Take only photos, leave only footprints. [Archive]

HuBBa

30-05-2006, 16:28

Thats easy. Hand to heart, i never leave anything that isn't bio-degradable in nature. And that includes packaging and such that is bio degradable but not nice to see in nature.

But then i've lived by that mantra when scubadiving for many years though then it's "Leave only bubbles, take only pictures."

Leodhasach

30-05-2006, 16:34

In all honesty, for me its completely true. Its always been impressed on to me the importance of leaving no trace, this has been very recently reinforced after attending my 1st bushcraft course at the weekend.

Great Pebble

30-05-2006, 16:38

Well, I'd like to think that everybody packs out their rubbish.
There's a bit more too it than that though.

If you light fires for instance, what do you burn? (the take part).
And have you ever scorched a rock?

Question inspired by meeting someone who is currently engaged in such interesting activities as kicking over cairns and turning rocks over so that scorches etc. cannot be seen. Both "evils" he blames on "people like me" who cannot follow the mantra above....

gregorach

30-05-2006, 16:57

I don't think it's a good idea to get too hung up on that particular mantra. I've seen plenty of places ruined by nothing more than too many footprints. It is impossible to live without having some affect on your surroundings. The only way you can really leave the wilderness untouched is to kill yourself now.

Like most things, it's a quesiton of trying to strike a sensible balance. For example, your mate is probably destroying many established moss and lichen colonies by overturning cairns or rocks. As for scorchmarks, many stones have 'em already... For example, the dykes in the Pentlands all contain schorched stones - presumably from when the houses they used to be part of were burned to drive their occupants from the land to be replaced by sheep.

Anyway, there is absolutely no "untouched" landscape anywhere in the UK. It's all the result of human intervention.

Great Pebble

30-05-2006, 17:08

gregorach

30-05-2006, 17:22

Oh, ramblers... Say no more. ;) ;)

I guess it probably comes down to something approaching a tribal sense of identity, 'cos the "leave no trace" approach really doesn't hold up if you take it to it's logical conclusion. Heck, you can't even avoid all impact by killing yourself - your corpse has to go somewhere. What they really mean is "do as I do - validate my choices".

Personally, the "leave only footprints" thing gets my goat... It gives the impression that as long as you're just walking through the landscape you're not causing any harm, which just isn't true. I once estimated how many tonnes of soil are removed from Glen Coe every year on people's boots - it's a heck of a lot.

'Round here, kicking over cairns certainly is regarded as vandalism though... And potentially dangerous vandalism at that: "No, we can't be there, the map says there's a cairn..."

For many people, there's nothing more valuable than their own sense of self-righteousness.

Not sure how coherent I'm being here though... ;)

anthonyyy

30-05-2006, 17:24

I suppose a part of bushcraft is using the resources of nature – like wild food, firewood etc. Doing so means that you break that rule.

I feel its about an attitude of nature being someplace you go and visit – like going to the opera – when you’ve finished you go back home. In an ideal world I would like the “wilderness” to be my home, but practising bushcraft is my way of making it my home for a short period. For the sake of the planet man and nature have to be able to live together. It is not enough to ring-fence some wilderness areas and I feel that the practice of bushcraft may make us in some way become part of nature again.

Great Pebble

30-05-2006, 17:24

Rather more than I am a lot of the time.

Lithril

30-05-2006, 17:34

Although I like the philosophy behind the phrase, I think it can be taken too far. For instance, erosion of footpaths is massive so leaving only foot prints, if done by several hundred people, will be much more devestating than a few a scorched rocks by one person.

bambodoggy

30-05-2006, 17:36

I have to say I agree fully with Gregorach and as for leaving only footprints maybe if they didn't leave so darn many then the footpaths in various National parks around the country wouldn't be getting wider and wider, with all assocciated errosion caused! :rolleyes:

Ramblers cause damage too....even if they can't see it themselves. :eek:

I would, however, defy anybody to find a wild camp site that I've used more than a day after I leave and the leaf bebris I have scattered has settled. ;)

Cheers,

Bam. :D

Snufkin

30-05-2006, 18:02

I know... And he's not my mate :p

He was actually quite irate, almost spilt his real ale.

It's just that his interpretation of philosophy (and he says that of his fellow rambler types) is rather more literal than I imagine is the norm with bushcrafters.

