View Full Version : Training Courses
Hello to anyone out there!
I'm looking for information about companies that can do bushcraft training courses. I know about Woodlore, having attended their Tracking course and narrowly missing getting on the Essential Bushcraft course that starts next week; and there's mention of one in the Lake District elsewhere on this site.
What companies are there out there, and what do they offer? Any information will be gratefully accepted.
Womble
hi
the one in the lake district is called woodsmoke
See: www.woodsmoke.uk.com
its run by Ben Mcnutt and lisa (if you have been on a woodlore course you may have met them, Ben used to be a head instructor there)
in my opinion they are one of the best schools around
Hope that helps
Stuart
Thanks Stuart, I am looking at the site now.
John
Also see :
http://www.woodsmoke.uk.com/homepage.htm
http://www.bisonbushcraft.co.uk/
http://www.survivalschool.co.uk/main1.htm
All run some very good courses in some stunning locations.
Have fun.... there are loads more... try doing a search at http://google.co.uk you may even find something in your area :-)
Ed
I'm off on a Bison course this weekend - they're probably about as much in John's area as mine.
ooops... that first link should have been http://www.woodcraft-school.co.uk/ the woodsmoke link has already been posted. :roll:
Ed
Thanks to all who have responded - and may yet respond - here. I've still a lot to learn (and then pass on to others), and all these people willing to teach me...
I've got some fun choices to make!
There's also Woodlore, well worth a look
acw_akkermans
06-10-2003, 11:52
And Wild-Live for people in Northern ireland...
(hahaha, a bit cheekey to put forward your own school) :oops:
http://www.wild-liveschool.com.
I teach bushcraft from the Tom brown Jr. direction. (http://www.trackerschool.com)
Mate, your the only one in NI so no problem!
Hi Guys
I'm thinking about signing up for the UK Survival School Jungle course/expedition 2004 - just wandering what the experts think?
Has anyone done this trip before?
They have invited me down to meet them for a day next week so looking forward to that.
Check it out:
www.uksurvivalschool.co.uk/borneo.htm
www.uksurvivalschool.co.uk/news.htm
www.uksurvivalschool.co.uk/pictures/gallerypgp.htm
Regards
Paul :-D
i have done two courses with http://www.wildwise.co.uk/index.html
that are really good, and i lurnt a lot, one was on dartmoor which was grate and the other was at Bridge Farm near Chulmleigh, Devon its a really grate spot, and Chris and the other instructors are grate too, i would defo recomend it!!
Hi all, The Woodcraft winter course as mentioned on the main news page says "first course of it's kind " - do they mean the first time they have done this or that no other school has done it?
Forgive me, but on my recent research I came across at least three schools where this type of course is already available and tried and tested with the pics to prove it, and in Scotland.
Regards :-?
Paul Mac
Oh and forgot to add;
If you check their webpage to this course it has a picture of the Matterhorn on it - since when was this in Scotland?
I would also only accept being taught crampon and ice axe use by a minimum qualified mic or mia person - those things are lethel used wrongly.
I find the whole presentation a bit misleading but nevermind
Check it out www.woodcraft-school.co.uk/winter-skills.
Regards
Paul :-? (still confused)
Caron Buckingham
12-12-2003, 18:33
In regard to the comments made about our Winter Skills course I feel compelled to reply. At Woodcraft School we believe that the formula for the running of our courses i.e. blending outdoor living with an understanding of the natural world places uniqueness on all of our courses and the Winter Skills is no exception.
Maybe the name of our course is misleading but it is neither a traditional mountaineering skills course nor a pure survival course and from this point of view it is, we believe unique and new. We have no intention of moving into the realms of such traditional outdoor pursuits because if one wants to learn mountaineering skills there are a number of very capable companies out there.
As far as the photo on our website is concerned, we make no secret of the fact that we haven’t run this course before and so declined to fake pictures of imaginary students on imaginary courses. The picture is indeed of the Matterhorn which we placed up there partly for the reason already mentioned and partly to demonstrate the range of experience our instructional staff possess.
