The perfect Bushcraft knife! [Archive] - BushcraftUK: Community Forum

capacious

30-05-2006, 17:25

Personally...

Either a High-Carbon core sandwiched between softer steel (18/8 steel, for example), or 01 tool steel.

59rc.

4.5 - 5.5 inch blade, 3-4mm thick.

5inch-ish handle.

Full tang.

Flat, single bevel grind (scandi grind?)

I prefer a drop point blade, but many prefer spear point.

Seeing as we're all bushcrafters here, a wooden handle would probably be preferred by most, as we tend to like natural materials. The problem is, there are so many woods to choose from. I prefer a darker wood, such as Walnut or Rosewood. But Curly burch is also very popular. (so perhaps a choice of different handle materials would be the best option here.... perhaps even leather.)

The sheath should be strong waxed leather, with the option of a firesteel holder (which I hate, but many love).

The one thing you should keep in mind is that no two people agree on what would be the perfect knife. Plenty would say that Ray Mears has already acheived this, but I tend to disagree. There should, at the very least, be an option between handle materials and blade length (i.e. 4in and 5in blade, with either a Birch or Mahogany handle.)

And remember that these need to 'user' knives - so the highest build quality is essential (but with Sydercos reputation, I don't think it is really necessary to say that). And multi-function is the key - the same knife has to be able to fillet a fish, bone a haunch of venison, skin a rabbit, split kindling and make a feather stick all in the same day.

Jake.

tarmix101

30-05-2006, 17:41

Hello

I was a member here some years ago but did more lurking/reading than posting. Some of you might recognise me from the British Blades Forum and other knife forums including Spyderco. Which brings me to the point, Sal Glesser, the owner of Spyderco is considering making a Bushcraft knife.

Martyn at British Blades suggested that I ask the question here.......What would be your perfect Bushcraft knife.

Steel........
Blade length.......
Handle length.......
Grind.......
Blade geometry.....Spear point.......Drop point......
Handle material......
Sheath......

I would appreciate any comments.

Cheers, Ken

Wow Ken. Thats a question, wrapped in a riddle, laced with an enigma :yikes: . The only reason I say that is, I'm sure there isn't "one" perfect bushcraft knife. However you asked for personal opinions so here is mine.

I like carbon steel. I don't have a problem with taking a little extra care of my blade against rust. I feel the benefits are far greater. For me O1 is a good steel for this. Price vs performance (depending on the heat treat of course) is a good one.

I don't care for blades over 4". I know many folks in the States would disagree, but it's what works for me. I also carry a axe and a small folder to aid in my duties @ camp and on the trail.

The handle on my main utility blade is right @ 4 1/2". Again, depends on how big/small a persons hands are.

I like micarta for it's strength. I like the look of a natural material much better, but I'm more after function.

I like the scandi grind for utility (I do add a secondary edge bevel of about 20 degrees however) and a thin flat grind for skinning/cook chores.

Spear point for my utility blade.

Noting beats bees wax treated leather for a sheath IMHO. Kydex is to stiff for me. I always end up with the butt end the the handle in my kidney when I sit down :banghead:

This is a good question, asked quite a bit. In the end you must make your own decision on what works best for you. Personal preferences, what you are going to use the knife on, and environment all come into play here. For me the hunt for what worked for me was almost as fun as using the perfect knife for me.

I generally carry a Wetterlings SHA. My Allen Blade Bushcrafter. And last but not least my Vic Farmer. I would feel a little "naked" without all three :o

EdS

30-05-2006, 17:41

just to add to the above- cheap enought to loose and not feel gutted.

philaw

30-05-2006, 18:00

If they're going to make a best-possible knife, people won't agree on exactly what they want, but it'll come out looking something like a woodlore knife. I an't imagine there's ay real room for them to imrpove the standard, like there was with folding knives before the UK penknife they made.

If anything, I'd sugggest a knife with a blade profile like the woodlore, but thinner, and a stick tang. It's just about the only thing that could improve on a mora. They could put a kind of pommel on it like the bison bushcraft knife and that would add some hammering ability. All they'd need to then is keep the price down, and I might even buy one! :)

Millbilly

30-05-2006, 19:28

As has been suggested on BB, why not take over the production of the woodlore, where WS left off? :confused:

Shinken

30-05-2006, 19:39

Well for me a bushcraft knife has to be strong, and good for carving and i like spear point or deep drop point for skinning but it dosnt need it as long as you are carefull. I like zero grind or scandi as most people call it because i feel it bites into the wood better when carving. not too thick 3-4mm blade not too long 3.5'' ish

I dont think it makes a lot of diff what steel it is as long as its good steel.

Just my opinion of course

Has to be WELL made!

:D

British Red

30-05-2006, 19:46

Hello

I was a member here some years ago but did more lurking/reading than posting. Some of you might recognise me from the British Blades Forum and other knife forums including Spyderco. Which brings me to the point, Sal Glesser, the owner of Spyderco is considering making a Bushcraft knife.

Martyn at British Blades suggested that I ask the question here.......What would be your perfect Bushcraft knife.

Steel........
Blade length.......
Handle length.......
Grind.......
Blade geometry.....Spear point.......Drop point......
Handle material......
Sheath......

I would appreciate any comments.

Cheers, Ken

Ken,

Steel........
01 tool steel is fine - I don't pretend to be a metalurgist, the important point is that the knife must be field maintainable - this is more a question of grind and hardness. Therefore if one of the modern "super steels" can have the right hardness and better rust protection, fantastic. What I would never buy is anything with a laminated steel or a soft spine (rubbish for fire steels, batoning etc.)

Blade length.......
4" cutting edge with 3/4" ricasso (to aid finger curl or thumb grip dependant on orientation) , more gets awkward for many tasks

Handle length.......
4 1/2" seems to suit me. I like a contoured handle with no guard.

Grind.......
Scandy or full flat grind. I like the convex grind but its too difficult to restore if medium to severe edge damage occurs

Blade geometry.........
I would like to see a fine taper drop point (much more so than the Woodlore) - far better for boring holes and fine work. The spine should be square. 4 transverse file line to the spine above the ricasso to provide a top thumb grip or index finger on an underhand grip (also helps on fire steel sparking). I would like a narrower and slightly thinner blade than is often seen which are too cumbersome I find. 3mm by 1 1/4" width

Handle material......
Whilst I prefer wood, it is dodgy for game prep (porous and absorbs fluids). For a commercial knife, I'd go for stabalised wood, micarta or synthetic. Must have a lanyard tube of couse. I think one of the most sensible options would be to offer a variety of scales at price points. Economically a pain but people do like to be a bit different - the micarta option adds a fair whack to an F1 but people like it.

Sheath......
Leather, friction fit (must be positive), should have the "double dangler" or "scandy swivel" type double loop so that it can be worn high on the hip and not foul undergrowth etc. or low to hang below a bergan hip belt. It should be cut to be ambidextorous. I like a firesteel loop. Many don't. I would suggest a removable one (someone here designed one). One of the best things the F1 has going for it is a choice of sheaths - I'd suggest an ambidextorous scandi swivel, with a firesteel loop option and also a neck carry option.
I carry a DC4 stone on a front pouch on my sheath, but I doubt that would be a commercial option.

Heres a pic of the sheath Tiffers made for me since I couldn't find one that ticked all the boxes for me if that helps explain what I'm on about

http://www.britishblades.com/photopost/data/508/medium/DSCF0252.JPG

Many more piccs and blather available but don't want to thread hog!

Hope That Helps

Red

tarmix101

30-05-2006, 20:21

http://www.britishblades.com/photopost/data/508/medium/DSCF0252.JPG

Many more piccs and blather available but don't want to thread hog!

Hope That Helps

Red

Sorry to get O.T., but that sheath is brilliant :cool:

British Red

30-05-2006, 20:38

I claim all the credit (oh other than the entire manufacturing and finishing and paulting and stitching which was Tiffers...oh yeah she actually improved the design too :))

Red

Shing

30-05-2006, 20:48

I like the Woodlore style knife but with a full height flat grind for better slicing and fine cutting. Its a good design and works well.

O1 is a good steel, tested for decades and still holds up, I would temper it what some would consider slightly too soft at Rc56-57 but it would be tougher than Rc58-59 and easier to keep sharp in the field with a small stone.

A micarta handle is very practical and virtually indestructable but I like wood and a well figured cocobolo handle looks and feels lovely in the hand.

A knife needs a sheath, stout leather waterproofed with beeswax and Neats Foot Oil is very durable and flexible enough to hold the knife firmly but let you draw it easily.

fred gordon

30-05-2006, 20:53

Not being a bushcraft knife expert I am reluctant to get into this debate. However, I feel I have one question. How much would a knife like the ones being described above cost? I ask this partly because it's likely I could never afford one and partly because there is a lot of talk about things costing a lot and where to get it cheapest. I take it this might not apply in this case!

Hoodoo

30-05-2006, 21:03

George Herter ran an old-timey sporting goods store out of Mitchell S.D. It was quite an operation in its day (similar to Cabelas) but for whatever reason declined in the late 70s.

I don't think the word modest could be used to describe George. He was also quite a salesman and could hawk a product like nobody’s business. One of the books George wrote was called "Professional Guide's Manual," written for the North Star Guide Association (which probably did not even exist). There are a lot of wonderful outdoor tips in the book (or books-lots of versions out there) about hunting and fishing, along with a lot of his self-promotion and sales pitches. I learned how to clean a squirrel from this book and I cured some stomach problems I once had using a tip from this book.

One section, How to Buy an Outdoor Knife I thought might be interesting for this discussion on bushcraft knives. :) Perhaps some thoughts outside the woodlore box. ;)

How to Buy an Outdoor Knife by George Leonard Herter

An outdoor knife must be made for service--not show. Your life may depend on it. Real outdoor people realize that so-called sportsmen or outdoor knives have long been made for sale, not for use. The movies and television show their characters wearing fancy sheath knives. Knife makers advertised them and drugstore outdoorsmen bought them. Nothing marks a man to be a tenderfoot more than these showy useless knives.

Here are some of the duties a true woodsman knife must perform:

1. The knife must stay sharp for long periods of time without shapening. The steel should combine the best characteristics of electric furnace quality high carbon 1095 steel and high carbon 440 B stainless steel. The blade hardness, known among steel experts as 56 Rockwell C, should not be affected by atmospheric moisture, salt spray, fruit acids or blood. It should withstand extreme temperatures without becoming brittle, no matter how cold it may be. A good steel knife blade will "blue" or darken itself with use, making it pratically rustproof. If knife blade steel is really good, it will cut through nails without bending over the edge.

2. The knife must be shaped so it is ideal for cleaning and skinning game of all kinds, from rabbits to moose. The best shape for this is the improved Bowie.

3. The knife must have a handle long enough so that it fits a man's hand so pressure can be put on the blade when desired. On nearly all outdoor knives the handles are much too short. The handle of the knife must be made to last a lifetime. Leather handles rot and mildew, stag handles crack, plastic handles crack and are highly inflammable. African mineral-type woods are best, and they will stand all kinds of weather for a lifetime and more.

4. The blade of the knife must not be hollow ground. Hollow grinding weakens a blade so that the edge will bend or break under heavy usage. A wedge edge is the strongest and most durable ever designed.

5. The blade of the knife must be hand forged in order to give the steel maximum strength and hardness.

6. The blade of the knife must not have a blood groove. A blood groove is strictly advertising and badly weakens the blade. Professional butchers do not use them.

7. The knife must be easy to carry and light in weight. The blade length must be 4 inches long. Four inches is the length established for a woodsman knife by over 200 years of experience. Blades shorter are all right for Boy Scouts, but not for serious woodsmen, Longer than 4 inches is unnecessary and adds weight.

8. The knife should have no hilt as it only adds weight. If the knife blade is properly designed, that is slightly indented, you cannot cut your finger no matter how hard you thrust. You need only thrust in a hand to hand combat with a man or a wounded animal.

9. The knife must be capable of slicing bacon and cutting bread. It must be a comfortable knife for eating and cutting cooked meat.

I dislike seeming prejudiced but the George L. Herter knife made by Herter's is and has been the choice of real outdoor people.

*******************
The top knife is Herter’s Improved Bowie, the bottom knife is the George L. Herter knife, which should look familiar to a lot of folks here. :D

http://www4.gvsu.edu/triert/images15/herters1c.jpg

British Red

30-05-2006, 21:10

So a Grohmann then :)

Martyn

30-05-2006, 21:19

2. The knife must be shaped so it is ideal for cleaning and skinning game of all kinds, from rabbits to moose. The best shape for this is the improved Bowie.

I think there is the difference between the American outdoorsman and the British bushcrafter.

Ogri the trog

30-05-2006, 21:22

Oh Wow is this ever going to be complicated subject.
I suppose it might start with - What aspect of Bushcraft would we like the knife to cover? Steel, grind, geometry etc will depend on its use;
Wood cutting for fires, fine carving, food prep - all have their good and not-so-good points.
I really like the shape and feel of the Woodlore or at least copies thereof, and I suppose that I'd be at the end of a long queue to see Spyderco's take on the Woody would look like.

ANyway for your records, heres my preferences:-
Steel...O1, or other carbon steel
Blade length... 3 to 4 inches seems sufficient.
Handle length.... 4 1/2 to 5 inches
Grind... Scandi
Blade geometry.....Spear point yep
Handle material.... Wood preferably but Spydie resins are good too
Sheath.... Leather neck sheath.

ATB

Ogri the trog

Hoodoo

30-05-2006, 21:28

So a Grohmann then :)

I don't believe Grohmann ever made that knife for Herter.

