would be great if you could put something together for us.
I have been watching the old Tracks programmes, early Ray Mears and to be honest this is what Bushcraft is all about, don't you think.
Where did you see Tracks recently? :eek: I didn't see any of them first time round, and I didn't think they were available on DVD, Tape, You yube.. what ever..
gregorach
01-12-2006, 19:08
I did not go out of my way to offend Geograch, I merely responded to his comment which you can read for yourselves.
You haven't offended me at all. :)
So I will quote Gregorach again, because I think the comments he made here is a very good example of exactly what I meant.
QUOTE Gregorach
"I think part of it may be that it's easier to talk about kit than skills. There's only so much that can be said about making cordage, or friction fire, or whatever - whereas there's more or less an infinite amount you can say about kit".
Now is there any experienced Mods or practising Bushcrafters on here that actually agree with this?
I think you're reading more into that than I meant. I'm sorry that I didn't really make myself clear - I wrote it too quickly and without enough thought.
When I said there's a more or less infinite amount you can say about kit, what I was refering to was the huge variety available - there's always something new coming along, people are always looking to improve what they have, etc, etc. If you're thinking about buying something new, there's a heck of a lot of options to consider for just about anything.
When I said that there's only so much to be said about skills, what I meant was that beyond the basic points, it's very difficult to say anything useful on an internet forum. I could try and describe the proper posture for bow-drill til I'm blue in the fingers, but there's simply no substitute for doing it. Face-to-face, you can say "left foot back a bit", "right knee out more" or whatever. Doing it, you can feel how changing pressure and speed affects your drilling. You just can't effectively transmit skills in textual form.
However, I still don't agree with your basic premise - that this site is mainly about kit. I just don't think it's true over time. There may be an unusual amount of kit discussion going on now, but then it is kit maintenance season and it is coming up to Christmas.
Finally, I must point out that nobody's forcing you to read kit-related threads. If you ask good questions or post good information about whatever it is that you would like to see more of on the forums, I'm sure you'll get a good response. :)
gregorach
01-12-2006, 19:11
Where did you see Tracks recently? :eek: I didn't see any of them first time round, and I didn't think they were available on DVD, Tape, You yube.. what ever..
UK Documentary channel has been re-running them. :)
For my kind of being outside, the one thing I will always do without, is a GPS.
I sell them, thats enough of it.
What I will do this winter, health permitting:
Walk out into the wood for some hours and sleep outside with sleepingbag, bivybag, tarp and gasstove.
I really hope that I can do this without anything in this ******* cadaver to break down again :o
Very interesting thread this.....I am more interested in the trade, than the tools of the trade, but I am not going to say, stop talking shineys to anyone. Bushcraft is a very broad subject and everyone is different, so lets live and let live. I am not having a go Firestarter, cos I agree with where you are comming from. I think if you want to see more on the skills, then just start a thread on what you are interested in, there are people out here who will help, or will share thoughts with you. Or do a search, there is a lot on here.
I am a kit junkie, but I am more interested in the nature around me, I love wildlife, I love getting out there and watching wildlife on my own or with my boy, but I love the social side of it too, and having a beer round the fire, while the hammock awaits me, if superb, esp when I can find the hammock after a few beers and don't have to sleep in a ditch.....
Fire Starter
01-12-2006, 21:23
Ok so what is your peception/definition of a 'practising bushcrafter'?
I think that everyone on this forum from the survival school/bushcraft instructors to the armchair Ray Mears fans practise bushcraft in their own way.
Even the armchair bushcrafters have a valid claim to be practising as they will be learning just by watching.
It is all about the knowledge carried with you. People have survived in situations by watching films of an outdoor nature and applying what they have learnt in that situation, maybe not to the comfort level that some people on here could but surviving never the less.
Yes we are all guilty of fixating on kit and shiney things but as we have said before the provision is made for the more traditional crafts.
We have a "kit" forum and a "knife" forum. Yes they see more traffic than most but that still leaves the flora and fauna, traditional crafts, out and about sections for the people who want to post in there.
It is the same on the airgun BBS. Kit, rifles, scopes and pellets are discussed far more than the technicalities of actually how to shoot.
Everyone on this site is a practising bushcrafter in their own way. If a little kit fixated but that is the western way of things. I feel confident in time that people will still talk endlessly about kit and shiney things but the other more traditional forums will still see a healthy percentage of traffic.
I am curious to understand what you intend to achieve by this post. I would think a good number of us would agree that our posts can be a bit kit heavy but most of us have an insight into this. It will not change the way we practise our interpretation of bushcraft or suddenly make us realise "oh no we have lost our way, remove the knife forum and kit forum immediately please Tony"
**edit** Having just read Fenlanders post it illustrates my point perfectly. I am in awe of people who can create home made/traditional kit like this. I enjoy looking at it and watching people discuss how it is made. But i never intend to make it myself, to be honest i dont' have the room, the technical know how or the inclination. It will never replace my knife and the modern kit i use, but all credit to the people who do use it.
