View Full Version : Where is it going
Where is BCUK going?
In my own opinion and many other peoples opinions BCUK has really taken a downwards turn.
Posts and entire threads are being removed by over zealous moderators to the point that personal opinions are now being removed. The entire membership, post with the fear that there post will be deleted and at worst they will be banned. It has even got to the stage where people are not able to expresses there own opinions any more. And, when people try to get good honest answers or express there disagreement with a decision made by the moderating team they are banned or the very least threatened.
There are a number of bushcraft forums now and it is noticeable that since I joined BCUK many of the experienced bushcrafters that used to frequent these pages and had a lot to offer have drifted away, thanks to the fact that they have become disillusioned with the whole affair, gently pushed or banned.
Tony I address this to you and I apologise that I am doing this in public but I think it only fear that you and the members paying or not have an open and honest discussion with how the forum should be run.
I, like many others are full members after paying a subscription. Many of use have voiced our concerns with how the forum is run but you have not had the decency to address any of these questions instead we continue to be palmed off by often aggressive replies from moderators and some of the moderator chose to use the PM facility to make there aggressive threats which I am sure there are many members that can verify that fact.
Tony you want people to give money and subscribe to BCUK to help you in the running costs, which people are willing to do but they are soon turned off if they do not perceive the service they expect and most people want a forum that is friendly, helpful and informative but as soon as you have people with big sticks beating members down (and that is how some of the moderators come across) things need to change, at the end of the day the only person that losses out is you because the members will stop logging on and stop subscribing.
It has been said that BCUK forum is only made up of new members and the moderating team. The few people that have been around for a while only do so as a place to chat and arrange private meets. What is left when those people decide to chat and arrange there meets else where?
Tony, BCUK is in your ball and it’s in your court, it’s punctured and it needs mending. What are you going to do about it? Close the forum and just concentrate on the mag? Sack the moderating team and install some others? Write new rules? Or try and get this sorted openly and honestly?
I expect this thread to be deleted very quickly and I expect I will be banned with in a very short time. Which is a great shame as I am only publicly expressing the views of many people on the forum. It would be great to see this thread run with lots of constructive input from yourself and the members in a grown up manor. And, possibly we can make BCUK a places were people want to be again.
Adi,
I personally think you have made some valid points and questions and would be shocked if the thread was deleted and even more shocked if you were to be banned for asking what you have.
As a full members we may not have shares in BCUK but if anyone expects subscriptions to be renewed it is important that the forum is targetted at the community and their concerns addressed.
Good luck getting the answers your after.
Andy
Ogri the trog
20-06-2006, 21:12
Adi,
I'm not sure how to take your post.
Admittedly there have been a few spats recently, but that is only to be expected as the membership grows.
As to the more experienced moving on, if those who wish to persue careers, or the more "hard-core" element of bushcraft, there's only so far you can go by posting threads over the internet - those such as Messrs Kochanski and Mears don't post here yet we aspire to their knowledge and lifestyles. There will always be those who want to move on and those who are happy to remain and learn more slowly and assist others in their learning. I'm proud to be a member here and find the "community" (as mentioned in other recent threads) to be as friendly and welcoming as ever it was. I'm afraid that it is the nature of the beast that only so much information can be gleaned from the world wide web, sooner or later you have to get off your nethers and put theory into practice - which is where the meets come in, to get tutors and pupils together to take their ideas further than they are able in isolation. I have learned a lot from these pages and even more from meeting with its members. If I can continue to learn from it and help others in their quest for bushy know how, I'll be happy for a good while yet.
I do not think that a radical revamp is needed and I'm troubled to read that you believe it is necesary, do you have anything in mind?
Ogri the trog
Ogri i dont think Adi was complaining about the skill level of the membership. I thin he was questioning the direction BCUK is going, I can understand some of his frustration as the mods although most of the time do a great job seem to be more agressive than in the past. Tony is a great bloke. He works tirelessly for the membership and has invested his families future in this site. Hopefully the concerns expressed by Adi and Andy can be addressed.
I would like to see an open and friendly discussion peerhaps in the FM forum as to what the disputes and concerns are.
Cheers Andy for your support.
Ogri, I am pleased that you are happy with the service you receive from BCUK your are well liked member of the forum that has a lot to offer, you are helpful, informative, you post some excellent posts and you are humble.
Many people have said your are a really nice guy and that you are an asset to BCUK and once again your above post demonstrate this perfectly. An excellent candidate for moderator I am sure.
Wayne is right i am concerned as are many people to were BCUK is going. I dont want to leave but the ways things are going i feel many people are going to leave which will really effect the forum, i dont want that so i am trying to sort this out. I am sure my other members can empathise with my original post so come on lets here people thoughts.
Adi fiddler
Which members do you think have been banned unfairly and which posts do you think have been removed without cause?
Please explain the above and I will do my best to explain the circumstances behind said events and the reasons for the actions taken.
Stuart
it is not so much what is done but how it is done, there are examples that i can give but this is not about individual actions but the whole forum in general.
At the moment there is a lot of bad feeling running through the forum and it needs to be sorted because at the end of the day there is very little reason for me to dip my hand in my pocket again and i if i have come to that conclusion then surly others have too
As any community grows it is inevitable that our individual voices become smaller against the growing volume.
Some people react to this with grace and some with rage.
Although I have not been a member as long as many others here the only people I have noticed being banned or censored seem to have been largely in the latter category.
Is it surprising that unpaid voluteers such as the moderating team should react badly to some of the abuse I have seen flung around on this forum?
I must admit to not seeing a lot of the 'old skool' members here lately, they are often to be found over on British Blades. The thing for me is that whilst I was in Iraq, I didn't get on the site as often as I would have liked, and wonder if I missed something during that time that changed peoples perception on this site.
I personally still enjoy it here, although there have been a few times when Moderator action :AR15firin seemed to be very rapid and maybe a little unnecessary. Maybe this is the price we pay for a site where family content is upheld very well, I enjoy being on a site where flaming and trolling is rare.