The last company to make either of those knives for Herter was R. Murphy. In fact, I don't think Grohmann even knew Herter was offering a Russell belt knife, which is the general name for that style, named after D.H. Russell, who originally designed the knife, with input from others, including Grohmann. Herter claimed he designed the knife. He may or many not have had an input. Who knows? Here is what Grohmann has on their website:

"Within a year, Grohmann and his family arrived in Nova Scotia at the invitation of the provincial government-funded Pictou Cutlery, which closed after three years. Mr. Grohmann, determined to make knives, built a garage workshop & began producing & engraving folding knives designed by himself. Shortly after, Mr. Grohmann met with Mr. Deane H. Russell and together they set out to design a truly Canadian knife. After field testing with the help of hunters & trappers across the north, the D.H. Russell Belt Knife #1 was born, which along with various other designs, won many awards and recognitions worldwide. Grohmann and Russell created three more models together, the #2, #3, & #4."

The part about being tested by hunters and trappers suggests that lots of folks may have contributed to the final design.

Hoodoo

30-05-2006, 21:32

I think there is the difference between the American outdoorsman and the British bushcrafter.

Well, the so-called improved bowie looks nothing like the American Bowie design. It also looks very little like what Americans typically carry into the woods today. Knife designs like this harken back to the early 20th century and before. Additionally, I think Grohmann would argue that it's a Canadian design. :)

British Red

30-05-2006, 21:37

You are a mine of information Hoodoo - either way though, Its a long way from my perfect knife (I have a grohmann large skinner though which is a great knife for its job and in fact where I decided I like horizontal file work - it really helps with the thumb grip)

Red

Andy

30-05-2006, 22:08

The top knife is Herter’s Improved Bowie, the bottom knife is the George L. Herter knife, which should look familiar to a lot of folks here. :D

http://www4.gvsu.edu/triert/images15/herters1c.jpg
The top one looks like a standard butchers boning knife to me
http://www.sworddepot.com/product_images/vn-40010.gif

tarmix101

30-05-2006, 22:13

What would be your perfect Bushcraft knife.
Cheers, Ken

Just a quick after thought. I know a picture is worth it's weight in gold for me. Here is a pic of my standard "out in the woods" kit. The fixed blade in the middle (minus the kydex sheath, it has been replaced) is what I prefer to use for utility. The second pic is my main skinner @ the moment.

Allen Blade Bushcrafter (http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d78/tmrandall/74f6a578.jpg)

BRKT Highland Special (http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d78/tmrandall/BarkRiverKnife005.jpg)

Martyn

30-05-2006, 22:19

Well, the so-called improved bowie looks nothing like the American Bowie design. It also looks very little like what Americans typically carry into the woods today. Knife designs like this harken back to the early 20th century and before. Additionally, I think Grohmann would argue that it's a Canadian design. :)

Sorry Terry, I should've qualified it. I meant with the approach to butchering of hefty game being a major priority.

For the British lads, fine woodworking plays a much bigger part. :)

Hoodoo

30-05-2006, 22:48

Sorry Terry, I should've qualified it. I meant with the approach to butchering of hefty game being a major priority.

Yeah, that makes sense. But still, if you go back a bit, before hunting became so commercial and backpacking became self-contained, knives were expected to do woodcraft and there is a long tradition of woodcraft among outdoor folks of times past. So a knife had to do double duty. That's why thin bladed knives were favored by Nessmuk, Kephartf, Rutstrum, and the like. Both of the knives above are thin bladed and have excellent geometry for woodcarving. Get rid of the secondary bevel on a thin, flat ground blade and there's not much you can't carve with it. And if the blade is well-tempered, you can baton 1/8" blades to split seasoned wood without a problem, although most old timey woodsfolks generally relied on a hatchet or axe for such chores.

BTW, both of the knives in the pic have fairly wide handles and are plenty comfortable for hard carving chores. This is in contrast to the kinds of handles you often find on many American hunting knives.

Hoodoo

30-05-2006, 23:04

The top one looks like a standard butchers boning knife to me
http://www.sworddepot.com/product_images/vn-40010.gif

Without a doubt. But a little stouter and usually higher rockwell.

Herter went through quite a few different designs with his improved bowie. Never did understand the hump myself. :D

http://www4.gvsu.edu/triert/images15/improvedbowies1c.jpg

Martyn

30-05-2006, 23:07

Yeah, that makes sense. But still, if you go back a bit, before hunting became so commercial and backpacking became self-contained, knives were expected to do woodcraft and there is a long tradition of woodcraft among outdoor folks of times past. So a knife had to do double duty. That's why thin bladed knives were favored by Nessmuk, Kephartf, Rutstrum, and the like. Both of the knives above are thin bladed and have excellent geometry for woodcarving. Get rid of the secondary bevel on a thin, flat ground blade and there's not much you can't carve with it. And if the blade is well-tempered, you can baton 1/8" blades to split seasoned wood without a problem, although most old timey woodsfolks generally relied on a hatchet or axe for such chores.

BTW, both of the knives in the pic have fairly wide handles and are plenty comfortable for hard carving chores. This is in contrast to the kinds of handles you often find on many American hunting knives.

I agree there is more than one way to skin a cat.

But if you want to look at historical precedent, dont the Scandinavians have a fairly substantial history?

Hoodoo

30-05-2006, 23:12

I agree there is more than one way to skin a cat.

But if you want to look at historical precedent, dont the Scandinavians have a fairly substantial history?

Absolutely! I'm not knocking the Scandi design. I'm a big fan and have more than my share of all kinds of Scandi knives. But I think you will find that most scandi knives (excepting the large leukus) are thinner than the Mears Woodlore. ;)

As you say, there's more than one way to skin a cat. :)

uk ken

31-05-2006, 05:42

Hello

Thank you all for your input. :) It looks as though even here opinions are divided. I guess we all have our own ideas about what a knife should be able to do, what it should look and feel like and what the best construction materials are.

I will get back to you with any news on the knife that Sal might produce.

Cheers, Ken

Bjorn Victor

31-05-2006, 08:16

Hello all,

Nice thread!!

I would like a knife with a 4 - 4.5" blade and 4.5" handle.
Blade is a spear point and convex or scandi grind.
Steel is VG10.
Full tang.
The spine has to be "edged" to work well with a firesteel.
Handle material is kraton (cheaper than wood, but good grip) or wood (curly birtch for me please. :D ) and slightly contoured to fit well in the hand.
Sheath is waxed leather.
Not a deep sheath, but with a snap closure around the handle. This would make it easier to take out with one hand. Kydex is also ok for me (cheaper) but leather is much nicer!! A holder for a firesteel is not necessary because the firesteel falls out when it gets used and the tension in the holder is redused.

I would consider paying 150-200 euro for something like this.

Thanks,

Bjorn

steven andrews

31-05-2006, 11:42

I'm not really concerned about field sharpening as I do it at home with a Sharpmaker.
I'm not concerned about striking a firesteel with the spine as I use the striker that came with the Firesteel :rolleyes: (if my Bic lighters don't work)
I'm not a strict traditionalist ( I use a Sil-polyester tarp and a Gore-Tex bivi bag)

So...

I'd quite like a flat ground VG-10, D2 or S30V blade in a Mears Woodlore spearpoint shape, with a Fallkniven Thermorun-style handle and a leather sheath.

Ralph

31-05-2006, 11:51

For me the perfect bushcraft knife would be a woodlore but 1cm shorter and with a price tag 2 zeroes shorter. :lmao:
Nice thread. Interesting...

sal.

31-05-2006, 20:35

Hi all,

I thought to visit, thanx for the invite Tony.

Nice forum you have here. Many of you seem like "old friends" from other sites.

It seems that Ken has "challenged" Spyderco to create and build a "bushcraft" model. The project seems interesting, the input is certainly most valuable. It is an area of fixed blades for which we have nothing "in the works" so it's a good place to begin.

Ken has also posted on several forums so info is coming in from several directions. I think he could be classified as a "troublemaker" or at the very least an "instigator".

We would want to produce that which would serve the best, so detail is great.

Pics are great, yes Red, it's ok to be a "thread hog". (BTW, the sheath you and Tifferes made is really impressive!)

Need more input on the sheath fastening methods mentioned, both for the sheath to person and sheath to knife.

My first impressionis that two variations would be needed; VG-10, micarta handle, and carbon steel, wood handle. Leather and kydex sheath versions would also probably work best. Do any of you know anything about 52100 carbon steel?

Red, could you and Tiffers design a sheath(s)?

I think blade shape, length and grind would be first to nail down. I think 4" spearpoint full flat grind with sharp spine, texture on the spine at the rear "might" serve? 1-1/4" wide, 3-3.5mm thick?

Tang is an important feature. My first though is skeletonized full tang. That provides function even if the handle is destroyed (fire, age, etc.), but still keeps the tang light like a tapered tang. I'm sure you have ideas on this as well. Thoughts?

sal

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The entire "business chain" from; raw materials, invention, design, manufacturing, marketing, selling, distributing, shipping, warrantees, insurance, credit, etc. ALL EXISTS to service the ELU (End Line User). Remove the ELU from the equation and the entire business chain falls like a house of cards. We all work for you!

British Red

31-05-2006, 21:15

Sal,

Firstly let me welcome you to BCUK.

Of course I would be delighted to offer any input I can on sheaths, designs etc. I should warn you that I am just a heavy knife user though ;) I'll drop Tiffers a mail tonight and check but I would imagine she would be delighted.

There are many people round here with an encyclopaedic knowledge of knives, designs etc. and I'm sure they will all have a view on how you might proceed (I can't guarantee you will get the same opinion twice of course ;) )

Red

tarmix101

31-05-2006, 21:31

Hi all,

Do any of you know anything about 52100 carbon steel?

Tang is an important feature. My first though is skeletonized full tang. That provides function even if the handle is destroyed (fire, age, etc.), but still keeps the tang light like a tapered tang. I'm sure you have ideas on this as well. Thoughts?

sal

Welcome to BCUK. First off I think the skeletonized full tang is a brilliant idea. I very well could be wrong, however I can't think of a maker that does this now. Most are either full, or coffin/mortinized tangs.

As far as 52100 steel; it is a ball bearing steel and is used by forgers almost exclusively. From what I have read it is a high speed 1095 of sorts, with 0.98-1.10 carbon to 1095's .90-1.03. It also has chromium added (1.30-1.60)

I feel that VG-10 is a perfect choice for a stainless version, but as far as a carbon version, probably better off going with a carbon tool steel like O1. Seems that price vs workability would be a factor to be considered. Thanks for letting us contribute Sal :You_Rock_

British Red

31-05-2006, 21:58

We would want to produce that which would serve the best, so detail is great.

Pics are great, yes Red, it's ok to be a "thread hog". (BTW, the sheath you and Tifferes made is really impressive!)

Need more input on the sheath fastening methods mentioned, both for the sheath to person and sheath to knife.

sal,

The "double dangler" (or scandy swivel) is shown better in this picture

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/5282/doubledangler1nx.jpg

I wear the knife on the integral loop when not carrying a pack with the top loop tucked in behind the sheath. This way it rides "high on the hip" and doesn't "flap about". If wearing a bergan with a hip belt, I use the top loop and the knife hangs below the level of the hip belt and doesn't have to be removed when carrying the sack.

I would be tempted on a production sheath to make the top loop removable on some form of clip rather than solid ring. The user then has the choice of whether to use it or remove it if its not to taste (it could be an option in fact).

There is huge contention of firesteel loops - love em or hate em, you won't please all the people all the time. For a present for a friend of mine, Tiffers made a "companion set" that we designed to allow belt carry of stone and firesteel separate from the sheath

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/5115/shinken33qj.jpg

Someone on here designed a removable firesteel loop....a clever bloke not me...I'll try and find the post

Again this could offer an alternative to the integral firesteel loop so you please more of the people more of the time.

As for the kydex, the main things I would suggest would be to line it so that the blade didn't get scratched and to use one of the more flexible mounting systems. A positive "click in" engagement would be great (a la Becker Brute in Kydex etc) as would the ability to attach to a brergan shoulder strap (for the same reason as before - avoids fouling the hip belt).

My first impressionis that two variations would be needed; VG-10, micarta handle, and carbon steel, wood handle. Leather and kydex sheath versions would also probably work best. Do any of you know anything about 52100 carbon steel?

I think blade shape, length and grind would be first to nail down. I think 4" spearpoint full flat grind with sharp spine, texture on the spine at the rear "might" serve? 1-1/4" wide, 3-3.5mm thick?

Tang is an important feature. My first though is skeletonized full tang. That provides function even if the handle is destroyed (fire, age, etc.), but still keeps the tang light like a tapered tang. I'm sure you have ideas on this as well. Thoughts?

Well, I really like the full flat grind. Its less common than a scandy and just as maintainable. I'd err to 3mm rather than 3.5 but I think the consensus would be 3.5 or even 4 (which is too thick and drives to steep a grind I find). So for commercial not personal I'd say 3.5mm

Agree with the full tang - skeleton if you think weight is important - I prefer a "solid feeling knife" so would stick with jsut drilling for pins and tube

Hope that helps

Red

British Red

31-05-2006, 22:15

Sal,

Have a look at this thread for thoughts on a removable firesteel (all credit goes to Pignut - nothing to do with me). Some neat ideas on flexibility and suiting more of the people more of the time there I think

Pignuts Sheath (http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=12499)

Red

Tiffers

31-05-2006, 22:55

Hello Sal, welcome to BB :)

This looks like its going to be a very interesting project :) I'd be thrilled to help out with the leather sheath side of things and would suggest that it follows a similar kind of design input thread to the actual knife. Thats going to be a bit in the future though when there is a knife to play with, so for now I'll happily follow this thread and offer comments where I can :)

Tiffers

British Red

31-05-2006, 23:42

Martyn

01-06-2006, 00:43

Freudian slip. :D

sal.

