View Full Version : Pine resin glue
Roving Rich
14-10-2003, 10:37
Hi folks- I was messing around with pine glue at the weekend trying to get some fletches (Goose feathers) to stick to an arrow shaft without much success. I warmed the resin as gently as possible in a can in the embers of a fire until liquid, dipped the feather then stuck it to arrow shaft as quickly as possible. The resin sets in about 1.5 seconds! so you can't adjust and get big blobs - not ideal for streamlined arrows arrows !
So anybody out there know how to (1) thin the glue (2) stop it going off so damned fast ! or (3) a better suitable primitive glue ? :?:
Thanks for your advice
Rich
Dunno how good cutlers' resin would be in this application - http://blackpowderonline.com/cutlrsresin.htm
Rich
Have you tried thinning it with turpentine? The real stuff not turps substitute. As I recall, it's derived from resin so you would think it might do what you want it to do. Might make it stay wet too long though.
Alternatively you could try using a thin piece of dried animal sinew. Wet it and wrap it around the fletching still wet. It dries and sticks to itself. It's good for reinforcing the front end of the fletching if your glue isn't too strong, but you could use it to attach the whole thing without any glue at all.
Let us know what you end up using.
George
Roving Rich
14-10-2003, 13:08
Thanks Peter, sounds like good stuff, but any idea what Carnauba wax is?
I think I better try the Turps for starters and maybe mix in a little beeswax for good measure and see what I end up with? I had considered white spirit but then I also considered superglue...
Cheers guys
Rich :biggthump
you can buy blocks of carnauba wax and beeswax from craft supplies...
http://www.craft-supplies.co.uk/
pure carnauba wax (http://www.craft-supplies.co.uk/cgi-bin/psProdDet.cgi/FM242||carnauba~@c~@b|0|user|1 ,0,0,1|3|)is very hard and brittle, it's added to most things because it gives a nice, hard, glossy finish. Maybe you could leave the carnauba out of the cutlers resin mix and just use beeswax.
Of course, decent wax polishes are often little more than beeswax, carnauba and turps...
Another thought Rich
If you can find some Damar resin - used in making fine varnishes etc. for Violins and other instruments. It dissolves nicely in various solvents and makes a strong(ish) but quite brittle glue.
It makes a great fire starter too - we used to collect loads of it to get wet wood going in the rainforest. It's got a very particular smell about it too- very evocative.
George
Rich,
Assuming you mixed a little charcoal from the fire into your resin (to help stop it being brittle) the only thing I can suggest is,
A - work it onto a warmed surface
or
B - melt a small amount of wax in with it.
The beauty of resin glue is that you can rewarm it to soften it as needed.
acw_akkermans
15-10-2003, 07:54
The more you re-heat it though, the less strong it gets... So be carefull with that tip. In order to make resin-glue less brittle, you may also wan to try to add charred and then ground egg-shell. That is what I use instead of charcoal.
Keith_Beef
15-10-2003, 10:04
Hi folks- I was messing around with pine glue at the weekend trying to get some fletches (Goose feathers) to stick to an arrow shaft without much success. I warmed the resin as gently as possible in a can in the embers of a fire until liquid, dipped the feather then stuck it to arrow shaft as quickly as possible. The resin sets in about 1.5 seconds! so you can't adjust and get big blobs - not ideal for streamlined arrows arrows !
So anybody out there know how to (1) thin the glue (2) stop it going off so damned fast ! or (3) a better suitable primitive glue ? :?:
Thanks for your advice
Rich
I've heard of mistletoe berries being used for glue, especially for catching small birds like thrushes and blackbirds. If you can stick a thrush's feet to a branch, then it should work for fletching. Try searching for "birdlime".
Suppliers of materials for cabinet makers should be able to provide fish glue (not for catching fishes), you might be able to make this yourself from fishbones.
Keith.
Dave Farrant
15-10-2003, 13:54
Just a couple of ideas for you
Try applying the Resin with a hot/warm knife (experiment with the right temp.) This would slow the setting time down as it would be still hot.
Probably not a good idea with your best knife though.
Also I like the animal sinew idea. But try Catgut (intestines of a sheep traditionally, any mammal would do) Surgeons still use this product in theatres as it slowly shrinks at it dries out. (This pulls the wound edges together) Thus as it dries out it could hold you fletches in place. Also giving you a lot more time to position them.
(Don't worry they only use a sterile version)
This reminds me of Making Flies (Salmon fishing).
Have fun experimenting
Roving Rich
15-10-2003, 15:17
Blymee I can see i'm gonna be busy.
I tried mixing in ash (not charcoal)(and got a gloopy mess) on the understanding that it acted as a hardener. I have heard the same of the cruched up eggshells but will have to try it. It did seemed to harden alright but was verrrrry brittle so it sounds like I overheated it. Would heating in a pan of water help or not hot enough?
I didn't want to heat my knife up so I used a piece of bone without much success, though it worked well as a scoop/pourer.The knife would be ideal as i could work all the gloopy bits down that stick to the bottom of the feathers. I will have to try heating the arrow aswell though its a bit stressful.
And I did tie the ends of the feathers with "artifical" sinew. but they bulged in the middle, and I was trying to straighten the curve in the feather......I bodged it with cotton but I,m not happy with it.