Unfortunately, events in the last few days have left me feeling that the friendliness of the site is waning slightly, the attitude to a new young member, I thought, was simply out of order and I felt sorry for him. I didn't think this was the way things were done here, and it really isn't a way to keep new BCUK recruits on the forums. I also thought the attitude to the Pants thread was just that...Pants!
I thought the thread was a bit wacky, absurd call it what you will, but the thread was well named and could be skipped if you thought it wasn't for you. Personal opinion is just that, I don't disagree with what was said by anyone regarding the site moving away from practising bushcraft and becoming more kit related, but we can all correct that by perhaps showing the work we are currently doing, or posting tutorials (remember the ones done by Patrick?). I will post pictures hopefully in the next week of my kuksa that I am making from a burl I collected this weekend. We can all do our bit to keep things on track, but I wouldn't like to see any more people leaving, as once a trend is set, we will really see the decline of this great site.
I'm hoping this is just a phase, and things will get good again soon. :beerchug:
Spam
And sorry Stuart but many people think you are part of the problem and not the solution, many of your modding posts have got peoples backs up, you just need to read through some of the posts that you have modded to see that people are not happy with the way you conduct yourself.
This is what I mean when I say the friendliness is waning. Shouldn't a personal thing like this be sorted by PM before posting on a public forum and naming names? I don't want to be seen to be taking sides or disagreeing with anyones' point of view and opinions, but this sort of thing can get so easily out of hand. Let's not forget that interpretation of the written word can be so different to what was actually meant!
Stuart
It is not so much what is done but how it is done, there are examples that i can give but this is not about individual actions but the whole forum in general.
Ok
Well if you cannot give examples of when someone was banned without good reason or a thread removed without cause, can you instead provide some instances when the method used was inappropriate and I will do my best to provide explanation?
Spamel I want an open and honest discussion re the forum and what is happening to it, I have highlighted some problems and hopefully Tony will be along to add his input.
I am not throwing mud and i do not wish to go behind the sense and slug it out with someone on PM and for the problem not go away.
This stuff needs to be addressed and once it is the forum will be a better place.
I am not out to upset any one and i am not a trouble maker, i see there is a problem and i feel it needs to be addressed.
At the end of the day i am a customer and i feel i am not getting the service that i deserve.
Stuart I say again i dont wish to degrade this discussion into individual actions and I dont fancy getting into a slagging match. I am talking about as a whole, stop being on the defencive, your not in the $%it, Ok i said you were part of the problem but i ain't blaming you for the downfall off BCUK.
That's a fair point, as I said I don't disagree with your points and your opinions. I've also noticed a change and all, but maybe there could be a way to sort these things out. I know that if someone in my line of work has a problem, he can include other people to get the end result he is after. Usually, an impartial person is put in charge of the case and the various view points are put across, and hopefully it gets resolved. This is done behind the scenes, and maybe this isn't the best way here, I don't know.
I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say here! :rolleyes:
MagiKelly
20-06-2006, 22:28
Adi you may well have a valid point but I have not noticed it on the forum. Perhaps I have not been looking closely enough. If you would give the examples of instances of what you mean people can judge for themselves.
Stuart has asked so that he can give explanations. You have told him he is part of the problem then said that you do not want to get into name calling. If you can't give an example of what you think is wrong it will not be fixed.
That's a fair point by Magikelly. I must admit I too haven't really noticed any particular problems, just the usual stuff that happens on any forum at any given time. So by saying that "there's a problem" but not really giving evidence that such a problem actually exists is tricky. However, I understand that you don't want to name names or cause a slanging match, so it's a catch 22 situation!
There are always times in all forums when the mods have to act, or people decide to show up less frequently before, or someone gets upset, or a loud new member arrives or whatever. So perhaps what you're feeling is purely caused by one of those statistical "bad patches" that will seem to clump together in any random collection of events.
Some suggestions anyway. I really don't feel that the forum is really much different to, say, a month ago. Which is a good thing!
Magikelly as i have said i for one am not going to let this become a slagging match between different people over different decisions.
I can not believe that you or anyone else have not seen the undertones of discontent in many of the threads.
I have seen it and i rarely take part in discussions.
Ok
Well if you cannot give examples of when someone was banned without good reason or a thread removed without cause, can you instead provide some instances when the method used was inappropriate and I will do my best to provide explanation?
Hi Stuart........I had a light hearted humour thread on ducks removed because of someone else's comments on it, which in my mind wern't that bad, but why not remove them, not the whole thread. Then there was all the issues with Spoonys thread in which Running Bare gets frustrated and gets banned, though I may not know the half of it, so I can't really comment on that. This is just a couple of issues that have caused me personally some bad feelings recently.
I love this site and I owe a lot to people on it, but the modding is really heavy on here, compared with other forums I go on, like Wildabout britain (where they had no problem with my duck thread).
I use an analogy I used on another thread.......If the referee keeps on blowing the whistle all the time, then the players and the fans get frustrated, a flowing game is the best to watch...........
I am not having any diggs at you mods, but I do think some things are dealt a bit harshly. I am sorry to bring up the ducks again, Toddy will be moaning..............Jon
Ogri the trog
20-06-2006, 22:38
Adi,
Thank you for the earlier sentiment though I'm sure it is not warranted.
I know that one of my failures is in not seeing the obvious until it whacks me in the face - as such I'm still not aware of the events leading you into your current way of thinking. Like others, I'd like to know of the overzealous actions that you are protesting about. The only one that I am aware of, is the listing of an enthusiastic youngster's posts about similar topics - could be viewed as heavy handed, but in mitigation, if that method of posting had become popular, the entire board would be a mess of threads all about the same topic with little notice taken of the content.
It is good to see that this discussion is taking place in the open and I hope it leads to a stronger forum as a result.