You know... If you burn that log, or carve a spoon from it. You're denying the next person to come along the right to see that log. You are in fact... A vandal. :rolleyes:

And it's not entirely a case of the man being an isolated loon as I can remember letters similar in tone in a magazine (might have been Trail) directed at the leading light of British Bushcraft.
And these are the folks with goretex jackets, nylon backpacks plastic map covers and high tec synthetic tents who pack in foil wrapped foods they heat up with gas stoves. All those resources came from somewhere but as long as it's not from their backyard it doesn't count as environmental vandalism.

bambodoggy

30-05-2006, 18:05

And these are the folks with goretex jackets, nylon backpacks plastic map covers and high tec synthetic tents who pack in foil wrapped foods they heat up with gas stoves. All those resources came from somewhere but as long as it's not from their backyard it doesn't count as environmental vandalism.

Not to mention visual polution.....nothing worse than looking out over a beautiful view only to see a sea of bright orange and purple tents down in the vally with little brightly coloured insects trudging up and down the hills!!!! :eek:

Snufkin

30-05-2006, 18:30

Pablo

30-05-2006, 19:03

I can't subscribe to this philosophy. I know it's a matter of symantics, but I do take. I take wood and edible plants for example (only if I need them and I will actually use them). Basically, I'll take what I need...but only what I need.

But I like to think I leave more than I take. If I take a branch (I rarely do this) I will attempt to replant any off cuts I don't use. I like to think that I am entitled to do this (I can see eyebrows raising now) as I am actually part of nature as much as any animal who frequent the woods. But I make sure I reciprocate in my own way by trying to replace what I use and not letting the resources in one area to be depleted. If I frequent a certain area regularly, I won't use anything from that area.

If everybody did this (I hear you say) there would be nothing left. But not everybody does. There's good and bad in all groups (ramblers; bushcrafters, campers, mountaineers.) We all have one thing in common and that's the enjoyment of the outdoors and there's nothing wrong with this as long as we follow our own codes (I suppose loosely based on the countryside code).

Do I leave rubbish? The answer is no. Do I leave footprints? Of course I do, but I won't stomp over a bunch of wildflowers. Do I take pictures? Yup. Do I take anything else? Yes I do...but I'll do my best to replace in some way what I use.

Pablo.

redcollective

30-05-2006, 19:27

Not to mention visual polution.....nothing worse than looking out over a beautiful view only to see a sea of bright orange and purple tents down in the vally with little brightly coloured insects trudging up and down the hills!!!! :eek:

Yes damn those campers and walkers spending hundreds of millions of tourist pounds in rural areas, if only the countryside could be reserved for the few, preferably wearing tweed and mutton chops and calling each other 'old boy'. :D

Back on topic - I agree with the minimal impact ethos - nothing worse than a bag of dog-mess bundled up and then thoughtfully hung in a tree for later - much later - how about NEVER! And then there's the time I was coming home from a 26 mile walk only to see a walker relieving herself against the base of an information point (I guess it looked like a big rock to her, and something to prop herself up against) - Really got my goat - I'd spent a good portion of the day picking up dicarded sweet rappers - but mostly because the party she was with had the gall to display their regional rambler's badges and as a card carrying Rambler myself I was insensed! Gosh that turned into a rant didn't it. My apologies. :o Don't get me started on 4WDs. ;)

There's one thing I do do, which might not exactly fit the minimal impact ethos. I quite often return home from my daily walks in the woods with a few interesting leaves in my pockets (to identify when I get home to my books). Hmmm.

stovie

31-05-2006, 09:29

I take firewood, but return the ash to the earth...Below is a before and after...It was a fairly large fire, but I feel the impact is minimal on leaving...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/stovie/bushcraftscouts6.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/stovie/bushcraftscouts20.jpg

Wayland

31-05-2006, 09:45

Question inspired by meeting someone who is currently engaged in such interesting activities as kicking over cairns and turning rocks over so that scorches etc. cannot be seen. Both "evils" he blames on "people like me" who cannot follow the mantra above....

I hope you pointed out that some of those cairns he likes kicking over could be prehistoric in origin.

As has been pointed out we live in a man made landscape and without human intervention it would not be what we all love and enjoy today.

The most usual trace I leave is the removal of rubbish left by other visitors. :censored:

Klenchblaize

31-05-2006, 09:45

Respectfuly clean indeed but woudn't it be nice to have been able to "take" something away with that fine bow of yours Stovie?