01-06-2006, 03:24

Thanx Red. Good pics.

52100 is a ball bearing steel that has been used eclusively for forging blades because it has not been available in rolled sheet. We have recently found a source for sheet 52100. We are currently doing abrasive resistance tests on the material.

It might be a good carbon steel for this model?

Ball bearing steels ususally make very good blade steels becaue they are designed to be able to hold a grat deal of force in a very small area without "flattening". Similar to an "edge" of a blade.

BG-42 is a VIM VAR stainless ball bearing steel and it makes a very good blade streel.

52100 has a very fine grain structure and can be made very sharp.

Hey Martyn,

I took Tiffers comment to be BB = BushBozos ;)

sal

Martyn

01-06-2006, 04:34

Hey Martyn,

I took Tiffers comment to be BB = BushBozos ;)

sal

Hey, no fair Sal, that gem was for poking fun at the General. :p :D

Martyn

01-06-2006, 04:39

Thanx Red. Good pics.

52100 is a ball bearing steel that has been used eclusively for forging blades because it has not been available in rolled sheet. We have recently found a source for sheet 52100. We are currently doing abrasive resistance tests on the material.

It might be a good carbon steel for this model?

Good catch. Would make a superb knife and would be a marketing coup de grâce too, as to date, as you say, I've only ever seen it used on hand forged custom knives.

Just thinking aloud, aside from the wear resistance, it's got a little more chrome that O1. Do you think it's enough to affect/improve the stain resistance?

52100 gets my vote.

British Red

01-06-2006, 07:12

sal,

been turning this over in my mind overnight! Some thoughts for you that might find interesting

10% of the population are left handed.......

Many of the bushcrafters on here that are south paws have to get custom made sheaths. I think, with a friction fit sheath, it should be possible to be able to insert the knife on either orientation for left or right handed carry. This would imply to me that we need to make the sheath symetrical around a vertical plane...not too difficult, but we may need to think hard around how the neck carry option would work. I've though of using symetrical vertical side appertures (similar to the paddle sheaths that come with some of the smaller chris reeves fixed blades), but the paddle sheath is too radical for many. We could make an adaption to the design of the "double dangler" to permit a neck carry.

Anyone who prefers a neck carry - would you rather have the knife hang straight up and down or oriented on an angle with the hilt towards the drawing hand?

On the firesteel loop, two thoughts occur -

(1)We risk alienating people if we fix the sheath with or without. Some love and some hate it. We could design two (with or without) but I'm erring onto some form of removable loop that fixes onto the rear of the sheath (as opposed to through the neck carry slot like Pignuts does). This would permit the sheath to look "clean" if the loop wasn't fitted.

(2) We should make the loop able to cope with the steel wearing down - either filled with a compressible material that expanded as the steel wears down or sprung in some way (or even able to be tightened like a belt loop. As a prototype imagine a leather loop with an elastic gusset

I am getting an image in my mind of the sheath coming with two or three small extras that can be added to "configure" it in a number of ways - a removable top dangler section, a reversible / removable firesteel loop etc.

Thoughts anyone?

Red

Pignut

01-06-2006, 08:43

Simple press stud fixing for extras on the sheath,

you could use nothing more then the tube part of the sheath and have press stud extras, i.e. belt loop, fire steel holder, neck carry, stone holder, the posibilities are endless, not sure on the looks?

Just a thought

British Red

01-06-2006, 09:53

Like that mate - how about the press stud on the back of the sheath - one each side? Then you could set up for left or right handed carry or have two accessories (stone and firesteel) if using the belt loop. In fact if there were three, the belt loop itself could be removed for neck carry. Would that work?

Red

Pignut

01-06-2006, 09:59

Don't see why not!

You could make every part of the sheath "Add on" ie the belt loop could be stud on the neck carry loop could stud on accessory holders could stud on, especially if the patern for the studs was standard,

Nemisis

01-06-2006, 10:15

The problem with press studs is that they wear loose in time thereby risking the loss of knife and or kit. Why not sew or cut two loops near the top of the sheath one either side to take a square shaped screw lock karabiner with the belt loop then as a separate piece a double ended leather strip with a loop either end. Add one belt loop for normal carry two for dangler carry the one on the other side for a firesteel/stone type pouch like Tiffers designed. This has the effect of making the sheath left or right hand adaptable and any lost or broken karabiners field reparable with paracord etc. A further karabiner at the base of the sheath gives you the neck carry option with cord looped through it and a belt krab.
Dave.

Ogri the trog

01-06-2006, 10:24

Frankly,
I prefer not to have press studs at all - nor any other complex means of securing your knife into its sheath. To me it shows a lack of thought in the design of the sheath itself. That or you are expecting to be inverted and shaken whilst wearing your knife! There are some activities that just should not be undertaken whilst wearing a knife.
A good deep sheath that can either be worn as neck or belt carry is purfect.

Ogri the trog

British Red

01-06-2006, 10:24

Dave,

I take your point on the press studs and I do like the thought of screw locking on the accessories in some way. That'll be easy with kydex. I can't quite envisage your "loops" design - do you mean almost like a small firesteel loop on each side of the sheath that the karabiner could go through?

H

British Red

01-06-2006, 10:26

Ogri,

The press stud is more to allow a firesteel loop or accesory to be added to the sheath than to hold the kinfe in place - I agree with you on that - a deep friction fit is fine

Red

Nemisis

01-06-2006, 10:35

A loop or slot horizontal to the top of the sheath one either side to take the krab one side for the belt loops the other the pouch if the pouch isn't used the sheath lines are still quite clean. You could make two sizes of the add on belt loops then standard or exl for military belts
Dave.

pteron

01-06-2006, 10:56

From a size/shape point of view, I like the Woodlore, but it is a little too thick for food prep in my opinion.

I'd like a sheeth with the firesteel option, for woodcraft I prefer leather, with a simple profile, i.e. no excessive decoration.

The handle material? Either micarta or wood.

It should be friendly looking - no one is going to mistake the Woodlore for a Rambo knife, the Spyderco should be similar. If we are going out into the woods, we do not want a knife that will scare people.

C_Claycomb

01-06-2006, 11:24

I have been mulling this bushcraft knife idea over for a while. I am not a fan of the Woodlore blade as I feel it is too specialised for wood work, and in the real world, even if you dress in green and like Swandri, you are not going to NEED to carve much on wilderness expeditions. Not to the extent that you sacrifice general slicing ability for the "wood plane sole" cutting ability of a thick scandi grind.

That big flat bevel is a pain to resharpen in the field. At least that is how I find it. Trying to remove metal evenly from an 8mm bevel vs. a 2mm bevel, or very edge of a convex. It works on the Woodlore because O-1 is pretty easy to sharpen. I don't suppose that it would be so good in VG-10 or S30V.

I would prefer to see Spyderco make a knife based on their proven materials and techniques, but have the design tweaked for bushcraft, rather than have them try to draw too heavily from the Woodlore. More than one person has mentioned to me that the Woodlore instructors left their wood handled, carbon bladed, knives at home when on expeditions to Namibia, Thailand, and other places of extreme heat or dampness. A knife using VG-10, a nylon/kraton handle, and a kydex sheath would survive anywhere. Best would be a kydex sheath and Teklok for multi-position carry.

Having handled Spyderco fixed blades I have to say I was impressed with the weight, balance and multi grip ergonomics. Those overmouldings make a nice light knife that is easy to pack too. On second thoughts though, the use of Kraton might not be so good where DEET will be used.

For a temperate climate knife, 52100 would be nice. I was just wondering if A2 had been considered? Its air hardening, so can be treated by the same facilities that do the stainless steels, it holds an edge better than O-1, isn't a lot harder to sharpen (D2 can be) and is both tougher, and more resistant to corrosion than the O-1.

There is no such thing as the "Best" bushcraft knife. It doesn't matter what materials are used, there will be a chunk of the market that doesn't like the product. For many, something in 52100 with burl wood handles and a leather sheath would be perfect, and look the traditional part, but it would not look like a Spyderco and wouldn't, I think, make the best use of their existing well of experience. I think there is a big gap in the market for the kind of knife that Spyderco has made in the past, but with a form suited to our pursuit, rather than to hunting, self-defence, or utility.

My 2p.

Nemisis

01-06-2006, 11:40

In other words make a frosts mora better and cheaper lol.
Dave.

Doc

01-06-2006, 13:16

Heres my 2p. Much as I like the Woodlore, it is not absolutely ideal:

It is too heavy. Weight matters, especially if backpacking or canoeing.
It rusts too easily.
Birds eye maple handle not sufficiently waterproof.
Sheath retains moisture.
Too biased towards cutting wood (as mentioned by Chris).
Field sharpening I find ok, but could be easier.
It is too thick.
Finally, and the clincher for me is that it is too valuable. These days I am out in my canoe a lot. I have this nightmare that I tip and after successful self rescue find that I have £400 of Woodlore knife at the bottom of the loch....

On the plus side it is very robust, and is a superior tool for splitting wood with a baton (which I think is a very important task).

Another very important advantage of the Woodlore, for UK use especially, is that the blade markings ('Design Ray Mears') imply it is a tool for woodcraft/camping/outdoor living rather than a weapon. I would strongly suggest that a bushcraft knife should indicate on the blade what it is for in some way.

I was interested in Hoodoo's comments re the Herter as recently I've replaced my WS Woodlore with a stainless Grohmann boat knife. It is lighter and so far the Rosewood scales seem pretty resistant to water/heat. I have hot waxed (cuirboilli) the sheath and it's now pretty waterproof and the knife clicks in as if it were kydex. http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=864

I know nylon/kraton/kydex are more robust but aesthetics matter. I would suggest that rosewood or resin impregnated wood and a hot waxed leather sheath would be almost as practical but just 'nicer'. I'm no steel expert but something more corrosion resistant than 01 would be good.

C_Claycomb

01-06-2006, 13:54

To me the ergonomics of the handle are more important than what it is made of. Getting the right sort of curved cross section, with almost no flat areas, using handle slabs, be they wood or micarta, is much more difficult, from a manufacturing stand point, than using a moulded handle. That difficulty would normally translate into added cost. Even if the knife is a brilliant performer, and looks pretty, if it cost £150+ after it gets to the UK it isn't going to be viable for many people. That's cheaper than some customs, but is a lot more than an F1, or the Kellam type puukkos.

happy camper

01-06-2006, 15:09

I agree that there is definitely a need for a mass produced bushcraft knife in the lower to mid price range, say £40 to £100. Any less and you are competing with scandi’s that are good quality and work very well at prices as low as £8, and any more and you are starting to compete with what for many is the ideal, a handmade woodlore ‘esque bushcraft knife.
I also reckon a non “tactical”, non threatening appearance is a very important consideration for the U.K, not just to fit in with the bushcrafty style, but because of much of the general public’s perception and attitude towards knives as weapons rather than tools. While this isn’t an issue for the actual knife users, there aren’t many places you can go to practice bushcraft and use your tools without the possibility of bumping into someone who may not be so familiar with, or comfortable around knives, so the more tool like and non threatening the knife looks to the average punter, the better.
While i reckon the aesthetics and choice of handle and sheath materials should be in keeping with, and as far as possible express the knife’s intended use, in this case that of traditional bushcraft tool used mainly for woodwork, i still think this should allow for modern materials and construction where beneficial, and still manage to inspire the confidence associated with more tactical or survival or utility type knives that it will take absolutely anything you can throw at it.

Hoodoo

01-06-2006, 15:15

I've always liked the Gerber 475 as an all-round knife. The blade is nicely thin and well suited for bushcraft. The handle is super comfy. The guard area could be subdued a bit.

Too bad they stopped making them. Would love to see one in full tang and micarta, stabilized wood, etc.

http://www4.gvsu.edu/triert/images6/gerbera475b.jpg

Bjorn Victor

01-06-2006, 18:45

Hello there,

With all this talk about the perfect bushcraft knife I was wondering what you people need the knife for?

In other words: what do you do with you knife?

Sharpen a stick, cut rope,...?

I use my fallkniven S1 to split wood for the fire, cut fuzzy sticks, aid in building a shelter, opening coconuts, making a spear and cutting the occasional piece of rope.

What do you do?
I believe a knife should meet your needs, not just look "bushcrafty".

Bjorn

Tiffers

01-06-2006, 18:55

Hmmm, I was doing something repetative at work today and my mind started working around and about :)

Ok, how does this sound? An ambidextrous sheath that is stitched and welted all the way around. Nice and deep to help the friction fit. The belt loop that turns over the back isnt stitched down, instead it goes to a fastening of some kind (I'm thinking buckle purely as they are very unlikely to pop open).

Open the belt loop up and you can slide on a double dangler attachment or you can slip on a firesteel collar, or both if you so wish. The collar is retained by the belt loop and means you can position the firesteel to the side of the knife, the front or the rear.

Because the sheath is stitched all the way around its easy to also incorporate a couple of lash-down holes at the bottom for those who done like it flapping when on the double dangler.

Having a belt loop that unfastens like this means you can also attach it in places a traditional style belt loop isnt able to go. Not sure if this is a help but it sounds good :D

No press studs as they can foul up and wear out too quickly. No sam browne style studs as they can be pulled undone a little too easily for my liking.

The sheath maintains a nice clean look from the front but also retains the usual bits and pieces you bushcraft people seem to like :)

How does this sound?

I might knock up a version of this at the weekend.

Tiffers

British Red

01-06-2006, 19:20

Tiffers - thats certainly sounds good mate - tick on the ambi for certain and actually I really like the buckle thought too - a lot of people have commented (favourably) on the sort of bridle look the one you did for me has - it has a certain solidity.

