Rutting Friday

[Klenchblaize]

The fallow rutt has been a little half-hearted this year - at least that was until last Friday when I entered a wood adjoining the ruins of a Sussex monastery on what must be the finest Autumn morning this year.

Having been fortunate to account for a perfect cull-quality buck just 50 yards from where we parked our vehicles we continued our stalk as shafts of golden sunlight jabbed through the ancient chestnut and oak. Approaching higher ground the graceful canopies of similarly mature pine seemed to float above the slowly clearing mist. Several mature bucks on known rutting stands were now giving their all and elsewhere the clatter of antlers spoke of others.

Glassing along a ride we froze as a gaggle of doe’s and their not so young offspring sampled the delights of a well-tongued mineral block. I steadied the rifle with aid of a single hazel stick, as there was always the chance that another cull buck was not too far away. Eventually they moved off and my host decided now would be a good time to demonstrate his prowess at “rattling”. For those who are not familiar with this practice such entails using a pair of cast or otherwise antlers to mimic the clash of duelling bucks. In less than 5 minutes I caught sight of a pair of huge antlers atop a mere three-year-old frame heading strait down the ride towards us! Instinctively I lowered the rifle and dropped to a crouch. For the next 15 minutes we studied this fine buck as he came within 10 yards of us before realising something was not quite right and, after shouting at us, retreated with that delightful even-footed bounce that has to be seen to be fully appreciated. This was definitely not a cull-quality buck!

And so went the rest of this perfect October morning until it was time to find a cool home for our buck.

Hope this gives a flavour of stalking during the rut and please remember almost as much enjoyment is to be had when shooting with a camera.

Cheers
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d46/klenchblaize/DSC02190.jpg

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d46/klenchblaize/DSC02188.jpg

[hollowdweller]

What is your rifle?

[dommyracer]

Nice thread Klenchblaize, fascinating animal and I am very interested in stalking - I hope it is something I will be able to practice one day.

With that said, while I am completely not against deer hunting for the purposes of culling, I have to say that I do find the practice of 'posing' a dead deer like that a little unsavoury and disrespectful to the animal. But that's just me.

Anyway, with that said, I'd like to ask some questions of you:-

What constitutes a cull quality buck? What sort of criteria are you looking for?

[Klenchblaize]

In a rush to catch train so will answer questisons later. Happy though for Moderator to delete "posed" pictures if that's what the site feels is best.

Cheers

[11binf]

you lucky dog!! terrific looking buck ..nice rack.. :) ..as for me i did not get drawn this year for deer or cow elk...but my buddys did get drawn and i went to help with camp etc....well maybe next year i'll get drawn....again fine looking deer....vince g. 11b inf.

[Moonraker]

TBH I read this thread expecting something about listening to the stag rut rather than a picture of a dead buck.

I have no problem myself with the thread, though I do agree with dommyracer, but this post would be better off in the 'Fair Game' section given the previous discussion on dead animals offending some people which we should respect.

[Exbomz]

Excellent photos and I must disagree with comments about the photo. I'll declare an interest - I do not shoot them, but do enjoy eating them, and have had some wonderful venison already this year.

The photo shows a clean shot, and the beauty of the animal, not disrespectful to it or in bad taste IMHO. Meat comes from animals and I do not think it bad taste to show that.

[Moonraker]

Excellent photos and I must disagree with comments about the photo. I'll declare an interest - I do not shoot them, but do enjoy eating them, and have had some wonderful venison already this year.

The photo shows a clean shot, and the beauty of the animal, not disrespectful to it or in bad taste IMHO. Meat comes from animals and I do not think it bad taste to show that.The point I was making is that a while ago some members expressed a desire that images of dead animals etc were not posted either without some warning of the contents of the thread or in a separate forum for such topics, which is why the 'Fair Game' forum was created.

I too enjoy venison and also appreciated discussion on dressing animals etc but this can be done in a way that does not offend others who prefer not to, unnecessarily. It's just a matter of it going in the right place.

The other point that dommyracer raised, and I agreed with, was that it is not the image of a dead animal that is the issue, but rather the manner in which is it portrayed.

[Wayland]

Have to admit I was rather surprised by the content of the thread too.

I have absolutely no problem with seeing dead animals. I have hunted for the pot myself in the past, but there are many here who prefer not to be confronted with such images without warning.

There was an agreement some time ago that such images would be posted in the fair game section or posted with a warning in the title.

[Doc]

I do not believe the photograph is disrespectful. The hunter is not smiling triumphantly and he is holding the animal carefully so that we can see its majestic nature (look at his hands- he is holding it as you would something valuable and respected).

I may be biased here as I have recently taken up deer stalking and have been very impressed with the experienced stalkers who have freely given me much aid and advice - including Klenchblaize who has been generous of his time and knowledge.

Obviously different people have different views and a militant vegan might regard even a picture of a cooked meat dish offensive. The responses to the thread have been rather variable which suggests to me the real issue is peoples perceptions rather than the picture itself. Interestingly a deer stalker was recently questioned by police after Tesco staff processing his photos were concerned by pictures of dead deer.

I'm sure a mod could move it to fair game if it is thought appropriate. There have, however, been a few threads on deer in 'Out and about' - as you might expect as we are in the rutting season.

Dommyracer - stalking is much more accessible than you might think. In fact it is cheaper and easier to obtain than many other forms of shooting. PM me for more info if you wish.