Ogri the trog
Adi you raise lots of protests but give no examples that can actually be discussed :confused:
Modding is very like an iceberg; all you see on the surface is about 10% of the actual thing, and it's deceptive. You have no idea of what has gone on in the background and frequently the actions that have been taken will never have been seen (thankfully!) by more than one or two readers. Personally I would really prefer *not* to have to moderate some of the total innanities that have cropped up recently, but hey, that's life :rolleyes:
I make no apologies for the family nature of the forum, or for our efforts to keep it that way.
BB is a very good site, busy and active but intended for a very different participation.
I don't know of any other bushcraft site with a similar scope or membership to this one in the UK, though I do know of several other sites that would love to generate a fraction of the hits that BCUK achieves.There are some truly excellent and interesting primitive technology sites, though.
Cheers,
Toddy
MagiKelly
20-06-2006, 22:46
Magikelly as i have said i for one am not going to let this become a slagging match between different people over different decisions.
I can not believe that you or anyone else have not seen the undertones of discontent in many of the threads.
I have seen it and i rarely take part in discussions.
I kind of see what you are saying but to be honest my opinion is that if you are going to open a can of worms open it the full way and get it all out and sorted. If I had seen people being banned unfairly or threads removed that I did not agree with I would be asking about them here, especially as we have a mod offering to explain the process.
Since I have not noticed I cannot. You have noticed so............................ ...................
To be honest I notice far more moderation over on BB than I do here. Perhaps that is due to the nature of the site or perhaps it is due to the threads I read :rolleyes:
Hi Stuart........I had a light hearted humour thread on ducks removed because of someone else's comments on it, which in my mind wern't that bad, but why not remove them, not the whole thread. Then there was all the issues with Spoonys thread in which Running Bare gets frustrated and gets banned, though I may not know the half of it, so I can't really comment on that. This is just a couple of issues that have caused me personally some bad feelings recently.
I love this site and I owe a lot to people on it, but the modding is really heavy on here, compared with other forums I go on, like Wildabout britain (where they had no problem with my duck thread).
I use an analogy I used on another thread.......If the referee keeps on blowing the whistle all the time, then the players and the fans get frustrated, a flowing game is the best to watch...........
I am not having any diggs at you mods, but I do think some things are dealt a bit harshly. I am sorry to bring up the ducks again, Toddy will be moaning..............Jon
Too d*mn right I'm moaning.
The *lighthearted* thread degenerated into smutty schoolboy humour that sniggers at bras and knickers on a washing line. A real pity since the photos were excellent.
You want open-ness....well here it is
I really do not believe that this entire thread is being raised, causing stress and discontent, because you were half cut that night and ranted at me in pm's. You were well out of line, the thread had become pathetically puerile and did not add anything to the forum. Had you been calm and peaceful then I would probably have taken an hour or two of my time and sorted through it, redd out the dodgy posts and tidied everything up.
By that time in the morning I had had it. I sent the whole sorry mess to the modding discussion area having told you quite clearly that in the morning it would
be reviewed and if it seemed valid it might be re-instated.
It was; & it wasn't. Get over it and move along.
Toddy
I apologise Adi, perhaps I am not making myself clear.
I am not asking you to degrade this discussion or enter a slagging match.
I am simply requesting that you explain the problems to which you refer rather than making vague references to over zealous moderators, fearful members, banned members and removed posts.
Give some examples of the above and I will do my best to explain the reasons behind any action taken.
You made reference to my actions being inappropriate, perhaps we could start there, then you need not make reference to anyone not already mentioned?
Your posts will not be removed and you have not broken any rules, provided that you continue to remain polite you will not be penalized.
There is nothing prohibited about requesting that the actions of a moderator be explained but in order to do so I need to know what the problem is.
Toddy.
I moderate on a number of sites and i am the admin on others so i am quite aware how it is done, what goes on behind the sense and how hard some decisions are.
I am also quite aware that this is a family site and that rules need to be kept. I also understand and agree to why some resent action were taken by yourself with the childish goings on, for instance some of the things in you famous Duck thread but you decided to pull that thread without explanation. An explanation was not given until for a number of weeks after it was constantly brought up in other threads only then was an explanation offered. This is a prime example of what i am talking about. That lack of clear and honest communication caused a lot of mistrust amongst my members.
jamesoconnor
20-06-2006, 23:00
personally, i'm happy with what i'm getting from this forum. ok, i joined less than a year ago but i can say that i'm still getting as much enjoyment from it than the day i came across this site. thats why i'm still browsing the site most day's. ive not noticed a downturn in the site, but that maybe because i only look at the threads that interest me and i get information and satisfaction from them. you only get what you want from all things, and what i want from this site i get ( i hope i said that correctly) so there is nothing i'd change on bcuk, apart from a few more tutorials which i thoroughly enjoy.
regards
by the way who brought up BB that has no relevance to BCUK.
I cant remember the last time i went to that site it complete rubbish.
You want open-ness....well here it is
I really do not believe that this entire thread is being raised, causing stress and discontent, because you were half cut that night and ranted at me in pm's. You were well out of line, the thread had become pathetically puerile and did not add anything to the forum. Had you been calm and peaceful then I would probably have taken an hour or two of my time and sorted through it, redd out the dodgy posts and tidied everything up.
By that time in the morning I had had it. I sent the whole sorry mess to the modding discussion area having told you quite clearly that in the morning it would
be reviewed and if it seemed valid it might be re-instated.
It was; & it wasn't. Get over it and move along.
Toddy
Here we go, Toddy is at it again giving it all with her opinion.
"Power happy" along with some of the other mods.
Maybe it is time for the Mods to step out of this discusion as they are so keen to degrade this thread.
Ok you have mentioned the Duck thread and Toddy has previously explained why she removed the thread after it had degenerated into juvenile posts about 'shagging' and Photoshop altered pictures of ducks enjoying post coital cigarettes etc
you contend that Toddy did not make it clear why she had removed the thread, that is a reasonable if minor issue and one explained by the fact that it was Toddys first actions undertaken as a new moderator and she was not yet fully experienced in the correct procedure, it takes time to learn the ropes in any job.
