Gun talk

[Squidders]

American Barrett light .50 cal rifle (no real bushcraft value but I would like one)
American 1 qt water bottle and metal mug
Swedish army parka
british army basha
RCMP hat

[Lurch]

American Barrett light .50 cal rifle (no real bushcraft value but I would like one)

Oorah!!!

Me too, but I think it is actually a civvy rifle adopted for military use rather than t'other way around.

[rik_uk3]

SMLE .303
Bergen long back
British 24 hour ration packs (way better than MRE's)

[Spacemonkey]

Nice to see a few fans of the old SMELLY... ;)

[longshot]

Oorah!!!

Me too, but I think it is actually a civvy rifle adopted for military use rather than t'other way around.


do you mean the Barrett m107 rifle? actually i was just watching a show on weapons and the 107 was develped by mr Barrett for the US military as a long range sniping weapon. there are other barrett rifles but i do believe they were designed as a military weapon but was quickly adopted by the civilan shooting fraturnity as a rifle to have.

dean

[Tadpole]

According to online sources the M107 is just a rebadged version of the Barrett Firearms Company m82. Developed in 1982 but not sold in any number until taken up by the Swedish army in 1989, the rifle attracted the attention of the US military,and it was deployed for use in the Gulf War. In current military use, the later model M82A1 is designated as the M107 due to political reasons.

[Lurch]

do you mean the Barrett m107 rifle? actually i was just watching a show on weapons and the 107 was develped by mr Barrett for the US military as a long range sniping weapon. there are other barrett rifles but i do believe they were designed as a military weapon but was quickly adopted by the civilan shooting fraturnity as a rifle to have.

dean

I got my info from an interview with Ronnie Barrett (top fella!) on NRA News ages ago.
For more info on the origins you can read the article in American R i fleman here (http://www.barrettrifles.com/news/AmericanRiflemanApr-2004Models82A1M107.pdf)

[Minotaur]

there are other barrett rifles but i do believe they were designed as a military weapon but was quickly adopted by the civilan shooting fraturnity as a rifle to have.
dean

For hunting of the very rare armor plated moose.

[Minotaur]

do you mean the Barrett m107 rifle? actually i was just watching a show on weapons and the 107 was develped by mr Barrett for the US military as a long range sniping weapon. there are other barrett rifles but i do believe they were designed as a military weapon but was quickly adopted by the civilan shooting fraturnity as a rifle to have.

dean

I actually thought it was a counter sniper weapon. The 50 cal round was used in Vietnam for this purpose, vehicle weapons used single shot.

I like US Alice webbing and british 58 webbing. I tend to pick and chose from what people say is worth having a look at or from Militarys who operate in a perticular terrian.

[Spacemonkey]

I got my info from an interview with Ronnie Barrett (top fella!) on NRA News ages ago.
For more info on the origins you can read the article in American R i fleman here (http://www.barrettrifles.com/news/AmericanRiflemanApr-2004Models82A1M107.pdf)

Haha! NRA News and American R i fleman really crack me up. A very entertaining read, though I'm not sure that's the intention!

[Lurch]

Haha! NRA News and American R i fleman really crack me up. A very entertaining read, though I'm not sure that's the intention!

Um, why?
Are you perhaps a 3%er?

[Tadpole]

Um, why?
Are you perhaps a 3%er?
what is a 3% er? and what does it have to do with finding the NRA funny :(

[Spacemonkey]

Haha! NRA News and American R i fleman really crack me up. A very entertaining read, though I'm not sure that's the intention!

Um, why?
Are you perhaps a 3%er?
Well that depends on which version of '3%er' your talking about! ;)
The NRA (of America...) mags are full of American Pride and patriotism; nothing wrong with that, but living in a country where patriotism only surfaces when there's a world cup on :rolleyes: it appears a little, well, funny.. The Armed Citizen columns are also amusing. I read one were some hoodlum held up a 60 year old woman, and she decked him with one punch! Imagine the stick he got when in the clink...! The review and historical articles in A R are really good though, but Shotgu n News does it better, I think. The stuff they can buy makes me very envious...

[Martyn]

Gents,,

When the OP asked about favorite kit from each army, I dont think he was asking for a discourse on the relative merits of the G36 over the M16.

Can the gun-lovers let this topic run it's intended course please? I think the OP was looking for choice picks of outdoor kit from army surplus accross the world - it's a good thread idea and deserves not to be hijacked. Perhaps the NRA crowd can start their own "my favorite gun" thread or something?

Stand easy. :)

[Spacemonkey]

Gents,,

When the OP asked about favorite kit from each army, I dont think he was asking for a discourse on the relative merits of the G36 over the M16.

Can the gun-lovers let this topic run it's intended course please? I think the OP was looking for choice picks of outdoor kit from army surplus accross the world - it's a good thread idea and deserves not to be hijacked. Perhaps the NRA crowd can start their own "my favorite gun" thread or something?

Stand easy. http://72.36.134.230/community/images/smilies/smile.gif

Oh! But.. but.. but.. but.... they are part of army kit...!





...and any fool knows the G36 beats the M16 hands down...:p

[Lurch]

what is a 3% er? and what does it have to do with finding the NRA funny :(

OK, last point on this to be polite and answer your question before Martyn goes postal....

A 3%er is someone who watches NRANews.com to be outraged by it or to keep an eye on the 'enemy'. It comes from the online polls that Cam (the host) runs which always include an option for the gun grabbers to vote for. This option tends to come out at 3% of the total. A 3%er might find the NRA funny because they would find their position and logic laughable.

NRA Lifemember!

[Martyn]

OK, last point on this to be polite and answer your question before Martyn goes postal....



Crack on, I've split the thread.

[Buckshot]

NRA Lifemember!
Lurch, Are you talking US NRA or UK?
Personaly I don't think the UK version is worth the paper it's written on unless you purely target sh oot and don't care about anyone else.
They had a very blinkered approach to the SLR ban and the commonwealth games - and no doubt the olympics


Mark

[Lurch]

US version. I have aspirations to flit off and I'd like there to be a second amendment worth having if I ever get there. Plus the US voice and influence in the UN helps see of some of the UN's wacky ideas on 'gun control'.
I'm not a member of the UK one at all. Whilst they are just starting to sound a little bit sensible the forthcoming merger with CPSA and NRSA will completely see an end to that. CPSA would sell their grannies if they thought it would distract attention from shooting discs with shotguns for five minutes.

[Buckshot]

Hmm Agreed
Very sad that's the official governing body for the UK! :banghead: :yikes:

[Squidders]

Oorah!!!

Me too, but I think it is actually a civvy rifle adopted for military use rather than t'other way around.

The gun may well be but the good ammo is only available to the mil and no other gun uses the .50 cal Raufoss Mk 211 round to my knowledge.

[Lurch]

Hand load.

[Squidders]

Hand load.

Dude, i'm not bright at the best of times and while I would love a .50 with incendiary round ammunition, I'm not clued up on guns... so my question is... hand load? ;)

[Lurch]

Well not in the UK obviously!

[Squidders]

Well not in the UK obviously!

I still don't understand - Sorry.

[Lurch]

Actually a quick search leads me to think you could buy the assembled round in the US without being military.
I was thinking that you might be able to buy the tip and assemble without extra authority but that seems unnecessary.
In the UK you'd need to be the MOD to buy such a round or convince your local authority that you had a large Godzilla problem on your property.

[British Red]

Squidders,

Hand loading is the practice of "rolling your own" ammo.

Basically you take used (or new) brass (aka the cartridge case)

You pop out the used primer (if re-loading). This is done with a press and die (think something that looks like a manual beer pump with a carefully machined tube inside that accepts that size of case)

So - you De-cap (remove primer), re-size the case and flare open the mouth. Put a new primer in, add a carefully weighed or measured amount of the right powder (there are tables to help with this), put a head in the top of the case, crimp closed, Roberts your mums bruvver.