Concerning our clients safety, when putting any course together our first consideration is risk assessment and insurance. We draw on instructors from all disciplines including mountaineering; first aid, canoeing and 4x4 driving to complement our expertise in bushcraft and nature awareness, to ensure our clients are given the very best education delivered in a framework of safety. On another level if we did otherwise our insurance would be invalid. The ice axe and crampon work which, incidentally, is only a small part of the course will be taught by staff qualified to the correct standard. Only WML and MICS are qualified to teach such equipment use as a safety feature. To correct paulmacs comment, I believe I am correct in saying that an MIA is only qualified to teach multipitch rock climbing and SUMMER mountaineering only?
I hope this clarifies what is on offer -feel free to contact us if you wish to know more.
Caron Buckingham
Hi Caron
Thankyou for taking the time to try to clear up the issues i mentioned previously, please check the following www.ami.org.uk which points out the differant mountain instructor qualifications and scope of teaching/training they are permitted to deliver.
In short you are right about the MIA ( MOUNTAIN INSTRUCTOR AWARD)as a summer instructors level but you are wrong that WML( WINTER MOUNTAIN LEADER) is qaulified to teach winter technical skills such as crampon and ice axe use, so that leaves only the MIC (MOUNTAIN INSTRUCTOR CERTIFICATE) holder falling into the category of who i would learn the skills from - but i'm only the general public who would expect companies delivering this training to know this.
A list of qualified persons to do this are found on www.bmg.org.uk, i learnt the above skills at Glenmore lodge about 10 yaers ago and the instructors were this level and excellent, they teach WML's.
On your presentation it states:
"...you will also be working with ice axe, crampons...." together with a lovely mountain picture, to mention such equipment with such a presentation says to me you will be using it in a mountain environment in the winter and so therfore A WML HOLDER STILL DOES NOT MAKE THE GRADE THEY ARE ONLY QAULIFIED TO LEAD. NOT TEACH - 2 DIFFERANT THINGS
As for the explanation to the picture, why not use the pic of Scotland that you dislpay on another page in its place or does that not create such a good focal point - don't forget some people may think your Matterhorn pic is actually the location they are going to,if having never been to either.
You are obvouisly passionate about what you do but having researched at least a dozen companies in the last months i feel you are not unique as most are teaching with the same outlook and aims that you mention but like all business everyone is trying to be differant but from an outsider there are obvious similarities between the companiesand training courses.
I noticed on another of your pages (INSTRUCTORS COURSE) you state ".. this course aims to produce the first wave of properly trained instructors of this very large and diverse subject..." - does this mean everyone else who is working in the industry is not worth the public spending money on, funny how the Plumpton College version of this is much differant and doesn't take such a 'cheap' swipe at the other companies in this manner.
I think on this occasion you have been caught out playing with words (and pictures) and the paying public. :oops:
Many thanks
Regards
Paul Mac
Caron Buckingham
13-12-2003, 19:05
Dear Paulmac
I don’t wish to dwell too much on what, for reasons best known to you is turning into an attack on our company. Firstly we have been assured by the instructors we are using for the ice axe/crampon part of the course that they are qualified to teach the aspects of this course we are using them for.
Regarding the instructors course and (my, you have been busy with your research), there is a growing wave of people wanting to enter the industry as instructors. Many bushcraft/survival schools are concerned to keep high standards and it is with many of these we have very good working relationships (and surprise, surprise- mutual respect). They have earned their spurs under other instructors/schools or through the military or in some other usually arduous way and are very, very capable.
In short they have already gained their experience and ability to instruct and this is a great way into the industry because then they have an obvious pedigree for the public to see. The Plumpton course is another; it gives a recognised outdoor leadership qualification, a recognised qualification in woodcraft skills and a college certificate for bushcraft instruction.
Don’t you think if you can’t get a job with another school or haven’t come from the military this would be a reasonable starting point? As far as we are aware, outside the military there is currently no other qualification of this type. But and I must emphasise this-IT DOESN'T REPLACE EXPERIENCE AND ABILITY GAINED ELSEWHERE and to imply that it does is just a very naïve and ridiculous statement to make.
You are right in saying that I am passionate about what we do but at the same time it is our livelihood so to imply we have deceived anyone is quite frankly damaging. The public is quite capable of making up their own mind about what school they want to attend (or re-attend in our case).
You also seem very upset for some reason about our choice of picture and state the text is confusing. We also mention in our course description that we will be exploring the uses of fire. Do you think this means we will be trying to light fires on the top of the Matterhorn? Perhaps, and only if qualified to do so, by rubbing ice axes together?
