View Full Version : Gas Guzzlers
janiepopps
21-07-2006, 19:01
Greenpeace :You_Rock_
http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/gasguzzler/?CFID=3833284&CFTOKEN=36974924
Cor........Nice car, I could do with one of them, much better mpg than mine.........
Sorry, I had better explain before you eat me Janie.
I am a builder and tow a big heavy trailer for my work to carry my tools and aggrigate about, a big 4x4 is the best tool for me, vans do not make good tow vehicles. I currently use an old landy 110. I am not a commuter, so I hope this is ok for you..........
havingagiraffe
21-07-2006, 19:47
Greenpeace :You_Rock_
http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/gasguzzler/?CFID=3833284&CFTOKEN=36974924
Interesting link. :) I read somewhere that it's more environmentally friendly to drive an old but well maintained car as the pollution created in the construction of a new car outweighs the benefits in terms of cleaner exhaust emmissions. Anyone know if this is true? :dunno: It sounds quite plausible to me. We all know that the environmental benefits of using old fashioned Rockwool insulation is outweighed by the environmental damage caused by the factories which produce it. Regarding the micro cars recommended in the link, 50mpg would soon become 5mpg if I were to have one, as I'd have to make ten times as many trips as I do at the moment ...can't see a Smart Car towing much more than 300kg of timber....and of of course, it'd have to be organically grown free trade timber from a sustainable source :rolleyes: On a similar theme, check out the last few pages of this thread.
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=7763http://tinypic.com/i796d3.jpg
janiepopps
21-07-2006, 19:49
Hey don't panic JP - For I am not the judger of all things 4x4, I just like a bl**dy good ad when I see one!
What I did find interesting was according to the website:
'According to The Independent, one in seven cars sold in London is now a 4x4'
Bizarre breed them city folk :confused:
Can't wait to see that one on channel 4 tho :D
j
havingagiraffe
21-07-2006, 19:58
vans do not make good tow vehicles.........
http://i5.tinypic.com/20kyhbc.jpg
...but Mini Coopers do... :rolleyes: ...:drive: ....surprisingly quick but not so clever when it comes to slowing down... :eek: ....eventually had to be sensible and swap it for a 110.... :)
janiepopps
21-07-2006, 20:07
Oh Blimey, just read the end pages as you advised Havingagiraffe, and am now a little scared of the onslaught that may be about to follow...
...anyone that posts here please do so in the spirit of fun and if you want to rant then go back to the old posting and do so there!
I only put the link in because I thought it was funny and don't want to offend anyone big, hairy and who drives a bigger car than me!!! :p
havingagiraffe
21-07-2006, 20:11
Oh Blimey, just read the end pages as you advised Havingagiraffe, and am now a little scared of the onslaught that may be about to follow...
...anyone that posts here please do so in the spirit of fun and if you want to rant then go back to the old posting and do so there!
I only put the link in because I thought it was funny and don't want to offend anyone big, hairy and who drives a bigger car than me!!! :p
I was too scared to post on the old thread .... :o
Hey don't panic JP - For I am not the judger of all things 4x4, I just like a bl**dy good ad when I see one!
What I did find interesting was according to the website:
'According to The Independent, one in seven cars sold in London is now a 4x4'
Bizarre breed them city folk :confused:
Can't wait to see that one on channel 4 tho :D
j
Sorry Janie, it was a good ad. Its just everyone mentions 4x4s as nasty things and as someone who really needs one, I do take it to heart sometimes........
http://i5.tinypic.com/20kyhbc.jpg
...but Mini Coopers do... :rolleyes: ...:drive: ....surprisingly quick but not so clever when it comes to slowing down... :eek: ....eventually had to be sensible and swap it for a 110.... :)
If your mini tried to tow my trailer, it would pull its chassis off or bury itself. Like the photo btw...........
Yeah the old thread did get hairy :D and I was in it :eek:
To be honest I don't think *anyone* has any objection to those who use the 4x4's as necessities; it's the vanity/ego town only driving owners that get on folks wicks :rolleyes:
Cheers,
Toddy
Spikey DaPikey
21-07-2006, 21:50
Not got a car, so i use this beast.....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/BikerSpike/Bikerstuff/bikesandtrikes39.jpg
janiepopps
21-07-2006, 21:55
Sorry Janie, it was a good ad. Its just everyone mentions 4x4s as nasty things and as someone who really needs one, I do take it to heart sometimes........
No worries JP, my dad is a farmer and owns a 4x4 and one day when I grow up(!) and have my own smallholding then I'm sure I'll be needing one too... :) It really did just make me laugh - honest!
