View Full Version : Denatured Acohol=Meths?
Danceswithhelicopters
30-05-2006, 22:09
A quick question-is denatured alcohol the same as methylated spirits?
I have a ti Vargo stove and can't get much of a flame with meths.
MagiKelly
30-05-2006, 23:01
A quick question-is denatured alcohol the same as methylated spirits?
I have a ti Vargo stove and can't get much of a flame with meths.
Yes. Denatured Alcohol is also known as Industrial Metholated Spirits only difference is the lack of the dye.
A quick question-is denatured alcohol the same as methylated spirits?
I have a ti Vargo stove and can't get much of a flame with meths.
Yes it is the same. Which stove do you have? The triad or the triad XE?
redcollective
30-05-2006, 23:31
IIRC: Denatured alcohol (base componant is Ethanol) has a bit of methanol in it - so don't get any ideas about drinking it. Read that: Poison.
Bitrex (supposedly the most bitter thing known to man, though I reckon my mum could give it a run for it's money lol) is also added to make it unpaletable.
Pure Ethanol, on the other hand, is a merry old brew.
Remember the bit about Bitrex for the next time you are in the pub. It's in the Guiness Book of Records, apparently, (Bitrex that is, not my mum). :D
anthonyyy
31-05-2006, 09:51
IIRC: Pure Ethanol, on the other hand, is a merry old brew.
(Bitrex that is, not my mum). :D
"Pure Ethanol" or absolute alcohol, which is distilled in a special way to remove all the water, usually contains traces of Benzene - which is highly toxic. I wouldn’t drink any alcohol that is not expressly intended for human consumption. And I speak as a dedicated drunkard.
redcollective - better mine could give yours a run for her monwey when she's in one of those moods. Must be a yorkshire thing (says him front the Co Durham side of the boarder :D )
beamdune
31-05-2006, 13:07
A quick question-is denatured alcohol the same as methylated spirits?
I have a ti Vargo stove and can't get much of a flame with meths.
Some info on the Vargo Triad (not the XE) here:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/vargo_triad_titanium_stove.htm l
redcollective
31-05-2006, 13:20
sorry anthonny I didn't make that quite clear did I a meant unadulterated Ethanol, as in 'pure' in the strictest (and drinkable) sense.
anthonyyy
31-05-2006, 17:11
sorry anthonny I didn't make that quite clear did I a meant unadulterated Ethanol, as in 'pure' in the strictest (and drinkable) sense.
I'll drink to that.
bogflogger
31-05-2006, 17:24
It's worth noting that all the Vargo stoves NEED to have a wraparound Alloy foil windscreen, with air intake vents at the bottom.
They simply do not draw enough air without one and burn cool, so that the fuel does not combust properly.
bogflogger
31-05-2006, 18:04
From the Vargo website:
http://vargooutdoors.com/index_files/Page339.htm
:D
It's worth noting that all the Vargo stoves NEED to have a wraparound Alloy foil windscreen, with air intake vents at the bottom.
They simply do not draw enough air without one and burn cool, so that the fuel does not combust properly.
BF, dont suppose you have a crusader cooker unit do you? If you do, can you say if the triad will fit into the crusaders fuel well? If it does, how does the crusaders windshield make the triad perform?
Danceswithhelicopters
31-05-2006, 18:14
Thanks chaps-it looks like the screen thing could be the solution.
I had the thing set up in the kitchen and it was plain crap. The flame would not transfer over to the edge holes and I couldn't see what was wrong.
bogflogger
31-05-2006, 18:26
Sorry Martyn, I don't have a Crusader base, but I can give you the dimensions of the Triad:
Overall Diameter: 65mm (including one leg boss).
Diameter: 60mm
Height: 25mm
Weight: 1oz (30g) :eek:
I have the one piece Triad, there is also the Triad XE which has a separate meths burner and Esbit burner/base unit.
The small meths burner from that, would fit into the Crusader base no problem.
Sorry Martyn, I don't have a Crusader base, but I can give you the dimensions of the Triad:
Overall Diameter: 65mm (including one leg boss).
Diameter: 60mm
Height: 25mm
Weight: 1oz (30g) :eek:
I have the one piece Triad, there is also the Triad XE which has a separate meths burner and Esbit burner/base unit.
The small meths burner from that, would fit into the Crusader base no problem.
Interesting. i think the internal diameter of the crusader fuel well is ...60mm.
It might just be a perfect press fit without the legs. Does the triad pop out of the lag holder thing? I believe it's just a press fit?
bogflogger
31-05-2006, 18:33
DWH- It's worth reading the Backpackinglight review posted above by Beamdune.
There is definately a knack to getting the best performance and that review covers it in depth.
bogflogger
31-05-2006, 18:46
Martyn, the Triad XE has a small 1 1/2" (?) diameter meths burner, that just sits in the base unit instead of an Esbit tab.