To put your mind at rest and despite the photo’s, I can assure you with hand on heart that all our clients already booked on the course have definitely got flights to Scotland and not Europe!
Regards
Caron
Hi Caron, There was never any attack on your company,if you delve further at my posts on this site your not the only company/course i'm trying to get the best info on, but your correct, the public do make up their own mind and all i'm trying to acheive is some answers from a forum that accomadates the topic i would like to learn about, you'll find some much more contraversial issues in this forum without people responding in a facetious manner.
You seem to be trying to justify some issues i never even raised and with that, some points remain unanswered - how do you handle difficult self minded people on the courses.
Someone on this site somewhere pointed out that "as we're the ones spending our hard earned money..." It is hard earned and i for one don't want to waste it, i feel to find out about things is to question the facts that people offer - lets face it, the companies presenting testimonials about themselves are not going to print a letter of complaint from a client . Theres no need to be upset or to be so threatening just because someone reads between the lines of how you present something and asks or points out what appears a bit misleading, we do have the right to ask and seeing that this course is featured on this main site (i thought it was a neutral site)
that is all i'm doing, but thanks for taking the time to respond, it proves this site works in some ways, my main concern is us two "saddos" throwing hand bags at each other on a saturday night.
Regards,
Paul "meticulous " Mac
From the BMC web site.
Winter Mountain Leader Award - ML(W)
This scheme trains and assesses people in the skills required for the leadership of hillwalking parties in winter conditions. The Scottish Mountain Leader Training Board administers this award although it is valid throughout the UK and Ireland.
Mountain Instructor Certificate - MIC
This scheme trains and assesses people in the skills required for the instruction of mountaineering, both summer and winter, including snow, rock and ice climbing. This award is valid throughout the UK and Ireland.
Both are difficult qualifictions to achieve but if some one was going to teach me the correct use of crampons and an Ice Axe I'd want it to be an MIC qualified instructor.
But.....
Hey lets not argue.
Woodcraft: Nice website!
Paulmac: Hope you find your course!
Cheers
John
"common sense and courtesy prevails"
Thanks John - I'm getting there.
Paul :-D
I'm sorry, paulmac, but it did appear that you were making a personal attack on Woodcraft. For what its worth I have been on a fair few bushcraft courses in my time with many different schools including three courses with Woodcraft. I certainly feel able to make a comment about their courses - the content and quality of instruction was first class, the instructors I encountered were well qualified and displayed a wealth of experience and knowledge in their field of expertise, I would highly recommend them as one of the more competent bushcraft schools in the UK. Hope thats helpful.
Hi Paulmac
The jargon used by mountaineering people takes some time to figure out. Somtimes they use an ordinary sounding phrase and give it a specific meaning. But they don't explain that to joe public. Reading this thread I think that these phrases have made things confusing. I have a foot in both camps so maybe I can help. :-D
The difference between the qualifications is a little confusing. To try and clarify things.
Mountain Leaders take people out walking, anywhere that you do not need to use your hands for assistance.
When you need to take your hands out of your pockets to scramble or you need to use ropes you need a Mountain Instructor.
Mountain Leaders do walking
Mountain Instructors do walking and climbing
There are summer and winter versions of both the above.
The phrase "technical skills" in this situation means climbing skills. Crampons and Ice axes are not just used when climbing. They are basic safety equipment used by mountain walkers, this use is not classed as "technical".
Most accidents start from a simple slip while walking. To be taken out walking in winter conditions without ice axe and crampons would be asking for trouble. People would get hurt. That long gentle slope in summer turns into the Cresta Run in icy conditions, wearing crampons you can just walk up it.
you are wrong that WML( WINTER MOUNTAIN LEADER) is qaulified to teach winter technical skills such as crampon and ice axe use, so that leaves only the MIC (MOUNTAIN INSTRUCTOR CERTIFICATE) holder falling into the category of who i would learn the skills from – Mac
Walking in crampons is not “technical”. Practising how to stop a slide using your ice axe is not “technical”. WML and MIC are both qualified to teach crampon and ice axe
therfore A WML HOLDER STILL DOES NOT MAKE THE GRADE THEY ARE ONLY QAULIFIED TO LEAD. NOT TEACH - 2 DIFFERANT THINGS Paul Mac
The term LEADER is just a label, not a helpful one but just a label. Mountain Leaders do teach, they teach navigation, they teach camping skills, they teach about weather prediction, and winter mountain leaders teach ice axe and crampon technique.