BTW - 'Sorry, I had better explain before you eat me Janie.' ??? :confused: Is it normal to eat someone in Horsham driving a big car??!?? ;)
Interesting link. :) I read somewhere that it's more environmentally friendly to drive an old but well maintained car as the pollution created in the construction of a new car outweighs the benefits in terms of cleaner exhaust emmissions. Anyone know if this is true? [/IMG]
The key to this is "well maintained". Because the bottom line is MPG. If the car started life at 30MPG and over the years, that has dropped to 15mpg, then the answer is no, ditch it and get a new car. The carbon output per ton of steel and aluminium is pretty constant, regardless of where the steel is smelted. It's pretty easy to estimate the amount of CO2 produced in manufacture, by knowing the weight of constituent materials. So basically we can fairly accurately work out how much CO2 is produced when making a given model of car.
On balance, an old car with a low MPG doing 12,000 miles a year, puts out more carbon than an economical car, even if you bought a brand new economical car every 2 or 3 years.
Obviously, if the old car is very well maintained and it's just as economical as it's modern day counterparts, then that is a different story - but how many 1976 series landrovers have the same MPG as a 2006 defender? If the 2006 defender is significantly more economical, then you'd be more environmentally friendly by buying the newer vehicle.
If your 20 year old landy does 30mpg, there is no real eco-reason to upgrade. But if it does 12mpg, there is every reason to trade it in.
:lmao: , what a popular guy! the moral of the story is "dont drive a 4X4 if you work for greenpeace"
demographic
22-07-2006, 11:26
I thought it was quite funny to be honest, perhaps not to be taken completley seriously and I can hardly talk with owning a 500 twostroke that gets MPG that I would rather not talk about on a forum that is interested in enviromental issues :eek:
Spacemonkey
22-07-2006, 11:26
But what do they use to get to their far flung ecowarrior battle grounds? Eh? Solar powered are they??
And what about that time they used their ship to circle an oil rig as a protest- just how much fuel did that use??
Time to get the French back in I say...
I can't seem to open the Greenpeace link my Mac sulks and quits! These are my observations though.
Reading through this thread though I seem to get the drift. I echo Toddys comment re vanity and necessity. I live 30 miles from London and although I have never considered working there as my work is land based (trees etc) the norm locally now is to commute there. There are whole villages (dormatorys) where every other driveway seems to have a 4x4 parked on it. The dominant being BMW or Mercedes with a few Toyota Land Criusers and to cap it off the Mr steroid himself the Porsch. Not one with a tow bar. Consequently why do people have them? Except for vanity. It also seems like the colour in vogue is silver. I can promise that if you stood on any of the lanes during rush hour/school run every sixth car will be a 4x4 and silver ones will be in the majority.
From the working side most 4x4 builders trucks are crewcab Japs with plant trailers behind. Most farmers have LR 90 or 110 pickups although those that don't, have Jap 4x4 vans because they hate LRs and think them unreliable and expensive!
Pony club is mainly LR discos with a smattering of the superb Subaru. (to think you could enter an amateur rally with this car one day and then tow your horse box the next is not a bad combination!)
I said in the earlier thread that I had a 110 TD5 and just to finish off I compare this with the earlier 110 LR Defender. The earlier LR is more economical than the new one! by 70 miles to the tankfull!(400 miles to 330) Over a year that is quite a difference.
Series LRs get a big wave as those that ride in them are brave souls and those that use them for work need a medal and must have huge arm muscles to steer them with! They are still superb vehicles,although round here are now quite rare.
I go very much with the bike too, Spikey Da pikey, but as I get older I am more scared of the roads. In particular the big silver 4x4s cutting the corners. On a bike that is frightening!
Please note these are just my observations and not aimed at being offensive to anyone.
Swyn.
No worries JP, my dad is a farmer and owns a 4x4 and one day when I grow up(!) and have my own smallholding then I'm sure I'll be needing one too... :) It really did just make me laugh - honest!
BTW - 'Sorry, I had better explain before you eat me Janie.' ??? :confused: Is it normal to eat someone in Horsham driving a big car??!?? ;)
No not normal..........Judging you by your first post, I thought you were an eco warrior and you were in full agreement with that ad, and was going to lay into me for owning a 4x4. Now I find you are a farmers daughter and I now see you in a different light, esp as you want a smallholding.
I now see you as a realist and a lover of the land, I may be totally wrong of course as I can only go by what I see you write, same as everyone on here, I don't know.
Good luck to you with your smallholding, it is something I would love (I think).
I have been working for someone today, who owns a smallholding and produces some lovely meat. Being paid in meat is a good way to go...........
janiepopps
22-07-2006, 19:17
Well, I am in full agreement with the ad for someone who drives a car like that and the roughest bit of track they'll see all day are speed bumps outside a school.
Im an eco warrier in as much as I belong to Greenpeace & BCUK because I believe we are killing the one thing we depend on and it saddens me.
I do such small things to try to make a difference, recycling, composting, growing instead of buying plastic food, picking up other peoples litter and handing it back to them (try it - its hilarious!), canooeing not jetskiing, trying to reuse & adapt what I already have before having to buy new, avoiding plastic carrier bags like the plague, and making people smile to make it a happier place to be :240:
But Im by no means perfect - I drive a diesel car 200+ miles a week to get to work. I understand its difficult but I guess so long as we all do a bit its got to better than the alternative.