I have just had a good look at my Triad, and I am sure that a Talented Chap with 10 fingers and a Dremel could remove the legs in a couple of mins. :D
Martyn, the Triad XE has a small 1 1/2" (?) diameter meths burner, that just sits in the base unit instead of an Esbit tab.
I have just had a good look at my Triad, and I am sure that a Talented Chap with 10 fingers and a Dremel could remove the legs in a couple of mins. :D
Easier than that mate, a pair of pliers and a quick twist and they pop right off.
I got a triad like yours BF (not the XE) this morning from an ebay seller. A quick check and sure enough the burner looked an almost perfect fit if the legs are removed. So I removed em. I thought about grinding em off, but they looked to be just held on by a few spots of solder, so i though waht the hell and out with the pliers. They pop right off with a little twist. :)
Next bit of luck, the triad burner could've been made for the crusader cooker. It simply drops right in the fuel well with about 0.5mm clearance all round - pretty much perfect.
The downside. I am singularly unimpressed with the performance of the triad. It is a weak performing stove, fuel inefficient because it took gallons of meths to prime. It's also a cool burning stove, with the flame jets not nearly as powerful as the trangia - with a full load of fuel, it barely even got the crusader half-mugfull of water to "brew warm" before the fuel expired. This is on a sunny day with little to no wind. Simply filling the fuel well of the crusader unit with meths and lighting it, made for a hotter, faster stove (I tried it).
However, I noticed a leak in the seam of the triad, it was loosing fuel and probably pressure as well. Not much, but if the triad is a highly tuned stove, it could be enough to take it from functioning normally, to pretty poorly. I dunno (a web search revealed that seam leaks are common on this model and vargo have had quite a few returns). I'm waiting for the stove to dry and then I'll seal the leak with JB Weld - then test the stove again - I'm not holding my breath though.
bogflogger
04-06-2006, 04:42
That's Strange.
I used mine today in exactly the same conditions as you, without any windshield and got 1L of water (in a Trangia 1L Duossal pan + lid) to a rolling boil in 7 1/2 mins and a 22 min burn time.
Some thoughts on this:
1. Is the seam that is leaking, on the top by the burner holes (new model~ this is what I have) or underneath (old model)?
Sealing this with JB weld should do the trick.
2. It is possible that the Crusader base is acting as a heat sink, preventing the Ti stove from getting to operating temperature.
3. A possible solution, might be to partially fill the cup in the Crusader base with Meths and balance the stove unit halfway over this.
lighting up like this should prime both the Crusader base and the Triad burner.
When it's about to burn out, flip the Triad into place.
4. It might be worth making up an Alloy foil, full wraparound windscreen, with 1/2" clearance round the mug.
This needs vents in the bottom to allow a proper chimney effect airflow.
Here's a link to the Vargo design:
http://vargooutdoors.com/index_files/Page339.htm
I am sure you can modify it to suit the Crusader base.
Full test report please! :p
Further to this BF, I sealed the leak with JB Weld (underneath, it's the old model) and that improved things ..a bit. I get a slightly better flame, but not much. The burner doesnt leak, so it's performing as it should.
I agree, it's possible that the crusader unit is sinking the stove and so is detracting a little from performance, though the flame doesnt look any different when the burner is placed on it's own. I'm not convinced that is the problem.
Boil times ....the triad never managed to get a crusader mug of 250mls to a bouncing boil ...ever. It did manage a sort of brew-hot boil after 12 minutes...small bubbles etc, but never to a rolling boil.
Just filling the fuel well of the crusader unit with meths and lighting it, then using 250mls of water in the mug, I achieved a bouncing boil in a little over 6 minutes. That has to be the benchmark for any mods to this unit.
So far, although the triad seems to be doing what it should, it's slower and cooler than using meths alone - by a big margin.
Part of the problem is that I think it has too many holes (28). The design is like a pressure stove, but the big fill hole and lots of burner holes mean the cooker never really gets pressurised. Also, I think that titanium is a poor choice of material. Titanium is a lousy conductor of heat.
Some facts about titanium, it's not as strong as steel and it's not as light as aluminium and is a much worse conductor of heat than either. However, it's almost as strong as steel and almost as light as aluminium. This means that for some applications, where both strength and light weight is a big issue, it's a good choice. Pots for ultralight hiking for example. Even then, aluminium is lighter and conducts heat better, though aluminium pots are usually heavier because they are not as strong, so they have to be thicker. But anyone who has used a Ti pot, will I'm sure agree, they are harder to heat up than just about anything else.
Using Ti for a stove is a bit of a wierd choice. You dont really need super strength and it's poor heat properties make it less desireable than other metals. It impacts on efficiency and usually means it needs more fuel to prime. So why use Ti in a cooker? Frankly, I dunno. Brass or steel or aluminium are better choices IMO.