i learnt the above skills at Glenmore lodge about 10 yaers ago and the instructors were this level and excellent, they teach WML's. Mac
Glenmore lodge is the National mountaineering school for Scotland, they have the highest levels of qualification, but someone who is “only” a Winter Mountain Leader is still a highly qualified, highly competent person. There are many highly competent mountain walkers around, of those some choose to train to be summer mountain leaders. Only a few then go on to train as winter mountain leaders, there are not many around.
I can't see roped climbing being part of a bushcraft course so a Winter Mountain Leader would be idealy qualified.
I hope this helps sort out some of the jargon found in the climbing / walking fraternity. And you thought it was only bushcraft that had a language all of its own. :-D
Jon
Hi guys
Thanks for all your responses,
Let's get one issue clear:
I NEVER QUESTIONED THE WOODCRAFTS' EXPERTISE - I questioned the presentation of words and pictures on some of their webpages, because, as an outsider or newcomer to the bushcraft world (with albeit over 20 years exstensive mountain environment experience and knowledge - some of which i have already mentioned on this forum) On my research for a good course to go on, I honestly did feel their were some misleading words and pictures on the above and other companies websites come to that matter, and began to think twice about approaching some companies and just sticking with the mountaineerig outfits I know.
I came across this forum-site(BCUK), which i thought, perhaps quite naively i could raise issues about concerns i made in my research - i never expected to be accused of making personal attacks for the above issue, as i was impressed with the way Natural Pathways responded to one chaps comments about their Israel course and other things in the "wanted" threads.
However, it seems some people are legitimate targets, ie, Ray Mears' weight, Survival Schools videos, Mike Jarmains lectures and some people are not. I never for one minute expected the "sarcastic slaughter" i received from the company itself.
I am a systems analyst for the defence industry ( or engineer for short ) and it is in my nature" to pull things apart" - I know i can be difficult but thats because i have a desire to get high standards in everthing i do, but perhaps Bushcraft is a langauge i would struggle to learn, if my inquisitive nature was to be met in this manner by the companies i approach and question or even dare to criticize.
I was due to meet one particular uk based survival school this coming week about something i have allways wanted to do ( go to a jungle ) but i think i'll give it a miss :-( and stick with the mountaineering companies i know and who coincidently every time i've been taught any form of "winter equipment" skill it has been delivered by an MIC holder.
With genuine good intentions,
Happy bushcrafting
Paul Mac
Its a pity you seem to have been put off Bushcraft, there are some very reputable schools out there including Woodcraft, we are trying to encourage everyone to work together for the benefit of all (I'm not particularly a fan of forums for this very reason as I don't necessarilly find them always positive) which is why we put on the Wilderness Gathering this year, you could always come on next years Gathering which would give you the opportunity to meet a lot of the bushcraft schools and try some of the taster courses. To some extent we have to trust that what is portrayed in the brochures is delivered on the courses, I think you'll find the standard is generally high though.
ditchfield
14-12-2003, 19:33
Don't be put off bushcraft.
Isn't it understandable that people try to defend their livelyhoods.
Stick with it
C_Claycomb
15-12-2003, 13:02
Paul,
Please don't be put off bushcraft! :-D
I have read through this post and no one has said anything NEARLY as rude about each other as they do on some sites. Worse gets said on British Blades and for a real set too, try the Leatherwall where the US trad-bowhunters play! They really do go in for slaughter, sarcastic and otherwise. :AR15firin :f: This wasn't even close!! LOL :lol:
Writing on forums can take a thick skin sometimes, and the willingness to step back. People read the words you write and sometimes put a tone to them that wasn't intended, things can get a little out of hand that way :roll: People tend to form opinions from what you write NOW, not everybody will read back to find out what a great person you really are.
In any case. Paul, Caron, :nono: PLAY NICE! And if you can't, then carry on in private! :sword:
Chris
Thanks C, Ditchfield, Dominic & all who pm'd me
I won't be too put off - thanks for your comments and support.