I truly look forward to the day when my work life and my home life become one :D
BTW - what was todays currency - lamb, beef, chicken...?
j
Well, I am in full agreement with the ad for someone who drives a car like that and the roughest bit of track they'll see all day are speed bumps outside a school.
Im an eco warrier in as much as I belong to Greenpeace & BCUK because I believe we are killing the one thing we depend on and it saddens me.
I do such small things to try to make a difference, recycling, composting, growing instead of buying plastic food, picking up other peoples litter and handing it back to them (try it - its hilarious!), canooeing not jetskiing, trying to reuse & adapt what I already have before having to buy new, avoiding plastic carrier bags like the plague, and making people smile to make it a happier place to be :240:
But Im by no means perfect - I drive a diesel car 200+ miles a week to get to work. I understand its difficult but I guess so long as we all do a bit its got to better than the alternative.
I truly look forward to the day when my work life and my home life become one :D
BTW - what was todays currency - lamb, beef, chicken...?
j
Penny's actually, lol........I think you have your head screwed on right Janie and if everybody did ther bit, it would be a better world for sure.......
I was in Montana, visiting my parents a few years ago and this guy came to visit, it was very cold outside and he left his car running to keep it warm, he stayed all evening with his V8 burbling away outside........
Saying that, I traveled by airplane to get there, so maybe I am the biggest culprit ????
I love my landy !!
{and it's silver}
pierre girard
23-07-2006, 20:52
3/4 or 5/8 ton extended cab 4X4 pickups, usually Fords, are "the thing" with the guys I work with. I have to drive quite a ways to work, living back in the brush, and try for cars with good mileage.
One of my co-workers moved out a ways recently, and found he couldn't afford to keep fuel in his truck. He bought a 1990 Honda Civic, and has fallen in love with it. He gets 48 miles to the gallon with it.
He's got me convinced. My current car gets about 35 miles to the gallon. I'm keeping my eyes peeled for an old Honda Civic.
Im my experience of them, greenpiece members dont own 4x4s...they borrow them.
and I couldnt drive a honda, i live in honda territory.....
One vehicle i reccomend wholeheartedly for economy and practicality is that Japanese quissential, the lunchbox van.
dont believe what you hear about engine inaccessabily, take the seats out and its there. (try a new car for awkward engines....)
havingagiraffe
24-07-2006, 08:40
If your mini tried to tow my trailer, it would pull its chassis off or bury itself. Like the photo btw...........
The plate on the towbar said the Mini was good for a 500kg braked trailer. It was attatched to rear valance with two M8 bolts, and to the pan under the seat with another four M8s. That was all.... :eek: I think the shell would have sheared if I tried to pull the dolly with a car on it...:rolleyes: The dolly in the photo weighed about 300kg unladen and was about as big as anyone sensible would tow with a car weighing less than 600kg.
havingagiraffe
24-07-2006, 08:47
The key to this is "well maintained". Because the bottom line is MPG. If the car started life at 30MPG and over the years, that has dropped to 15mpg, then the answer is no, ditch it and get a new car. The carbon output per ton of steel and aluminium is pretty constant, regardless of where the steel is smelted. It's pretty easy to estimate the amount of CO2 produced in manufacture, by knowing the weight of constituent materials. So basically we can fairly accurately work out how much CO2 is produced when making a given model of car.
On balance, an old car with a low MPG doing 12,000 miles a year, puts out more carbon than an economical car, even if you bought a brand new economical car every 2 or 3 years.
Obviously, if the old car is very well maintained and it's just as economical as it's modern day counterparts, then that is a different story - but how many 1976 series landrovers have the same MPG as a 2006 defender? If the 2006 defender is significantly more economical, then you'd be more environmentally friendly by buying the newer vehicle.
If your 20 year old landy does 30mpg, there is no real eco-reason to upgrade. But if it does 12mpg, there is every reason to trade it in.
Thanks for the interesting information. :) Are there any figures on whole life environmental impact? For example, a Honda XL125 uses the same amount of raw materials as a Chinese XL125 copy, and does roughly the same mpg. However, it has a longer life expectancy so it should be better for the planet in the long term. The Japanese factory probably has cleaner emmissions than the Chinese factory, but on the other hand the Chinese workers probably cycle to work rather than driving or using the train.
Environmentalism's a tricky one... :dunno:
havingagiraffe
24-07-2006, 08:49
I love my landy !!
{and it's silver}
I love mine too... even if a Transit would be better 99% of the time... :o
Just a thought that PG has reminded me of. When I had to travel quite a number of miles for my work. I found that if I owned a vehicle that did less than 25 MPG I could not afford to run it as I would have to sacrifice other parts of my living to pay for this consumption.
PS Eggs are a good currency here.
how much damage does get rainbow Warrior stuck on a coral reef do?
None at all if the spindoctors do their job right....
bogflogger
24-07-2006, 22:33
At least Greenpeace are doing something a bit more constructive than just "Mouthing Off" on a supposedly, enviromentally caring forum.
problem with Greenpeace these days is a mixture of bad/sloppy science and knee jerk swipping at easy targets.