The flapping problem is mine...I have rarely met another bushcrafter who worries about a leg tie down on their sheath so I might be tempted not to worry too much about that....unless.....could it form a sort of "spydie hole"??? Or....how about a sydie hole at the top of the sheath for those who want a neck carry?

The buckle up belt loop...could it also be made a feature so that you could put on or take off the knife without having to undo your belt? I guess I'm thinking buckle at the back, but a bit lower than normal so your hands can get at it and its not too fiddly. With the loop being "deeper" like that, you could also buckle it over a bergan hip belt if you wanted.

I have a Chris Reeves Mountaineer or an F1 you could use as a form if you like? :naughty: Well - worth a try :D

Red

sal.

01-06-2006, 21:53

Really good stuff. Thanx.

Martyn, sorry about the BB....life without humour is no fun ;)

I don't think 52100 would provide much in the way of additional corrosion resistance over 01, I think you would get some additional chrome carbides, but I'm not a metalurgist. The real advantage is the very fine grain structure of 52100 and it's a simple carbon steel which is still within the tradition.

Red,

I agree that "ambi" is important and needs to be considered from the onset.

This is good discussion as it explores more deeply the purpose. Thanx. Rotation of some parts from one side to the other sometimes offers simple solution to ambi. Is there a value to carrying a sharpening tool in the sheath?

My tendency is at this time to consider two variations of the same pattern. Traditional and modern materials (as Martyn would say, the NASA model). This also opens up questions about a 2nd modern sheath :rolleyes:

We have had some offers of designs from experienced bushcrafters, which we'll look at closely. We'd be building this for you so it is really imporant that it serve you. (you, the user, not the collector...it has got to work better, for us, or why bother to build it?)

I really appreciate all of the info and design solutions offered.

I'm open.

In the interest of following forum rules, I'd like to avoid costs, company or product promotion or anything commercial. A design symposium, if you will, to help us learn and develop a design, but no promotion of that design. Your kind understanding is appreciated.

sal

British Red

01-06-2006, 22:08

This is good discussion as it explores more deeply the purpose. Thanx. Rotation of some parts from one side to the other sometimes offers simple solution to ambi. Is there a value to carrying a sharpening tool in the sheath?

My tendency is at this time to consider two variations of the same pattern. Traditional and modern materials (as Martyn would say, the NASA model). This also opens up questions about a 2nd modern sheath :rolleyes:

sal
Sal,

The sharpening tool on sheath is probably even more contentious than the firesteel loop. Its sort of a divided issue. I say yes.......the rest of the world says no :). Now most of us carry a field sharpener of some sort. Falkniven DC4/3 diamond/ceramics are popular as are EZE - laps etc. I suspect we could easily design a pocket for one in, but which one?

As a principal, yes I think there is value. It would clearly add cost to the rig though - and would limit choice of sharpener.....although Tiffers put one on both the rigs we worked up, that was a very personal choice of mine...I'm not sure others would want to have their choice of sharpener dictated...

Anyone have an opinion on this?

Red

As for the more modern sheath, I'll turn it over in my mind...there are some real possiblities given some of the flexible mounting options offered now with lined kydex

Red

Nemisis

01-06-2006, 22:40

As many of us already carry some means of sharpening why not add a short strip of leather with a cord/loop at one end to be used as a strop something suitable to take a cutting compound?
Dave.

Ogri the trog

01-06-2006, 23:22

Wow, things have certainly gathered apace since I last looked here. Many posts have got me thinking off at a tangent which is a way of saying that I'm about to do a U-turn on my last ideas.
Perhaps a thinner blade than a WL would make any knife a little more user friendly. Chris is quite right about the ease of outdoor sharpening -a thinner bevel is easier than a wide one, as is the suggestion of some kind of blade marking that says tool not weapon.
Handle material could well be the kraton, but if we're thinking to keep it sheeple friendly, then maybe not black. I won't suggest a colour, because there'll be those that want it bright so you can't loose it and those that want it subdued.

The sheath ideas have got my mind all fired up with suggestions but it all sounds a bit too "Utility belt" when taken to the extreem.
An incorporated sharpener either permanently set to; or able to replicate the angles on the Sharpmaker. I envisage something like the pocket sharpeners with two crossed ceramic sticks. OR. Angled holes (A la Sharpmaker) in a kydex sheath with small crock sticks laid into a compartment in the spine of the sheath. I'm very wary of freehand sharpening in the field, only to have to repeat the process when I get home in order to recover the bevels to the correct angles.

Hmmm more thinks going on....

Ogri the trog

leon-1

10-06-2006, 01:27

soup_monger

10-06-2006, 01:46

That's sounds really good Leon.

I was hoping that something would take shape and I saw more constructive thought here on BCUK than I did elsewhere.

I'm looking forward to it now. :)

Cheers

laurens ch

10-06-2006, 02:06

I like the sound of that too ,I would prefer a plastic or kydex sheath
A micarta or diamond wood handle seems more practical and they don't look too bad either.
edit
would like 3mm thickness if possible

happy camper

10-06-2006, 02:17

Hi leon-1,
that all sounds good to me too, here's my 2p..

blade length...I'd prefer 80 to 90mm blade length but agree no longer than 100mm

depth of blade... between 25 and 30mm

blade thickness... 3 to 4mm (thin enough for slicing and carving but thick enough to not destroy a baton and to just feel robust)

Drop or spear point, (15mm drop sounds good but would depend on the other proportions i guess, prefer the point to be about centre of knife)

Grind...the 3/4 sounds interesting but i've never used one so it would be either sabre/scandi for me or even convex, both are excellent and have their own merits but a scandi pips it for me because a convex would put it up against the f1 and i want a scandi/sabre grind in stainless :D

Square spine (for scraping bark, ferro rod etc)

Steel.. stainless..love vg10 @ rc 59 and for carbon whatever will perform well with minimum maintenance around water

Handle shape..should be full and comfortable, no finger guard but enough shape to feel secure and know where you are, swell at the back like a woodlore, ambidextrous and with enough shape to be able to feel which way is which without looking.

Handle material..agree again, micarta stabalised wood, whatever it is it should be stable, easy to maintain comfortable and grippy in varying conditions.

British Red

10-06-2006, 09:25

Right guys, sal has a couple of threads running that cover sharpening and the sheath for this beastie. So what about this for the blade;

No More than 100mm long
Maximum depth of blade 35mm
width of blade 3.5mm
Drop point, dropping the point by 15mm from the spine.

Grind, 2/3 the depth of the blade, this maintains a certain amount of strength that you would have with the scandi / sabre grind and combines the slicing ability of a full flat without the edge becoming too fragile. It should mean that it will still be good for working wood and skinning of game.

Steel, for stainless either VG 10 or S30V @ RC 60, for carbon 52100 or O1 @ RC 58.

Handle either micarta, G10 or Stabilised wood this would solve problems of taking the knife to some of the wetter or some of the exceptionally hot enviroments. Length 115mm, with the tang tapered to make it lighter.

I'm intellectually outgunned on this one by all the bladesmiths so I can only talk as a user.

My perceptions are that I find some bushy knives too thick and too wide for both game and wood work. If I want to use a knife as an axe I'll use my Wiseman! So for me

100mm blade, 25mm wide and 3mm thick. Full flat grind (convex is too hard to field maintain for me and hollow too delicate). Scandy is fine but full has a clean look to it. I'd like a 12.5mm drop to keep the point blade central.

I'd like the handle to look organic (stabalised or diamond wood) but not shrink move or crack. I'm a "must have a lanyard tube" guy and I like the handle to be anatomical and curved (not square like an F1 which really lets that knife down IMHO). Don't know how to describe it properly, but thin near the ricasso and pommel with a central swell that goes all round the knife (for undercuts etc.). The handle should be oval in cross section, not round.

Red

Nemisis

10-06-2006, 09:40

That sounds very much like the Grohmann flat grind boat knife apart from the handle details.
Dave.

happy camper

10-06-2006, 12:54

Definately agree about the f1 thermorun handle British Red, too thin and square, it is the only real let down on the knife for me, which i think is absolutely superb. In Fallkniven's defence, perhaps it's use as a swedish airforce survival knife places some restrictions on the proportions? I'd be interested to know why Fallkniven opted for that handle, it seems wrong when everything else on the knife seems so right. The H1 has a fuller, more rounded handle that feels much more comfortable but even that is a little on the slim side for me.

Andy

10-06-2006, 12:55

I really really don't want a full flat grind knife. I see no advantage in that over a convex ground knife. A scandi would be my first choice and would mean that people who already have an F1 might be more likely to buy one ;)

blade depth somewhere between 25 and 30mm,
blade thickness 3mm (must be less then 4mm IMO)
blade point drop with point 2/3 way up from the straight cutting edge
bevels somewhere between 15 and 20per side
blade length about 95mm with a ricasso less then 5mm (2 or 3mm)

Just my opinion of course

Hoodoo

10-06-2006, 13:17

That sounds very much like the Grohmann flat grind boat knife apart from the handle details.
Dave.

:beerchug:

http://www4.gvsu.edu/triert/images15/Grohmann_pic1_v5.jpg

spamel

10-06-2006, 13:23

Why not make the sheath identical on both sides. No belt loop, buckles or press studs required, make the knife sit in the sheath deep like a lot of knives these days and supply something similar to the old style SLR bayonet frog. You can then put the sheath into the frog in either a left or right hand carry.

If you need the description of an SLR bayonet frog, many here could help. I'll look and see if I can find a link to something similar to show the idea.

tomtom

10-06-2006, 13:24

laurens ch

10-06-2006, 13:59

happy camper
" I'd be interested to know why Fallkniven opted for that handle, it seems wrong when everything else on the knife seems so right. "

only guessing here but perhaps the thinner handle works better if your wearing gloves.

Nemisis

10-06-2006, 16:56

I use the Grohmann No.4 survival knife as my main and the boat knife for finer stuff both in the flat grind Hoodoo. You agree Reds description comes very close to the boat knife?
Dave.

happy camper

10-06-2006, 16:59

only guessing here but perhaps the thinner handle works better if your wearing gloves.

makes sense!

Hoodoo

10-06-2006, 18:54

I use the Grohmann No.4 survival knife as my main and the boat knife for finer stuff both in the flat grind Hoodoo. You agree Reds description comes very close to the boat knife?
Dave.
Well, I guess he could tell ya that, one way or the other. :)

sal.

10-06-2006, 18:58

Hoodoo

10-06-2006, 19:47

That sounds good Sal. I think it's important to remember, though, that where a lot of knives fail for bushcraft is in the handle. It needs to be wide enough to give plenty of support for the hard use of woodcraft. Nothing gets your attention more than to try to carve seasoned hard wood with a narrow, poorly contoured handle. It hurts. That's why even carving knives with small blades typically have large handles. BTW, I'd vote for 3 mm. :)

Also, I would make the secondary bevel a small one. It's easier to get rid of. :D

happy camper

10-06-2006, 19:53

sounds exciting, look forward to seeing it! :D

tarmix101

11-06-2006, 04:57

It sounds great. I have never used a knife made out of 52100, but look forward to it. As far as thickness, I would go for 3mm. Just my preference. Thanks Sal :You_Rock_

Look forward to the pics.....

British Red

11-06-2006, 13:43

Sal,

Another one for 3mm mate!

I'm with hoodoo on the handle! As it happens, I do quite like the blade layout on the Grohmann boat knife, but that handle gives me the shudders - I't be quicker to list whats right than whats wrong (I speak as a bloke who owns a Grohmann skinner). I'm sure its great for its purpose, but its not right for my bush knife

Red

Andy

11-06-2006, 14:15

Shinken

11-06-2006, 16:23

I actually am begining to quite like knives that are a lil squarish, the f1 is a little too squarish i think. 3mm is also my ideal for a flat grind 4mm is better with hollow grind me thinks.

the replies in this thread just go to show how personnel a knife is, what feels confortable to one isnt to another!

British Red

11-06-2006, 16:44

Aaah but you just voted for sal to stick with 3mm flat ground! Cheers Ash (pssst tell him you really fancy 25mm width too :) )

Red

demographic

11-06-2006, 16:55

The "perfect" knife is the relativley unexpensive one that you carry with you...

The three hundred quid one crafted from finest unobtanium with the vanishingly rare exotic hardwood handle that's left at home cos it's "too nice" to use is about as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike :rolleyes:

It's amazing that prehistoric man managed to evolve modern levels of sophistication without owning any one particular type of knife, perhaps they were just far more adaptable than us... ;)

On to the "handedness" of the sheath, why not just make a certain amount (about 13-15% if THESE (http://www.anythingleft-handed.co.uk/faq.html#percentage) figures are anything to go by) of the sheaths for southpaws and offer a factory exchange policy on new sheaths so if someone buys a knife they can exchange sheath for the right one?
If they buy a secondhand knife then they will have to buy it instead cos otherwise the factory ends up with loads of secondhand sheaths.
That was you don't have an ambedexterous sheath that looks like a right dogs dinner.

Also the knife should come from the factory with a few scratches on it to stop people poncing around with them ;) , a bit like Land Rovers should have a few factory installed dents and dings so people who buy em don't just do it to pose in Tesco's carpark and never take em offroad.

sal.

11-06-2006, 17:00

I guess 3mm it is. Sometimes I'm easy, at least that's what my wife, Gail, says. ;)

Hi Hoodoo,

I'l be hand carving the handle myself to get the ergos comfortable. There has been some discussion on handles being too thin, so I need more input.

Best heigth?

Best thickness?

Blades are for cutting. Handles are for holding. They do not, IMO, have to be "balanced" to the eye.

