A tough decision!

[Polestar]

Well my ticket finally came through, and I'm now in the market for a rim-fire (.22lr). I've managed to track down a Sako Finnfire but am not sure if it's worth spending 150% :eek: of the price of a CZ (the 'style' in synthetic and nickel looks the business) when it's essentially for bunny-bashing. Any advice from those who have either?
Thanks.
David

[Lurch]

I've a CZ. For the cash it is a superb piece of kit. However I am thinking of changing it for a Sako. Reasons are that the plastic stock of the CZ is a little too plasticy and that the trigger is not up to the standard of a Sako trigger - even after the trigger kit.
As you say though there is a price penalty, you pays your money and you takes your choice!

[Ogri the trog]

I picked up a second hand Brno model 2 IIRC. Complete with moderator and scope for |40 quid. A bit of work on the stock and its turned into what the Americans call a "tack driver" If I do my part to make the shot, it'll do its part to place it where I've aimed. You won't go far wrong with a CZ (Brno and CZ have a certain amount of crossover I believe).

More info from www.rimfirecentral.com

Good luck

Ogri the trog

[British Red]

David,

I wouldn't dismiss a Ruger 10/22 either. We have two one of which is kitted out with a carbon fibre (threaded) barrel and Dragunov kevlar stock - weighs next to nothing and groups under 0.5" @100yards. The quick backup shot offered by a semi can be reassuring although I hope never to need it.

Try www.rimfiremagic.co.uk

Red

[Lurch]

I've a 10/22 as well. They seem to be a love 'em or hate 'em thing.
I'm edging towards hate 'em. Extraction/feed can be fussy especially if using subsonic rounds.

[British Red]

Lurch,

I agree to some extent, theat they can be fussy, although they do cycle reliably on the right subs. For a dedicated bunny gun, a bolt does have some advantage in both cycling and safety I must agree! That said I have had nothing but good reports on the CZ / BRNO "farmers gun"!

Red

[Polestar]

I've a 10/22 as well. They seem to be a love 'em or hate 'em thing.
I'm edging towards hate 'em. Extraction/feed can be fussy especially if using subsonic rounds.

Had a semi-auto years ago and never really got on with it. Also need to consider that my son (11) is usually out with me, so safety (both perceived and real) are paramount ... hence a bolt action this time round. David

[davef]

go for the CZ, I shoot a 17HMR and 22 Bolt and for the price they're pretty unbeatable.

[ArkAngel]

I've got a .17 HMR CZ BRNO and it shoots as well as i can. As long as i don't mess it up the bullet goes where i want it. I have a spare slot for a .22 and that will also be a CZ.
I have friends with Ansultz rifles that cost the earth and they have admitted that on accuracy alone there is not much to compare. IMHO it is down to the asthectics only, that said how upset would you be to whack the stock when you are out in the field? While i take every precaution with my CZ i wouldn't consider it the end of the world if i chipped the stock!

[steven andrews]

I've got a Sako Finnfire Varmint in .22lr. Lovely gun, but BRNO/CZs are great too.

I don't think you could go wrong with either.

[Toots]

Brno (CZ) is indeed a very good rifle but lacks the quality of finish of a Sako. I currently have a tricked up 10/22, but if a bolt action was called for then a CZ 452 american would probably be the one. As far as value for money goes I reckon it is hard to beat. Don't forget to match whatever you buy up to as good a scope as you can afford. The rabbits will thank you for an accurate shot time after time!!! Never had any feeding or extraction trouble with the Ruger, but then I am a bit obsessional about cleaning it. Safe shooting Polestar.

[Longstrider]

I have an old (very old) Sako Finn Scout that I bought about 12 years ago second hand from a professional gamekeeper I knew. Having been used by him over a number of years for virtually all of his (extensive) pest control shooting it had seen a great deal of use when I bought it. I know that I have personally put the best part of 40,000 rounds through it myself over the years, and it still shoots better than any of my friends rifles. Groups are in the range of 0.5 / 0.6" at 100 yds with Winchester 40gr subsonics (excellent rabbit ammo) and I've never had a problem with rifle at all. If build quality, finish, reliabilty and accuracy are as good on the more recently made Sakos as on my old thing, I would not hesitate to recommend a Sako to anyone.

I do also own a stainless 10/22. I have fitted it with Volquartsen trigger parts and extractor and stuck it into a Hogue overmoulded stock. It's now a very comfortable rifle to use and I have no feed problems with it at all as long as it's kept relatively well cleaned. Again, I use the Winchester subsonics in it for bunnies. The 10/22 isn't the "tack-driver" that my Sako is, but it's still more accurate than I am.