I agree that there is no real need for ANY big car 2x4, 4x4 or 6x6 in town. They should have a go at old tatty cars (a 2CV pumps out as much as some 4x4s) and excessively large luxuary cars.
End on rant.
Video is OK - but it carries on the myth that only 4x4 are polluting.
problem with Greenpeace these days is a mixture of bad/sloppy science and knee jerk swipping at easy targets.
can you give us some examples EdS?
well you could start with the Brent Spar cock up.
Or the fact that my Land Rover 90 is smaller and does more MPG than the car some of the people on the Greenpeace stand as Glastonbury last year (those on the anti 4x4 bit) travelled up in.
- mine does get use off road as it is meant to be, plus I have an Astra as a "sensilbe" car.
You can't put all 4x4 in the same box
our disco did the same MPG as our current car (merc) round town. Of course both are quite large but then my parents use 7 seats, the merc is better on a run but I wonder if the disco would be better when towing a caravan.
Also having spoken to someone who spent a lot of time working in A&E I'm not sure if the big 4x4 are any worse to be hit by.
Some 4x4 may not slow down so quickly though and may not handle so well round corners, but this again is specific to each car
I wonder how many people could car share but don't
bogflogger
25-07-2006, 11:52
Judging by the thousands of cars stuck in "Gridlock" that I filtered past daily as a Motorbike Courier, I would say that at least 90% of cars had only one occupant.
Furthermore, the more upmarket the car, the more likely this was.
This thread got me googling and I found this link you might like / hate!
http://www.stopurban4x4s.org.uk/reasons.htm
Flux
Klenchblaize
25-07-2006, 11:58
What car should a member of Amnesty International drive?
I’m sorry, but for every person who genuinely feels that Landrover owners are serious obstacle to a healthy planet, there are another 10 who use this debate simply to further perpetuate the class war. Until recently it was that bloke sitting atop a 17 hands-high hunter dressed in red – now it is the in-town 4X4 driver who is seen to epitomise the excesses of capitalism and the so-called "new rich".
As soon as Mayor “I’ve Got My Head So Far Up My Trotskyite A___” Livingston chirped up I just new I was on the right track!
Cheers
BorderReiver
25-07-2006, 12:11
What car should a member of Amnesty International drive?
Cheers
:confused: :confused:
Sorry,what have Amnesty International got to do with cars?
Stopurban4x4. Same old half truth etc..
No 2 - your familily will fit in a saloon or people carrier, like people carriers are smaller than than and more fuel efficent than most 4x4.
No 9 Better driving time - 4x4 more difficult to park, not at all its down to the driver. How many baddly parked Micras do you see.
True there is no need for most "Chelsea Tractors" in town or any large big engined car. Do not forget Subaru, Audi etc are do 4x4 as is the Fiat Panda.
bogflogger
25-07-2006, 12:24
Yes, it's all a Class War Mate. :cool:
Have you actually been to London since the Congestion Charge was introduced, and seen for yourself how much more plesant the City is?
Or does that interfere with your Daily Telegraph issue blinkers?
I reckon the Discovery and Range Rover are fantastic cars - marvels of technological achievements. But I couldn't ever own one (assuming I could afford it). If nothing else, they're dogs to drive compared to a similar-priced and specced BMW 5-series or something. Plus their fuel bills will be huge. Then on top of that is the environmental impact.
I had a whale of a time last week when I spent an afternoon driving around in a Defender 110 at a 4x4 site in Wales. The instructor was top notch, a great guy, and manages his woodlands to encourage more wildlife. And the Landie was amazingly capable. His sad story was that recently they had a corporate event, and the MD turned up in his new Range Rover. But he wouldn't let it be taken around the site, because he didn't want it to get dirty. That was probably his only chance ever to actually try out a fraction of what the Range Rover was designed to do. A huge waste of a car.
And that, really, is the crux of most people's problems with 4x4s - they have these unused capabilities that add way too much to the weight, cost and environmental impact.
Stopurban4x4. Same old half truth etc..
No 2 - your familily will fit in a saloon or people carrier, like people carriers are smaller than than and more fuel efficent than most 4x4.
No 9 Better driving time - 4x4 more difficult to park, not at all its down to the driver. How many baddly parked Micras do you see.
True there is no need for most "Chelsea Tractors" in town or any large big engined car. Do not forget Subaru, Audi etc are do 4x4 as is the Fiat Panda.
what about the other 8 reasons?
Flux
gregorach
25-07-2006, 12:44
Stopurban4x4. Same old half truth etc..
No 2 - your familily will fit in a saloon or people carrier, like people carriers are smaller than than and more fuel efficent than most 4x4.
No 9 Better driving time - 4x4 more difficult to park, not at all its down to the driver. How many baddly parked Micras do you see.