I realy appreciate the input on the project. It's this kind of project that makes the job fun.

sal

Shinken

11-06-2006, 17:01

Oh and bu the way i think 25mm width is just about perfect :BlueTeamE

British Red

11-06-2006, 17:34

Thats another pint I owe you ash :)

Nemisis

11-06-2006, 17:36

Sal handles are more individual than blades in the majority of cases the one thing most agree about is that it should be stablised, many like liners and a lanyard tube. Why not do like many custom makers here and make two versions 1) fully finished 2) a finished blade,sheath and blocks, liners,bolts etc for those wishing to build and finish there own handle? Works out cheaper for you in production costs and the buyer gets a semi customised knife.
Dave.

British Red

11-06-2006, 17:41

I guess 3mm it is. Sometimes I'm easy, at least that's what my wife, Gail, says. ;) sal

:You_Rock_

:approve: :approve: :approve: :approve:

Best heigth? 1 11/4" across the ricasso (30mm)

Best thickness? 3/4" to 1" (16 to 22 mm)

Length 4 1/2 " (110mm)

Thats right for me, but I have been accused of "girly hands" - oh and it must be contoured!

Red

Naruska

11-06-2006, 19:00

sheath-wise, the J.P.Peltonen Ranger knife is the most versatile I have ever bumped into...available left- or righthanded, can be hung from the belt, strapped horizontal, or hung upside down on a shoulder strap...and the knife (capable of making feathersticks or digging a trench...)is easily withdrawn and replaced with one hand at all times...no need to fiddle with buckles etc...

Marko

Martyn

11-06-2006, 19:31

After many drawings and "soft" models based on input here and other forums, we do have a "pattern" made of a "bushblade". Nothing is decided yet as I'm still waiting on some outside designs.

It's not quite a spear, but dropped a little more than a drop point.
The blade length is just under 100mm.
Blade depth is 29mm.
Point is 12mm below spine line at rear.
Thickness on the model is 3mm, but I think I'd like to go 3.5mm.
Handle length is 123mm.
Material is 52100 carbon steel.
Model is full flat grind with 32 degree edge, 59Rc, I wanted to do a CATRA test
on Monday and needed something to test.
I'll try to post a pic on Monday for your thoughts. (need help on pics)

This will also give Red, Tiffers & team some idea of the direction.

sal

Sounds good Sal, well apart from the full flat grind. Can I ask why you chose that grind?

For woodworking, I'm a to the core fan of the scandinavian grind. I just havent come accross anything yet that can match it for that task. I'm not saying it cant be matched, just that I havent come accross it yet. I'm not trying to be awkward, just curious. You've obviously taken a design choice to buck the trend, I'm curious about the rationalle for that?

Ta.
Martyn.

British Red

11-06-2006, 19:40

Martyn,

Is this grounds for a poll to help sal out? Sort of

- Scandy
- Full
- Convex
- Hollow

Summat like that anyway?

Red

Labrador

11-06-2006, 20:06

Grohmann Flat Grind Boat knife for me I'm afraid!
Just for interests sake, A. Wright & Sons in Sheffield were designing a Bushcraft Knife for factory production & therefore at a more reasonable price.
May be worth a look by those of us who are more "budget concious"!
:swordfigh :confused:

Andy

11-06-2006, 22:13

A. Wright & Sons in Sheffield were designing a Bushcraft :
maybe someone on here said there might be a market for one ;)

I'm glad Sal has gone for 3mm and not 3.5
my design came out at 27mm with a 3mm thick blade and scandi grind with a drop of 12mm

as for the handle I'm a fan of ones which flair out slightly. My scandi has little drop behind the little finger which stops it sliding through my hand when chopping with it. I'd like a fishtail type shape if looking at teh handle from above as well. The F1 has this a little bit but the handle is a little thin.
For the most part I think the handle should be about the same heigh as the blade, maybe with a little bit of curve at the top (star at same height as the blade and raise a couple of mm and then drop back down slightly below the spine height where the handle flairs outwwards.

I think I;d find it far easier to just cut a handle shape from styrofoam and send a 3D modle to you.

British Red

11-06-2006, 22:31

Andy,

Could you make the whole knife out of styrofoam and post a pic? Not grind obviously but the hilt in context of the blade always helps! I like the sound of the fishtail, but I think images really help the imagination challenged (me)

Red

Andy

11-06-2006, 22:46

not until I get back to sheffield at least. It may be possible for me to knock up a profile design once I get back though. rough shape could use ply wood for the blade and glue on something that I could shape for the handle

Hoodoo

12-06-2006, 00:00

Well, here's some handles with varying degrees of sculpting to think about. #6 is a WS Woodlore.

http://www4.gvsu.edu/triert/images15/bushcraft_handles1d.jpg

Nemisis

12-06-2006, 00:23

Hey Hoodoo how long does it take you to decide which knife to take on a trip lol
Dave.

Hoodoo

12-06-2006, 01:16

Hey Hoodoo how long does it take you to decide which knife to take on a trip lol
Dave.

Heck, that's easy. It's always the one I just got. :D

British Red

12-06-2006, 06:50

Hoodoo,

Any chance you could repeat that photo with a side photo (keeping the knives in the same order)?

That would be a great help to people in describing handle design to sal!

Cheers - Red

Hoodoo

12-06-2006, 13:01

Your wish is my command, Oh Red One. :notworthy

http://www4.gvsu.edu/triert/images15/bushcraft_handles2c.jpg

Andy

12-06-2006, 14:39

I'm thinking of a 4 and 6 cross. I like the top profile from 4 and the side profile of 6 (which looks similar to a F1)

threads on this knife are now running on here, BB, bladeforums and the spyderco forum. This one seems to be the most active at the moment. The spyderco forum had a chat about the pro's /cons of a laminated stainless blade people on here seem to talk more about the handle then other places and less about blade steel

British Red

12-06-2006, 15:18

[QUOTE=Hoodoo]Your wish is my command, Oh Red One. :notworthy

[QUOTE]

:lmao: :lmao:

Thats really helpful mate - I'm heading to a number 4 ish layout with a bit more contour above the spine (go for a mortice tang ??).

What is no.4?

Red

British Red

12-06-2006, 15:20

I'm thinking of a 4 and 6 cross. I like the top profile from 4 and the side profile of 6 (which looks similar to a F1)

I think No. 6 is a WS Woodlore?

Red

Hoodoo

12-06-2006, 16:46

I'm thinking of a 4 and 6 cross. I like the top profile from 4 and the side profile of 6 (which looks similar to a F1)

#6 is a WS Woodlore. #4 and #5 are OSF knives.

I've never cared for the beak on the WS Woodlore pommel. It does a nice job of digging into your hand in the tip up position.

http://www4.gvsu.edu/triert/images15/woodlore_beak1c.jpg

In contrast, here's an OSF knife. It has one of the most comfortable handles for hard use of any knife I own.

http://www4.gvsu.edu/triert/images15/osf_pommel1c.jpg

I also don't like sharp rounding at the spine. A little flatness or gentle rounding there goes a long way in distributing pressure across the hand for hard use. Just my personal prejudices. ;) #2, for instance, appears narrower than the others but it has a nice, relatively flat spot across the top that makes it quite comfortable for hard use.

Lots of ways to skin a cat, eh? ;)

British Red

12-06-2006, 17:13

happy camper

12-06-2006, 17:21

The side profile of no.5 (the osf knife?) looks good combined with the profile of no.6 (the woodlore) when viewed from above, i think overall the woodlore is good, if anything its handle could do with just a little more meat in all directions for me, i like the narrowing towards the front (as viewed from above) and the narrowing at the back before swelling out again to a fishtail feels nice and comfortable and secure to me, although i'd agree with hoodoo about rounding off the beak on the pommel.

Hoodoo, have you got any more details about the osf knife? it looks interesting :D

Andy

12-06-2006, 18:09

I meant 4 and 9 not 4 and 6. I'm a silly billy

the woodlore bit is a bit pointy but it works for some. I guess maybe it's more hand size specific then some others

Hoodoo

12-06-2006, 18:11

Very interesting and useful mate. Now a couple of questions:

1. Who are OSF? Have you a link or summat (new one on me)
2. On the top view, the handle profile of no. 4 (Wood OSF?) looks slimmer than no. 5 (Micarta OSF?) Is that just me or is it really like that - I have to say the slightly slimmer profile looks more comfortable

Red

Edit

Suplementary question - doesn't your later post actually show an Alan Wood Woodlore rather than the Wilky one? If so, how many black Micarta Woodlores does one bloke need :D

Red

OSF refers to the Outdoor Survival Forum at Knifeforums. Some years ago, a group of guys that hung out there who wanted a full tang woodlore-style knife came together and designed the knife. Nick Wheeler ground the blades, and they were sold as bare blades. Some were forged, some were stock removal. Mine (as were many) had scales put on by Blademan, who was the person that actually got the ball rolling in the first place. The blades were made of different thicknesses, different grinds, and different steel, all depending on what you wanted. It was really an incredible undertaking. I have 3 OSF knives, none of which cost over $100 completed, so it was an incredible deal at the time, especially considering Nick tapered the tangs. But we were lucky as Nick was just becoming recognized for the outstanding maker that he is, and we got him "cheap" at the time. :D

#4 is slimmer than #5. #4 has desert ironwood scales, 1/8" O1 stock. #5 is 5/32", O1 stock.

This one is ground from 1/8" ATS 34:

http://www4.gvsu.edu/triert/images7/osfstainless1b.jpg

I'm pretty sure that's a Wilkinson Sword woodlore. It's the same one I wrote an article on for Tactical Knives magazine so I don't think I would get it confused with an Alan Wood-lore. :D

BTW, WS sent me two Woodlores. No charge... :p

sal.

12-06-2006, 18:49

British Red

12-06-2006, 18:56

Makes sense - didn't think you would be confused mate - I just saw the AW monogram in the photo so thought it might have been another one...anyway you 'fessed up to having two :)

I do like the Ironwood one though - always was partial to Ironwood and a slimmer "precision" blade - tapered tang too IINM - lovely work! I would say "first refusal if you want to part with it" but sal would probably slap me :D

I'm going to sketck on top of No. 4 in a bit and see if I could "improve on perfection" a bit.

I was thinking of posting a few piccs of my own meagre selection but I suspect they would be embarrassed to be seen in such company ;)

Red

British Red

12-06-2006, 19:00

Sal,

I do sharpen my scandy's on a flat stone - lay the cheek flat and rock forward onto the bevel and then "push" to sharpen driving the burr off the blade edge (I strop at the very end to remove any residual burr). Theres some piccs I did in the sticky thread called "£5 sharpening kit" that shows what I mean.

That said, I would only sharpen on a rock as a measure of last resort!.

Red

Edit to add

I've added a poll thread on grind

British Red

12-06-2006, 19:19

Here the little "tweak" I would look for on a perfect handle
- shown by the red line

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/6638/osfmod1xh.jpg

Probably a bit tricky to do but a slight anatomical forming of the top of the handle really amkes a lot of difference to me - no unlike the "barrel" handles of some Scandinavian knives

Red

happy camper

12-06-2006, 19:29

I might be completely wrong but i would tend to think the "sharpening on a found rock" scenario might not be what many people actually do, in practice. It sounds like a nice idea but i would only really look for that quality in a survival knife, if atall, and even then only do it as a last option if i wasn't prepared enough to have remembered a decent means to sharpen.
I tend to take alot of care of my tools and imagine most people do, that doesn't mean i don't subject my knives to hard use, i do, i've used some to destruction, but they were very sharp when they fell apart. I like to keep a shaving edge on anything i'm using on wood and wouldn't really fancy using anything that won't comfortably push-cut, so for me at least, a good sharpener to suit the grind is almost as important as the knife itself.

sal.

12-06-2006, 19:41

This is the pattern that we're testing on the CATRA.

http://img261.imageshack.us/content.php?page=done&l=img261/5806/fbbc12junm3rz.jpg

sal

sal.

12-06-2006, 19:50

Hi Red,

no prpblems sharpening anything on a flat stone (except maybe serrations). It's the "sharpening on a rock" part that I see as being difficult with a scandi grind.

Camper, I tend to agree with you. We'll get into the "ideal portable sharpner" when we decide on the grind to use. ;)

sal

Ogri the trog

12-06-2006, 19:58

.... We'll get into the "ideal portable sharpner" when we decide on the grind to use. ;)

sal

I'm looking forward to that.

And thanks for the insight into the Catra test profile example, I think thats going to grow on me pretty fast. Now put me out of my misery and tell me what Catra stands for? :confused:

ATB

Ogri the trog

Hoodoo

12-06-2006, 20:00

Good looking blade Sal! Definitely has a spydie look to it. :D

steven andrews

12-06-2006, 20:08

We'll get into the "ideal portable sharpner" when we decide on the grind to use. ;)

sal

Ooooo a Sharpmaker Carbine!

sal.

12-06-2006, 20:14

Cutlery Allied Trade Research Association

The machine is made in Sheffield, We have one of about 20 built.

The machine tests abrasion resistance on knife blades.

sal

British Red

12-06-2006, 20:15

tarmix101

12-06-2006, 20:30

Sal,

Can I advanced order the first off the line of both the trad and the tactical? :D That looks very, very very nice. Now I have to say I'm still voting full grind - it will suit that knife down to the ground!! Definitely a bushy spydie! Most importantly, NOT another "me too" bushcrafter, but a fresh look at the practical outdoor knife. Love it.

Red

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/5806/fbbc12junm3rz.jpg

Couldn't agree more. The point IMHO is what sets it apart for me. Not quite a full drop point, and not quite a spear point either. Seems to be a collaboration of both. Looks as though it could drill through just about anything, with control. That was my main "beef" w/ my spear point scandi! I like the flat grind and could easily see this one being used quite a bit.