I have never owned a CZ / BRNO but judging by those that I know friends have, they are good solid reliable rifles that warrant the money you will pay for them.

Lets face it, just about any modern production rifle is going to be more accurate than the guy holding it. What matters is that you are happy with the rifle, that you are comfortable with your set-up and have practiced enough to ensure clean one-shot kills on anything that you are ever going to point the thing at. For rabbits, that means being able to put the bullet in the head EVERY time. The shots that you take whilst out rabbiting are nothing like those you are likely to take on a rifle range. Shots will taken from odd positions, free-standing, rested agains trees and fenceposts etc etc, so these are the sort of shots that you need to practiced at, not just comfortably rested or prone shots.

Keep safe and enjoy yourself !

[Polestar]

DECISION MADE .... I'm now the proud owner of a Sako Finnfire Varminter (heavy barrel), and beautiful it is. I tried the CZ's, but there is no comparison in the engineering, and particularly in the trigger action. It's a bit of a heavy beast especially with the sound-mod and scope, but I also picked up a Versi-Pod bipod, and the combination is great. Having sighted it in, I was out yesterday and shot 8 rabbits (the last 5 with 5 shots) .... still getting used to aiming off to allow for distance/strong wind.
Thanks for all of the advice guys.
David

[Abbe Osram]

I have a CZ / BRNO with a Bushschnell scope and love it. Its true that the trigger is very strong. But one can get it fixed or one can fix it with a special trigger kit yourself. I havent done it as I am a hunting greenhorn and like not to have a very soft trigger yet.

cheers
Abbe

[Lurch]

Polestar is right, the Sako product is in a different league to CZ - reflected in the price of course!
You can have the trigger 'done' on a CZ but you still will not have a trigger up to the standard of the Sako, it may however be fit for purpose and again reflects the cost of the unit.

Pays your money.....

[Klenchblaize]

Have had an early (50’s) Brno rimfire since 1982. Happened to be in the shop when the farmer brought it in to trade. Paid £35 which was £5 more than he got for it! Even after shortening the barrel to 18” and fitting a moderator it still puts 10 shots into less than .5” at 50m when using CCI sub-sonics that I have first measured and sorted by rim thickness.

The fact that I couldn’t really ask for more in a bunny getter hasn’t though stopped me from finally ordering a replacement from Cooper Arms of America. Such has all the whistles & bells and goes by the name of the “Jackson Squirrel Rif-e”.

Only 4 more months to wait for what is admittedly an unnecessary extravagance but, as with knives, sometimes you just can’t help yourself in the mater of a the latest love affair!

Cheers!


http://i32.photohttp://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d46/klenchblaize/cooper1.jpgbucket.com/albums/d46/klenchblaize/cooper1.jpg

[Klenchblaize]

Have had an early (50’s) Brno rimfire since 1982. Happened to be in the shop when the farmer brought it in to trade. Paid £35 which was £5 more than he got for it! Even after shortening the barrel to 18” and fitting a moderator it still puts 10 shots into less than .5” at 50m when using CCI sub-sonics that I have first measured and sorted by rim thickness.

The fact that I couldn’t really ask for more in a bunny getter hasn’t though stopped me from finally ordering a replacement from Cooper Arms of America. Such has all the whistles & bells and goes by the name of the “Jackson Squirrel Rif-e”.

Only 4 more months to wait for what is admittedly an unnecessary extravagance but, as with knives, sometimes you just can’t help yourself in the mater of the latest love affair!

Cheers!

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d46/klenchblaize/cooper1.jpg

[Abbe Osram]

Have had an early (50’s) Brno rimfire since 1982. Happened to be in the shop when the farmer brought it in to trade. Paid £35 which was £5 more than he got for it! Even after shortening the barrel to 18” and fitting a moderator it still puts 10 shots into less than .5” at 50m when using CCI sub-sonics that I have first measured and sorted by rim thickness.

The fact that I couldn’t really ask for more in a bunny getter hasn’t though stopped me from finally ordering a replacement from Cooper Arms of America. Such has all the whistles & bells and goes by the name of the “Jackson Squirrel Rif-e”.

Only 4 more months to wait for what is admittedly an unnecessary extravagance but, as with knives, sometimes you just can’t help yourself in the mater of the latest love affair!

Cheers!

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d46/klenchblaize/cooper1.jpg


Why did you shorten the barrel? Is it not taking away from the aim precission?
cheers
Abbe

[Longstrider]

Polestar, I'm glad you are having fun with your new (quality) toy ! The Sako's really are excellent, and as you say, the trigger pull is lovely and crisp. A gunsmith friend of mine describes any really good trigger like that as a "Glass trigger", that is to say that it breaks crisply and evenly just like you were snapping a fine thin piece of glass with every shot you fire.