True there is no need for most "Chelsea Tractors" in town or any large big engined car. Do not forget Subaru, Audi etc are do 4x4 as is the Fiat Panda.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that most people carriers are more fuel efficient than most large 4x4s, especially in terms of consumption per person (assuming a high load factor).
And you can't park a 4x4 in a Micra-sized space, no matter how good a driver you are... ;)
MartiniDave
25-07-2006, 12:46
A straight forward comparison between my Disco (1996 with 166,000 on the clock) and our marketing managers Mini Cooper S - 2004 30,000 on the clock.
MPG - Disco 31 on average, Mini 29
No of spaces used in the car park - 1 each
Seating capacity Disco 7, Mini 4
I plan to run my car another 2 years at least, it'll probably do another 10 to be honest. The Mini is muted to be replaced soon "before the emmisions go up".
A few final points, I worked BL**DY hard to earn the money to drive the car I chose.
One short holiday flight will put more greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere than me driving for my whole lifetime.
Wasn't WW1 & WW2 fought to give us all the freedom of choice?
Rant over
Dave
bogflogger
25-07-2006, 12:57
Oh yes, the freedom of choice to give children Asthma and other respiritory deseases with your exhaust emissions.
The freedom to clog up the road networks till they Gridlock with all the other individuals exercising the same choice.
Etc, Etc, Etc.
The bottom line is that it is not 4 x 4's that are the problem.
The problem IS that there are far too many cars on the roads, being used for totally unnesscary journeys.
jdlenton
25-07-2006, 13:00
Just a note guys we've been down this road before and it didn't turn out well I'm keeping an eye on this thread so lets not let it deteriorate to a point were i have to take action
And you can't park a 4x4 in a Micra-sized space, no matter how good a driver you are
want to bet - do not even have to move the Micra first :D
Just had a quick look at people carrier vs 4x4 mpg. Pretty much the same for the same side vehicle with same side engine. what ever you get with a 4.6 V8 petrol aint going to be good, weather it is a 4x4, saloon or peole carrier. But they all (even Range Rover) can be got with under 3l diesel engines.
The whole anti 4x4 movement is clouding the issue of too many cars in town, a bad fashion for big flash/ brash ones (but that is the whole bling culture) and p**s poor nonm intergrated public transport.
If they ban 4x4 people will just buy big saloons/estates or trated up panel vans, sorry people carriers, which not do any thing to tackle the real issue. 25% of cars sold in London might be 4x4 (does that include Scoobies etc or just LR et al) but I bet there as many if not more big slaoon/estates, with the same engines and footprint, sold.
Mind you I'm not that bothered if London is gridlocked and choking 'cos our air is pretty good now they closed down all the industry. :240:
Bootstrap Bob
25-07-2006, 13:31
I'm with EdS all the way on this one.
Greenpeace and all those other so called environmentalists need to look at their own circumstances before having a go at 4x4 drivers. Have you any idea how much fuel outboard motors use on their boats and not to mention The Rainbow Warrier.
Don't get me wrong I'm all in favour of doing your bit to minimise damage to the environment and I do my best, I recycle rubbish, I compost kitchen waste and I don't fly - there are plenty of places to go in this country. However, I'm not going to let it take over my life and stop me enjoying myself. Yes I own a Landrover but I don't drive it around towns (large 4x4s don't belong there) but I do drive it off road and I limit my mileage to around 1500 a year. I have a Subaru for every day use :) Still a 4x4 but more economical than the Mini EdS mentioned and many other non 4x4 cars and MPVs.
Good point MartiniDave about the fuel consumption figures, you can also apply this to size. If you work out the area that a vehicle occupies on the road, by multiplying length by width you will find some surprising figures. A Landrover 90 for example occupies less road space than a typical family saloon car. The fact that it is more square and is taller gives the illusion that it is much larger.
I said to myself I wasn't going to get into this debate because it doesn't matter what arguments you put forward even if you have objective data to back it up there are always going to be people out there who want to jump on the environmental band wagon and point the fingure because it somehow makes them feel better.
Sorry guys, rant over, I'll try not to do it again :red:
arctic hobo
25-07-2006, 13:34
But what do they use to get to their far flung ecowarrior battle grounds? Eh? Solar powered are they??
And what about that time they used their ship to circle an oil rig as a protest- just how much fuel did that use??
Time to get the French back in I say...
Solar powered? Yes. http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2001/11/30/greenpeaceSeesBrightFutureForS olarPower
And the ship uses sail power most of the time: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/fr/thumb/d/dd/Le-rainbow-warrior-ii-2.jpg/300px-Le-rainbow-warrior-ii-2.jpg
bogflogger
25-07-2006, 13:49
But what do they use to get to their far flung ecowarrior battle grounds? Eh? Solar powered are they??
And what about that time they used their ship to circle an oil rig as a protest- just how much fuel did that use??
Time to get the French back in I say...
So, are you seriously suggesting that Greenpeace should be so 100% Ecologically Sound, that they are unable to carry out any kind of effective protest campaigns?