But this does not go any way to explaining your vague references to over zealous moderators, fearful members, banned members and removed posts
so I shall reiterate:
Give some examples of the above and I will do my best to explain the reasons behind any action taken.
You made reference to my actions being inappropriate, perhaps we could start there, then you need not make reference to anyone not already mentioned?
Your posts will not be removed and you have not broken any rules, provided that you continue to remain polite you will not be penalized.
There is nothing prohibited about requesting that the actions of a moderator be explained but in order to do so I need to know what the problem is.
MagiKelly
20-06-2006, 23:14
by the way who brought up BB that has no relevance to BCUK.
I cant remember the last time i went to that site it complete rubbish.
I think it was Spamel but lets not get side tracked :)
Tell us what exactly the problem is, then we can get to fixing it.
It is said the world is ruled by those who turn up. This forum is the same, hell all forums are the same, they are shaped by the contributions. The moderators may be able to edit out posts but it is us, the members, that post in the first place. If you do not like the way the post are going start threads on the subjects you want to see covered. I like to see us working together to get good prices and reductions on kit using the advantage of numbers we have. So I have run a few group buys. Some people want to meet others in person and so they arrange meet ups.
Make BCUK what you want by positive posts to shape how it goes, or at least if you have a compliant be clear and say exactly what it is so that it can be addressed.
If you do not know precisely what you think is wrong what chance do the rest of us have?
you were half cut that night and ranted at me in pm's. You were well out of line, the thread had become pathetically puerile and did not add anything to the forum. Had you been calm and peaceful then I would probably have taken an hour or two of my time and sorted through it,
Toddy
Toddy, I resent that comment, I have just been to look at the pm's I sent you and I was not ranting and certainly not out of line, and I was calm and peaceful, even though I had had a few sherberts that night, I just could not believe it was removed.
I have moved on from that, though the heavy moderating continues and I see others who are discontent and it sometimes affects me. I hate bringing this up as it is not good for others to see, but it needs to be said.............Jon
jamesoconnor
20-06-2006, 23:18
It is said the world is ruled by those who turn up. This forum is the same, hell all forums are the same, they are shaped by the contributions. The moderators may be able to edit out posts but it is us, the members, that post in the first place. If you do not like the way the post are going start threads on the subjects you want to see covered. I like to see us working together to get good prices and reductions on kit using the advantage of numbers we have. So I have run a few group buys. Some people want to meet others in person and so they arrange meet ups.
Make BCUK what you want by positive posts to shape how it goes, or at least if you have a compliant be clear and say exactly what it is so that it can be addressed.
If you do not know precisely what you think is wrong what chance do the rest of us have?
well said. i wish i said that! :D
regards
james
British Red
20-06-2006, 23:20
Adi,
I thought this thread started very well. I thought you voiced a balanced and reasoned concern. I agreed completely with Spamels first post (I still do).
I'm only a relative newcomer to this forum so I try to stay out of the politics as I know my place.
However you last "crack" at Toddy offends me - Toddy has been welcoming, friendly and very fair since I joined the forum - even sending me material to help me at her own expense. She has never been known to "give it all" in my experience.
If you genuinely believe you have the right to insult others directly and other forums directly and then ask for them to withdraw without defending themselves I think you are the one being unfair and not to say rude.
By all means criticise an event, but please leave out the insults and behave as the gentleman I know you to be
Red
MagiKelly
20-06-2006, 23:22
Here we go, Toddy is at it again giving it all with her opinion.
"Power happy" along with some of the other mods.
Maybe it is time for the Mods to step out of this discusion as they are so keen to degrade this thread.
Adi you really are doing your position no good at all. You want some undefined problems with the moderators solved but you do not want the moderators to explain their actions.
Getting right back to your first post. You said about members being banned and threads being removed. The implication being that this happened a lot. Please give one example of each. A banning and a thread removal so that we can use this as an example to see the process at work and do not say you do not want to start name calling. You have told Stuart he is part of the problem, said Toddy is "Power happy", so I think it is safe to say the ship has sailed on name calling.
Magikelly / Stuart there are lots of people on here that have over the last year have had to put up with unjust actions and aggressive pm's from moderators, if you are unaware of this you are lucky.
It is not my place to bring these to your attention because the people that received this treatment my feel they dont want it dragged up again. If they have experienced this treatment then it is down to them to express it here and to post the PM's they were sent here is the wish to.
Well done Jon this is just one case there have been lots of others but it down to the people that were involved to bring it up here if they wish to.
What i am saying is there is a problem people are quite frankly fed up with the treatment from some of the mods not all just some and the irony is those mods know who they are because they are trying to justify there actions.
A problem is, Tony is happy for others to do his bidding until he steps up and takes responsibility for his staff the problem is going to persist.
Where is BCUK going?
In my own opinion and many other peoples opinions BCUK has really taken a downwards turn.
Posts and entire threads are being removed by over zealous moderators to the point that personal opinions are now being removed. The entire membership, post with the fear that there post will be deleted and at worst they will be banned. It has even got to the stage where people are not able to expresses there own opinions any more. And, when people try to get good honest answers or express there disagreement with a decision made by the moderating team they are banned or the very least threatened.Adi, this forum is owned by Tony. It isnt now, nor has it ever been a pretence of democracy. Tony and the moderator team work hard to do what Tony wishes with the site. The direction and decisions made about this site, are his and his alone. He does take counsel, but from people of his choosing.
I'm not being agressive, or dismissive, just simply stating the facts. The decisons made here are not democratic one, they never have been and never will be. The decisions are made exclusively and absolutely by the owner.
Moderators dont consult the membership regarding disciplinary actions. We discuss matters with each other, in private. That is how it should be and how it will always be.