The advantage of reloading is that you can "tune" the round to your rifle. Got a short barrel? Use a faster burning powder to get the right velocity. Got a long heavy barrel? Use slower powder to even the pressure curve. You can play with powder types, weights, head weight and shape, primer type etc. to get the best possible round for your rifle.

Red

Oh - and I'd rather have a Steyr Scout BTW...oh hang on ...I have :D
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/9562/scout1lw7.jpg

[British Red]

Lurch, Squidders

There is a UK club (the FCSA- Fifty Calibre Shooters Assoc) that fire .50 in the UK at Sennybridge and a limited number of other ranges. Generally only ball ammo is permitted on a section 1 ticket though

http://www.fcsa.co.uk/

Red

[Squidders]

Lurch, Squidders

There is a UK club (the FCTS - Fifty Calibre Target Shooters) that fire .50 in the UK at Sennybridge and a limited number of other ranges. Generally only ball ammo is permitted on a section 1 ticket though

Red

Cheers Red, i'm lost with the terminology ;o)

Do you have anything belt fed? :lmao:

[British Red]

Squidders,

No I love proper target shooting - it really is a very inclusive sport - I shot with my Girlfriend (who is better than me) plus people in their eighties to teenagers. Guys who are deaf and others who have spinal injuries. Its great to find a sport at which everyone can compete on an equal footing!

Belt fed implies full automatic - this is normally prohibitted in the UK (section 5) as is semi automatic (fire once and the rifle chambers another cartridge automatically) other than for .22RF and shotgun. I do miss the sem rifles as they were fun to shoot and there were a number of useful features to a semi. Never owned anything belt fed though :)

Red

[British Red]

Oh...ball ammo - think "solid"...not expanding (only permitted for hunting use) or incendiary (special license needed)

Red

[Klenchblaize]

Gents, Perhaps the NRA crowd can start their own "my favorite gun" thread or something? Stand easy. :)

Good to see even Moderators have a sense of humour! Or did you really mean to say: “Perhaps the NRA crowd can start their own My Favourite Gun thread or something” on another web site??

Cheers

[elma]

what you want is an accuracy international AW 338 lapua magnum and a nightforce scope. :approve: :AR15firin

[addyb]

Seeing as this is a "Gun Nut" thread, I figure I'd throw down a link...for the more scholarly minded because everybody loves firearm encyclopedias. :)

You can all thank me later! http://world.guns.ru/main-e.htm

Adam

[Klenchblaize]

what you want is an accuracy international AW 338 lapua magnum and a nightforce scope. :approve: :AR15firin

Only one problem with that:
You can’t use it (for zeroing, practice or load development) on an MOD approved range such as Camp Bisley!

"Urgent Safety Notice - .338 Rifles
NEW RANGE DANGER AREA RESTRICTIONS FOR .338" (8.6mm) RIFLES
"Range Safety Notice 06/05", dated 25th July 2005, has been issued by the Land Ranges Working Party (responsible for safety on ranges throughout the UK). This was received by the NRA on 30th August. "Range Safety Notices" are issued in advance of amendments to JSP 403, and are to be implemented immediately on receipt of the notice.

This Range Safety Notice contains the new "Weapon Danger Area (WDA) Template" for the .338" (8.6mm) Long Range Rifle. Despite the fact that the MV and ME limits of this rifle fall within the normal limits for a Gallery Range, the designated minimum length of the Range Danger Area (RDA) for this rifle is 3,700 metres (4,034 yards). Stickledown and Century ranges have RDA lengths of 2,900 and 1,830 metres respectively, and the new WDA template for the .338" rifle clearly exceeds both of these. In the case of Stickledown the WDA template runs well beyond Red Road into the housing estate beyond, and in the case of Century it overlaps either the Clay ranges on the LHS or Short/Long Siberia (and Furze Farm) on the RHS. It is therefore regretted that an immediate ban must be placed on the use of .338? (8.6mm) Long Range Rifles on any of the Bisley ranges. No "down-loaded" ammunition will be permitted. There will be no exceptions to this rule, and the Range Safety Regulations (Edition 4, dated 01 September 2005) have been amended accordingly."





Cheers

[Lurch]

Lurch, Squidders

There is a UK club (the FCSA- Fifty Calibre Shooters Assoc) that fire .50 in the UK at Sennybridge and a limited number of other ranges. Generally only ball ammo is permitted on a section 1 ticket though

http://www.fcsa.co.uk/

Red

Yer. I know.

I'd have .50 tomorrow, but they're a whole load of cash to buy and feed.
Multishot shotgun and a lever action .357 first.
:cool:

[British Red]

Lurch,

You can play with my .357 if you like. I do keep toying with a little practical S/G - theres an active group at our club doing it and I have a renewal coming up next year so I may have to succumb to an 870 or 1100 or similar :). I do like the .50s but I'd only get to shoot it 3 or 4 times a year and, like you say, its a lot of cash for that often. Now since the whole AI thing came up, a Riflecraft TMRII in .308 is tempting....

Red

[rapidboy]

You pop out the used primer (if re-loading). This is done with a press and die (think something that looks like a manual beer pump with a carefully machined tube inside that accepts that size of case)




I roll my own rifle and pistol ammo.
This is my temporary reloading bench.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/rapidboy1/guns/429_2956_1.jpg

The progressive press on the left is for pistol ammo, every time you operate the lever a complete loaded round drops out.
The small press on the right is for rifle ammo or small runs of pistol ammo.
It's slower and takes several separate operations to complete a round.

[British Red]

I really have to get a progressive - still using single stage for all my laoding and it is a bit of a chore!
That looks like a Lee Lawrence (guessing here but the primer sorter and powder measure look right). How do you get on with it?

Red

PS naughty,man with a kinetic hammer - oh, hang on, you only use it for checking COL on test seatings don't you - I forgot :D

[rapidboy]

Most of my kit is LEE and i get on well with it but i know others who have had problems with progressive LEE's.
To be honest i think it's down to operator error in most cases and if you take your time and set it up right and understand how it works it's pretty straight forward.
Im not sure that i'd use it for rifle rounds , i bought this one to feed my pistols and i will probably get a better single stage press as i get more into rifle shooting but that won't be for a while.
My bench isn't solid enough, this is just a short term bench until i get round to building a proper workshop.
A friend uses a Dillon but i didn't really like it and most other guys in my club use LEE or RCBS.
Most of my mates are loadimng for pistols so progressive's are popular but for rifle i'd stick with a good single staion or a turret.
I load 6.5 X55 Swedish on the LEE turret and it's fine but it's only for Service Rifle.

[leon-1]

American Barrett light .50 cal rifle (no real bushcraft value but I would like one)

Oh dear, one of my pet hates. It has a very nasty spring inside that pressed metal body that when you fire it sounds like an old bed spring clattering against the body. IIRC it is also semi-retarded blowback. As I say if you are looking at .50 there are better tools for the job.

The PGM industries Hecate for a start is far more accurate and would be my choice of .50/12.75mm.

As far as the L115 is concerned (AI AWSM 0.338), it is a corking tool for most jobs, it has a fair amount of recoil due its lighter weight and size when considering the amount of energy that the cartridge produces. They are very accurate and very well made. The cartridge is based on the 0.375 Holland & Holland IIRC, which in its own right is a very capable calibre.

However, I do tend to wonder why anyone would want one of either the 0.338 or 0.50cal's for use in the UK.

Lawrence has it right with a nice calibre like the 6.5mm Swedish, the cartridge produces a lot of energy propelling that little 6.5mm at a real pace that can take down reindeer / caribou quite happily at 400 meters. It also would be cheaper to feed and less tiring for anyone to use.