Thank the God's that they are more pragmatic and realistic.
One of the (many) problems is that 4x4s are easy targets. This is great for Greenpeace, but bad for any decent argument because there are always counter-arguments comparing with other vehicles.
I've just come back from lunch in London (City), and the problem is not 4x4s, but delivery vans. They're everywhere, and suffer from all the problems of 4x4s - big, noisy, smelly, polluting, minimal aerodynamics, blunt noses etc etc - with the added problem with seemingly all being driven really badly.
BAN THE VAN! ;)
And while we're at it, the London Taxi too - they're actually quite big, and have horribly noisy and smelly engines, and hardly use the most modern energy-efficient technologies.
bogflogger
25-07-2006, 14:58
Got to say I agree with every word!
It is Completely Insane that Deliverys take place during the Daytime, when most of Central London is Totally Deserted at night.
And as for Black Taxi's they are Regulated by Act of Parliament, Cabbie's have been screaming for a better choice of vehicle for years.
(But we had better leave Taxi's out of this, or we will have 'Sid Scroggis' from the Licenced Taxi Drivers Association Ranting at us. :D )
dommyracer
25-07-2006, 15:10
I think they're heading in the right direction with London Taxis to be honest.
The emissions strategy is pretty robust, and one of the reasons for insisting that cabs have a small turning circle is to cut down on wasted miles.
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/pco/downloads/emissions-strategy-for-taxis.pdf
Bootstrap Bob
25-07-2006, 16:38
Dommyracer is correct, work is being done to improve the taxi situation in London as a result of this PCO emmissions strategy. (I know because I have been actively involved in bringing them up to date for two years).
Bogflogger - taxi drivers may have been asking for more choice in vehicles but they just won't get them in London because of the tight turning circle requirement which Dommyracer quite rightly points out is to cut down on wasted miles. It is also safer if a taxi can turn round in one rather than shuffling. I do know that taxi drivers who have tried other vehicles outside of London end up selling them and going back to black cabs because the other vehicles are just not durable enough.
The reason there are no other taxi vehicles in London is because the conversions are based on front wheel drive vehicles which cannot turn as sharply due to the front driveshafts.
Mark.a - If you are concerned about noisy polluting vans in London you may be in for a surprise soon. Have a look at this site.
http://www.modecvehicles.com
Something else I have been involved in over the past three years.
By the way I'm not Sid Scroggis if anyone was wondering, It's just a coincidence that the discussion came up :)
Spacemonkey
25-07-2006, 16:38
I think they're heading in the right direction with London Taxis to be honest.
The emissions strategy is pretty robust, and one of the reasons for insisting that cabs have a small turning circle is to cut down on wasted miles.
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/pco/downloads/emissions-strategy-for-taxis.pdf
And as an ex London biker, I can assure you that they can use that shrp turning circle at a moments notice, and without any indication too! OUCH!!
Spacemonkey
25-07-2006, 16:48
So, are you seriously suggesting that Greenpeace should be so 100% Ecologically Sound, that they are unable to carry out any kind of effective protest campaigns?
Thank the God's that they are more pragmatic and realistic.
In a way, yes. Let he who is free of sin etc etc... just as I would not expect police officers to be criminals, or politicians to be overpaid, corrupt lying Bstds only looking out for their own agenda.
I agree that urban 4x4s are a stupid idea, but as someone said, they are merely status symbols, and we do still have some freedom of choice here. If you ban urban 4x4s (which would merely be class prejudice) these people will find something else equally big and pollutive. Oh, and very few people buy the petrol engined varients in this country, so the modern outputs are similar to slightly older 'normal' cars.
I think that Greenpeace do some good work against large corporate polluters etc but how about leaving the little guy alone? Why not campaign against excess oil based packaging in consumer products? I'm sure that little lot does more harm than London's 4x4 brigades.
And as an aside note, have you seen the state of london roads recently? THAT'S (THAT@S) why you NEED a 4x4 in London!! ;) :rolleyes:
Dommyracer is correct, work is being done to improve the taxi situation in London as a result of this PCO emmissions strategy. (I know because I have been actively involved in bringing them up to date for two years).
Bogflogger - taxi drivers may have been asking for more choice in vehicles but they just won't get them in London because of the tight turning circle requirement which Dommyracer quite rightly points out is to cut down on wasted miles. It is also safer if a taxi can turn round in one rather than shuffling. I do know that taxi drivers who have tried other vehicles outside of London end up selling them and going back to black cabs because the other vehicles are just not durable enough.
The reason there are no other taxi vehicles in London is because the conversions are based on front wheel drive vehicles which cannot turn as sharply due to the front driveshafts.
Mark.a - If you are concerned about noisy polluting vans in London you may be in for a surprise soon. Have a look at this site.
http://www.modecvehicles.com
Something else I have been involved in over the past three years.
By the way I'm not Sid Scroggis if anyone was wondering, It's just a coincidence that the discussion came up :)
That's interesting stuff, Bob. Since most modern diesels are relatively quiet, very efficient and many come with particle filters, it seems that taxis are stuck in the dark ages. Maybe the engines are much better now than they used to be, but how does a standard taxi engine compare with the latest technologies?