It's natural for people to want input and explanation, but it simply isnt possible. The issues surrounding disciplinary stuff are often very private and I doubt anyone wants all the dirty laundy aired in public. It would open debate up to factions, cliques, friends etc and no honest and fair resoultion would EVER be reached. It would be a destructive and damaging process, not just for the individuals concerned, but for many others as well.
Consulting the membership or even offering explanations is often simply out of the question. You have to decide whether youb can understand this and accept it or not. But you must realise it wont ever change.
There are a number of bushcraft forums now and it is noticeable that since I joined BCUK many of the experienced bushcrafters that used to frequent these pages and had a lot to offer have drifted away, thanks to the fact that they have become disillusioned with the whole affair, gently pushed or banned. Many of them are working to thier own agendas, commercial interests and power plays Adi. In some cases, their interests have conflicted with BcUKI's neutral position and have either been asked or told to cease and desist. In some cases, they have been unable to accept BcUK's commercial neutrality and have left, in other cases, they have been banned. It's sad, but BcUK isnt going to compromise it's values to accomodate 3rd part power plays and commercial interests. It's thier choice, they can either use BcUK under BcUK's terms and conditions, or leave. What they cant do is write thier own terms and conditions.
The abject lack of any significant success of any of these "other" forums, should tell you that the agendas under which some of them have been created, is plainly clear to many people. If the content of these other forums and websites, was as good, as honest and agenda free as BcUK's then these forums would be as successfull or moreso than BcUK. As it stands, many of them rely heavily on mining BcUK for members, rather than generating thier own on thier own merits.
Tony I address this to you and I apologise that I am doing this in public but I think it only fear that you and the members paying or not have an open and honest discussion with how the forum should be run. The members opinions are considered by Tony, but there will never be open consultation. This forum is owned outright by Tony. Members do not buy shares, they make voluntary contributions for a number of reasons, some because they are simply gratefull for the work and appreciate the costs involved and want to help out. Others contribute to gain higher level access to forum facilities. But in no case, can a member buy the right to have a say in how the forum is run. it's not promised or implied.
I, like many others are full members after paying a subscription. Many of use have voiced our concerns with how the forum is run but you have not had the decency to address any of these questions instead we continue to be palmed off by often aggressive replies from moderators and some of the moderator chose to use the PM facility to make there aggressive threats which I am sure there are many members that can verify that fact. Tony is not obligated to address any of your concerns. Your concerns are heard, but frankly you presume too much. By what right do you think you should have a say in the management of BcUK? Were you ever promised such input? Was it ever offered or even implied?
Tony you want people to give money and subscribe to BCUK to help you in the running costs, which people are willing to do but they are soon turned off if they do not perceive the service they expect
Service? You are not buying a service, this isnt a transport cafe. Contribute financially if you want, if you think what you get here is worth contributing, then do it. But if you dont think it's good value, then dont contribute. It's your choice. Remember though, you are NOT BUYING A SERVICE! You are not buying anything.
...and most people want a forum that is friendly, helpful and informative but as soon as you have people with big sticks beating members down (and that is how some of the moderators come across) things need to change, at the end of the day the only person that losses out is you because the members will stop logging on and stop subscribing. Then that's what will happen. The rules are there and if the members break them, they will be moderated and whining about it wont help anyone or anything.
I expect this thread to be deleted very quickly and I expect I will be banned with in a very short time. Which is a great shame as I am only publicly expressing the views of many people on the forum. It would be great to see this thread run with lots of constructive input from yourself and the members in a grown up manor. And, possibly we can make BCUK a places were people want to be again.
You have voiced your concerns and I doubt you will be banned for it, but you will be put straight. Yopu need to realise this forum is Tony's and Tony's alone. You dont buy right here, you contribute if you like what you get and many, many people do. If you are one of theose people who is unable to accept the authority of moderators, then you will alweays clash with them. But they are not going to make allowances for you sensitivity. The rules are there and they are going to continue to be enforced by moderators. You need to find a way to live with that.
Adi,
I thought this thread started very well. I thought you voiced a balanced and reasoned concern. I agreed completely with Spamels first post (I still do).
I'm only a relative newcomer to this forum so I try to stay out of the politics as I know my place.
However you last "crack" at Toddy offends me - Toddy has been welcoming, friendly and very fair since I joined the forum - even sending me material to help me at her own expense. She has never been known to "give it all" in my experience.
If you genuinely believe you have the right to insult others directly and other forums directly and then ask for them to withdraw without defending themselves I think you are the one being unfair and not to say rude.
By all means criticise an event, but please leave out the insults and behave as the gentleman I know you to be
Red
I am sorry I have offended you Red.
I just wonder how many of her posts and PMs have offended, she have offended me once which she cared to ignore and she has lost me once. which she solved with a compass apparently.
But we are not talking about one person we are talking about how the forum is run from the point of a few moderators.
MagiKelly
20-06-2006, 23:42
Magikelly / Stuart there are lots of people on here that have over the last year have had to put up with unjust actions and aggressive pm's from moderators,
Such as?
It is not my place to bring these to your attention because the people that received this treatment my feel they dont want it dragged up again. If they have experienced this treatment then it is down to them to express it here and to post the PM's they were sent here is the wish to.
But you did bring it to our attention. You started the thread. So finish what you have started tell us who you are talking about and what threads you are talking about. Stop squirming.
I do not want to seem aggressive or blunt but I believe the phrase is "put up or shut up".
my only thoughts are that there seems to be a lot of impaitence going on recently.
Some of which seems to be coming from the moderators, which I have to say that I wouldnt expect to be seeing.
Stuart, and i'm only using this example as its the freshest in my ming...you must have spent a long time constructing your reply to Leon-b yet it comes across as being extremelly condersending and very rude. It must be really difficult to try and ensure topics stay on track and arent repeated all over the place but I cannot see how some of the moderation that is going on is constructive to the ethos of this forum.