[dommyracer]

Sorry guys, I didn't mean for this thread to get derailed into a discussion about Klenchblaize's photo, maybe I should have held onto that thought.

I agree that its, probably better if all the dead beasties are in the 'fair game' section, at least then folk will know what they are clicking on.

[Doc]

Looking in the archives, it seems wayland is right and it is ok in fair game but not elsewhere: http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=5950&highlight=dead+animals

Couldn't actually remember this rule myself despite having been here a while, and given the recent deer threads on out and about, an understandable filing error. :)

Perhaps a mod could move it?

[sargey]

ok guys, not to worry, thread has been moved to the fair game section for all the comments as posted above.

great narrative on what must've been a very good morning.

cheers, and.

[Moonraker]

What constitutes a cull quality buck? What sort of criteria are you looking for?Good to see the thread in the proper forum. Thanks sargey.

I am also interested in that term. I guess it has to do with maintaining the age balance in the breeding group?

[dommyracer]

Bumping this one so we can hear Klenchblaize's response....

[Klenchblaize]

I can’t help feeling the fact that it was felt necessary to “bump” this post speaks volumes. I am grateful for the more positive response to my submission but feel its best that it now remains well and truly ‘buried’ in the “Fair Game” section as felt so important by some.

It was never my intention to turn this thread into either a “what gun is that” or “deer hunting justification” debate. Neither did I set out to offend, but call me an Old Reactionary if you will, it nonetheless saddens me to think that anyone interested in bushcraft and the wider outdoors would be unable to handle these images. But then I would have to confess coming from a point of view that, not wishing to stray too far off topic, takes issue with Ray Mears’ wholly unnecessary and grossly over-apologetic rhetoric when attempting to justify his shooting of a deer in one of his TV programmes.

Cull-quality animals can mean different things to different people and different groups under different conditions. For instance the luxury of having the ability to not shoot an animal in a Sussex wood, as such “shows promise”, will not be the practice of a Forestry Commission Ranger struggling to meet his cull figure for any given species in the Highlands. Trust me on that one whatever you might read elsewhere!

There are many helpful sites on the web, The BDS being just one, where “Deer Management” theories may be studied. But I would AGAIN wish to make very CLEAR that I hunt because my heart and soul is never more uplifted than when I’m engaged in such and do not seek to justify my actions because deer culling is deemed necessary.

From now on I really will try and stick to subject matter that causes less controversy. And anyway, I too enjoy immensely talking about “kit” and “edged tools”!

Cheers

[stovie]

Actually Klenchblaize I for one didn't think it was controversial...but then i guess i am probably a like-minded individual...and when you say "...that I hunt because my heart and soul is never more uplifted than when I’m engaged in such..." I understand exactly what you mean...it is the "primitive" soul of bushcraft that is truely awakened...and when understood should have no reason to apologise.

Thank you for your reply :)

[Moonraker]

I can’t help feeling the fact that it was felt necessary to “bump” this post speaks volumes. I am grateful for the more positive response to my submission but feel its best that it now remains well and truly ‘buried’ in the “Fair Game” section as felt so important by some.
I am also not sure why the thread got 'bumped'? I didn't see why any 'response' or any type of justification was required as such.

I don't believe it is about 'burying' anything, simply that from previous agreement it was felt better that such threads were kept here so that those who may be offended by them could easily avoid them. It shows respect for other members, nothing more.

It was never my intention to turn this thread into either a “what gun is that” or “deer hunting justification” debate. Neither did I set out to offend, but call me an Old Reactionary if you will, it nonetheless saddens me to think that anyone interested in bushcraft and the wider outdoors would be unable to handle these images. But then I would have to confess coming from a point of view that, not wishing to stray too far off topic, takes issue with Ray Mears’ wholly unnecessary and grossly over-apologetic rhetoric when attempting to justify his shooting of a deer in one of his TV programmes.I enjoyed very much the eloquent description of the autumnal scene and find nothing needing justification in the practice of deer stalking. As I said above, it is not the posting of images which contain dead animals that bothered me, and indeed I find illustrations useful when people explain techniques for dressing an animal etc. It was the manner in which the animal was posed in the photographs that I felt uncomfortable with. It's just my personal view.

Cull-quality animals can mean different things to different people and different groups under different conditions. For instance the luxury of having the ability to not shoot an animal in a Sussex wood, as such “shows promise”, will not be the practice of a Forestry Commission Ranger struggling to meet his cull figure for any given species in the Highlands. Trust me on that one whatever you might read elsewhere! Thanks for explaining that.


There are many helpful sites on the web, The BDS being just one, where “Deer Management” theories may be studied. But I would AGAIN wish to make very CLEAR that I hunt because my heart and soul is never more uplifted than when I’m engaged in such and do not seek to justify my actions because deer culling is deemed necessary.I'll check out the sites. Like I said you have nothing to justify from my view for practising a skilled and time-honoured sport.

From now on I really will try and stick to subject matter that causes less controversy. And anyway, I too enjoy immensely talking about “kit” and “edged tools”! I hope not. The site would be poorer for it ;)

[dommyracer]

Klenchblaize, I wasn't taking the ****, I was genuinely interested to know what the phrase 'cull quality' meant, I'm not trying to get a rise out of you or anything

I'm sorry that what was just an expression of my impression of your photo was seen as anything else.

You don't have to justify your actions to me, and I have never asked you to. And please don't stop posting pics or talking about hunting, its something I enjoy reading and learning about.

Thanks,

Dominic