Cheers!

stovie

31-05-2006, 10:46

Respectfuly clean indeed but woudn't it be nice to have been able to "take" something away with that fine bow of yours Stovie?

Cheers!

I couldn't possibly comment ;)

beach bum

31-05-2006, 12:45

It's been my sig line since I got here :) One does what one can but even your presence in the outdoors has to have some effect, even if it's only your carbon emissons getting there.

My big thing is the beach :rolleyes: there's always more drift wood than anyone could ever want. Along with the drift wood comes poly rope ,netting ,plastic bottles etc., the overall effect I have on the beach is minimal when compared with all the gargage that gets thrown up on every tide. :p

Last year I went up Pen-Y-Fan for the first time in decades, what was a sheep trail forty years ago is now a ditch as deep as my armpits with all the erosion from the walkers, and that can only bode ill for the future. It was also as busy as the High Street with dozens upon dozens of walkers out there.

We all have to examine our own actions of cause and effect, and do the best you can, I'll still have it as my sig line though :D

regards

beach bum

PhilParry

31-05-2006, 13:02

Variation on a theme....

:D Take only waterproofs....leave only (buried) pooh....!!! :D

Ahem....I never admitted to being a poet!! :lmao:

Seriously, I went for a wonder yesterday in our local woods and couldn't believe the amount of litter...I could have easily filled up a bin liner. In fact, I'll be up there later in the week to do just that! :cussing: :rant: :cussing:

Phil

redcollective

31-05-2006, 13:14

That's great idea phil, how about one day a year (lets not get too ambitious) when BCUK visitors solemly vow to take a bin liner out for a walk and collect rubbish? What do you reckon folks? I'd be up for it (already do a little bit here and there anyway)

Back in Aus there is a national 'clean up australia day' andit's very popular.

Fluxus

31-05-2006, 13:29

great idea RC, national clean up the woods day. need welders mitts for nasty sharp things. lets pick a date!
Flux

Pablo

31-05-2006, 13:38

Well up for the litter day... :You_Rock_ although I do this anyway. Anyone near a water-way could possibly look for anglers hooks and line as well.

Pablo

Seagull

31-05-2006, 13:49

Phil, whilst on your litter foray ,be prepared for some really weird looks and gormless questions, from the joe-public.

I,ve learned that a lot of folk (when you do tell ,em what youre doing), seem , quite wrongly, to get the hump. As though they were under suss, which they aint, they asked!

Another one, far too frequent, is clearly wonderment , when nature/somebody else/ woodland trust, will clear up.
Hand on heart, I gotta say that my fingers twitch when I hear this one

Take my hat off to you.

At the days end, youre satisfied ,having done a good deed.

Ceeg

redcollective

31-05-2006, 14:11

Seagull

31-05-2006, 15:36

This might get people thinking at least:

http://www.cleanup.com.au/

There's a pin-off 'Clean up the world' event which I didn't know about - seems focussed in the southern hemisphere/Asia at the moment but our friends in France and Spain appear to be ahead of us.

http://www.cleanup.com.au/Main.asp?Requesttype=Doc&DocID=331&CatID=4

Date appears to be the weekend of the 16th to 18th of September. So if anyone asks - you can say "I'm cleaning up the world" - now that won't get you any strange looks LOL

You can get information here: http://www.cleanup.com.au/Main.asp?Requesttype=Doc&DocID=211&CatID=55

But before anyone decides to be an organiser remember you probably need permission to remove rubbish from someone else's property - strange as that may seem.

Now thats a damn good ,heads-up type of a post.
For sure I will be going with that one.

Pity about the last sentence.

There would just have to be something, wouldn,t there now. :banghead:
Stifle the brains, seems the order of the day.

Who was it , that said, " The saddest thing about life, is what dies in a man, while he lives"

Rant over: you have the floor.

Ceeg

black_kissa

31-05-2006, 19:13

Phil, whilst on your litter foray ,be prepared for some really weird looks and gormless questions, from the joe-public.

But also be prepared for happy faces, because there are a lot of people who see what should be done but don't do it.

I found this out while I was removing pushpins, nails and such from trees along the main road in town - many people stopped aind said they were happy to see someone do that.
In turn, it made me realize how many people just don't know where to start cleaning up our mess... they just need a little support and encouragement :-)
So I'm happy to read about the Cleanup initiative!

Live and Love,
Anneke

Wayne

31-05-2006, 19:28

I regularly go out armed with bin bags and gloves to collect rubbish. I dont mind the coke cans and other assorted litter. What really bugs me is the mount of dog Sxxt in plastic bags thrown into bushes.