[Lurch]

Lurch,

You can play with my .357 if you like. I do keep toying with a little practical S/G - theres an active group at our club doing it

My local club has a club lever action, I've only ever had one go and it was faulty (rounds kept falling in the action). Must have another go....
I've the slot for the multi but haven't got around to it, trouble is there is only a half dozen or so shoots at the club - after that you're looking a fair bit of travel. Great fun though.
I can't decide between semi and pump. Sure semi is ever so slightly faster (and is what the Benelli Practical comes in - my number one choice probably) but the pump is so much more fun!

[Spacemonkey]

My dad has two lever action 'Winchester' reps one in .357 and one in .44. Both have negligble recoil and are really accurate at 50ms (furthest I've shot it). Our club has lots of clay pigeon fragments on the backstop and I can easily pick off 1-2" diameter fragments at 50m with it. Fairly cheap to buy and run, deffo cheaper than the .50 cal!
I love the Benelli recoil semi too. They also do a cheaper version in tactical (:rolleyes: ) black under a different brand name for about £550 when I saw one earlier in the year. Not too bad if you can live with the black placcy stock. Looks pretty mean though!
My only toy is kept at my dad's gaff in Spain. It's his old Martini Henry .45/577 that he has 'passed on' to me. Now that thing has some kick to it... here's a pic of it's cartridge compared to a 22LR and a .577 Snider round (which he also has a beast to fire it in)
http://home.kpnplanet.nl/~j.van.gelderen5@kpnplanet.nl/england/ammouk.JPG

[Buckshot]

I'm currently looking at a underlever as a knock about g un to throw in the Landy when I'm out doing the 'keepering jobs I need to do.
I was thinking about a 44 mag but it's not quite deer legal (it's just under according to a few of the local dealers). The next (fairly) easily avaliable calibre up is likely to be 30-30 so that's probably the way I'll go. After all it's probably taken more white tail deer in the US than any other calibre. I also know of one going for a song atm.
It's not that I want to this as a dedicated deer ri fle but as it's likely to be the only one I have with me most of the time I want the option to take anything that comes along.
My dedicated deer set up is a bit too nice, heavy and long to use as a knock about !

Cheers

Mark

[leon-1]

I'm currently looking at a underlever as a knock about g un to throw in the Landy when I'm out doing the 'keepering jobs I need to do.
I was thinking about a 44 mag but it's not quite deer legal (it's just under according to a few of the local dealers). The next (fairly) easily avaliable calibre up is likely to be 30-30 so that's probably the way I'll go. After all it's probably taken more white tail deer in the US than any other calibre. I also know of one going for a song atm.
It's not that I want to this as a dedicated deer ri fle but as it's likely to be the only one I have with me most of the time I want the option to take anything that comes along.
My dedicated deer set up is a bit too nice, heavy and long to use as a knock about !

Cheers

Mark

Mark have you looked into scout type rifles (shorter heavy barrel, leaf iron sights at the rear and bead at the front and if fitted with a scope normally a long focal length scope as used in pistol shooting), there have been a number of articles on them for you to research.

[British Red]

:D Scout rifles...gotta love 'em...see picture above (although I don't get on with long eye relief scopes so I' mounted a low power Leupold with medium relief). The Steyrs are a different price range than that lever gun though..of course they are easy enough to create something similar (although they have to be fairly light to conform to Col. Parkers original design - he died last week sadly btw).

As a thought Mark, do you reload? Hust thinking about that 30-30 (nice round imho) and I guess you will need a flattish tipped head to avoid any chance of slamfire in the tube mag. I guess you would also want expanding. Semi wad expanding 30-30 wouldn't be likely to be common in the gunshops round here - easy enough to make up though.

Now thinking round Leon-1s idea of something Scout based, how about a Lee-Enfield number 5 (Jungle Carbine)? Tough as old boots for a "trunk gun", .303 ball is still widely available (although you'd have to load expanding), cheap as chips and easy to put glass onto with an Armalon "no gunsmithing" mount (drops into the charger guide and mounts to the existing rear sight hole).

I must admit though, I'd be tempted by the lever gun - especially if its a Marlin (side ejector is much betetr I find with opticals than the top ejecting Winchesters or Rossis). Not an issue if you are staying with irons of course

Fun project though...love to see what you end up with

Red

[Buckshot]

Mark have you looked into scout type rifles (shorter heavy barrel, leaf iron sights at the rear and bead at the front and if fitted with a scope normally a long focal length scope as used in pistol shooting), there have been a number of articles on them for you to research.
I have Leon, but a bit too long and expensive for the task I want really.
Nice thought though :)

Mark

[Buckshot]

:D Scout rifles...gotta love 'em...see picture above (although I don't get on with long eye relief scopes so I' mounted a low power Leupold with medium relief). The Steyrs are a different price range than that lever gun though..of course they are easy enough to create something similar (although they have to be fairly light to conform to Col. Parkers original design - he died last week sadly btw).

As a thought Mark, do you reload? Hust thinking about that 30-30 (nice round imho) and I guess you will need a flattish tipped head to avoid any chance of slamfire in the tube mag. I guess you would also want expanding. Semi wad expanding 30-30 wouldn't be likely to be common in the gunshops round here - easy enough to make up though.

Now thinking round Leon-1s idea of something Scout based, how about a Lee-Enfield number 5 (Jungle Carbine)? Tough as old boots for a "trunk gun", .303 ball is still widely available (although you'd have to load expanding), cheap as chips and easy to put glass onto with an Armalon "no gunsmithing" mount (drops into the charger guide and mounts to the existing rear sight hole).

I must admit though, I'd be tempted by the lever gun - especially if its a Marlin (side ejector is much betetr I find with opticals than the top ejecting Winchesters or Rossis). Not an issue if you are staying with irons of course

Fun project though...love to see what you end up with

Red
Red,

I don't reload, I used to for my 1911 and peacemaker but it's not worth it now.
Not sure about the jungle carbine - I've heard they've got a nasty bite!
The 30-30 is a Marlin but I'd be running it on iron sights so the side ejection doesn't matter but I like the slightly bigger lever and stronger action.

TBH I also fancy a 45-70 and then I could put 410 through it as well ;) The external dimentions are the same I'm told. The problem is getting hold of one of those at a reasonable price.
One of my local shops has 2 underlevers both in 45 colt in stock atm - both going for twice as much as the 30-30 :(

[British Red]

You are right about the Jungle Carbine being a bit of a beast Mark, but for what you have in mind they would work well (in my head). The short barrel and lighter gun does mean ....erm...well lets put it this way - you know it wasn't a light strike :lmao: . I put 450 rounds through one in a day about two years ago and lived to tell so they aren't all that bad. Okay I did have a "doh" moment when I picked it up with my left hand on the (unprotected) barrel to show clear after a 120 round sequence (I'm sure the skin will heal soon :D )

Now I think about it , the later (Ishapore) ones were chambered in 7.62, so a .308 expanding round would be a dead on fit and widely available. You can pick them up for around £300 with a fantastic set of sights too (well compared with those semi buckhorns on the Marlin ;) ). They are also as tough as any rifle I have ever shot - my No. 4 is 65 years old and never misses a beat. I still think that 30-30 is viable though - I'm sure you must know a friendly gunshop who get get you the right round - Kranks or York Guns would have some for sure - lets face it its probably the commonest US hunting round - its just getting fodder in the UK that would be a challenge (an excuse to get your old press out again anyway)

Red

[demographic]

<Scott dons his Nomex undercrackers>

I know this might sound a daft question but what use is something like a .50 cal, other that to say to yer mates, "Look what I have" :confused:

I am personally fascinated by rifles and balistics but other than for long range sniping aren't they about as much use as a chocolate fireguard?
Not much cop for hunting deer anyway as 11,000 or more foot pounds might be regarded as a tad excessive.