Antoniou mentions hide glue on his website for holding all his flint pieces into handles - would this be a better bet ?
Thanks you all your advice - greatfully recieved
Rich
You can also try adding birch oil to the resin. I seem to recall that the "iceman" found in the Alps some years ago used a resin/birch oil glue for his arrowheads.
The oil can be obtained by heating birch twigs or bark in a metal tin placed in a fire. You have a small hole in the bottom of the tin and another tin buried beneath for the oil to drain into as its distills from the birch.
Celtic Dragon
15-10-2003, 21:54
The oil can be obtained by heating birch twigs or bark in a metal tin placed in a fire. You have a small hole in the bottom of the tin and another tin buried beneath for the oil to drain into as its distills from the birch.
And to see this in action, and (donning his fireproof suit) watch Ray M's programme on the partisans during the ww2. It is a perfect tutorial.
Simon
Roving Rich
16-10-2003, 09:47
Top Tip Kev P, I remember seeing that Ray Mears programme.
That Ice man sounds like he had all sorts of interesting stuff on him.
Rich
For rabbit, fish and hide glues try www.dick-gmbh.com/ they also do a range of very interesting viking style and japanese axes.
Roving Rich
17-10-2003, 09:25
Hmmm Sorry George, I couldn't find anything on glues on that site.
Thanks
Rich :-(
giancarlo
17-10-2003, 12:46
I found these on there (only through search tho):
Animal Glues (http://www.dick-gmbh.com/shop/prodausgtabfs.asp?index=Animal Glues)
Not sure if that's what you're after tho..
Cheers
Carlo
Thanks Carlo
I was worried that I had given Rich a bad steer there!
Anyone who's interested in traditional woodworking should find something interesting on the site, they've got some interesting traditionally made japanese knives as well.
I'm interested in the difference between the different types of glue they sell though. I wonder what the difference between rabbit and hare glue is?
Anyone know?
George
Roving Rich
23-10-2003, 15:54
Thanks guys I did look honest.
Mmm i wonder what fishbladder glue smells like, better not go there,
scratch n sniff arrows anyone?
Rich
I wonder what the difference between rabbit and hare glue is?
The speed at which it goes off? :roll: :lol:
I wonder what the difference between rabbit and hare glue is?
The speed at which it goes off? :roll: :lol:
:rolmao:
mr dazzler
03-09-2004, 23:09
I agree roving rich;
I was amazed to see the sophistication of iceman's clothing and tools etc, all woven etc. A fantastic example of total bushcraft. I once tried to make an elbow adze (before he was found) and was amazed to see the similarity. Also similar to Ancient Egyptian axe as well.
Might be an interesting project to re-create icemans kit using modern materials but still using ancient construction methods. It's quite moving just looking at the pictures of his kit, and realising that for him bushcraft was a total continuous reality. It must have looked stunning when it was all new.
MR D
bushwacker bob
05-09-2004, 01:58
yep Oetzi was a bushcrafter. :super:
I use it a lot - you need to add some beeswax to keep it flexible - about half and half is a good starting point, melt the wax first and add the resin in small pieces. It was usual to add finely powdered material to this as a tempering agent - dry dung, grass fibres charcoal etc. For fixing metal into wood some recipies also included sulphur - this corrodes the metal a bit and the corrosion products expand fixing the metal in place.
the beeswax/pine mix also makes a great varnish if you dissolve it in hot turpentine.
Birch tar is wonderful stuff, you can replace the pine resin with birch tar if you boil the birch tar down until it starts to set, it forms a more flexible pitch and can be used without further additions.
To use them just reheat - you can store small blobs on the end of sticks to save having to reheat the whole lot.
Oh - just in case, these methods involve boiling flammable substances - best to do it outside in small batches with some means of fire control - wet towel or something - never chuck water on it ( especialy turpentine ).
Realgar
You can make water soluble glue from cherry resin dissolved in almost boiling water. It takes about the same time as PVA to go off,
I’ve used it for fletching to keep the feather in place before it can be fixed on with thread. When applied to things like small whippings it keeps everything locked down and gives it a varnished appearance when dry. I was trying once to make really small natural hooks for coarse fishing. The cherry resin came in really handy for keeping all my whippings in place while I made a few others before I added the pine pitch.
Hope it helps
:-P
Metala Cabinet
07-09-2004, 12:18
If Oetzi was such a bushcrafter then perhaps archaeologists should be out searching for his home which would have cupboards stuffed with kit: numerous stone knives, a couple of backpacks, a selection of clothes for all seasons and so on.
Are you suggesting bushcrafters are fixated on kit?
Blue bell bulbs...Who'd a thought of that..
That’s a new one for me. Anyone tried it yet?
Making all these tree resin glues when a perfectly suitable glue was waiting under your butt.
:confused:
As far as I know native bluebells are protected under Section 13 (2) of the Wildlife and Countryside Act (1981). I know this was true last year (2003) and I guess they are still on the list. Can anyone enlighten me?
Please also remember that digging up plant roots without the landowners permission is theft in the eyes of the law...... though you can buy bulbs ;-) they are mainly sold to conservation groups who go out and plant them....
:-)
Ed