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Did anyone see the programme on naturalist Charlie Russell and his work with the Grizzlies bears of Kamtchatka last Night on BBC2?
I think it was remarquably moving and showed quite clearly that we humans could lives quite close lives with the wild creatures of this world if only we made a bit of effort, without continually killing everything that move to make money and destroying habitats. :cussing: :soapbox:
What do you think?
http://writerscafe.ca/book_blogs/writers/charlie-russell_grizzly-heart.php (http://)
Bears or any other wild animal, stays a wild animal and thus unpredictable. and an unpredictable clamp is not as bad as a unpredictable bear. So I think it is very irrisponsible to stimulate this kind of behaviour.
Grizzly man had similar ideas. he died.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0427312/
I really enjoyed that programme......
penvisser
09-11-2006, 13:07
Bears or any other wild animal, stays a wild animal and thus unpredictable. and an unpredictable clamp is not as bad as a unpredictable bear. So I think it is very irrisponsible to stimulate this kind of behaviour.
Grizzly man had similar ideas. he died.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0427312/
I totally agree, it looks very nice but at some day........
:sadwavey:
Great programme, inspirational stuff, the world needs more people like him.
There's always a depressing side to these programmes though e.g. those b*****d poachers determined to wipe them out, makes me sick:cussing:
Should be dealt some of their own medicine :AR15firin
dommyracer
09-11-2006, 13:54
I watched the show last night and thought it was great stuff.
Regarding the thoughts about the dangers of living like this, I guess thats to be expected. If you choose to live as part of a wild animal's society, then the possibility of injury or death is the same as it is for any member of that animal's society.
If you fully except that you are putting yourself in a position where you may be killed like a bear, then you're not being irresponsible IMO.
We separate ourselves from the animal society and have the notion that it is 'safer' to be around humans and away from the bears, wolves, lions, tigers etc. but how many humans are attacked, killed or hurt by other humans? Millions.
I think I'd rather live among the bears in Kamchatka
gregorach
09-11-2006, 13:59
Yeah, I watched it... with some degree of conflicted feelings. Sure, he's doing good work, but I have to wonder whether getting the bears habituated to being around humans is good for their long-term prospects. I would worry that those bears would be much more likely to suffer at the hands of poachers or the plain ignorant, since they haven't learnt to fear and avoid humans.
I think the difference between this guy and the infamous "grizzly man" is that the latter really didn't seem to have much understanding of bear behaviour or biology.
OldJimbo
09-11-2006, 14:48
Just what does living close entail?
gregorach
09-11-2006, 15:30
Really very close indeed - he was looking after cubs whose mothers had been shot by poachers, I think (I missed the start). Basically acting as a surrogate mother - upto and including putting himself between the cubs and an adult male.
I guess its fine for us to say these things, we dont have to live with bears.
If you read accounts of natives in bear country, they are very wary of them.
BTW, would an old world bear be a grizzly? I thought they were different subspiecies of the brown.
demographic
09-11-2006, 18:09
I saw that also, good stuff indeed.
The old guy was good to watch.Although I understand gregroach's sentements regarding him possibly not doing much good by getting other bears used to humans, I suppose its a difficult balancing act to get right.
It was much better than the one about Timothy Treadwell called Grizzly Man (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0427312/) who came across as a complete numpty who managed to get himself and Amie Huguenard added to the bear menu.
I felt sorry for Amie Huguenard but on the other hand I can't really blame a bear for killing Timothy Treadwell as I imagine anyone who spent much time with him would be tempted to do the same.
We separate ourselves from the animal society and have the notion that it is 'safer' to be around humans and away from the bears, wolves, lions, tigers etc. but how many humans are attacked, killed or hurt by other humans? Millions.
I think I'd rather live among the bears in Kamchatka
I agree with you. I wonder, in the grand scheme of thing, how many people have been killed by bears, lets say, over the last century :confused: How many bear were killed by people in the same period of time? and how many people were killed by people..... :(
Animals kill but either for food or to protect themselves or their young.
Human on the other hand kill animals for many more reasons: for food, fun, profit, malice, or just because they can. And I am not talking about native people who generally tended to kill for the same reasons animal kill.
Human reasons for killing other humans are too vile and numerous to contemplete :(
For my part, spiritually, I need to know there are still animals like the bear, the wolf, the whale who live their lives in the wild, and I am glad there are people like Charlie Russell who try to mend some of the damage we human cause, in our own name, in full knowledge that we are causing the damage,and in the majority of the time, without caring.
OldJimbo
10-11-2006, 02:26
A really good book about bears is "No Room for Bears" by Frank Dufresne who was director of the Game Commission in Alaska. It's well worth a read to get an overall perspective on bears.
directdrive
10-11-2006, 02:43
Hi, there: Yes and no. The Grizz is a damned dangerous predator that will eat you and your loved ones in a New York minute. Yes, we can learn to live with them. No, we can't ever become so enamored of them that we treat them as less than what they are. Would you sleep with a rattler?
Best, Bruce
directdrive
10-11-2006, 02:45
Hi, Jimbo: Hope you and yours are well. Good to hear your input on anything. Your website is TOPS!! Bruce
Go to: www.oldjimbo.com
Carcajou Garou
10-11-2006, 04:29
Being close to a wild animal the only question is not if but when you will get tagged.