Regards,
Paul Mac :-D
mmmeeeeeeooooooooowwwwwww :evil:
as this is the first time i have ever seen an argument on this site i thought i would read though and find out what could possably have started such a conflict in what is normaly a polite and relaxed bushcraft comunity
it starts with:
Hi all, The Woodcraft winter course as mentioned on the main news page says "first course of it's kind " - do they mean the first time they have done this or that no other school has done it?
Forgive me, but on my recent research I came across at least three schools where this type of course is already available and tried and tested with the pics to prove it, and in Scotland.
to me (and i state that this is only my opinion) this is nothing more than a harmless question: do they mean the first time they have done this or that no other school has done it?
followed by his opinion: on my recent research I came across at least three schools where this type of course is already available and tried and tested with the pics to prove it, and in Scotland.
both of which were in order and are exactly what this site is designed for, getting information and giving opinions
so on to the second part:
Oh and forgot to add;
If you check their webpage to this course it has a picture of the Matterhorn on it - since when was this in Scotland?
I would also only accept being taught crampon and ice axe use by a minimum qualified mic or mia person - those things are lethel used wrongly.
I find the whole presentation a bit misleading but nevermind
Check it out www.woodcraft-school.co.uk/winter-skills.
Regards
Paul :-? (still confused)
This is a little different, paul points out an misleading inaccuracy in the website, a perfectly valid one I think
the course description only has one picture and it is indeed a picture of the matterhorn
It would have been very easy for woodcraft to have used a picture of Scotland
there is no argument that selling a trip to one place whilst by using a picture of different more impressive place as an advertiment is wrong
this in fact contravenes the advertising standards regulations which states amongst may other regulations relevant to this topic:
TRUTHFULNESS
7.1 No marketing communication should mislead, or be likely to mislead, by inaccuracy, ambiguity, exaggeration, omission or otherwise.
the response from Caron to this post is very defensive, this is understandable from somone who is passionate and protective over their company
however carons lack of tact and Professionalism in dealing with a potential customers complaint especially the sarcasm in the following posts:
"my, you have been busy with your research", "and surprise, surprise- mutual respect", "trying to light fires on the top of the Matterhorn? Perhaps, and only if qualified to do so, by rubbing ice axes together?"
has done far more to damage the image of her company in the public eye than the original post could ever have done
the company would look far better if Carons response had been one thanking paul for his input and confirming that woodcraft would be swapping the picture for one of the area they intended to use
whilst stating that woodcrafts instructors were properly qualified to teach winter skills
Paul was wrong when he stated in his later posts that the WML qualification was not appropriate for this course and you were well within your rights to point this out, however in his original post he did not say the your instructors were not qualified he said:
"I would also only accept being taught crampon and ice axe use by a minimum qualified mic"
I think he was a little confused by the jargon used in mountaineering and was just stating his preference for a more highly qualified instructor
I believe this whole argument was unnecessary, i don’t think paul meant to seriously discredit woodcraft and i think Caron was just being overly protective of an industry she loves
Paul don't be put off by this, misunderstandings happen in every gathering of people and can always be resolved
Caron try not to take customers complains to heart, look at each one as information on how to improve and a chance to demonstrate your companies professionalism, remember the complaint you e-mailed me at kellam knives? look back at my reply, I have made the alterations you suggested and i am thankful that you contacted me, for every customer that complains there is 20 thinking the same thing but not telling you, imagine what you would think of my company if i had responded the way you did here and had not made any alterations?
woodcraft is a fine company who's quality of instructors is without question
many companies are scared of a site where people can complain and air their opinions in public, but for the company who knows how to use these complaints and requests as a way to improve, its just another tool for advertising
if somone complains fix it and let people know you have listened and they will be impressed
if somone says your great, thank them in public
this site is a great resource for a company that knows how to use it
for their benifit
now my turn to make a complaint!!
Please can we have a spell checker on this site please writting long posts is hell
:-D
come on guys this site is for all of us and it will benifit us all if we dont destroy it though fear of our customers real feelings and arguments about trivial things
C_Claycomb
16-12-2003, 09:21
Stuart, :You_Rock_ :notworthy
Very eloquently put!
Spell checker? I cheat, I paste from Word!
I use IESpell (www.iespell.com) for Internet Explorer - or you can use www.spellcheck.net. :-D They both keep me looking good!