Don't really see the point in handguns either though but there you go.

[leon-1]

<Scott dons his Nomex undercrackers>

I know this might sound a daft question but what use is something like a .50 cal, other that to say to yer mates, "Look what I have" :confused:

I am personally fascinated by rifles and balistics but other than for long range sniping aren't they about as much use as a chocolate fireguard?

Hmmmmm......

Seems a little familiar:)


However, I do tend to wonder why anyone would want one of either the 0.338 or 0.50cal's for use in the UK.

Generally the answer would be "because I want one", not because someone has used one.

0.375 Holland & Holland was a very succesfull large game round, the 0.338 was based on that and was actually being used by hunters before the military adopted it.

0.50 cal as is used for the likes of the Barrett is actually 0.50 BMG (Browning Machine Gun), so no surprise what it was developed for. Having said that in days of old in the States they did used to use long guns and these were quite often in and around 0.50 calibre, they tended to be used for taking down the likes of Buffalo with a single shot at long range, so 0.50 is not without some background in the hunting world even if the cartridge or load was not quite the same as that of the current 0.50 BMG.

Also now there are people that target shoot at extreme ranges and 0.50 cal is one of the calibres suited to it.

[British Red]

Kinda what Leon-1 said.

To be fair I suspect there are less than a hundred people in the UK who have a slot for .50 BMG (or 12.7 x 108 Russian equivalent). And less than a double handful or ranges on which to use them. SO they have no more point as such than a long bow, or a javelin or a discus. All previously weapons that have evolved into a disciplined sport of concentration and skill. Actually a large .50 cal (often single shot) target rifle is far less likely to be used in any problematic activity than a normal .308 hunting rifle. Why? because its HUGE :D . Lets see someone conceal a rifle thats 5 foot long and weighs 30 odd lbs :lmao: Seriously. LIGHT class .50 cal shooting is limited to 32lbs 8oz weight. Heavy class is 50lbs. Yous simply cannot shoot these things offhand. Genuinely you shoot at raised targets. They have to be raised - the curvature of the earth gets in the way otherwise :eek: .

As for your "not much cop for deer" observation - too true! They are an extreme range target rifle - no more or less in the UK. The skill involved at hitting a target a mile away is mind boggling. It absolutely is nothing to do with being "macho" or saying to your mates "look what I have". Good shots, and I mean really good shots are unbelievably calm, focussed people. Medical studies have shown that their pulse drops by 25 beats a minute when shooting. Its very calm, deliberate and almost "zen" like. Shooting on the top or bottom of the wind, reading the eddies and haze etc. become a fascinating, if esoteric art. If you like ballistics, do try a 700 yard plus shoot - its an awesome experience

Red

[demographic]

Hmmmmm......

Seems a little familiar:)



Generally the answer would be "because I want one", not because someone has used one.

0.375 Holland & Holland was a very succesfull large game round, the 0.338 was based on that and was actually being used by hunters before the military adopted it.

0.50 cal as is used for the likes of the Barrett is actually 0.50 BMG (Browning Machine Gun), so no surprise what it was developed for. Having said that in days of old in the States they did used to use long guns and these were quite often in and around 0.50 calibre, they tended to be used for taking down the likes of Buffalo with a single shot at long range, so 0.50 is not without some background in the hunting world even if the cartridge or load was not quite the same as that of the current 0.50 BMG.

Also now there are people that target shoot at extreme ranges and 0.50 cal is one of the calibres suited to it.

I read about the 50 90 blackpowder rounds they used for Buffalo but still fail to see the point for .50 BMG in the UK?

.338? never heard of that one as I thought that the US military used to use .308 winchester and now use .223 Remington.

I can remember reading Guns & Ammo years ago (one of my uncles used to get em) about a long range rifle based on the 30-06 Sprinfield (improved) round firing 4" groups at a mile :eek: but interesting though it is where in the UK is a .50 browning any use?
Fallow deer? ;)

The IRA notwithstanding.

[pothunter]

Rapidboy

Now I'm upset I had forgotten that you still had your handguns.

Buckshot

Have you considered either the Marlin .444 or the .45/70 lever action guns, there is a short barrel guide version in stainless, ugly as sin but might suit if its got to work hard.

Pothunter.

[ArkAngel]

There was a similar thread about 50 cals on an airgun forum a few months back...

If you have realplayer take a gander at this:

http://www.biggerhammer.net/barrett/50calt1.rm

The post directly after the link said....

"Hmmmm, i wonder how i can convince my firearms liason officer i need one for long range fox and deer!" :lmao:

[Lurch]

Demo mate, you keep coming back with the 'what use is...?' question.
Target shooting is a sport, that is it's use. Plain and simple. The .50bmg is not a suitable round for hunting anything in the UK.
What use is a formula 1 car? What use is a javelin? What use (as Red says) a long bow?

[leon-1]

.338? never heard of that one as I thought that the US military used to use .308 winchester and now use .223 Remington.

.338 is the British armed forces first long range large calibre rifle made by accuracy international, it is commonly know as the Arctic Warfare Super Magnum (AWSM) or has the military designation of L115. It was trialled against the Barrett and the PGM Industries Hecate, amongst others. The AI .50 only arrived for the last part of the trials in Alaska. The trials were pretty long and involved quite a few enviroments rangeing from the UK, through Brunie, Kuwait and Alaska. It has now seen active service and proved itself superior over range than the AW and the L96.

The military do not refer to .308 or .223, they are both referred to as 7.62mm or 5.56mm. The first has a cartridge case of 51mm in lenght (just so that it is not mixed up with the Kurz version with the 39mm case as used in the AK series) and the second has a 45mm Cartrdige case. They are however the same round in basis as thier civilian counterparts.

7.62mm is still in service with the American forces on the M60 as well as the Modified Remington M40A* variants, the M24 sniper variant and the variant of the M21 called the M25 (light sniper rifle).

The major difference for anyone using a large calibre (.338 or .50) is the stability of flight over range due to the weight of the round. To give it a flatter trajectory they have fitted the projectile to a monster casing with a lot of propellant, obviously power and weight is a trade off to get the best result, this is why people use them for extreme range shooting.

If you shoot a lot you get the bug to push your limits (you want to shoot further and more accurately), when you reach a certain range with .308 / 7.62mm they no longer cut the mustard and so you have to change to a tool that can, this is where the long range large calibre rifles start to come into play and @1000 meters a .338 holds the same kinetic energy as a .50. That is a lot of punch for a little rifle.

To demonstrate the difference in weight, the weight of a L115 is approx 15lbs (14.99 actual) without scope, the weight of the PGM Industries Hecate II is 30.36lbs and the weight of the Barrett M82 is 32.5lbs.

If you now think that the heaviest of the remington 700bdl family weighs in at under eight pounds you start to get an idea.

These rifles are large and heavy to give them stability, hence they also have bipods and butt spikes (in some cases), they are designed specifically for long range shooting and pushing your limits.

Believe me when I say these are not the largest out there, there are things like the Mechem NTW-20 and that is a real beast:eek:

[British Red]

there are things like the Mechem NTW-20 and that is a real beast:eek:

Too much for Muntjac then? :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: Only a mere 57 lbs to carry (plus the ammo of course)

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/ntw20_1.jpg


Wonder why theres so much eye relief on that scope :)

Red

[leon-1]

Too much for Muntjac then? :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: Only a mere 57 lbs to carry (plus the ammo of course)

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/ntw20_1.jpg


Wonder why theres so much eye relief on that scope :)

Red

I was thinking more along the lines of armour plated prarie dogs or bunnies from Monty Python films:D.

Very accurate, it is actually fitted with a cylinder for either cold/temperate enviroments which has a blue band or a red one for hot enviroments, they are used to retard some of the recoil.