The Modec looks great - let's hope we get to see some. When will they be seen on the streets? I've seen a few Financial Times electric vans, but they're pretty small - is it the same company?
I'm sure that most modern vans are actually not too bad with regards to efficiency, but the standard driver seems to accelerate madly, hold on to gears far too long, and stop-start all day, thus giving minimal efficiency, maximum emissions and maximum noise.
havingagiraffe
25-07-2006, 22:46
I'm sure that most modern vans are actually not too bad with regards to efficiency, but the standard driver seems to accelerate madly, hold on to gears far too long, and stop-start all day, thus giving minimal efficiency, maximum emissions and maximum noise.
:offtopic: Back in the day, I used to drive a Transit on multidrop work, so perhaps I can shed some light on Mark's observations. :rolleyes: The employer inevitably sets an unrealistic number of drops :rant: , so the driver is forced to shave a few seconds of each trip by hitting the redline in each gear, braking at the last minute and generally giving it 100% to try and meet his target. :deal: Driving a van is a relatively unskilled non union job, so if a driver asks his employer for a more realistic pace he can be replaced with someone who is willing to hammer the van between drops. :buttkick: To give you an idea of how hard our Transit was driven, we had to change the front tyres every 12,000 miles. :eek: The increased costs of constantly pushing the van to the limit must have outweighed the efficiencies of making a few more drops every day. :banghead:
Despite my environmental concerns, I have to admit :o it was kinda fun to drive a vehicle fast without having to worry about paying for fuel and brake pads. :drive:
I know we try to keep politics off BCUK, :ban: but as long as we have capitalism :bandit: , I don't see how the environment will get the attention it deserves. The Swedish Social Democrats came closer than most to striking a balance between consumerism and environmentalism but they got voted out partly because their "decent policies" (which included no adverts during kids TV, and workers automatically becoming shareholders in their companies as well as respecting the environment :240: ) made Sweden uncompetitive in the international economy.
Bootstrap Bob
26-07-2006, 11:37
Mark
The latest taxis coming off the production line do actually meet current emissions and use the modern Ford diesel engine found in the transit. I think what you are referring to are the older models which date back 20 or even 30 years (the chassis is still based on the original design which was done in the 1960s). The problem is that they are built to last, taxi drivers wouldn't buy them if they didn't hence my previous comments about the alternatives.
As for the Modec vehicle, you should see some early next year (my guess). The engineering is currently heading for production and the factory is getting kitted out. Not sure I can tell you any more due to confidentiality I'm afraid :o
Klenchblaize
26-07-2006, 14:46
Yes, it's all a Class War Mate. :cool:
Have you actually been to London since the Congestion Charge was introduced, and seen for yourself how much more plesant the City is?
Or does that interfere with your Daily Telegraph issue blinkers?
I do not seek to contest that there are too many damn vehicles in London, just that singling out 4x4 drivers is no more than tinkering whilst Rome burns and frankly takes peoples eye off the bigger picture. That the waters are, as you so clearly acknowledge, further muddied by a pre-occupation with class - born of, it is strongly suggested, either hate and/or jealously for the visible trappings of capitalist ‘success’ will ensure but one thing: Namely that meaningful debate, or perhaps the lack of it, will provide all the clarity and reason of a Highland river in full spate.
The Times in tabloid format actually. I guess that I should take comfort from being spared the suggestion I read the Daily Mail though!
Cheers
gregorach
26-07-2006, 15:07
[...]just that singling out 4x4 drivers is no more than tinkering whilst Rome burns and frankly takes peoples eye off the bigger picture. [...]
True. But if you're trying to hammer in a wedge, it helps to start with the thin end. ;) :)
I have had discussions with other greenies who want to go for much more severe actions (ban all cars, ban all air travel, etc) but the fact is that you'd get more political traction campaigning for compulsory euthanasia at the age of 30.
In green politics, the side arguing for all-out, hardcore positions is know as "fundie", while the faction looking for incremental gains via the established political process is called "realo". I've never been able to decide which camp I'm in. ;)
bogflogger
26-07-2006, 16:23
Klenchblaise, I really do not understand where you are coming from here.
It was not me who started off by ranting about "Which car should a member of Ammnesty International drive" or mentioned "I've got my head so far up my Trotskyist **** Livingstone."
And as for the "Class War" can I suggest that it exists only in your own head.
it may well be a class war.
In this country there is no respect for money. a lot of my famly are landlords (of the sort dependent on their rental income) and they get treated like ****.
Then you read online of someone bemoaning people being aloowed to own their own property...where are these folk going to live, pray? The government sure arent going to house them.
on the subject of big trucks, go see what your local council estate chavs own...
...as a sole vehicle.
bogflogger
28-07-2006, 15:09
Why on earth should there be any respect for money?
Having it gives you no extra moral right to pollute the Earth.