I remember when I first joined this forum and was very green to bushcraft or survival and had only doen normal camping before so I asked a question about what things people tend to sleep out under as all i had knowledge about were tents and didnt think these were the most suitable things in woods...I got a response from a mod stating that they would like to scream ARRRGHHHH at me for asking that question. It made me feel about 1" tall and that id done something wrong.
A poorly worded reply can leave a bitter taste towards that person and I think that seems to be occuring a lot recently.
My only other comment would be to toddy, why are you displaying an angry and aggresive attitude to the members that your suppose to be supporting. Up until recently I have always enjoyed reading your threads and listening to what you have to say. But your content seems to be of a different nature recently and a tad stern. Just my thoughts.
Maybe this is what some otehrs are trying to say. I dunno. I can only express my feelings.
thank you Andyn for providing an example from which we can progress:
Stuart, and i'm only using this example as its the freshest in my ming...you must have spent a long time constructing your reply to Leon-b yet it comes across as being extremelly condersending and very rude. It must be really difficult to try and ensure topics stay on track and arent repeated all over the place but I cannot see how some of the moderation that is going on is constructive to the ethos of this forum.
the 'unseen background' to this as it were, was that Leon-b was the second user account that this individual opened and was being used simultaneously to ask the same questions, we closed the first account and left the Leon-b account active.
having two accounts and stealing pictures from the BCUK gallery for a website are both in breach of the BCUK rules but due to the purported age of this individual extra patience was given in an attempt to resolve the issue via Pm and e-mail
When this failed I choose to make a clear public statement in the hope that it would raise a response
As you mention I did spend a great deal of time attempting to ensure that the public statement to Leon-b was clear and concise. the problem was growing, not only in shear volume of posts by leon-b asking the same questions but also complaints received with regards to copyright theft.
I did not make any specific attempt to be polite as I felt that my post was not directly offensive and my main focus was to be direct and leave no room for misunderstanding, though Leon-b purports to be 14, I felt this was of adequate age to address him as I would an adult.
I hope the above provides explaination for my public warning to Leon-b
the above incident however does not entirley explain Adi fiddlers expressed concerns about over zealous moderators, fearful members, banned members and removed posts.
prehapes Adi fiddler you could provide another example
Adi, this forum is owned by Tony. It isnt now, nor has it ever been a pretence of democracy. Tony and the moderator team work hard to do what Tony wishes with the site. The direction and decisions made about this site, are his and his alone. He does take counsel, but from people of his choosing.
Oh so in your words Tony and Bushcraft Media ltd does not care about the members and how they are treated
I'm not being agressive, or dismissive, just simply stating the facts. The decisons made here are not democratic one, they never have been and never will be. The decisions are made exclusively and absolutely by the owner.
So Tony as the owner is not providing a service, i suggest you look up the meaning of service
Moderators dont consult the membership regarding disciplinary actions. We discuss matters with each other, in private. That is how it should be and how it will always be.
When I use the word member I am talking about forum member and not subscriber, I made this very clear in earlier posts, there should be no difference between the two and i am pleased you agree
It's natural for people to want input and explanation, but it simply isnt possible.
Why not? I mod on a forum which is vastly larger than this one with far fewer mods and over a 100+ people on line at a time and every decision concerning a member is communicated to them, it is considered common decency and good practice.
The issues surrounding disciplinary stuff are often very private and I doubt anyone wants all the dirty laundy aired in public. It would open debate up to factions, cliques, friends etc and no honest and fair resoultion would EVER be reached. It would be a destructive and damaging process, not just for the individuals concerned, but for many others as well.
Consulting the membership or even offering explanations is often simply out of the question. You have to decide whether youb can understand this and accept it or not. But you must realise it wont ever change.
Well it must change for BCUK to move on. Tony wants to go into the commercial world with Bushcraft Media ltd, this is the public face of that company so your little speal here and the current way things are done is not very productive for the commercial world.
[/quote]There are a number of bushcraft forums now and it is noticeable that since I joined BCUK many of the experienced bushcrafters that used to frequent these pages and had a lot to offer have drifted away, thanks to the fact that they have become disillusioned with the whole affair, gently pushed or banned. [/quote] Many of them are working to thier own agendas, commercial interests and power plays Adi. In some cases, their interests have conflicted with BcUKI's neutral position and have either been asked or told to cease and desist. In some cases, they have been unable to accept BcUK's commercial neutrality and have left, in other cases, they have been banned. It's sad, but BcUK isnt going to compromise it's values to accomodate 3rd part power plays and commercial interests. It's thier choice, they can either use BcUK under BcUK's terms and conditions, or leave. What they cant do is write thier own terms and conditions.
The abject lack of any significant success of any of these "other" forums,
should tell you that the agendas under which some of them have been created, is plainly clear to many people. If the content of these other forums and websites, was as good, as honest and agenda free as BcUK's then these forums would be as successfull or moreso than BcUK. As it stands, many of them rely heavily on mining BcUK for members, rather than generating thier own on thier own merits. an interesting statement is this the view of the owner and Bushcraft Media ltd or your own opinion.
[/quote]Tony I address this to you and I apologise that I am doing this in public but I think it only fear that you and the members paying or not have an open and honest discussion with how the forum should be run. [/quote]The members opinions are considered by Tony, but there will never be open consultation. This forum is owned outright by Tony. Members do not buy shares, they make voluntary contributions for a number of reasons, some because they are simply gratefull for the work and appreciate the costs involved and want to help out. Others contribute to gain higher level access to forum facilities. But in no case, can a member buy the right to have a say in how the forum is run. it's not promised or implied. No but considering BCUK offers a service whether that be free or not there are certain obligation that should be met. And, most importantly you or anyone else spouting rules and regs on Tony behalf or not in public has one outcome and that only hurts Tony, BCUK and Bushcraft Media ltd , so it is in his best interest to but some sort of input into a discussion.
Quote:
I, like many others are full members after paying a subscription. Many of use have voiced our concerns with how the forum is run but you have not had the decency to address any of these questions instead we continue to be palmed off by often aggressive replies from moderators and some of the moderator chose to use the PM facility to make there aggressive threats which I am sure there are many members that can verify that fact.