Very impressive to fire, but three rounds and then have to change mag, what happens if you have only winged the Monty Python bunny and it charges you:eek:.

[leon-1]

Right to get things a little off the BIG GUNS because I want one, how about this, can people tell me what benefits could be found from having used one of these larger rifles, when using something smaller???

[British Red]

Leon,

Interesting question. I think there are many benefits. Interestingly, some are similar to the discussion I had with Leon-B recently on "spring gun" vs PCP air gun.

Using a spring gun needs more skill to control and manage the recoil and muzzle flip. Correct stock and comb alignment are needed. Over gripping the forend will magnify error as will incorrect breath control. Same goes for a rifle in my book. Learning to shoot on a large centrefire will ensure correct body position, breath control etc. Getting the right eye relief on the scope can be fairly important too. Shooting over longer ranges bring up skills like reading the wind, understanduing mirage and haze effects. All these disciplines applied to a softer recoiling, more manageable calibre or over shorter ranges can only serve to increase accuracy. Three years ago at Altcar a club I shooting with shared a 300 yard firing point with a local regiment. An informal competition broke out between our "old guard" shooting SMLEs, Mark 4s etc. and the more moder 5.56 shooters. The old guard were mostly in their 70s shooting rifles as old as themselves. No prizes for spotting the winners (despite the range being well within the capabilities of the more modern firearm). :D

Red

[Doc]

Kinda what Leon-1 said.

Good shots, and I mean really good shots are unbelievably calm, focussed people. Medical studies have shown that their pulse drops by 25 beats a minute when shooting.

Red

Not only that, but it has been shown that top level marksmen fire in diastole, that is, between heartbearts and they do this subconciously.

[British Red]

Wow, now theres a new one on me! It really is a weird thing though - ever tried to "force yourself" to relax? Not as easy as it sounds! Now the combination of slowing the heartbeat and shooting between those beats - completely logical to avoid movement - how does someone learn to do that unconsciously though?

Red

[Silverback]

:D When I have the cross hairs between ole Charlies eyes my heart is nearly beating out of my ****ing chest!

[British Red]

I think the term is "buck fever" there Silverback mate :D

It is a weird thing - I've had it myself a few times. Recreating the calm you get when "holding the zero" in a target situation is difficult when targetting live quarry. The pressure of a fluffed shot causing suffering is large, combined with that strange feeling of knowing that you are about to take a life. Very humbling in its way. I think anyone who hasn't done it can't understand the feeling as it's so hard to describe.

Very different with a rifle than a shotgun too. A shotgun I think is "easier" as the quarry is usually moving and the adrenaline involved in the quick, smooth reaction is beneficial. Its an "in the moment" thing.

Deliberately targeting a still creature is so different, waiting for it to settle, slowing your breathing, checking that its not tensing to spring or run, couple of breaths and then let the sight settle...then...that moment when you have to choose to end a creatures life forever is...awe inspiring, humbling, sad in a way, honourable if you do your part but above all else...private. Its between you and the animal and the world is just the backdrop its painted on. The circle of life, caught forever in a moment.

Red

[Silverback]

I should have been a little more precise there what I refer to is the first glimpse of the old 'tail lights' in the lamp then the slow but sure trot towards you as you 'scritch' with one hand and reach for the rifle with the other. The point at which the quarry reaches takeable range is where the heart is at its peak and every beat is evident to the shooter. As the head drops to the scope and the quarry comes into view all is calm and all thoughts turn towards the task in hand (so beautifully described in your text :) ). In 32 years I have shot more foxes than I dare think about but I can honestly say that every single one of them has produced that same feeling of excitement - there are all manner of predatory beasts out there but I would put ole charlie alongside any of em. I love a bit of stalking but my real passion is in pursuit of Reynard :D

[ArkAngel]

Oh Dear :(

So does this make me an unfeeling stonecold killer???

When i did shoot (and as most will know all my firearms went recently) i fell into that "zen" zone with great ease, never getting overexcited, taking my time on a stalk and aiming.
I alway treated prey as a paper target with the emphasis on a "perfect" shot everytime. Never got too excited about a good kill, just a great sense of satisfaction that everything had gone perfectly and the bullet had gone exactly where i wanted it.

Of course i did field target shooting for many years so the dicipline of that may have helped when i moved onto live quarry.

Or could it be i'm in the wrong job and should be a contract assassin for a living :confused:just call me "The Jackal"

[spamel]

Go to this link and check the 5th rifle (read cannon!!) down. (http://www.sportingservices.co.uk/accuracy.asp)

British forces used to carry the Barrett for taking out mines and Unexploded Ordanance, it has now been replaced with the AW50. I got my hands on one in Iraq this year and it takes a bit of lifting!! This is a shoot from the prone position only gun!

I thought it was an amzing piece of engineering, I was a bit upset that I didn't get a shoot on it, our armourer had it in for inspection before it went off to do its job and he was supposed to get a go on it but he didn't in the end.

You could drop a Subways sarnie down the barrel!!! :D

[British Red]

Look Spamel, please don't trivialise such an important topic with a cap gun

If you are going to shoot, SHOOT :lmao:

This is absolutlely not for the faint hearted, unquestionably not UK legal and just plain WRONG

http://www.buckstix.com/howitzer.htm


I guess under the heading of "not much cop for deer", this comes under the heading of..."crude...but undeniably effective" :rolleyes:

Red

[ArkAngel]

Now i did have an article somewhere.................

........"how to successfully hunt rabbits with a Javilin missile"...........


....where did i put it??? :D

[swyn]

I have a BSA super 10 air rifle by Adrian Hartley of Stalker rifles. He also makes a 45 caliber air rifle for deer. I still have the slug that he showed me. I don't think these fit into a rotating mag though!

[pierre girard]

I'm currently looking at a underlever as a knock about g un to throw in the Landy when I'm out doing the 'keepering jobs I need to do.
I was thinking about a 44 mag but it's not quite deer legal (it's just under according to a few of the local dealers). The next (fairly) easily avaliable calibre up is likely to be 30-30 so that's probably the way I'll go. After all it's probably taken more white tail deer in the US than any other calibre. I also know of one going for a song atm.
It's not that I want to this as a dedicated deer ri fle but as it's likely to be the only one I have with me most of the time I want the option to take anything that comes along.
My dedicated deer set up is a bit too nice, heavy and long to use as a knock about !

Cheers

Mark

I have a number of deer r_f_es, but my grandfather's deer r_f_e, a 1904 Model 94 Winchester, is still the one I've taken the most deer with. I know this sounds backward, but when I'm really serious about getting a deer - it is the one I take.

[Silverback]

Oh Dear :(

So does this make me an unfeeling stonecold killer???

When i did shoot (and as most will know all my firearms went recently) i fell into that "zen" zone with great ease, never getting overexcited, taking my time on a stalk and aiming.
I alway treated prey as a paper target with the emphasis on a "perfect" shot everytime. Never got too excited about a good kill, just a great sense of satisfaction that everything had gone perfectly and the bullet had gone exactly where i wanted it.

Of course i did field target shooting for many years so the dicipline of that may have helped when i moved onto live quarry.

Or could it be i'm in the wrong job and should be a contract assassin for a living :confused:just call me "The Jackal"I dont get the same feeling when stalking because deer don't 'light the fire' for me like a Charlie can. Shooting a fox at 250+ at night that you have called in by lamplight is a world apart from a well executed text book stalk. I most certainly wouldn't say that every shot I had ever pulled off had been perfect (and if you find me a man that makes that claim I will find you a liar) but I am confident enough to say I am damn good at what I do. I also never lose sight of the fact that I am taking the life of a living breathing animal and the day I see my quarry as a paper target will be the day I pack it in. The hardest thing for me to put across to an anti is the fact that I love to hunt and do not love to kill there is a very big difference and I think if when asked this question you reply to the latter it is not the sport for you!