BTW. I Live on a Council Estate and there are NO 4 x 4's here.
Furthermore, I suggest that you think REALLY carefully before calling me a Chav, OK?
Just going to add my bit about 4x4's.
My Landrover 110 does 31mpg, just worked it out over the last 700 odd miles. Many smaller vehicles do worse than that; a friends motorbike does about the same, he just gets places a lot quicker!
The Landy is 10 years old and will still be going strong in another 10 years, not many cars will be. Why do people have to have the newest car? It is no longer or wider than than many estate cars or people carriers, it is just its height that makes it look big.
When the oil runs out and/or gets stupidly expensive, it'll still be on the road using biodiesel or veg oil.
Old Land Rovers are the best vehicles ever made!
Vigorous discussion is one thing but politics, personal insults and discourtesy are *not* conducive to a comfortable atmosphere for me (and many others) to sit and enjoy the coffee, gentlemen..... :rolleyes:
Please moderate your statements or I'll have to moderate the thread :(
Thanks,
Toddy
havingagiraffe
29-07-2006, 00:21
sit and enjoy the coffee, gentlemen..... :rolleyes:
May I suggest nettle tea instead - I don't think caffine's going to relax the situation... :rolleyes:
havingagiraffe
29-07-2006, 00:29
:lmao: :D
Cheers,
Toddy
Thanks, I thought you might :ban: for not taking things seriously. :)
bogflogger
29-07-2006, 00:56
Green Gunpowder Tea here actually. :p
Now if we can get back to Land Rover's, rather than Bigotry and Social Predujice, Land Rovers are Fine, for their Intended Use IE: Rural Workhorses.
Nobody with any sense has an issue with that, BUT far too many are used as a "Lifestyle Statement" :yuck: by the Semi-Urban HSF wannabees.
If the back of your Land Rover is not full of Sheep Poo, you do NOT need one! :D
havingagiraffe
29-07-2006, 12:15
If the back of your Land Rover is not full of Sheep Poo, you do NOT need one! :D
Friends of the Earth have asked me to stop hosing out my Landy as I destroy several rare eco systems every time I do so.... :rolleyes:
bambodoggy
30-07-2006, 17:07
This thread got me googling and I found this link you might like / hate!
http://www.stopurban4x4s.org.uk/reasons.htm
Flux
Brilliant! Thanks Fluxus, acording to that site, Reason No.1: I am, as a tree surgeon, allowed to drive my 4x4 ;)
I can sleep better at night now :p
It does wind me up when I'm trying to get through a 4x4 laced school run to get home and I know they don't need them...they can cause chaos and now that they are public ememy number one I get hit with all the higher taxes that are used to stop others using 4x4s when I really need one (even the nice site above says I need one :) ).
On the other hand we live in a free country and everybody has choice, until they manage to make it illegal to own one if you are included in "Reason No.1", I don't feel much will change except taxation on them will increase and in direct relation the commercial running costs will go up.
Bam. :)
It funny to watch in the wintertime...All the yuppy urban 4x4's here seem to take themselves out in crashes, since they don't know how to drive them properly! They get them for the "Bad" winters (which aren't that bad) and end up just driving further into the ditches, foot to the floor thinking they can just power through. Most of them don't make it far...<evil grin> :lmao:
~mike
Nathan Sturgess
23-08-2006, 17:40
What about Greenpeace using outboard powered RHIBs and assault rifles to stop diesel ships coming out of docks in some parts of the world and the fact that one plug in electric car in paris causes more pollution per mile than a 4.2 litre supercharged v8 Range Rover. They also don't seem to realise that this climate change is a kind of trend, after all Land Rovers and other 4x4s didn't end the last ice age
Spacemonkey
23-08-2006, 22:46
You know, I bet that the Devil drives an old Land Rover. Comes in handy for those odd days of the year when hell freezes over...http://www.mx5ocforum.co.uk/images/smiles/icon_twisted.gif
I have had my 4x4 for nearly two years now and i love it, I have never driven a car that i feel so safe in. I don't work out-side and i don't tow anything.
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g204/bellendbilly/Surf/th_a99a7173.jpg (http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g204/bellendbilly/Surf/a99a7173.jpg)
bambodoggy
24-08-2006, 12:33
I have had my 4x4 for nearly two years now and i love it, I have never driven a car that i feel so safe in. I don't work out-side and i don't tow anything.
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g204/bellendbilly/Surf/th_a99a7173.jpg (http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g204/bellendbilly/Surf/a99a7173.jpg)
As is your legal right to do so..... I think the people on here are thinking more about the moral issues.
That said, it's a personal choice thing and who are we to tell anyone what they can or can't do within the letter of the law ;)
Bam. :)
marshall4771
25-08-2006, 22:28
I have a s11 Landrover discovery, I enjoy driving it and will continue to do so for as long as I am able to do so.
My grandad fought people to give me that freedome of choice.
I regulary carry seven people, do you want me to take two saloon cars ?
Shaun