Tony is not obligated to address any of your concerns. Your concerns are heard, but frankly you presume too much. By what right do you think you should have a say in the management of BcUK? Were you ever promised such input? Was it ever offered or even implied? Tony has two options the first is keep his head in the sand the second is to lift it out and make this a place that people feel comfortable with. If Tony is to arrogant to see that there could be a problem well that’s Tonys, BCUK and Bushcraft Media ltd problem
Quote:
Tony you want people to give money and subscribe to BCUK to help you in the running costs, which people are willing to do but they are soon turned off if they do not perceive the service they expect
Service? You are not buying a service, this isnt a transport cafe. Contribute financially if you want, if you think what you get here is worth contributing, then do it. But if you dont think it's good value, then dont contribute. It's your choice. Remember though, you are NOT BUYING A SERVICE! You are not buying anything.
I have highlighted your comment as you are speaking on behalf of Tony, BCUK and Bushcraft Media ltd and it proves you are talking out of turn and without consent of Tony as he would never alow that be said about his busness. Service does not imply that something is bought it is meeting a need, if Tony is arrogant enough to think that every thing is hunky dory and there is no need for improvement that is his, BCUK and Bushcraft Media ltd problem.
Quote:
...and most people want a forum that is friendly, helpful and informative but as soon as you have people with big sticks beating members down (and that is how some of the moderators come across) things need to change, at the end of the day the only person that losses out is you because the members will stop logging on and stop subscribing.
Then that's what will happen. The rules are there and if the members break them, they will be moderated and whining about it wont help anyone or anything. So someone bring up a genuine concern is whining? Yes you are right it wont help anyone mostly Tony and Bushcraft Media ltd
Quote:
I expect this thread to be deleted very quickly and I expect I will be banned with in a very short time. Which is a great shame as I am only publicly expressing the views of many people on the forum. It would be great to see this thread run with lots of constructive input from yourself and the members in a grown up manor. And, possibly we can make BCUK a places were people want to be again.
You have voiced your concerns and I doubt you will be banned for it, but you will be put straight. Put straight! So my concernse wont be addressed and they will be pushed under the carpet.
Yopu need to realise this forum is Tony's and Tony's alone. You dont buy right here, you contribute if you like what you get and many, many people do. If you are one of theose people who is unable to accept the authority of moderators, then you will alweays clash with them. But they are not going to make allowances for you sensitivity. The rules are there and they are going to continue to be enforced by moderators. You need to find a way to live with that.
Tony this is has really not done your cause any good promoting BCUK and Bushcraft Media ltd in this manor and in public. that's is not very advantageous.
Is that goglebot
that’s a nice dissection of martyn’s post.
I expect that your previous comment:
by the way who brought up BB that has no relevance to BCUK.
I cant remember the last time i went to that site it complete rubbish.
was written with the sole intent of winding up BB's owner (martyn) an provoking a response.
However I see no explanation so far to indicate circumstances which led you to make your original post.
All you have done is deliberately provoke people to get an angry response, is that perhaps the intent of this thread..... to provoke anger?
I wont be provoked Adi fiddler, is that why you are refraining from answering my simple question.
I shall state it again, please provide instances previous to this post in which you feel moderators have acted inappropriately so that I might explain the circumstances
Ok i have just but my foot in it because i was not aware Martin was the owner but so be it the damage is done.
but Stuart you can think what you like i dont really care.
I have been a member for a while and have had the pleasure of sharing a number of fire side chats with most of the older generation moderator team. I would even be so bold as to count a couple as friends.
I am trying to be very polite and non confrontation but Martyns post is dishonest. BCUK is no longer commerically neutral. Tony is quite rightly trying to earn a living working on his BCUK projects. This is not the first time a member of the moderator team has stated this untruth, Stuart you once stated quite strongly that BCUK was a non profit making organisation when you moderatorated Brian Curels post about his attempts at starting a non competitive primitive technology forum.
Admitted your removed your post when challenged.
Toddy was overly heavily handed locking Pumbas thread about BCUK and land access. OK he didnt express himself as well as he may have but the thread didnt break any rules I am aware of.
Chris Claycombe has been responsible for more locked threads than any other moderator. Chris intervention on the merits of steel was not necessary.
Adi you have made some important points but attacking BB is not helping to produce the debate your after mate. I understand your frustration and displeasure but you need to maintain professionalism if your message is to be understood. Your first posts were good but the last few are not helping to promote the open friendly constructive improvements in the site your looking to acheive.
Ok i have just but my foot in it because i was not aware Martin was the owner but so be it the damage is done.
but Stuart you can think what you like i dont really care.
Adi, with respect, I think you are trying to get banned. I think you want to wear it like a badge. You have raised some important points which Stuart is trying to deal with in a fair manner. But you are wasting the opportunity here. You seem intent on behaivng in an immature and provocative manner. If you want a sensible and intelligent debate, then you can have one, but you need to treat the people you are talking to, with the same respect that you would have them treat you. If you just want to throw stones, start arguments and insult people, then you will waste this opportunity and probably will get banned. It's really up to you.
I am trying to be very polite and non confrontation but Martyns post is dishonest. BCUK is no longer commerically neutral. Tony is quite rightly trying to earn a living working on his BCUK projects.
Wayne, Tony's interest in this site is not really the point, it's his site. The commercially neutral point was with reference to others (who dont own it) trying to make money off it or further thier own ambitions off the back of it.
I have been a member for a while and have had the pleasure of sharing a number of fire side chats with most of the older generation moderator team. I would even be so bold as to count a couple as friends.
I am trying to be very polite and non confrontation but Martyns post is dishonest. BCUK is no longer commerically neutral. Tony is quite rightly trying to earn a living working on his BCUK projects. This is not the first time a member of the moderator team has stated this untruth, Stuart you once stated quite strongly that BCUK was a non profit making organisation when you moderatorated Brian Curels post about his attempts at starting a non competitive primitive technology forum.