[ArkAngel]

I dont get the same feeling when stalking because deer don't 'light the fire' for me like a Charlie can. Shooting a fox at 250+ at night that you have called in by lamplight is a world apart from a well executed text book stalk. I most certainly wouldn't say that every shot I had ever pulled off had been perfect (and if you find me a man that makes that claim I will find you a liar) but I am confident enough to say I am damn good at what I do. I also never lose sight of the fact that I am taking the life of a living breathing animal and the day I see my quarry as a paper target will be the day I pack it in. The hardest thing for me to put across to an anti is the fact that I love to hunt and do not love to kill there is a very big difference and I think if when asked this question you reply to the latter it is not the sport for you!


1 reason i gave up shooting :sulkoff:

[Silverback]

Then all power to you ArkAngel, that must have been an incredibly hard decision to have made and speaks volumes for your character.

[ArkAngel]

:o :o :o
Oh stop it!

It was a toughie i have to admit.

The main reason was for safety. There were just too many people around to make shooting safe. A big shame as i have been shooting various calibres of rifles since i was old enough to hold the cutdown spring air rifle my grandad gave me (who himself was a trained sniper). :notworthy

I will miss shooting, but i found even in the rural location i live in people would give me hassle going about my lawful business. I will not apologise for wanting an easy life. The "anti's/uninformed" won in this case. I just felt that in this day and age, with the current climate that owning firearms is just far too much of a problem. :rant:

God knows having knives automatically classifies you as a nutter :D

[leon-b]

i will bring this thread back to life, i am getting a shotgun for the next shooting season, the gun will be kept at my unckes who has shot for most of his life
any info on gun choice, shooting etc
the gun will be used for pheseants pidgeon and maybe a fox if i see one
leon

[rapidboy]

depends how much you want to spend for a start.

[faff]

get a beretta 391 semi auto. its a nice light gun to use. can get them cheap and hol 3 shots.if you eva go clay shooting you can be frowned upon :lmao:

[rapidboy]

my main user 12G is a Beretta 390, great gun :cool:

[Silverback]

As rapidboy has already stated it is very much a question of budget but in terms of size I would go for a 20 bore either over and under or a traditional side by side. A 3 shot auto (formerly five until the passing of that stupid damned law :cussing: ) is fine for skeet or squirrel poking but not normally welcomed on pheasant shoots (not my opinion I hasten to add, just a fact). There is then the question of chokes which again is dependant on what you intend to do with it. I would suggest dropping into a reputable gun shop and having a chat with someone who knows their stuff. It is a highly imotive topic that will undoubtedly quickly dissolve into a battle of personal preferences among the shotgun owning subscribers to the forum :D

[rapidboy]

It is a highly imotive topic that will undoubtedly quickly dissolve into a battle of personal preferences among the shotgun owning subscribers to the forum :D

Yep :lmao:

[faff]

my main user 12G is a Beretta 390, great gun :cool:

very nice gun

[bushwacker bob]

Due to your age(and stature) Leon,I would start with a 20ga.
I started with a 12ga and finished my shooting career with a 20ga.
It is kinder on your shoulder if you shoot a lot and you can carry 30% more ammo for the same weight and there is little difference in shot pattern.

[bluemountaingunworks]

Leon,
I am a licensed firearms dealer in the U.S. and operate a small gunshop/gunsmithing service here in my home town. I have been an avid firearms collector, shooter, hunter, and historian for 19 years. I would like to throw my two cents, or pence, in if I may based on my own experiences and those of my customers.

The first thing I would consider is what gauge you are interested in. While the 20 gauge is perfectly suited to most upland gamebirds and small furry critters, the 12 gauge will give you a wider range of shot choices and killing power for a larger assortment of game. For example, 12 gauge shotguns are used here in the U.S. for everything from quail to Grizzly-it's only a matter of shot size and powder load. I feel that a 12 is a more versatile caliber.

The second thing I would consider is which type of action you prefer. The options are a single-shot break action, double barrel- either OU or SxS, pump-action, and autoloader. Each has is own set of advantages and disadvantages. My personal feelings and the feelings of most of the folks I know is that a pump-action with a 3 " chamber and 24" or 26" barrel is the most ideal. A pump allows you more capacity than a single or double and eliminates the problems/mechanical defects autos are prone to. I seldom have pumps coming into the shop here for repairs, but autoloaders are in all the time for deep cleanings and gas seal replacements.

The next thing to consider is your barrel length and choke combination. A 24" barrel with a modified choke will fit the bill for most game. If you would like to get a little more specific, think about assembling an assortment of various chokes and barrels. A 20" rifled sight barrel loaded with 00 buckshot or rifled slug is a serious deer gun, as-well-as, home invader deterrent. A 28" barrel with a super-full steel choke and # BBB steel shot is a great goose gun. Of course there is a plethora of options in between.

Another thing to think about is the finish. Do you want a flawless, glossy stocked, charcoal blued showpiece or a parkerized, synthetic stocked truck gun. Some manufacturers offer a complete coating of waterproof, camo "plastic" dip. This ensures your gun will be relatively impervious to rain, snow, sleet, mud, etc... although it is still a good idea to dry it thoroughly after each outing. My opinion is that bead-blasted, matte blue metal in a synthetic stock set is the best utilitarian set-up.

Then you have to consider manufacturer. I can personally vouch for both the Remington 870 and the Mossberg 500. Both guns are made very well, have been around for decades, offer endless aftermarket add-ons and upgrades, and seldom need repair. Should they ever need repair, there are dozens of vendors who make/stock replacement parts. I can honestly say that the only thing I have ever repaired on either of these models in 19 years is a single firing pin in an 870. Offerings by Browning, Winchester, and Benneli are also good options, although a little more expensive.

Now for a summary of all of the above mentioned. I feel that for utilitarian use and not for collectibility and/or beauty you can not go wrong with an 12 gauge, 3" chambered pump-action, matte/synthetic, American-made shotgun. I feel that it can ,and has, killed just about everything on the North American continent from dove to moose. The parts are cheap, the ammo is available most anywhere, the reliability is unsurpassed, and they make a sweet sound when you chamber a round. Now for my personal favorite-for both nostalgia, collectibility, reliability, and just plain good looks is the Winchester Model 12 Heavy Duck in 12 gauge! Please realize that these are just personal feelings and the most important thing is what works for you and suits your particular need. I hope this helps and good luck with your decision. God Bless! Jerry

[leon-b]

thanks very much guys, im looking at spending in the lower region and buying second hand, it will be used for pheseants,pidgeon and the odd fox
me and my uncle will go to the gun shop but i was hoping i could also get some info on here
hope this helps
leon

[ArkAngel]

When i went with my uncle to get his shotgun we got him a "gentlemans gun" (a side by side) 50 rounds of ammo and a gun slip for £195.

The gun finish wasn't the best but the working parts and barrels were 100%. In fact it looked like it had just been dug up out of a field but the barrels are straight and it goes bang when you pull the trigger.....that's all you need IMO Shiney stuff comes later :D

[Labrador]

Hi Leon,
most important thing is to make sure the gun fits!
You should be able to get a cheap Spanish double for a reasonable price (I paid about £120 or so for my first gun), or if you'd prefer a 12 bore, a Baikal for even less.
Buy it from a reputable gunsmith, of which there are loads in Suffolk, & get them to check the fit. You may need the stock either shortened (by cutting a bit off) or lengthened (by adding a thicker recoil pad). A decent gunsmith won't want to "take you for a ride" as he will always be looking towards repeat custom, recommendations etc.
After you've got it, invest in a lesson or two from a reputable shooting school before the next season opens, take some time during the summer to shoot some pigeons & perhaps check out your local wildfowling clubs, they often have junior sections & will teach you loads about shooting (Alde & Ore W/F & Anglia W/F on the Deben are close to you).