Did you use a full skeletonized tang?

Nemisis

12-06-2006, 20:50

It looks like a shark
Dave.

leon-1

12-06-2006, 20:53

British Red

12-06-2006, 21:09

It looks like a shark
Dave.
This (I think) is a good thing? :)

sal.

12-06-2006, 21:16

Thanx, it's a start.

Actually, I'm just trying to interpret what you are saying, so I can't take credit.....but you can.

Hi Tarmix,

Yes, we would skeletonize the handle as much as we can without sacrificing strength. My philosophy in design is much like Nature, "No more than necessary, no less than perfect". So I always try to eliminate as much uneeded weight as possible.

Sorry Red, no commercial discussion. Design only. But.....I will have to send you a sample to design the sheath around. We're counting on you and Tiffers for the sheath design. No pressure here :p

BTW, Haven't heard the exression "Suits me down to the ground" since I was in Zimbabwe & Joburg. Where are you from? Gail & I left Southern Africa with, "suits me..." and we left the American, "**** boy howdy". Local expressions are a lot of fun.

Thanx much for the poll.

Current "in-house" name is "Bushblade" (assuming it's not being used).

sal

Nemisis

12-06-2006, 21:23

Yes I meant it not in an aggressive way just first thought entered my head on seeing it. Beautiful,sleek and functional. As a good knife should look no bells or whistles just a knife.
Dave.

Hellz

12-06-2006, 21:24

Looks great so far :D

I really like the gentle curve of the blade, nice and easy to sharpen. Not sure if I'd have preferred a straighter spine or not. Will have to wait till I get one to be sure :rolleyes:

Good going

Hellz

Tiffers

12-06-2006, 22:13

Now thats a very nice knife indeed :) As has already been said, its not at all like anything out there......at least not to my limited knowledge :D

I look forward to getting something to work with :D

Tiffers

tomtom

12-06-2006, 22:46

Sal, I like the look of that very much, is the blade of the dimensions you stated in post 80?

It's not quite a spear, but dropped a little more than a drop point.
The blade length is just under 100mm.
Blade depth is 29mm.
Point is 12mm below spine line at rear.
Thickness on the model is 3mm, but I think I'd like to go 3.5mm.
Handle length is 123mm.

happy camper

12-06-2006, 22:50

We'll get into the "ideal portable sharpner" when we decide on the grind to use. ;)

sal
Excellent :D more fun!!
I'm sure i speak for everyone when i say thanks very much for involving us Sal, it's alot of fun problem solving and throwing ideas around, and a great opportunity to feel part of and contribute in a small way to something that will, i'm sure, be both highly functional and beautiful. :beerchug:

Andy

13-06-2006, 10:25

well you've got the drop about ideal IMO. It's a bit had to tell from photos but it looks like the cutting edge starts to curve very quickly. I'm not sure how that will affect some tasks but most of my bushcraft type knives only start curving to the point in the last few cm so it might be worth investigating.
The handle looks good from the side too. The shape should allow a chopping action to be used but looks ok for the other grips as well.

soup_monger

13-06-2006, 10:52

Yup, that looks great to me.

I'll be having one of those. :D

Well done to all those who contributed ideas and to Sal, of course, for the execution.

Hellz

13-06-2006, 10:52

I like the look of the curve of the edge, reminds me of the Spyderco military only with a more constant arc. The Military is a hell of a cutter :Wow:

I'm getting in quick with my name suggestion... The Spyderco WyldWood

:D

Hellz

Nemisis

13-06-2006, 10:58

Any plans for file lines along the back as a thumb grip like on the grohmann?
You could call it the Spyderco Red One lol.
Dave.

British Red

13-06-2006, 11:50

Current "in-house" name is "Bushblade" (assuming it's not being used).

sal

But thanks for the thought Dave ;) - I do like Wyldwood too (where the Wild things are??)

I'm with you on the file lines on the spine - really helps thumb on top grip! Not a Grohmann exclusive either - pleanty of others inc Chris Reeves do the same thing

Red

Graham_S

13-06-2006, 12:03

also try not to round off the spine so it can strike a firesteel. :D
i'll vote wyldwood too, great name. can't wait for this one.

Hellz

13-06-2006, 12:18

Any plans for file lines along the back as a thumb grip like on the grohmann?

Files lines would be great, it will help the grip in the absence of the Spyderco 'Hump' :D

Hellz

Martyn

13-06-2006, 12:18

Great pics Hoodoo, thanx much.

Martyn, we ground the first pattern full flat as I needed to do an edge retention run on the CATRA. When we test mules, we grind flat with consistent edge angles so the tests are comparable. We've not tested 52100 yet so this is a good opportunity.

Thanks Sal, makes a lot of sense, comparing apples with apples. :)

On the modern ("NASA") version, we'll more than likely go full flat as I believe that market will prefer the full flat grind. I agree. It'll be interesting to see which knife sells better in which area.

On the "traditional" version, we're open. There does seem to be some differences in preference.

I must say that I am a bit confused by the seemingly contradictory statements of "scandi" grind requiring a "flat" flat stone, and the "sharpening on a rock" adaptability.

I do not think that I could sharpen a scandi grind on a rock and do a good job.

I dont think it's about doing a good job, just an adequate job.

Sal, it's about ideals. How many 4x4 owners take their vehicle off road? Not many, but they still want one. How many people buy a technical mountain coat and only ever go shopping in it?

The point is, people want ideals and bushcraft is no different. I'll probably get flamed for this but... probably 90% of bushcrafters could get buy just fine with a frosts mora. So why buy anything else?

because they want to buy the ideal.

You see a bushcrafter may start out having hardly any use for a knife, for them almost any knife will do. As they progress, their tools become more specialised. The ultimate aim is to live in the woods, entirely self sufficiently, making what they need from the environment. They want to take the bare minmum of consumable western items and the kit that finds favour is usually low tech, tough, long lasting, durable, sustainable and environment friendly.

In most cases, people dont go nearly as far as actually living for extended periods in the woods, but that doesnt change their kit choices.

It's not that a bushcraft knife actually will be sharpened on a rock, it's that it could be sharpened on a rock. It most cases, it never will, but that doesnt matter. Many bushcrafters carry a DC3 or DC4, either is capable of putting an excellent edge on any knife, but that's not the point. To say to someone, have X because you dont really need Y, is like saying have a family saloon, because you dont need a 4x4. They will nod in agreement, then go out and buy the 4x4 anyway.

The only thing that really impacts on this is steel choice. Carbon, yeah, stainless no. Grind doesnt matter as whatever grind was on the knife, it would just get a small secondary bevel by sharpening on a rock. No big deal, some scandi's have secondary bevels anyway. In fact I would think in a pinch, it's easier to get a knife sharp on a rock, with a zero bevel scandi that any other grind profile - because you are changing the profile, rather than going with it.

Martyn

13-06-2006, 12:47

...same thing applies to grinds. If you were making me a custom knife, I'd probably ask for a full flat, as that's my personal favourite and suits most of the things I do. But I'm not a bushcrafter and dont pretend to be one. My personal needs in a knife are not really for the extensive woodcarving that a bushcraft tool should be.

I would still buy a bushcraft knife though and use it for those times/trips where I felt like I wanted to play. So if you ask me what grind should a bushcraft knife be, the answer has to be something different to what grind do I personally prefer.

sal.

13-06-2006, 17:12

I think I'm going to change the "butt" a bit, it's a little "hot" (uncomfortable) at one point which needs to be softened. I'll know more when I begin carving the handle.

"Jimping" (file lines) on the spine in front of the handle. How long should the jimping be?

Spine must be sharp to work firesticks.

Hi TomTom, yes, the dimensions are as indicated.

Thanx for the input Martyn. Next, what is the ideal inclusive angle for a scandi grind?

thanx again.

sal

Nemisis

13-06-2006, 17:30

Jimping first 25 mm works for me. Maybe just the next 25 mm flat ground to give a dedicated area for using the firesteel?
Dave.

British Red

13-06-2006, 18:07

Yep about an inch of jimping (cool - new word :))

Red

Martyn

13-06-2006, 18:26

Thanx for the input Martyn. Next, what is the ideal inclusive angle for a scandi grind?

I've got 40 degrees in me head Sal, but I've no idea where from. Somewhere, in the depths of me brain, it's been discussed and that figure has been logged, but I cant give you references or rationalle.

Hoodoo

13-06-2006, 19:25

Don't know if this will help since its bias is mainly woodcarving but this is from Wille Sundqvist in Swedish Carving Techniques:

New knives are often factory grouind with very acute edge angles. It the case of the Mora knife, the edge angle is usually 19 to 20 degrees. A few manufacturers grind their knives to even more acute angles. Knives with very acute edge angles are not able to withstand much use without chipping, and therefore must be rounded somewhat to support the edge. This is more or less what happens in the factory when the knives are ground and polished. The knife pictured below [a Frosts mora] is a new knife, as it came from the manufacturer. The enlargement shows part of the blade and the bevel, and a narrow line at the very edge. This narrow line is the ever-so-slightly rounded edge reflecting light. A knife like this will work fine for hunting, fishing, cutting vegetables and stripping electrical wires. It will even work for wasting large quantities of wood when roughing out blanks. But it will not work well when you want to shape objects and finish carve. For precise carving and detail work, you need to have exact control over the amount of wood being removed. This kind of carving requires that the bevel be flat and not rounded in the least.

This pic shows how the bevel he is referring to is measured.

http://www4.gvsu.edu/triert/images15/bevel1b.jpg

Andy

13-06-2006, 21:11

I've got 40 degrees in me head Sal, but I've no idea where from.
I think that's what the woodlore is. The Bearclaw field knife is 40total
I think a little more acute is fine and would just say between 30 and 40 total. The mora I have is 23total and it's too acute, my knife with a trond blade works out about 30 and I have no trouble with chipping

British Red

13-06-2006, 21:34

I like a fairly narrow angle. The best scandy I have has a 6mm bevel on 3mm steel which (if O level trig serves) is about 30 degrees. Its O2 steel and never chips

Red

sal.

13-06-2006, 21:37

We're doing the math on a 30 degree Scandi on a 3mm thick blade.

sal

Andy

13-06-2006, 21:40

a 6mm bevel on a 3mm thick blades give you an inclusive angle of 30degrees give or take

Andy

13-06-2006, 21:43

5.79mm bevel on a 3mm thick blade sal

British Red

13-06-2006, 21:46

Has to be done somehow

Sin 15 degrees (half angle) / 1.5mm (half depth) = hypotenuse (bevel depth)

1.5 / 0.2588 = 5.796mm

I'll get my coat :o

Red :D

British Red

13-06-2006, 21:47

Andy - pysch

But I venture to suggest that it should be 5.80mm (given the assumption of rounding up over 5) :)

Oh how sad I am

Red

Andy

13-06-2006, 21:54

yeh but the steel tends to come slightly under thickness. my calypso jr was meant to have 2.5mm thick steel but it was only 2.478mm

degree maths is so much less fun

soup_monger

13-06-2006, 21:55

:lmao: ..This is getting funny.

Martyn

13-06-2006, 21:57

Given that it is a helluva lot easier to put a small rounded bevel on aftermarket, than it would be to take one off and make it true flat, would it not make sense to supply such a knife with a true zero bevel and then leave it up to the customer to round it if they want to?

Martyn

13-06-2006, 22:00

Its O2 steel and never chips

Red

What's O2 steel?

Tiffers

13-06-2006, 22:01

I know when I'm thinking about this knife I've been calling it the....

"BushSpyder" :)

Tiffers

Martyn

13-06-2006, 22:44

Sorry Red, curiosity got the better of me, had to look up O2, never heard of it before.

Oil hardening tool steel.

C 0.85-0.95
Mn 1.40-1.80
Si 0.50
Cr 0.35
Ni 0.30
Mo 0.30
V 0.30
Cu 0.25
P 0.03
S 0.03

British Red

13-06-2006, 22:46

What's O2 steel?
Its O1 tool steel typed by a bloke with dyslexic fingers (which I suspect you guessed?). Cant think about trig and metallurgy (Neither of which I really understand anyway) at the same time :)

Red

Andy

13-06-2006, 22:51

"BushSpyder" :)

Tiffers
sounds like something they might have in Australia (no doubt is a small cute little thing with enough venom to take out a heard of elephants)

British Red

13-06-2006, 22:54

yeh but the steel tends to come slightly under thickness. my calypso jr was meant to have 2.5mm thick steel but it was only 2.478mm

degree maths is so much less fun

I can't stop :D

Hmm now lets consider this for a mo

Sin 15 degrees (half angle) / 1.5mm (half depth) = hypotenuse (bevel depth)

1.5 / 0.2588 = 5.796mm

So accepting for a moment that the steel comes up thin ....about 1% in your example

1.485/0.2588 = 5.73mm

So if the steel comes up thinner should we round down to a 5.73mm bevel rather than 5.79mm?

:offtopic: :nana: :22: :sad6: :ban:

I'll stop now :D

Martyn

13-06-2006, 23:08

Its O1 tool steel typed by a bloke with dyslexic fingers (which I suspect you guessed?). Cant think about trig and metallurgy (Neither of which I really understand anyway) at the same time :)

Red :lmao:

No I didnt guess, I'd just not heard of O2 being used, I think it could be though I have no idea what kiind of knife it would make.

Rhodri

14-06-2006, 09:06

We're doing the math on a 30 degree Scandi on a 3mm thick blade.

sal

That would be just about perfect IMHO.

Some of the lads have got carried away with the sums I see... :rolleyes: :lmao:

How precise are your grinding jigs Sal? Can you do tenths of a mm?