Admitted your removed your post when challenged.
Toddy was overly heavily handed locking Pumbas thread about BCUK and land access. OK he didnt express himself as well as he may have but the thread didnt break any rules I am aware of.
Chris Claycombe has been responsible for more locked threads than any other moderator. Chris intervention on the merits of steel was not necessary.
to date BushcraftUK the website and Bushcraft media ltd the company set up to handle the publication of the magazine has made ZERO profit
The BushcraftUK website is NON-PROFIT the donations made by members doesn’t make a dent in the thousands of pounds in dedicated sever costs incurred by the bandwidth of the website, even if you don’t take into account that a third of the donation given by full members goes to paying for the badges we give them as a thank you.
the hope is that the magazine and advertising will fund the costs of the site and possibly provide a meagre income to Tony who runs this website full time.
why the magazine AND advertising, well you don’t honestly think that a £14.00 yearly subscription actually covers the printers fee for printing this do you?
even the BUSHMOOT is entirely Non-profit, after paying the estates fees, flying Mors to the UK and providing for him whilst he is here and buying in a pig and a lamb for the Monday night hangi every penny of the entrance fee is gone
Tony has given up work to provide the time required to keep this site running and hopes that it will provide an income before he entirely bankrupts himself and his family
Tony will no doubt provide you with the total running costs of BCUK if you ask but I assure you it is in the thousands and BCUK isn’t even close to paying any wage to Tony for his time let alone making a profit
I have a great respect for Tony and offer no critique of him or his attempts to earn a living we both know how much of his own money he has ploughed into BCUK for our benefit.
Your post though is misleading. BCUK is Not as has not been for quite some time commerically neutral. Please accept i am trying to be neutral and keep this thread on track so to speak. Your right that BCUK is not a democracy. Adi is stating some of the disquiet I have been aware of for sometime. The final choices to act or not are yours. You pay the bills. However as with all forums people give of their time and knowledge freely for the good of the forum as a whole. Without the membership the form is an empty shell.
British Red
21-06-2006, 01:22
Stuart,
Please understand that I don't want to get involved in any of the heat that this thread has generated, but I would like to offer some personal insight if I may?
I think perhaps the crux of this issue is twofold.
1) That moderators discuss forum discipline in private to spare contributors blushes
2) That this specific incident resulted in a public rebuke.
However, you need to understand what forum contributors perceived from the combination of:
the 'unseen background' to this as it were, .
And
I did not make any specific attempt to be polite.
The perception that can be occasioned by the combination of unmentioned previous communication attempts in a strongly worded public rebuke can be that the public rebuke is a harsh first communication rather than a final reluctant step in a chain.
I believe that it would have been impossible for some of the members to put the rebuke within the thread in question in context as they weren't privy to earlier attempts to rectify the situation privately. Their reactions were perhaps understandable as those who seek to protect the young and inexperienced. They may have viewed, as I did, any mistakes made on the youngsters part as "cockup not conspiracy" and moved to defend him in a laudable, if arguably uninformed, way.
It is not my intention to criticise, but, had perhaps that particular posting begun with something on the lines of
Leon, I have tried to contact you privately about this but without success...in your own interests as wel as those of other forum users, I feel it necessary to inform you that.....
then perhaps people might have reacted differently.
I understand that your job is a difficult one, striking a balance as you must between keeping the forum on the straight and narrow and not stifling debate. However I feel on this occasion, some members reactions were not driven by petty rudeness or one upmanship by but a commendable desire to look after new and young members. Since these people could not know that previous communications had been unsuccesful, they did not make any allowance for this. If their responses were extreme, I feel their motivations were sincere.
Please don't take this as any criticism, I have merely tried to understand what has caused many kind and pleasant people to come to such a state of antagonism. I believe, quite genuinely, that the motivations of all concerned were wholesome and that by both sides of the debate understanding why the others reacted as they did, we can put the matter behind us
Respectfully
Red
I understand that your job is a difficult one, striking a balance as you must between keeping the forum on the straight and narrow and not stifling debate. However I feel on this occasion, some members reactions were not driven by petty rudeness or one upmanship by but a commendable desire to look after new and young members. Since these people could not know that previous communications had been unsuccesful, they did not make any allowance for this. If their responses were extreme, I feel their motivations were sincere.
I think most of the moderators realised this Red and you are quite right. But you hit the nail on the head. An awful lot of what we discuss behind doors simply cant be repeated, it just wouldnt be appropriate to air all of the dirty washing and offer it up for public debate. So we have no alternative but to be authoritarian. Some of the moderation calls simply have to be "because I say so" ...we cant give the forum explanations and open it up for 100's of people to comment. There must be some faith in due process by the moderators. It's not democratic and it cant ever be. We know that people want to understand, and it's a dilemma. There is really no way to sugar the pill, people ask for explanations and we have to insist they go without.
There is also a question of personaliuties. We all have one, they differ and we differ in the way we handle things. We are not professionals, we dont get paid and we all have bad hair days. Sometimes we use language that doesnt consider all the parameters. It happens. We also get pillaried, accused of all sorts, generally abused ...it goes with the teritory.
The bottom line is, sometimes we have to make hard decisions. Sometimes unpopular decisions. Sometimes authoritarian decisions. That's just the way it is.
...Tony has two options the first is keep his head in the sand the second is to lift it out and make this a place that people feel comfortable with. If Tony is to arrogant to see that there could be a problem well that’s Tonys, BCUK and Bushcraft Media ltd problem
Adi your purpose of this thread was to start an argument, not open a debate. You have an agenda, that is clear. I think probably most people can guess where it's comming from. Your purpose is to try and hurt people, hurt Tony, the site and the mods and it's gone on long enough.
You are banned for 7 days Adi.
I'm sure you will feel it's very unfair.
Thread closed.