Then a whole slew of animals will pay with their lives.
Like the Grizzly Man, at least 3 bears were shot near the area as they had no way of telling who did the killing and who was just an opertunistic feeder.
Bears loose!!!
gregorach
10-11-2006, 09:42
I agree with you. I wonder, in the grand scheme of thing, how many people have been killed by bears, lets say, over the last century :confused: How many bear were killed by people in the same period of time? and how many people were killed by people..... :(
Yeah, it may sound callous, but I'm more concerned about the bears than the people. People have choices, while the bears don't really. If a person makes a choice that leads to them being killed by bears, that's their lookout.
People are a much greater danger to bears than bears are to people.
Jojo, you are underestimating animals if you think they are in any way emotionaly different to people.
(and I wont go into this because I have other things to say)
I actualy know someone who has been there (that place with the unspellable name)
She says its very wild and varied country, used to be owned by the millitary so no one got in.
some badly polluted heavy indusrty areas, the people who live there are very poor, and have no hope for the future beyond getting out. (she says that alcoholism is so rife its unbelievable, but you can hardly blame the locals, they have no other solace.)
(this sounds a bit like the Kola peninsula, which some of you may know)
Yes, its seething with BEARS
So something for the locals involving enviromental clean up and eco tourism (much as im dubious about this notion) would be a good thing.
However some nutter playing with cubs and facing down adults makes better TV, doesnt it?
OldJimbo
10-11-2006, 21:28
Thanks, Bruce! Things are fine here and depending on the grand-daughters and their plans for college, I might even be retiring and spending even more time outdoors..
Bear-people relationships are far more complicated than would appear - and so the book I suggested. Things go far beyond the simple triggering of a response and then suffering an attack. There are no simple answers, and our way of thinking gets in the way.
Bear attacks happen when people get between a bear and some food that it's defending. People here still go jogging along logging roads in hunting season, though, when bears can be guarding piles of moose guts. You are really not much better off walking slowly with a magnum at the ready, because there's not going to be a build up with threats from each side.
The same goes for mother and cubs, or walking around a camp at night when a bear is also wandering around checking it out.
That goes against most people's feelings. The bear isn't playing fair or being reasonable. But that's just tthe way it is.
Bears will go after kids just like they'd go after anything small vulnerable and tasty. But everything will depend on if the feeding frenzy for winter has begun. Kids get frightened and run which really complicates things, so the first step is to put a bullet in the bear's head. For sure that's not totally fair or reasonable either - but it's the way things are. Other times bears will come up out of curiousity and wouldn't bother kids. After a while of being around bears, a person will easily recognize when bears are in hunting mode.
Sometimes things are complicated..
A friend of mine got into bow hunting and decided to add a bear. So he went and found a bear which is pretty easy here. He stalked it up a hill trying to get a good shot. The bear then turned around and stalked him right back down to the truck. Arrows don't kill fast so he had a very very exciting time. When he got to the truck he took out a rifle and had a choice. Usually people kill what makes them fearful, but he couldn't shoot that bear.
I got faced down by a little black on a creek and I couldn't shoot it, but instead faced it down. Now facing down a bear, even a little one, at a few feet is a pretty stupid thing to do, because a moment of weakness and it will be snacking. For sure though, there is the point that a magnum slug gun at a few feet is pretty thorough. Years later the best I can come up with is that I became part of that little facing down ritual, and I just had to see if I could face that bear down.
Strangely, that's not the first time that's happened. Decades ago my wife and kids walked ahead from truck to a little creek while I was loading the rifle. Next was yells, wife and kids running past me, pumping a cartridge into the 30-06 pump rifle that I luckily had at the time, and having a chasing bear come to halt at the muzzle. In those days I regarded bears about the same way most people would regard the meat counter if they were giving away free steaks, so I still wonder about what passed and why both the bear and I backed off.
Years ago I went to murder a bear. I wanted nothing more than to exterminate it and have its body drop in a nice open place where other bears feeding on it wouldn't pose a problem for people fishing the river. That one was a big black who had tried to brace me on two occasions where poor light made things uncertain at close range. That one knew his business and I saw a real problem to people, because he was in a popular fishing spot. The only problem I did see was where he had to be killed. Obligingly, though, on a nice morning he went and stood next to the ranging pole that I'd put up in the best possible spot. I couldn't kill him like that, though, and instead harassed him out of the area. If anyone thinks that's a story of morals, then they've never attempted to harass a skilled bear.
A few stories - but I can certainly see where otherwise rational people feel that they have some sort of "link" with bears. I've known people who have been killed by bears and others who have been terribly mauled. I choose not to hunt now, but I've eaten enough bear and if things get tough in retirement I might be eating lots more. I might have a lot more reverence than people shopping the meat counter, but get it I will. Explaining how I'd be able to hunt anmals after years of studying them is difficult. It comes down to the fact that I've got hundreds of stories but few explanations, even for myself.
Too Much Kit To Carry
10-11-2006, 21:32
I really enjoyed that programme......