Abbe, the fact that Klenchblaize shortened the barrel of his Brno should not effect accuracy significantly. I have read more than one report on the matter and have seen that if done properly, barrels can be shortened to as little as 14", even 12" sometimes, with no marked decrease in accuracy. Doing this to any firearm will effect the muzzle velocity of the projectile though. Unlike an air rifle where the pellet is suddenly accelerated up the first inch or so of barrel only to then actually start decelerating, a firearm accelerates the bullet all the way up the barrel. The propellant powder burns as the bullet travels the length of the barrel, accelerating it until it reaches the muzzle. With a shorter barrel the bullet is accelerated less and therefore leaves the gun slower but not neccessarily less consistently. Consistency is the only real factor when it comes to accuracy as long as the barrel is in good condition.

[pothunter]

Hi Polestar
You have made a good decision, now though consider leaving the weapon in its ‘natural’ state, no tele sight, moderator or bipod and using fieldcraft and to get within range of your chosen quarry, I think you will find this very satisfying and it sits well with bushcraft.
Although I use all additional means available for vermin control, when doing a ‘job’ as opposed to hunting.
Longstrider is correct in that shortening the barrel has little effect on accuracy re .22 rf. However he is misinformed re. powder burn, a given volume of nitro powder when ignited expands to a given volume of gas. The ideal is that you convert this given volume of gas to calculate barrel length as the barrel is no more than a cylinder this is quite simple.
This would ensure that the propellant has burnt completely, that there is no muzzle blast to destabilise the projectile as it leaves the barrel.
The projectile will have reached max. velocity in about 9” (225mm.)
Black powder on the other hand burns progressively and often benefits from a longer barrel but I don’t think you need consider this.

[Ogri the trog]

I have a CZ / BRNO with a Bushschnell scope and love it. Its true that the trigger is very strong. But one can get it fixed or one can fix it with a special trigger kit yourself. I havent done it as I am a hunting greenhorn and like not to have a very soft trigger yet.

cheers
Abbe

Hi Abbe,
Go for the trigger mod, you won't be sorry.

As to shortening the barrels of rimfire r*fles, from what I know, the powder of most ammunition is burnt up within 16 inches of the breech, therfore it has become popular to shorten a barrel to this length. So long as the barrel is re-crowned correctly, there should be no accuracy issues.
Another factor of accuracy, is the harmonic frequency of the barrel from the percussion of the discharge. The barrel rings like a bell after the shot and if the bullet exits the muzzle as the muzzle swings to one side, the shot will go wide. Shortening the barrel raises the frequency and hence lessens the effect.

ATB

Ogri the trog

[Abbe Osram]

Thanks mate,
now I got it!
Makes sense.

Cheers
Abbe

[Klenchblaize]

Why did you shorten the barrel? Is it not taking away from the aim precission?
cheers
Abbe


Here in the UK most rimfires are used for vermin control and by no means discharged miles from civilisation. We therefore fit silencers/moderators. Such makes for much better relations with landowners and residents who would otherwise take less than kindly to the crack of a .22 at 4 in the morning! It is also very helpful for follow-up shots when getting amongst a colony of rabbits!

If you add 6 or 8 inches of moderator to the length of a factory Brno barrel it is, at least in my opinion, a little unwieldy for use in the Field. The same would not however apply if you were using it in moving target competition where weight forward is desirable and helps with the follow through required in this demanding sport.

Sorting rimfire ammo by rim thickness is well worth the trouble for those who have never tried it:


http://www.deerstalker.com/22_accuracy.htm

[Abbe Osram]

Here in the UK most rimfires are used for vermin control and by no means discharged miles from civilisation. We therefore fit silencers/moderators. Such makes for much better relations with landowners and residents who would otherwise take less than kindly to the crack of a .22 at 4 in the morning! It is also very helpful for follow-up shots when getting amongst a colony of rabbits!

If you add 6 or 8 inches of moderator to the length of a factory Brno barrel it is, at least in my opinion, a little unwieldy for use in the Field. The same would not however apply if you were using it in moving target competition where weight forward is desirable and helps with the follow through required in this demanding sport.