PS. That last bit about removing the forums may sound a bit sarcastic i have just realised. It is not meant to be, i'm just curious where you are going with this :)
I have no agenda and I am not really going anywhere with this. I merely raised an observation and asked the question - Buscraft forum or Bushkit forum - in order to raise some awareness of what this site is all about. I feel I have made my point.
Respect to Fenlander, some good work there. So, whether you are into Bushcraft, Bushkit, or Bushcamping be careful out there and have fun.
Cheers :drive:
Fire Starter
For my kind of being outside, the one thing I will always do without, is a GPS.
I sell them, thats enough of it.
What I will do this winter, health permitting:
Walk out into the wood for some hours and sleep outside with sleepingbag, bivybag, tarp and gasstove.
I really hope that I can do this without anything in this ******* cadaver to break down again :o
"Walk out into the wood for some hours and sleep outside with sleepingbag, bivybag, tarp and gasstove" :eek: , please not a gas stove, paraffin, petrol or a Trangia yes, gas no :(
UK Documentary channel has been re-running them. :)
Thanks
:censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: I missed it
Wow this thread is raising the temperature and has the risk of starting a fire by cyber space friction.
Firestarter, when I go bush I carry less kit than our BCUK "cup of tea" guru Stuart for 2 reasons - I am older and desperately want to minimise weight and I am less interested in kit than he is (unless it is lightweight kit) and he also is often testing and reviewing kit. he also like to listen to music and I am content with the sound of the jungle.
I can make shelter, cordage, a bow drill from woods I find in the jungle, make fire in teh jungle and I have other "survival" skills etc. Can't carve a spoon though
I am not a better bush carfter than him - I carry less by choice and I was happy that he pulled out teh US Air Force fire starter kit when the jungle was too wet to start a fire with traditional means.
Kit was good to have that night!
Bushcraft is many things
TheGreenMan
02-12-2006, 12:55
Inspired by Stuarts footnote "Success is not measured by what you have, but by what you can do without" I thought I would start a new thread.
It does seem to me that although this is a Bushcraft forum, 80% of the information is all about kit or kit related.
I was wondering if the true essence of Bushcraft is disappearing under a pile of knives and other kit.
I would love to see and read more bushcraft after all there are other sites dedicated to kit and knives that we could all visit.
I have been watching the old Tracks programmes, early Ray Mears and to be honest this is what Bushcraft is all about, don't you think. Everyone seems to have the kit but I do not read or see much bushcraft coming from all that kit.
I understand that you may want to take some kit with you to make life more comfortable whilst out in the woods practicing a new bushcraft skill but what about the nature? use of plants? trees? shelter building techniques? How to build a full fishing rig using only natural materials? That's the rant over.
Hello Fire Starter,
In short, the site handles both well. There are many forums on the site, Bushcraft Chatter and Kit Chatter are only two. Usage of any given forum will rise and fall, reflecting the nature of peoples varying interests, at different times. And if one looks at the two above, you will notice that the total number of posts to each of those forums are roughly on a par, but I really don’t want to get into a statistical thing here.
I’m not going to interpret your proposition for debate, as a negative criticism of those of us who tend toward the freaky end of the kit spectrum.
The only other thing that I would like to express, is that I have dislike of ‘bushcraft fascism’ that suggests that there is a definitive type bushcraft, and that all other types are inferior. Clearly, this is ‘tosh’. By the way, this is not aimed at anyone in particular, whether on or off the forums, it’s an observation only.
You are wicked Fire Starter :D
Best regards,
Paul.
I'm Glad my signature has prompted some thought, though I never expected it to become the basis of a heated debate!
BOD's post has highlighted an interesting phenomenon, which unless you had seen BOD and myself in the jungle would be overlooked
Firestarter, when I go bush I carry less kit than our BCUK "cup of tea" guru Stuart for 2 reasons - I am older and desperately want to minimise weight and I am less interested in kit than he is (unless it is lightweight kit) and he also is often testing and reviewing kit. he also like to listen to music and I am content with the sound of the jungle.
I can make shelter, cordage, a bow drill from woods I find in the jungle, make fire in teh jungle and I have other "survival" skills etc. Can't carve a spoon though
I am not a better bush carfter than him - I carry less by choice and I was happy that he pulled out teh US Air Force fire starter kit when the jungle was too wet to start a fire with traditional means.
Kit was good to have that night!
when BOD states that he carrys less kit than me, he does so because he only carrys belt order webbing, where as I carry a 20lt backpack and two coke bottles:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v174/diabolik/junglebag06.jpg
now to most people a 20lt bag for a week in the jungle would be considered 'kit minimalist' , but to BOD it is more 'kit intensive' than preferred setup
likewise Jamit (iban) whilst accompanying us in the same jungle might consider BODs belt order overly 'kit intensive', he only carries a parang!
its all about your point of view and what makes BCUK so friendly is that all points of view are welcome here
A thought, I suspect that there is a corelation between those that are kit orientated and those that spend more time online and posting on an internet forum. If that is indead the case then getting a fair proportion of kit based post would go with the ( internet ) territory so to speak.
Also its easier to make a quick couple of lines post about a piece of kit than make a detailed post about a skill.
Taking those into acount BCUK, as a forum, seem very well balanced to me.