Spell checker? I cheat, I paste from Word!
theknight
16-12-2003, 12:27
Dear Stuart.
Firstly, you are right, we do need a spelt chequer...............
I must say that I disagree with you on your comments.
This site has been an inspiration to me and to many others and long may it continue but it will only do that if it doesn’t eat it’s self alive. The work that the administrator and all the moderators must have to do to keep this site working is admirable and if I were them I am appalled how this thread has work out. This site is a clean and respectable site.
If I was the survival school I would want some answers from Paul Mac;
1. Why didn’t he email them and ask directly about his concerns, I have done this in the past with companies this way your questions are answered fully and not open to everyone else’s opinion and that way I am being professional.
2. They are many things in business that happen (and I have seen so many inaccuracies that you wouldn’t believe) the website designer may have put the wrong picture for a start and not checked with anyone. So, again, why not a gentle nudge if he was that concerned to the school.
3. Is everyone now who runs a business so petrified in case they are in the firing line that they won’t get involved with this site just in case it happens to them.
Stuart you may think this site is able to carry peoples opinions, I on the other hand disagree. I gain no pleasure from any individual knocking another especially if it is a school/ business who, and lets face it, have one hand tied behind their back, however they try to defend themselves they will be judge by it, unfairly.
For me I wish this hadn’t happened but it has and it isn’t the end of the world, people can shake hands you know.
I would advise that Paul Mac signs onto one of their course and would advise that Caron accepts him and get on with what we all love doing.
I have been wanting to do a survival course for a while now and guess where I am going, as through this I have had a good look at their courses and I will be booking on at least one!!.................just need a good knife.............anybody recommend a good company?..............
TK
I think we need a new statistic on the front page of the forum.
We have Max users on line, total members etc.
How about "Minimum number of posts to fill a page" :o):
Hi TK
You are indeed right that Paul should have contacted woodcraft and talked them privately and I certainly understand that inaccuracys are made which are no fault of the company involved (how many times has somone rung me up and pointed out real errors on my site? :oops: )
I think its a shame that this one slipped passed the moderators and got out of control but a suppose it had to happen sooner or later, they work very hard to maitain this site but the have their own lives too and can't sit at the computer 24hrs a day, some things will get past them
how many times do you think this has almost happened in the past and the moderators have swiftly delt with it? we only see it when it goes wrong
The main point I was trying to make was that even when this does happen a proffesional reply from the company will make them look good where as a defensive approch and alowing themselves to be drawn into a sarcastic mud slinging match will make them look very bad
companys need not be afraid of people publicly complaining about them in a forum where they can reply and be seen to be dealing which there coustomers complaints
what they should be worried about is people privately complaining to their freinds (who pass it on the their freinds and so forth) where the company involved does not even know there is a problem and cannot defend itself or fix the problem
the only people who should be afraid of a public watch dog or open forum are those would are trying diliberately to rip people off
every company who is genueinly offering a good service should not be worried as all thoese people who they have offered a good service too will argue in their corner if somone diliberatly trys to mislead the public
just as you are arguing in support of woodcraft due to the good service they have provided you
and if the complaint is valid then they can reply and fix the problem and be seen by the public to be responsable
If one person makes a complaint that is his opinion and could be argued either way then a company can ask for the opinion of the public and by the response decide what the general public opinion is, you cant buy
market research like that!
I can use this site to ask people what they think of my products and service and get a responce from the public that lets me know what they are thinking, I can talk to all my customers when ever I like in public
and people can see i have nothing to hide
I Think thats Great :-D
And if some unsavory person trys to discredit my company for their own gain I know that all my happy coustomers will post their opinion
and if their not happy........ then i will know and I can start improving the problem
I can even use the news section of this site to let the public know when i am bringing out a new product, and it costs me nothing!!
I whole heartedly agree with you TK that the public should contact people privately and discuss their problems
but even when they do say it in public its no problem to a company who genuinly wants to improve its service
and if people didnt say it in public then the public would not be warned of the people out there who are trying to rip them off
I think if a carry on i'll just be repeating myself, I'm sure that everyone gets the point I'm trying to make, though you are of course free to disagree :roll:
lets all just enjoy this site
i'll get off my soap box now
:uu:
On the knife front I would recomend you contact somone you know Like Caron who has experiance in this area and ask her opinon on a good knife