[leon-b]

i am looking to pay about £150 to £200, what would you say side by side or under over, i like the look of side by sides
also what calibre 12 or 20 ? what kicks less ?
leon

[rik_uk3]

I've no problem with hunting an animal, so long as you use what you kill, eat the flesh, use the fur/skins etc. Shooting more that you can use is pointless to me

Just my two pennies worth ;)

[leon-b]

yes on our shoot whoever shoots the bird takes it home unless he gives it to someone else on the shoot. i sometimes get a brace from my uncle
leon

[Doc]

The experts will say that most people shoot better with an over and under compared to a side by side. I agreed with the standard wisdom, but one day borrowed a Side-by-side Holland&Holland (very expensive game gun) and hit everything I aimed at. Normally I am a mediocre shotgun shot at best.

So I would get what fits you.

Leon- I have a copy of 'The Shotgun Book' which has a lot of info on gun fit, pros and cons of different designs and calibres, cartridges, different marques and safety.
If you want it, it is yours, post free.

[British Red]

I need to step in briefly here to add a word of caution on bluemountaingunworks post. The first important point is that everything he has posted is correct. In the USA.

In the UK, two important laws apply to this.

The Wildlife and Countryside act 1981 limits the use of high capacity shotguns in hunting


http://www.met.police.uk/firearms-enquiries/deer1.htm


Shooters should acquaint themselves with The Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (WCA) and comply accordingly. Particular note should be made of the restriction imposed by Section 5, which makes it an offence to use an automatic or semi-automatic weapon which has a magazine capacity of more than two rounds, to kill any wild bird. The definition also encompasses Section 1 (Firearms Act 1968 as amended) pump-action and semiautomatic shotguns, and any rifles whether bolt-action, pump-action or semiautomatic, with such magazines, including air weapons. However, a person will not be guilty of this offence if they have obtained a specific licence for themselves from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) - 0117 372 8903 (general enquiries). Any person committing this offence may also commit an offence of failing to comply with the conditions of his/her firearm certificate if he/she is only authorised for vermin control.

Notwithstanding this, the Secretary of State for the Environment issues an official decree every two years which amounts to an exemption from the usual prohibitions placed on the killing of specific species of wild birds with Section 1 shotguns. The following thirteen species are at the moment included in this exemption:

Canada Goose
Crow
Collared Dove
Great Black-backed Gull
Lesser Black-backed Gull
Herring Gull
Jackdaw
Jay
Magpie
Feral Pigeon
Rook
Wood Pigeon

The Firearms Amendment Act 1988 saw the removal of pump-action and semi-automatic shotguns - both of which have a magazine capable of holding more than two cartridges - from shotgun certificates.

These weapons are now classed as section 1 firearms and can only be held on a firearms certificate.

Many shotgun certificate holders had to either dispose of these weapons or have them restricted.

What is restriction?
Restriction adapts the shotgun magazine, allowing it to hold no more than two conventional cartridges. A third cartridge can still be legally held in the breech.

Restriction must be carried out in a manner approved by the Secretary of State and carried out by a fully qualified gunsmith. The shotgun must be proof marked and certified by a proof house.

What if I want to acquire a restricted shotgun?
If you plan to acquire a pump-action or semi automatic shotgun on a shotgun certificate, you must ensure that the magazine cannot hold more than two cartridges. Adapted weapons must be proof marked and carry a certificate from a proof house. The magazine must also be non-removable.

Failure to ensure these points may expose you to being in unlawful possession of section 1 firearms.


http://www.devon-cornwall.police.uk/v3/about/departm/firearms/faqs.htm#12

In a nutshell - holding a semi auto or pump action shotgun with a magazine capacity of more than 2 shots (plus one chambered round) - known as 2+1 configuration will mean that you have to hold it on a Full section 1 firearms certificate as opposed to a sectiion 2 (shotgun) certificate. I addition you will only be allowed to shoot a limited number of "vermin" species of bird - you will be prohibited in law from shooting "game" birds.

Sorry if that was a "heavy" post - important to know where you stand though.

I would suggest a 20 bore as you are a "light framed" 14 year old and graduate to a 12 bore as you fill out (keep the 20 bore though - its a lovely round). In 20 bore configuration, you will have a wider choice in over and under. Go for one with removable chokes if you get the choice and then you can use more choke on clays and about 1/4 and improved cylinder for game

Red

[bluemountaingunworks]

Thanks for the info Red! I did not even think about the restrictions on certain firearms in the UK. My apologies to all if the info I gave does not apply; think of it more as entertaining banter. Take care and God Bless! Jerry

[bluemountaingunworks]

I re-read the law you posted Red. Does the magazine restiction, 2+1, mean that simply installing a removable plug into the mag tube would or would not comply? Here in the States most hunting regulations require the same 2+1 rule. However, it is an easy and legal fix to simply drop-in a plug(dowel or similar object) into the mag tube that limits it's capacity to 2. The plug is easily removed so you can load to full capacity for home defense or hunting that does not have capacity restrictions, such as most fur-bearers(coyote, fox, bobcat, etc...) It should also be noted that unless the quarry is a migratory species, game laws/bag limits are regulated by the individual states. There are several states in the Eastern U.S. that have limited big game hunting to shotgun only due to population density. Thanks again! Jerry

[mrostov]

My favorite knock about rifle is a 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) Mauser fitted with a 3-9x32mm scope, a Timney trigger, and a new Israeli 7.62mm barrel.

I've had both .50 cal muzzleloaders and I had a semi-automatic .50BMG Pauza rifle before. Both were a blast (literally) to shoot, but unless the world went Mad Max or you need to go hunting sperm whales, the .50 muzzleloader was more practical.

I've had at various times a couple of dozen assault rifles. The AR-15 is a very accurate rifle, and it has a kit that drops into the receiver in place of the bolt carrier that converts the rifle to .22 Long Rifle. Anyone who says that a .223 (5.56mm) won't drop a deer has never shot a deer with a .223 caliber rifle. One of the best all around one-gun foraging combos on Earth is a 16" barrel 5.56mm CAR-15 carbine with a .22LR drop in kit.

The H&K 91 (civilian G3) is a pig to shoot but accurate and reliable. I think that tthe M-14 (M1A) is a nice rifle but overrated. Of the 7.62mm NATO caliber automatics, the FAL and the AR-10 are probably the best shooting.

I like shooting AK's, but to get an accurate 7.62x39mm AK, you have to be a tad picky. The 5.56mm AK's tend to be a lot more accurate. I've found the Polytechs to be a lot more accurate than the Norincos. If I had to buy one right now, I'd get a Robarms Vepr, which is made in Russia on an RPK machinegun receiver.

A lot of the American survivalist crowd is in love with the rugged looking, survivalist looking, spartan M-6 Scout survival rifle, but I've found it to be something of an overrated, heavy little pig. I'd much rather have just an ordinary 2 pound, single shot .22 Long Rifle caliber child's rifle like a Chimpmunk or Crickett for a survival gun than an M-6. The Chipmunk is great in that you can also get it in .22mag and .17HMR.

All in all, if you really want to be able to live off the land over a long term period in North America, you should have at least one, accurate, centerfire rifle. In other words, something you can reliably drop a deer with at typical North American game killing ranges. Most deer in the USA are killed within 200 yards (180m) or less.

You can buy a lever action Marlin 336, .30-30 caliber, at Walmart brand new and walk out with it that day for $200 (roughly 100 British pounds) - and it's a really good rifle. If you are a good shot and a good hunter, that will suffice plenty. I'd put a scope on it, and, unlike a Winchester, Marlins are built for that.