Cheers,
Rod

soa_uk

14-06-2006, 15:20

I visit British Blades less, as I'm trying to minimise my knife expenditure for going out into the woods type things.

So, OK, the axes, and the F1 were, of course essential, and I bought those for bushcraft.
I had a momentary lapse and bought a Military, L'il Temperance and a Police. RIght. No more folders. So now Sal's making a bushcraft FB. In *two* versions.

Give my wallet a break!
The design looks really nice so far; I'll be interested to see it in a sheath...

Marts

14-06-2006, 16:44

Desert Ironwood :)

Martyn

14-06-2006, 16:58

The techno model will prolly be a plastic/resin based material, but are there any ideas or suggestions on the handle material for the traditional version knife ...

I like the naturally oily woods like cocobolo or rosewood. But, maybe curly birch or maple might be more popular?

Mark

Cocobolo might be the best bet, but some people are strongly alergic to it. Desert Ironwood is nice, but it's rare, expensive, proteced and not exactly eco-friendly. Perhaps Walnut or somesuch. There is no shortage of oily hardwoods in the US.

Roefisher

14-06-2006, 17:11

Cocobolo might be the best bet, but some people are strongly alergic to it...

A very important point, Martyn ... here's a good explanation of possible problems ...

"There is no doubt that some woods can be potentially toxic to some people. The question is always one of "what degree". This cannot truly be answered. Each individual has different degrees of resistance, some more prone to allergic reactions, and others not so. Every day our knowledge of tree biology and chemistry grows, leaving us with more information, but also more questions. How all this relates to each individual is impossible to know. All we can say is "be cautious". Use new woods in a limited way, with proper respirators, until you know that it has no adverse reaction with your body.

Toxicity can mean a lot of different things to different people so here are some basic ideas:

Natural Chemical Poisons:
This normally refers to chemicals produced by the tree. It has been suggested that these chemicals originated as part of the tree’s natural defense system against insect and other animal attack. They tend to be present in higher concentration in the sap, bark and foliage of the tree, and to a much lesser extent in the trunk. For example, the foliage of black cherry contains a precursor of cyanide, but yet we work with the wood with little difficulty. Woods that are naturally oily, even after kiln drying are much more likely to cause an allergic reaction, just because the wood’s oil can transfer onto your skin more easily and enter the blood stream. The reaction can range from that of a mild irritant, to something that is truly toxic and lethal, although the latter is very rare."

My own opinion is stick with Cocobolo and give out rubber gloves to anyone in doubt :D

Mark

tarmix101

14-06-2006, 18:39

Cocobolo might be the best bet, but some people are strongly allergic to it. Desert Ironwood is nice, but it's rare, expensive, produced and not exactly eco-friendly.

I agree w/ Martyn on the Desert Ironwood. Looks very nice but will add to the price of the knife and is harder to get. Cocobolo is easy to get, looks nice, great for durability, and cost less.

I myself have a slight allergy to cocobolo (break out in hives on my skin) but only when I am working/sanding it. Once I have the handle done and treated it dosen't bother me. I can even handle a untreated block and that really doesn't affect me.

soup_monger

14-06-2006, 19:07

I would still vote for Micarta or a synthetic handle for an outdoors knife.

British Red

14-06-2006, 19:27

tomtom

14-06-2006, 20:59

Desert Ironwood :)

isnt there/wasnt there some bans on the collecting desert iron wood as it is becoming quite rare.. i dont think the use of rare/endangered tree species fits well with the bush craft ethic

Nemisis

14-06-2006, 21:25

This is why I think the knife should be offered in a kit form or as a finished blade/sheath option. That way each knife is individual to its owner and in some ways the most important way the handle fit. We all tweak cutting edges to our own taste so long as we are happy with a basic grind type, if not happy we don't buy. But there tends to be more complains and niggles about handles and there shape/fit rather than for aesthetic reasons

Dave.

Bjorn Victor

14-06-2006, 21:34

I really like curly birch (and other light coloured woods).

I have seen a poll for the grind. Maybe a poll for handle material?

Split it in two:
Wood (curly birch,...)
Synthetic (kraton,...)

Make two knives: one with the most chosen synthetic handle and one with the most chosen wood handle.

Or is that not possible?

Bjorn

British Red

14-06-2006, 21:42

Bjorn,

I think Sals plan is to make a "traditional" knife and a "Hi tec" version so yes both are possible. Not sure how to list all the woods though or whether sal has one im mind?

sal???? Do you have a preference for handle material?

Red

tarmix101

14-06-2006, 21:47

Bjorn Victor

14-06-2006, 21:58

Good evening "O Red One", :D

some tips:

List 6 or 7 easy to find, common wood sorts (birch, maple, ...), but nothing too exotic (read: expensive) or illegal or something that causes allegies (like cocobolo does, so it seems).

List 4 or 5 five synthetic types that are easy to manipulate. I'm not an expert, but many knives have kraton, thermorun,...

No bone or horn for reasons of animal wellbeing. (just my opinion...)

What is micarta? I see it a lot, but have no idea what it is... :o :o
It should be in the list though.

This will also help.
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=10436

Bjorn

EDIT: It's also up to Sal of course. :You_Rock_

British Red

14-06-2006, 22:07

Bjorn,

Happy to do it, just want to check first with sal - I think hes quite open to ideas on the trad (wood handle) model but has some clear ideas on the modern version. There may be necessary design limitations like using only stabalised wood, diamondwood or micarta to avoid shrinkage.

Micarta is stablised linen or paper (bonded with something like fibreglass resin). I'm sure there are more accurate explanations but it makes nice patterns, doesn't shrink, can be many colours and can be shaped (feels okay too). That gives the steel junkies an opportunity to correct me :)

Red

Martyn

14-06-2006, 23:45

Perhaps a good time to draw peoples attention to this excellent thread...
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=10436

C_Claycomb

14-06-2006, 23:59

I was just thinking of that thread Martyn :D

The original Woodlore was intended to have handles made of British fruit wood. That was not available, so maple, with a Forest Stewardship Council stamp stating it was from a renewable source was used.

Wood like curly birch may not be as common as it is now. Speaking to "Cod12ie" from BB, I was told that Masur birch was very much harder to get now than it was in the recent past.

As has been stated. Even woods that cause allergies when worked are safe for all but extremely sensitive people when finished on the knife. This is a non-issue.

If you are going to have a carbon blade, I don't see that a synthetic handle is needed. A well finished handle will stay stable long after the blade starts to rust. The expedition version is another matter.

Micarta is a phenolic resin/cloth (or paper) laminate generally used in industry for electrical insulation, tooling, and fixtures. For use as slab handles it is by far the most popular synthetic available, being strong and easy to shape and finish. Many other synthetics are moulded rather than ground to shape.

Martyn

15-06-2006, 01:08

I have a strong liking for Ironwood myself failing that burr oak would look nice. Dark browns or reds I feel (not olive wood or anything Ikea like please). I'm not wild on walnut unless you get real exhibition grade stuff.

Red

Ironwood is like that though, unless you have a good burl, it's rather plain. It used to be my favorite but I've started to think the heavy burls are a bit "in yer face". I've seen some gorgeous walnut handled knives recently (One of em by Mr Claycomb) and the deep, rich wood has a beautiful figure but a real understated classy look to it.

Walnut:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v644/ahjno/BCUK%20Encyclopedia/walnutbisonbuscraft.jpg

Lovely.

tarmix101

15-06-2006, 02:26

Perhaps a good time to draw peoples attention to this excellent thread...
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=10436

I have never seen that thread before. Worth it's weight in gold :cool:

Thanks Martyn :notworthy

Marts

15-06-2006, 08:35

Just a thought but since this is a bushcraft knife made in the US maybe the wood handle should come from an indigenous US tree?

Rhodri

15-06-2006, 09:43

Just a thought but since this is a bushcraft knife made in the US maybe the wood handle should come from an indigenous US tree?

I'd tend to agree - I'm a bit of a fan of osage orange (http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/osage%20orange.htm) . A lot of good US custom makers make excellent use of it... :)

sal.

15-06-2006, 13:25

Great thread Martyn, thanx much.

I'm open to any and all woods except Cocobolo. My wife,Gail, is highly allergic to Cocobolo.

sal

Banjobill

15-06-2006, 13:48

I think the idea of using native US timber is a good one.

For light wood I suggest Big Leaf Maple Burr, and for a dark one, American Black Walnut.

Both have interesting figure and are relatively cheap and plentiful in the US.

A couple of links for a bit more detail:

http://www.thewoodbox.com/figuredwood/big-leaf-maple.htm
http://www.thewoodbox.com/hardwoods/blackwalnut.htm

ssj

15-06-2006, 16:00

From an asthetics standpoint walnut would be wonderful. I don't know how it would hold up to hard use but I suspect it would do well.

I hope one of the versions of the knife won't have a blackened blade. My apologies if the question about the blackened blade has been answered previously. If it was, I missed it.

The design, from my perspective, has excellent symmetry and looks like it will be great for bushcraft uses.

I don't know if the length has been decided but I'd like to see something a bit shorter than the prototype. Perhaps 85-90 mm. To me, the extra length is just unused steel and is a little in the way.

Steve

sal.

15-06-2006, 16:37

Hi Steve,

No plans for a blackened blade on any of the versions.

sal

British Red

15-06-2006, 16:46

sal,

Do you want me to put a poll up as to woods on scales? I can only list 10 options so if you have a view as to what ones you think would be viable in terms of economy, durability, and fabrication, I'm happy to stick up a poll if that helps?

Looks like the grind question is well and truly answered anyway :)

Red

Ted Voorde

16-06-2006, 08:27

Would it be an idea to have blank/bare blades available also (like the Fallkniven F1) ?

sargey

16-06-2006, 16:28

There seems to be a difference in the US UK way of doing things. It seems a lot of people in the US want a flat grind knife which then needs to be a bit thicker to keep teh strength up while most of us in the UK want 3mm thick blade but one which is 3mm for about half the depth. I wonder which is the stronger format.

the triangle wins! the full flat grind in 3.5-4mm will give you a stronger knife than the 3mm scandi or sabre grind.

you can get the thicker stronger knife using the same amount of metal in the blade. depending on the actual numbers, the cutting edge geometry will not be compromised. the same amount of metal in the blade translates to the same weight. so the feel will be very similar.

cheers, and.

sal.

20-06-2006, 00:57

Hi Red,

A poll on handle materials would be great. Is wood preferred by all?

Hey Ted,

At what level of finishing would you want the blank to be?

Cut out.
cut out & heat treated.
Cut out, heat treated and surface ground to thickness.
Cut out, heat treated, surface ground and bevel gound.
Cut out, heat treated, surface ground, bevel gound and sharpened.

sal

leon-1

20-06-2006, 01:15

Hey Ted,

At what level of finishing would you want the blank to be?

Cut out.
cut out & heat treated.
Cut out, heat treated and surface ground to thickness.
Cut out, heat treated, surface ground and bevel gound.
Cut out, heat treated, surface ground, bevel gound and sharpened.

sal

Hi sal, what Ted is talking about is basically a finished blade, Cut out, heat treated, surface ground, bevel ground and sharpened. Effectivley the knife without the handle fitted or the sheath, no extras.

Quite a few of us like to play and fit knives with handles and make the sheaths, this way we end up with a tool with the handle specifically to our own spec as with the sheath (you can't please everyone all the time:rolleyes:).

I must admit a blade only option would be something that I would look at as well

Quickbeam

20-06-2006, 19:22

One of the major factors for me would be price. The reason I like my F1 so much is that it provides quality at a sensible price. This means I'm far happier to use it than say my Fallkniven Idun or Gene Ingram. If it gets lost or damaged it won't be the end of the world. I like the idea of two versions, I guess I'd end up buying both.

Is wood preferred by all?
sal

Is it worth considering a stacked leather handle like the Fallkniven Northern Lights range as well? I have an NL5 Idun which I like a lot. Asthetically wood is very nice but it has to be capable of survivng a dunk in a washing up bowl now and then.

Nick

Ted Voorde

20-06-2006, 20:33

Hi sal, what Ted is talking about is basically a finished blade, Cut out, heat treated, surface ground, bevel ground and sharpened. Effectivley the knife without the handle fitted or the sheath, no extras.

Quite a few of us like to play and fit knives with handles and make the sheaths, this way we end up with a tool with the handle specifically to our own spec as with the sheath (you can't please everyone all the time:rolleyes:).

I must admit a blade only option would be something that I would look at as well

Yes indeed. What leon-1 said. I might be able to sharpen it myself, but that's about it. :D I also wouldn't mind if the kit included pins and a lanyard tube. :)

sal.

21-06-2006, 00:17

We're open to kits.

Let's finish the design and go from there.

I'ver changed the pattern of the handle twice since the first blade was cut. I'm still not satisfied with the ergos of the butt in the edge up thumb on bottom of handle position.

blade is still the same.

We found that the most functional "scandi" grind was under 20 degrees inclusive and that was still a very short bevel, by our standards. Is this unrealistic?

The edge retention on the CATRA was respectable at 58Rc. Not a CPM number, but competitive with most good steels.

sal

British Red

21-06-2006, 00:23

sal,

Howdy mate - I'm just running a slide rule over the 20 degree andgle - did you get the e-mail from Tiffers BTW?

Red

tomtom

21-06-2006, 00:23

when you say functional.. what sort of tests are you putting it to?

20degrees sounds pretty thin.. its no bad thing if its up to the job but have you tried to batton it through a bit of seasoned oak?