Sorting rimfire ammo by rim thickness is well worth the trouble for those who have never tried it:


http://www.deerstalker.com/22_accuracy.htm


Whow, thats funny to hear. It looks like a lot of things are forbidden in the uk, like making a fire and sleeping where ever you want, but you are allowed a silencer!
We are not allowed to use silencers, especially not on a .22 because you really dont hear much. Some people are allowed to get a special permit for group 1 weapons, where we hunt moose with. This are people who have problems with there ears. But the rest of us are forbidden to use silencers. Maybe too many people would shoot reindeers and steel them without anyone hearing a sound.
Would be cool to hunt with a silencer so. :D


cheers
Abbe

[Polestar]

Hi Polestar
You have made a good decision, now though consider leaving the weapon in its ‘natural’ state, no tele sight, moderator or bipod and using fieldcraft and to get within range of your chosen quarry, I think you will find this very satisfying and it sits well with bushcraft.
Although I use all additional means available for vermin control, when doing a ‘job’ as opposed to hunting.


Pothunter.
I've given a lot of thought to your comment, and have come to the conclusion that when I'm 'hunting', my priorities are different tomost of my 'bushcraft' forays. I don't mean that I'm not tuned in to my surroundings, or use a lot of fieldcraft skills etc. simply that I have a different focus (excuse the pun). I always get within range of the prey, but it is with a view to ensuring that as far as possible, I am able to k**l it cleanly with one shot, by hitting exactly where I am aiming. In order to ensure this I will use whatever 'aids' are available. I don't in any way disagree with the sentiments of your comment, but wouldn't ever want to 'practice' my bushcraft at the expense of some other creature.
David

[rapidboy]

I had my 10/22 shortened and it improved the acuracy quite a bit, probably due to the recrowning.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/rapidboy1/guns/363_6338_1a.jpg

You have to keep the silencer on it or you could shoot yourself in the hand :lmao: , this is just on the legal limit.

Had to radius the back of the bolt and smooth everything to get it to cycle with subs but once it was set up it was very reliable.
Free floated the barrel, modified it to auto bolt release and fitted a home made bolt buffer.
It handles really well, nice slick action and really quiet.
I did fit a full Volquarsten trigger kit but i took it out and tuned the standard unit and i liked it better.
Just a matter of stoning and polishing all teh contact area's, adding a few shims to tighten it up and an over travel screw makes it pretty sweet.

It's getting traded in for a short action CZ Varmint soon as i fancy a change and another project.

I was going to buy a Sako or an Anschutz but they shoot great right out ofthe box and i like a project :rolleyes:

All american guns now have rubbish triggers and now the CZ is being pushed onto the American market the trigger will not be sorted from the factory but like the Ruger the CZ trigger can be sorted to be very good for field use.

rb

[pierre girard]

I've never owned a sako .22, but I used to have a Sako Finnbear in 7 MM Magnum, and it was an exceptional piece.

I had an Anschutz. Very good - very precision shooter. My personal favorite, however, is a very old Remington bolt repeater with an ancient squirrel scope. I had one when I was a kid and have just, in the last five years, found this beauty at a police auction (where I was able to pick it up very reasonable).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/pjjgirard/Tools%20and%20Camping%20Gear/DSC02675.jpg

[Polestar]

Looks like a great ri+*e Pierre, and I love the scope. Also love the idea of the Police selling off g*@ns ... over here they send all siezed/handed-in 'items' to the foundry where they are melted down. I've seen some absolutely beautiful weap**s (including some with historical significance) which ended up this way. :(

[pierre girard]

Looks like a great ri+*e Pierre, and I love the scope. Also love the idea of the Police selling off g*@ns ... over here they send all siezed/handed-in 'items' to the foundry where they are melted down. I've seen some absolutely beautiful weap**s (including some with historical significance) which ended up this way. :(

In the last few years, police auctions here have been precluded from selling g--s here as well. We can only sell them to people with a federal license. If we are updating our service weapons (p----ls, r---es. sh----ns), we trade in the old ones, including any we've confiscated - for very lttle - and receive new ones. The dealer is not usually too interested in the old ones and allows us, personally, to buy them back for the price he's quoted us, plus a $25 paperwork fee - one fee per person, which allows you to buy as many as you want for the $25 fee (plus the quoted price per g-n).

A funny story: My brother was looking at a book of rare museum quality 17th century flintlocks. He saw a photo of one he knew he'd seen in the evidence room. The price quote in the book was near $100, 000 USD for the flintlock. He was unable to locate the flintlock in the evidence locker.

My brother asked the lieutenant, only to find the lieutenant had cut it up with a cutting torch. My brother brought the book, with the page turned to the photo of the flintlock, and left it on the offending lieutenant's desk. The lieutenant took the rest of the day off. My brother's fellow deputies said the lieutenant looked like he was choking as he left the office, and they said they'd never seen anyone's face quite that shade of purple.