View Full Version : Genuine surplus
Bought 2 british army water bottles this weekend but how can you tell that the water bottle is genuine or a copy made in china?
Exterior markings. Quality of the seals (dark orange colored seals). If they are the latest type they have an NBC attachment on the lid (pull on the loop that holds the cap to the bottle to find out). Copies are unlikley to have this on them.
They are unlikly to be copies ... I've never seen copies of the brit army bottle ... there's so many of them about and they are cheap!
SquirrelBoy
29-03-2004, 12:04
Mine are genuine and have these markings on them:
On the front it has
KEEP AWAY FROM
HEAT OR FLAME
(arrow pointing up)
STOCK No973-6665
1990
OSPREY
On the cap it has
OSPREY
(arrow)CATNo973-6908
On the bottom it has
ENGLAND
CM/02
Hope that helps :-)
Thanks, same numbers and text on mine.
Then they are genuine :-D
Not that is probably worries you but the cap with the CATNo973-6908 number isn't the NBC cap ... just in case you are wondering. :-D
Great Pebble
29-03-2004, 14:41
There's a shedload of copies of the Brit. bottle floating about....
The copied ones may have "Made in China" on them
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
RAPPLEBY2000
11-04-2004, 01:22
:shock:
i remember trying to replace a 58 waterbottle to replace a lost one to the army.
all i could find was copies, the thing that warned me was the fact they look and feel different, more shiney, lighter in weight all of the printed warning stuff was on it!
but because i had been using a real one the fakes jump out at you, the fakes also don't have the NBC top.
a good point to note is that Genuine US bottles also have an NBC top some with a pop of plastic tab.
the US version has a rubber valve rather than the british plastic one.
All geniune british army surplus will have the nato crows foot (arrow pointing up) upon them.
However I have 4 x 58 bottles which where issued to me and only one has the NBC top - replacemeent tops were issued and soldiers were expected to change them I only bothered to do it on one bottle (pre-1999) - so that isnt a good indicator of genuine military issue. Further to this I also only have two with orange rubber seals, one has black and one has a white coloured one so again you cant be sure - they seemed to change from batch to batch. I also know that the makers of the 58 bottle make and sell to the civilian market and these they mark similar but instead of NSN they put a cat. no. and as far as I can tell these bottles are just as good as the issue ones but not second hand.
At the end of the day i would say only the crows foot and the NSN will be correct to issue gear.
US army gear is similar - the NBC seal is more common as is the 'burner plate' message (idiots guide) however the US government use so many suppliers this cannot always be a good guide line. Added to this most of the companies who make US issue gear also sell their wares on the civi market and of course dont bother with NBC or other mili spec add ons.
I am a great fan of the 1 qrt canteen preferring it to the 58 bottle and have several different models which I use all the time. The issue bottle has a white plastic inner 'O' ring seal in the lid while the 'improved' army 2000 model has a white foam type disk - both are made by the same company and both are issued to the troops, swat teams etc.
Question is at the end of the day does it matter if its surplus? Price wise maybe, although surplus being second hand should be cheaper I know a few companies who actually bump up the price for surplus!
Surely quality of product is more important as at the end of the day we wont what is best for us. With this in mind I suggest forgetting about NSN's ect and instead recommending you should look for a tough plastic bottle that you can not squeeze out of shape further to this it should be of a dark (non dee through) plastic so as not to allow our water treatement to be halted by UV and finally (a personal preference) a bottle of litre capacity so by carrying two we know we are maintaining correct hydration, we can pack them for balance of weight and in a worse case scenerio if we lose or damage one we still have a serviable container we can use in the other.
One question I have however - what does the Swedish army get issued Viking?
I guess as long as it holds water OK then it does its job!
However, I wonder if there are copies about with the NATO crowsfoot on it ... probably not worth copying considering the price.
I've used all sorts to carry water ... Sigg, Platypus, 58 Patt, 1 qrt but now favor the 58 patt ... it's robust and fits in nice with my hexy stove and mug. Never broken one orhad a problem with it. I've got about six here and 2 have the NBC top, five have the orange seal and one a black one. Seems like there are variations ... but they all carry water OK!
One question I have however - what does the Swedish army get issued Viking?
There is the old one made of aluminium (not being used nymore)
http://surplus.se/webshop/img/DSC00160.jpg
Then there is a newer model made of plastic (both bottles contains 0.7 litre)
http://surplus.se/webshop/img/DSC00159.jpg
There is 1 litre bottle that are being issued with the new combat vest that contains 1 litre and with a wider opening. The people that have used it says it´s better then the old one.
Looks ok - is the metal strap part of it? Whats it for?
Sorry about all the questions!!! :oops:
Looks ok - is the metal strap part of it? Whats it for?