Anyhoo, I'm gonna block up 4 of the 28 holes to see if this improves the output of the stove by building up the internal pressure. It's got a long way to go before it can match the heat output, ease of use, zero prime requirements and no fuss of just simply pouring meths into the fuel well of the crusader cooker unit.
BF, how many burner holes doea the newer model have?
gregorach
06-06-2006, 19:16
Using Ti for a stove is a bit of a wierd choice. You dont really need super strength and it's poor heat properties make it less desireable than other metals. It impacts on efficiency and usually means it needs more fuel to prime. So why use Ti in a cooker? Frankly, I dunno. Brass or steel or aluminium are better choices IMO.
Pure marketing. Many people automatically equate "titanium" with "very good", which is why it is (was?) a very fashionable term to attach to bits of computer hardware and mobile phones with no titanium involved at all.
Have you had a look at my red bull stove (http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=13005) for the crusader? Boil time is about the same as you're getting for just filling the well with fuel, bit I reckon it needs less fuel to get there. It's my first attempt, and could probably be improved with a little tuning.
bogflogger
06-06-2006, 21:45
Same number as yours Martyn: 28 holes.
I agree that the Triad is not as efficent as a Brass Trangia burner, but it is less than half the weight and bulk of one.
The Triad is also a lot more robust than any home made "Pepsi can" stove, which is the reason I got one.
Don't know if you fancy doing it, but perhaps some airholes around the crusader base, plus a foil windscreen would improve matters?
Pure marketing. Many people automatically equate "titanium" with "very good", which is why it is (was?) a very fashionable term to attach to bits of computer hardware and mobile phones with no titanium involved at all.
Have you had a look at my red bull stove (http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=13005) for the crusader? Boil time is about the same as you're getting for just filling the well with fuel, bit I reckon it needs less fuel to get there. It's my first attempt, and could probably be improved with a little tuning.
Yes mate, saw it and it looks superb. The materials are well suited for the job and it looks like you've got the pressure/output corrolation well sorted.
I'm gonna carry on modding the triad as it's a neat design, but I'm not holding my breath.
Same number as yours Martyn: 28 holes.
I agree that the Triad is not as efficent as a Brass Trangia burner, but it is less than half the weight and bulk of one.
The Triad is also a lot more robust than any home made "Pepsi can" stove, which is the reason I got one.
Don't know if you fancy doing it, but perhaps some airholes around the crusader base, plus a foil windscreen would improve matters?
I agree about the robustness compared to a pepsi can stove, they are fragile and by their nature, disposable. It's also a lot lighter than a trangia, true. But neither are issues with regard to the crusader unit. The thing with modding the fuel well, if I make it too specialised for the triad, I may loose functionality for use with other fuel sources. I'm reluctant to do that.
For the benefit of those interested here are some pics...
The unmodded triad...
http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/Cook%20Gear/Stoves/Vargo%20Triad%20Titanium%20Sto ve/Jim%20Sabiston/Initial%20Report/image001.jpg
The triad with legs pulled off, drops almost perfectly into the fuel well of the crusader cooker unit...
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i273/Martyn_s30v/triad01.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i273/Martyn_s30v/triad02.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i273/Martyn_s30v/triad03.jpg
Looks like it could've been made for the job, except performance is abismal.
Spikey DaPikey
07-06-2006, 02:09
This is just a guess, but would putting a penny over the fill hole help with the pressure :dunno: :confused:
bogflogger
07-06-2006, 06:05
Perhaps it's time to find a small nut and screw?
( a' la MMP :D )
This is just a guess, but would putting a penny over the fill hole help with the pressure :dunno: :confused:
Tried it, didnt make much difference, but I dont think I got a very good seal with it.
Perhaps it's time to find a small nut and screw?
( a' la MMP :D )
Yeah, it's on the todo list. I'm goona drill out the hole to 3.5mm then tap it to 4mm and pop in a small screw.
Shambling Shaman
08-06-2006, 07:06
A quick question-is denatured alcohol the same as methylated spirits?
I have a ti Vargo stove and can't get much of a flame with meths.
So It it the same? is there a recomended brand?. My TX should be hear next week looking forward to testing it. would greenheat work in it? (gel)
Now i make two types of stove they work good its a small shoe polish can with fiberglass house insulation cut hole in lid put window screen in lid put lid on ready to go on a 1/2 oz. alcohol burn time 11 min. 16 oz. of water boil time 7-1/2 min. this shoe can is small only 2 in. round as you can see it fits them esbit burner also in a altoids can which i make some pot stands that fit on the out side turn them out for big pots in for little plus the legs and stove all fit in can. now if you get a big shoe polish can or the altoids it will fit the crusader my two cents
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/th_altoids2.jpg (http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/altoids2.jpg)