British Red

21-06-2006, 00:38

Sal,

20 degrees should give about 8.6mm bevel. Based on your design spec of a 29mm depth of blade, thats what.......just under a third of the blade ground to a bevel. Of course it is 3mm rather than the 3.5mm you originally wanted. For me, thats not excessively fine, But I do prefer a "precise" blade. 58rc seems in the usual range so no worries there. I guess for me now, its going to be a question of edge retention, chipping and rolling of the fine edge.

I guess it wants to be used on some hard carving use, maybe jointing some fair sized bones and pehaps boring into a hard but knotty surface. If it takes all of that without damaging the edge and point, should be fine for me

Red

sal.

21-06-2006, 01:52

Hi Red,

What's a "slide rule"?

:rolleyes: ;)

sal

British Red

21-06-2006, 02:02

Ahh yes - want a real laugh? How do you think I do the trig to calculate bevel depth :confused:

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/6843/sinetable1su.jpg

For those of you not smiling now and scratching your head thinking "what is that book about" my response is "oh to be so young"

My sine and log tables don't need batteries either :p

Red

rapidboy

21-06-2006, 08:30

:lmao: :lmao:

Brian

21-06-2006, 10:58

Red,

Just don't spill tea on them, makes them very hard to read. :lmao:

Brian

Andy

21-06-2006, 16:06

20degrees inclusive seems very thin to me, if the blade can handle it then fair enough but I found that with my mora which worked out at about 23/24inclusive the edge tended to roll and lasted much better after a little fine honing at 30degrees. That knife did seem very soft though, also the bevels were slightly hollow grind so I guess there wont have been quite as much steel behind the edge as their could have been.

you can always send one to me and I'll test it against other scandi knives and an F1

riddleofsteel

21-06-2006, 22:07

Overall length. 22cm
Blade length. 11cm
Blade thickness. 4mm
Blade depth 26mm
Blade material. 01 Tool Grade High carbon steel. 59 Rockwell.
Finish. Satin
Construction/edge. Full tang, Single bevel

Stewart Marsh Buscrafter

http://yerfrockethellhound.com/smbushcraftknifewe.JPG

Although I have come to the conclusion that no single blade can do all Woodcrafting jobs. when I am gone overnight or on a canoe trip my kit includes a Norlunds camp axe, Bark River Northstar and Buck three blade folder. These five blades carry different levels of bevel and sharpness and perform the varied jobs of survival better than my single "Woodcrafter" knife.
http://yerfrockethellhound.com/norlundsnessmucktrio2.JPG

sal.

22-06-2006, 02:28

Thanx Andy.

That was a concern of mine as well. Acutally I'd like more input on the grind angle of scandi grinds as I have no experience with this grind.

sal

rapidboy

22-06-2006, 09:38

PM sent Sal

Ogri the trog

22-06-2006, 14:06

Acutally I'd like more input on the grind angle of scandi grinds as I have no experience with this grind.

sal

My WL clone has an angle of about 35 degrees (estimated from the fact that it doesn't fit either angle of the Sharpmaker set exactly). Though not sure of the origin of those angles, it stikes me as a perfect camping companion, at best its a firestarters delight. I own no other knife that is as good at making feathersticks for fire lighting, nor is anywhere near as strong for battoning logs for the fire. Any sharp edge is going to help in procuring shelter, cutting cord or fabric so it'll cope adequately with that.
At a guess, in the Scadinavian countries, if you can make fire - then you are at least going to live through the night. When trying to do finer carving once you have warmth and shelter, then you'll probably reach for a tool with a narrower/finer grind as the Scandi does feel very agricultural when put to more delicate tasks.
And so, for me, if I'm out for a wander or going with a destination in mind, this is the blade that I keep with easiest access. I can rig shelter wherever I stop and get a fire going for a brew so long as there is fuel to be had.

Cheers

Ogri the trog

uk ken

28-06-2006, 14:28

Hello All

It is great that things have developed to this stage. A big thank you to Sal for being prepared to listen and to all who have contributed ideas :You_Rock_

Cheers, Ken

British Red

28-06-2006, 15:12

Ken,

Tiffers has a prototype sheath for sal to have at a look at but we are struggling to get an e-mail through - if you speak, could you ask him to contact Tiffers or me please?

Cheers

Red

RovingArcher

28-06-2006, 17:36

sal.

28-06-2006, 18:12

Hi Red,

I got Tiffers email. I've just been snowed since the blade show. I'm currently carving a handle.

I have also purchased, and am still doing so, a number of bushcraft pieces to study.

I'm also waiting for some outside designs from experienced bushcrafters. It might be fun to produce a number of pieces and see what the market sorts out.

sal

Dunelm

29-06-2006, 13:14

Interesting to see Riddle of Steel (a Manowar fan perhaps?) is taking a Northstar on his trip. I've had my Northstar re-scaled with bur elm and also had an internal lanyard tube fitted rather than the external lanyard loop. All this much looks nicer but the handle shape still has an uncomfortable bulge at the bottom which digs into the hand.
The blade is very good, although the point could be sharper but the handle leaves something to be desired - this from something that was touted as the "perfect" bushcraft knife.

I'm waiting for my Bearclaw Field Knife to arrive - I ordered #48 last July, and I've currently got a lovely hand forged Aage Fredriksen scandi blade away being made up by Dave Barker so I'm all knifed up at the moment. But I can be tempted...

British Red

29-06-2006, 14:21

Dunelm,

To me the difference this time is that sal has taken the time to ask the users what they want and to seek feedback on proposed designes etc.

Personally, I'm not certain there is a perfect knife for all tasks, its question of "the right tool for the job", however I'me delighted to have a chance to input into which tool I am given!

Red

Hoodoo

29-06-2006, 14:37

Hi Red,
It might be fun to produce a number of pieces and see what the market sorts out.

sal

Super idea Sal. The American market is long overdue for a good woodcraft knife. It's been dominated by hunters for as long as I can recall. Back in the early 1900s, a knife had to be both hunter and woodcrafter. We seemed to have moved away from that. Woodcraft is becoming a lost art. But with a little help from the knife community, maybe we can spark an interest in it. Next we need a good, lightweight Spydie hatchet. :D

Kephart cutlery (http://sci.wcu.edu/access/MSS80-24/Journal07/J07pdj5-a.jpg)

tarmix101

29-06-2006, 20:30

Super idea Sal. The American market is long overdue for a good woodcraft knife. It's been dominated by hunters for as long as I can recall. Back in the early 1900s, a knife had to be both hunter and woodcrafter. We seemed to have moved away from that. Woodcraft is becoming a lost art. But with a little help from the knife community, maybe we can spark an interest in it. Next we need a good, lightweight Spydie hatchet. :D

Kephart cutlery (http://sci.wcu.edu/access/MSS80-24/Journal07/J07pdj5-a.jpg)

Couldn't agree more Hoodoo. Well done Sal. Look forward to seeing the final prototype :cool:

Andy

25-07-2006, 15:43

I was wondering how this was going

leon-1

25-07-2006, 15:57

I was wondering how this was going

I am sure sal will let us know when he has any developments, I seem to recall that he was on the other day so would of thought if he had anything new for us he would of said.

sal.

30-07-2006, 13:48

Update,

Thanx fer askin'.

We recently received protos designed by bushcraft experts that seems very nice. I'm studying the pieces.

We also received some very good sheath input from Tiffers & Red.

Now I've got to put it all together to plan production.

We're also tring to plan a sharpener to go with it.

sal

Mr_Yarrow

31-07-2006, 10:03

Sal,

Any ideas on time lines for the future with this one? Im not asking for a production date of course, just your gut feel is all, production in;

spring 2007
summer 2007
fall 2007
winter 2007

Rgds

Freds Dad

04-08-2006, 21:27

Quickbeam

14-10-2006, 19:46

I'm interested to hear if there have been any further development, does anyone know anything?

Nick

Craft Geek

15-10-2006, 04:45

I'm interested to hear if there have been any further development, does anyone know anything?

Nick
I have heard that prototypes should be ready by the end of the year.

justdave

15-10-2006, 05:18

I kinda like this one......
[url]www.brokenarrowknifecompany.co m/index_files/Page307.htm[url]

TheGreenMan

16-10-2006, 19:40

...The project seems interesting, the input is certainly most valuable. It is an area of fixed blades for which we have nothing "in the works" so it's a good place to begin...

...We would want to produce that which would serve the best, so detail is great...

...Need more input on the sheath fastening methods mentioned, both for the sheath to person and sheath to knife...

...My first impressionis that two variations would be needed; VG-10, micarta handle, and carbon steel, wood handle. Leather and kydex sheath versions would also probably work best...

...I think blade shape, length and grind would be first to nail down. I think 4" spearpoint full flat grind with sharp spine, texture on the spine at the rear "might" serve? 1-1/4" wide, 3-3.5mm thick?...

...Tang is an important feature. My first though is skeletonized full tang. That provides function even if the handle is destroyed (fire, age, etc.), but still keeps the tang light like a tapered tang. I'm sure you have ideas on this as well. Thoughts?

sal...

Hello Sal,

I’m coming pretty late to this thread, and I’m not quite sure how I missed it, but here are my ideas anyway.

Blade length: 130mm. This is a little longer than the long established ‘no longer than the width of a man’s palm’ wisdom (which I believe is good sense). However, I believe the extra length would make ‘batoning’ of fire wood a little easier for those who insist on not taking a hatchet with them. And would be of value in a ‘one tool scenario’ such as an emergency survival situation (Which is a little different to a ‘bushcraft’ situation).

Blade thickness: 3 – 4mm

Steel type: Something from the existing Spyderco ‘stable’ for product continuity (And I’m no expert on steel, so am reluctant to suggest something specific, that has not already been mentioned). Although, for the purists, a carbon steel blade would be better in the sense that a spark can be generated when used with quartz stone.

Blade shape: Spear-point with no taper either toward the rear of the handle, or toward the point, for maximum strength at the tip. And little or no choil to maximise the length of the cutting edge (Having a cutting edge as close to the handle is better when cutting deeply into something, as one can exert a lot of body weight into the cut, when cutting close to the handle).

Grind: A flat Scandinavian type, with no secondary bevel at the cutting edge. This is a very easy grind to maintain at a ‘shaving sharp’ standard ‘in the field’ by honing only, with the fine side of the Spyderco Double Stuff ceramic sharpener. And so, no new sharpener would need to be developed.

This is something that is somewhat embarrassing to admit, but I messed up, badly, the grind on my UKPK when I tried sharpening it with the Double Stuff stone by hand. This was entirely due to my lack of skill <blush> (And I don’t own a ‘sharpening system’ of any sort which would have made it easy to maintain the correct bevel angle).

The solution, borne out of desperation, was to convex the bevel at the cutting edge. The happy result of this was that I only have to hone the edge on the fine side of the Double Stuff stone to keep it ‘shaving sharp’, which would be a plus when ‘in the bush’.

Therefore my slightly controversial suggestion for an alternative to the Scandinavian flat grind is to convex the flat grind. This I think, would be unique (In the sense that I don’t know of any other company who produce a blade with a cross-section that is parallel, until the cutting edge grind, which is then convexed instead of flat.

This cross-section I believe would produce an edge that would be easy to maintain (Even by the inexperienced) with a few stokes on the fine side of the Double Stuff ceramic, and keep the risk of chipping the edge to a minimum (At a blade thickness of, say, 3.5mm). And despite what novices think, a convex grind is one of the easiest to sharpen.

A convex grind might also off-set the concerns of those to whom vegetable preparation is important, in respect to a convex blade’s improved ability to slice.

However, I’m personally not of the school of thought that a ‘bushcrafting’ knife should be capable of julienneing carrots, of chiffonading herbs. My primary concern it that the blade should be very robust, and that a ‘shaving sharp’ edge can be maintained when ‘in the field’ with a minimum of sharpening equipment.

Handle type and material: A generous palm swell for maximum comfort if the knife needs to be used for many hours of continuous use. And I’d like to see something in bead blasted canvas ‘mircata’ (Because of the good grip) in tan/brown/olive green options. I think that many ‘bushcrafters’ shy away from black, as this can look a little ‘tactical’. And hand-to hand combat is definitely not part of the ‘bushcraft’ ethos, as I’m sure you appreciate :)

Sheath: NO loop for a firesteel. NO pocket for a sharpening stone. This is overly fussy, in my humble opinion, and adds unwanted weight. And we are all ‘grown-ups’ and know how to secure our fire steel and sharpening stone :eek:

As far as colour is concerned, again I’d like to see something ‘natural’ not ‘tactical'. Perhaps, tan/brown/options, in leather, with a friction fit. A belt loop that permits the knife to be held close to the body, and drawn with a single hand would be nice. I think that the need to access a knife while wearing a rucksack with a hip belt would be rare, but a low-dangling sheath would also be a nice option.

An alternative could be provided with tan/brown/olive green Kydex (Again, somewhat unique [Thinking from a marketing point of view] and Kydex might present an opportunity to address an ambidextrous solution), with a fitting that could provide both vertical and horizontal belt wear. The horizontal position would be more discreet, which might be useful in countries where people are a little nervous of types that have knives in plain view on their belts (A major problem in the UK). Kydex also provides an option for those who have the opportunity to hunt big game, and to clean the sheath to a high standard of hygiene when the blade has gore on it on a regular basis. Leather without a liner is a problem in this respect.

Anyway, hope this has been of use and/or interest.

By the way, having seen the image of the prototype, I’d just like to say it has a distinctive look and brings something new to the bushcraft/spear point design. Well done! Not an easy thing to do. My only negative criticism is that the small size of that flat grind is going to be difficult to preserve without a ‘sharpening system’, at least I, as a relatively inexperienced knife sharpener, would find it so.

Best regards,
Paul.

PS: Many thanks for the UKPK, I take it pretty much everywhere I go.