Sorry about all the questions!!! :oops:
It´s only the crook that is metal the rest is leather. Most people use it when not carrying combat vest/belt and then attach it to a their pants. I have seen people attach it inside their jackets when it´s really cold and you dont want the water to freeze. The shape of the bottle is´about the same as the americans so it rides pretty comfortably.
the naughty boy
13-04-2004, 12:06
i bought one from mill*ts the other week ......it leaked from the cap. what a p.o.s !left me thirsty and unable to cook my rice.
there should have been a picture of mickey mouse on it to warn me!!!
bloody plastic effort ..talk about false economy!!!
oh well all my own fault for being cheap...although "it" wasnt! :rant:
the naughty boy
16-04-2004, 21:03
look at this madness!!!
a tilley lantern for under a tenner? gadzooks!
check out the 66 pattern trousers too..fully lined these are the beas trousers i have ever been in.wear them all the time in the woods.cause of the lining.
salubrification indeed :wink:
look at this madness!!!
a tilley lantern for under a tenner? gadzooks!
check out the 66 pattern trousers too..fully lined these are the beas trousers i have ever been in.wear them all the time in the woods.cause of the lining.
salubrification indeed :wink:
Is that a pump up pressureized lantern or the type with a wick? Either way a good deal but a MUCH better one if it is pressureized! :-D
RAPPLEBY2000
16-04-2004, 22:53
the fake 58 bottles have exactly the same markings including the arrow!
best advice from me is to borrow a real one and use it to compare!
the argument pro or anti surplus will continue, i use 3 58 bottles for bushcraft stuff and for hiking a platypus and a 1L nalgene bottle!
to me genuine surplus gear always seems far stronger/harder wearing (another way to find the fakes!)than it's civilian counterpart, but civilian gear on the whole seems to be lighter and more comfortable!
you pay's yer money and makes yer choice! :wink:
RAPPLEBY's correct the crow’s foot is no indication of whether it’s a fake or not as it is replicated on many copies
check the seal to make sure that it wont leak and examine the seam on the bottom, fakes often have a more prominent seam which is prone to splitting when put under pressure.
rapidboy
23-06-2004, 19:55
Mine are genuine and have these markings on them:
On the front it has
KEEP AWAY FROM
HEAT OR FLAME
(arrow pointing up)
STOCK No973-6665
1990
OSPREY
On the cap it has
OSPREY
(arrow)CATNo973-6908
On the bottom it has
ENGLAND
CM/02
Hope that helps :-)
Just got one ,markings much the same but not quite.
The mug is marked
KEEP AWAY FROM
HEAT OR FLAME
(arrow pointing up)
CAT.NO973-6904
On the front it has
KEEP AWAY FROM
HEAT OR FLAME
(arrow pointing up)
CAT NO973-6665
On the cap it has
(arrow)CAT.NO.973-6908
On the bottom it has no markings
The seller described it as
(New) Water Bottle & Cup British Army Issue. Cat No: 973-6904 -- 2003 -- Brand New Condition
Dont know where the 2003 came from.
Does it sound like a fake?
The seal is white foam not rubber.
Also no OSPREY or date.
Like all things the military are always changing supplier - they dont say 'remember your kit is provided by the lowest bidder' for nothing.
The 2003 in your sellers describtion probably comes from the fact that these are the newest batch of waterbottles made for the forces.
Remember the markings described above in this thread are the old markings and as such are found on either old war stocks or second hand bottles.
Ultimately you should be more worried about the following - does it hold water without leaking? Is it tough enough not to break easily? Did you get value for money?
The numbers won't help you ID a fake ... if they've copied the bottle and mug then copying the numbers won't be a challenge.
rapidboy
23-06-2004, 21:33
It's been a while since i used one and this just seemed lighter in construction and the seal appears to be lesser quality.
I have another "new" one coming from another source so i can compare the 2 in a couple of days.
I don't want something thats going to let me down by leaking all over my pack.
As they are so cheap it's hard to believe that anyone would waste the time making copies.
As they are so cheap it's hard to believe that anyone would waste the time making copies.
My thought too - but remember these things come from places that can make a half-decent digital watch, ship it halfway around the world and sell it for a quid or so (cheaper than a replacement battery would cost) - and still make money!
Very true Adi.
Sad fact is the same people who make the cheap watch for a pound also make the same watch for the people who sell them for fifty pound they just change the packing!
Is that a dragon your slaying in your avatar with your axe?
Is that a dragon your slaying in your avatar with your axe?
It's just stunned!
Tut - an you living so close to the sacred Isle!
The druids would be turning in their graves - or burial moulds!
rapidboy
26-06-2004, 20:16
The one on the left is the dodgy one.
When it's side by side with a genuine version the differences are clear.
The gen issue version is very solid and slightly bigger.
It's marked as per SquirrelBoy's description apart from the date (2001)
The fake cost me 3 times what the gen item cost.
http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/rapidboy1/394_9439_1.jpg
I emailed the seller and he didn't admit it's a fake ,just that he's had no previous complaints.
He's still selling them as genuine issue items on evilbay. :evil:
This one's on it's way back.
He's still selling them as genuine issue items on evilbay. :evil:
This one's on it's way back.
Dunno if it does any good but ebay has a compliants reporting system - might be worth a try