It's estimated that about 1/2 the deer in the USA that are shot each year are killed with a .30-30. The wonderful thing about .30-30 is that not only is it a capable cartridge, but you can get it at any store that sells ammo, and in many rural areas it's common to find boxes of .30-30 ammo for sale at local gas stations.

Another thing about a lever action .30-30 that is important over here is that not only is it a good hunting weapon and legal everywhere, but it can put out rapid followup shots, and if you get into a fight, espcially if the social situation turns bad (like in New Orleans after Katrina), you can defend yourself with it.

[British Red]

I re-read the law you posted Red. Does the magazine restiction, 2+1, mean that simply installing a removable plug into the mag tube would or would not comply? Here in the States most hunting regulations require the same 2+1 rule. However, it is an easy and legal fix to simply drop-in a plug(dowel or similar object) into the mag tube that limits it's capacity to 2. The plug is easily removed so you can load to full capacity for home defense or hunting that does not have capacity restrictions, such as most fur-bearers(coyote, fox, bobcat, etc...) It should also be noted that unless the quarry is a migratory species, game laws/bag limits are regulated by the individual states. There are several states in the Eastern U.S. that have limited big game hunting to shotgun only due to population density. Thanks again! Jerry
Jerry,

If the gun is capable of ever holding more than 2 rounds then it is a section 1 firearm over here - even if a temporarary plug has been fitted. As such its covered by both laws so no, you can't get around it. Interestingly it is never legal to take large quarry over here with a shotgun - rifles only. I won't go into that law as its not relevant to Leons thread but basically its a minimum of .243 except Scotland which allows .223 for Roe.

Nothing to be sorry about by the way mate - just that the laws here are slightly different on what qualifies as a hunting gun!

Red

[leon-b]

thanks for all the info guys, i have taken doc up on that offer so hopefully the book will give me some info, what are the laws regarding carrying your gun on foot and in car ??
i think i will go for the 20 bore, what is this good at shooting ? does it kick more than the 12 bore ?
leon

[rapidboy]

Try and have with a 20 and a 12 by going to your local clay club.
Ask around and show some interest and im sure you will get a few shots and loads of advice, it's also a good place to pick up a gun from someone leaving the sport or moving on.
A lot of people start with game guns and then want to move on to a trap gun.
Also check price of 20 ammo against 12 as it's quite a bit more expensive here.

[Mikey P]

I know this might sound a daft question but what use is something like a .50 cal, other that to say to yer mates, "Look what I have".

Barrett .50 cals were commissioned as anti-material weapons. Ie, designed to damage equipment. No use for hunting unless you want instant mincemeat.

Yet another rifle surrounded by urban myth and legend and too many videos on 'YouTube' and 'Ogrish.com'.

No idea why we are having this discussion on a UK bushcraft site. Makes me nervous.

[Lurch]

does it kick more than the 12 bore ?


You seem quite concerned about the kick. Have you shot a 12 and found it hard kicking?
There is an awful lot of crap talked about perceived recoil, there are two (well three!) things which will reduce kick.
Gun fit - probably the most significant, a poor fitting gun will leave you a bit sore.
Gun weight - simple physics
Powder load - simple physics again, bigger bang = bigger opposite reaction. Trouble is many people put more bang powder in the smaller bore guns, negating any "gain" from the smaller bore.

[rapidboy]

Think about a semi like the beretta, recoil is used to cycle the action and they are very sweet to shoot.

[leon-b]

no i have never shot a shotgun before
leon

[qweeg500]

Leon, I would'nt worry too much about kick. As long as you gun mount is OK you wont really notice it after a couple of lessons. You'll be more worried about keeping your eyes on the target and getting the correct lead.

Incidentally Leon, I'm a Felixstowe lad originally and I've popped into High Lodge Shooting School down your way in Suffolk a couple of times. I can recommed you visit if you end up taking a liking to sporting clays or skeet.

Matt

[qweeg500]

Also Leon, If your in the market for a new or 2nd hand shotgun you may find this website useful:

http://www.guntrader.co.uk/GunsForSale/

Just click your choices and it'll show you which Gunsmiths have what you what etc.

[leon-b]

thanks guys i will probley go down to a shooting club when i get my gun
leon

[santaman2000]

...All in all, if you really want to be able to live off the land over a long term period in North America, you should have at least one, accurate, centerfire rifle. In other words, something you can reliably drop a deer with at typical North American game killing ranges. Most deer in the USA are killed within 200 yards (180m) or less...

I'm pretty sure the generation that lived through the Great Depression of the 1930s (my parents and grandparents generations) would disagree. They fed themselves with 22 single shots. It's all the rifle and all the ammo they could afford for almost a decade. That sounds pretty long term to me.

[joejoe]

you can go right off some people what is it like to fire

[Mikey P]

I want a Gat Gun again. Great for shooting your mates in the **** at school.

Otherwise, will settle for a C8.

Or will continue to live in UK and just not bother with weapon fantasy.

Anyway, surely this should be 'Rifle Talk'? Guns are artillery.

[beerngrills70]

L1A1 S.L.R. Would be my choice if they were still legal very nice bit of kit.
Stay away from 58 pattern webbing it shrinks in the rain go for a.l.i.c.e..


Andy.. :)

[santaman2000]

I want a Gat Gun again. Great for shooting your mates in the **** at school.

Otherwise, will settle for a C8.

Or will continue to live in UK and just not bother with weapon fantasy.

Anyway, surely this should be 'Rifle Talk'? Guns are artillery.

This is my rifle
This is my gun
This is for fighting
This is for fun:)

[Mikey P]

Ha ha! Awesome! That was in 'Full Metal Jacket', wasn't it?

I used to get a good telling off from a colleague who was Royal Artillery if I said 'gun' when I should have said 'rifle'.

[johnnytheboy]

I love holidays in America, we tried 10mm glock, 9mm Heckler Kock , M16 and Smith and Wesson 500


http://youtu.be/x0U4QQBfadw

[British Red]

Anyway, surely this should be 'Rifle Talk'? Guns are artillery.

Nope, that a piece of nonsense invented by someone with more volume than knowledge.

A gun is


a weapon incorporating a metal tube from which bullets, shells, or other missiles are propelled by explosive force

A rifle has rifling to impart spin to the projectile.

All rifles are guns.

Not all guns are rifles.

Shotguns (as discussed in this thread) are guns (the clue is in the name), but they are not rifles.

Red

[Everything Mac]

.338 lapua please.

But anything with a kick would be nice.

Andy

[santaman2000]

Ha ha! Awesome! That was in 'Full Metal Jacket', wasn't it?

I used to get a good telling off from a colleague who was Royal Artillery if I said 'gun' when I should have said 'rifle'.

I think so. I've seen it a couple of times since then as well.

[santaman2000]

Nope, that a piece of nonsense invented by someone with more volume than knowledge.

A gun is



A rifle has rifling to impart spin to the projectile.

All rifles are guns.

Not all guns are rifles.

Shotguns (as discussed in this thread) are guns (the clue is in the name), but they are not rifles.

Red

Some shotguns over here now are sold with rifled barrels for deer hunting (with slugs or sabots) in areas where rifles are illegal (due to population density a rifle would have to much range and thus be to dangerous) Even more common at the moment what's even more common are rifled chokes for the shotguns with interchangeable choke systems. And some artillery is rifled as well so actually the definition may even be more blurred.

[British Red]

Agreed. In effect I think it is clear

If it goes bang and shoots a projectile down a tube, its a gun

If it spins that projectile, it is rifled (although not necessarily "a rifle" which implies a man portable shoulder fired weapon).

[Damascus]

It has to be a Plasma rifle in the 40watt range, as per Arnie and he knows his weapons (Terminator)

[Aaron]

So, having taken the last 114 posts to agree on the distinction between a 'rifle' and a 'gun', what shall we discuss about firearms now? :rolleyes:

[DOONBOY]

Can you explain