I have 2 dogs bit still find this disgusting. Pick up and carry it out to a proper bin.

Les Marshall

31-05-2006, 19:50

I agree with Wayne about the dog do do's, I went to Kingleyvale yesterday and today and was disgusted to find the path that leads up to the vale absolutely littered with dog mess. I do not blame the dog, I blame the owner.

I think the original phrase was "Take away only memories and leave only foot prints", I'm not certain, but I think this was originated by native American's to protect their traditional campsites and may well originate from the dawn of time.

I too, take all my rubbish home with me and when I cook, I try to use a camp stove, yes, I know it has an impact on the ozone, but if I do not need to light a wood fire, why do so? I know I can light a fire if I really have to and do so from time to time to demonstrate to people who ask me to show them how.

No matter what we do in the wild, we will have some sort of an impact on environment, it's just knowing how to keep it to a minimum.

Ben Trout

31-05-2006, 22:50

I'm a keen walker and find the amount of litter in a lot of areas quite worrying. Surely most people walk for a love of the outdoors, so why the lack of respect? I rarely finish a walk without a pocketful of other peoples rubbish. Whatever outdoor activity I am involved with, I try to minimise my impact on the environment and landscape. You guys and girls are good company, thanks.

falling rain

01-06-2006, 09:25

'Take only photographs leave only footprints'
I saw this irritating phrase written. Someone had written this in permanent marker pen on a wooden bridge out in the countryside. :confused: I can't explain why but that saying annoys me. :dunno: Although I do agree with the ethos

Great Pebble

01-06-2006, 09:50

If I saw it scrawled on anything it would annoy me too....

Clean Up The World sounds like a do-er

redcollective

01-06-2006, 12:00

Re this cleanup the world idea - any West Yorkshire based folk interested in throwing a day at cleaning up a public space (pref woodland), somewhere in west yorkshire - please PM me.

The Cleanup the world thing runs the weekend of 15-17th September.

Siecroz

01-06-2006, 13:10

A Friend and I went up Tryfan (Mountain in North Wales) over this weekend. As we were scrambling back down the slopes we came across a half empty bottle of mineral water that some dis-respectful muppet had deposited in a hollow between some rocks and left there. So I video'd my mate reaching down, and removing it .. and the explicit disgust that he displayed :censored:

The following day we Wild Camped above Dolgarrog near to Coety Reservoir.. Whislt walking there over the mountains, we were shocked and appauled at just how much litter we found either wedged into rocks by rivers, or carelessly dropped into reed beds on open marshland.

When we got home 2 days later... we were unpacking the boot to find the mineral water bottle that we had not yet found a bin for ... D'OH!

Might just be the way I have been trained not to leave anything that your "Enemies" might use to track you and gain intelligence from... but something about seeing a Crisp Packet floating in a fresh water mountain pool really winds me up!!!,, :aargh4:

As always... I took lots of photo's... but did the routine litter sweep and placing mother nature back the way she was when I arrived to ensure that she will welcome us back with open arms the next time.

:notworthy

redcollective

01-06-2006, 14:08

All I can say folks is no matter how much it irks you to pick up other peoples garbage - keep doing it! :You_Rock_

anthonyyy

01-06-2006, 14:28

I’m sure nobody here litters the countryside and I applaud those who pick up other people’s rubbish*. However, do bear in mind that if you travel by car (as I do) you are probably doing more damage to the environment than the odd crisp packet.

Speaking of collecting rubbish: I came across a chap once picking up rubbish at a riverside walk. He had a money collection box and a sign stating “today’s cleanup is in aid of guide dogs for the blind”

demographic

02-06-2006, 18:03

What about cutting up all the deadwood for campfires and therefore ruining the habitat of fungi and many insects, birds, places for adders to hide underneath?

I assume all those Gransfors are not for self defence :)

redcollective

03-06-2006, 01:51

Right, well I've got my local councillor interested in the idea of cleaning up somewhere for Cleanup the World Weekend. Any West Yorkshire/leeds folk interested? She can't promise anything of course but has suggested I think of a location and had offered to set up a meeting with a contact. That's a lot better than a 'thankyou' letter.

Imagine the possibilities... a little bit of work.... stop for a brew...another bit of work... stop for another brew!

Anybody know of a public woodland in the Leeds area that could benefit from a cleanup?