D'oh - I managed to miss it - not really into Tv and I always miss something that would float my boat :(
Did anyone tape it??
Phil.
Dougster
10-11-2006, 22:24
[/QUOTE]I felt sorry for Amie Huguenard but on the other hand I can't really blame a bear for killing Timothy Treadwell as I imagine anyone who spent much time with him would be tempted to do the same. [/QUOTE]
Watching the film, I am ashamed to say I willed the bear to hurry up.
Jojo, you are underestimating animals if you think they are in any way emotionaly different to people.However some nutter playing with cubs and facing down adults makes better TV, doesnt it?
Hi Tengu. This just show the limitations of the written word :) I certainly was not trying to say that. I am pretty certain that most animals do have "emotions" for want of a better word, just like we do, fear, pleasure, love for our offsprings, anger when threatened,etc...
I watched a programme on the african elephant a couple of weeks, in Kenya I think it was: there the Masai People believe that elephants are the only animal who have a soul. What is a soul? How can we human tell whether any animal have one or not? Its probably impossible to say for sure, whether any animal has a soul or not. Is the soul just an intellectual concept anyway to explain that we are aware of ourselves :confused:
In the absence of proof, I am inclined to think that some animal do indeed have one. (no doubt I am going to be mauled for saying this :D )
What is a nutter :eek: ?? I have for many years (too many) worked in psychiatry and met a few real nutters.. and I don't think that naturalist is one. What he is, is someone who does not follow the trend and puts himself where his mouth is. Not doubt he accepts that in doing what he is doing, there is always the risk to be attacked and killed by the animals he is trying to help in some way.
In my job, it happened a few time that I felt in danger from some of my patients, but it's just something you have to accept, its part and parcel of the job.
Hi Old Jimbo. I had a good look at your site and Its real good.
Old Jimbo has experiences that I have not got( and he lives in British Columbia, the devil! :) !, I wish I was there rather than here :rolleyes: ) he has been in the situation where his life was endangerd and yet he , for whatever reasons, did not kill.
All animals, including us, need to protect ourself from harm, and sometimes that entails killing.
As for me, I can only think intellectually, (because I really don't know how I would react faced in the same situation) and I think I would try to kill rather than being killed myself.
I don't have a problem with the hunter who goes out with respect and acceptance that the rules are differents, the animal he hunts may well get him before he gets the animal.
My biggest objection is the wholesale exploitation and destruction of species by humans. We really have no excuse, we know the damage we cause and yet we carry on. We are fouling the only nest we have got (the Earth) as such a speed that I can't see that it will take very long before we suffer big time.
Some scientist (probably a nutter :D ) some while back came up with the idea that we humans will be on this planet for at least some 2 millions years because that was the length of time other species have lasted before they became extinct! I can't see that happening somehow. Maybe I am just a pessimist! :D
I regularly play in a region that is premium bear habitat, and lived in it for much of my life. I have personally encountered two black bears on foot, at a distance and never seen a grizzly when I wasn't in a car. I have come across steaming piles of grizzly scat spaced along the same trail we were hiking, and (on another occasion) found bear prints metres from our tent when we woke in the morning.
I'd recommend "Bear Attacks" by Stephen Herrero. He is a bear biologist with the University of Calgary that has compiled this great resource on bear psychology and human encounters. There are some interesting statistics that mostly point to surprising bears as one of the prime cause of encounters. An example is that there has never been a recorded attack on anyone travelling in groups larger than 5. Ever.
What it boils down to is that if the bear feels threatened (surprised, standing on a carcass, mother and cubs), the odds of an encounter are high. That's not to say that anybody gets hurt, but you will see them and they might bluff charge or all out attack.
In the end, I don't worry very much about the bears. The cougars, on the other hand; There's a predator that will stalk you with the intent to kill you and eat you. And they're very, very good at it. Good thing they only generally go for critters about the size of a dog or child. Good thing for me, anyways.
OldJimbo
11-11-2006, 19:29
Here the bear population is so high that many lose territory and are pushed into town where they cause trouble ripping through garbage and fruit trees. One of my friends heard a commotion in the kitchen and thought it was her aged mother falling. She went rushing in and a black bear removed her screen door escaping.. The sad part is that town bears have to be shot because there's no free territory in the bush to put them.
We have deep gullies running through town so we see bears, moose popping up around houses all the time.
I see a decline in big grizzlies which I can only attribute to poaching. Years ago when hunting was legal, there were lots of big bears around as evidenced by tracks and sightings. I haven't even seen track evidence of huge ones in years. Now I've had lots of close calls on heart attacks on coming up from fly fishing to see huge tracks where a grizzly has come very close to watch without my suspecting anything - but I really miss them.
Cougars are bad news if they go predatory on pets - since they work up from there. I'd suspect that it's more of a problem than most people realize, since many are removed fast when people get scared for their kids.
Human predatory behavior in bears is scary. I was very unwilling to accept that it existed since bears will sneak up close to look people over. Unfortunately I've come to think otherwise. I've built up quite a lot of what I thought was pretty good knowledge about bears. I've spent lots of time watching them over decades, but then something happens which proves my conclusions wrong.