View Full Version : New School's on the block so to speak
theknight
24-02-2004, 20:23
Hi Guys
Are these new School's on the block so to speak? I put ' survival schools' into google and these I haven't seen before.
http://www.local-community-web.com/nature/tracker-scout/tracker-scout-home.htm
http://www.backwoodsurvival.co.uk/
http://www.adventure-school.co.uk/
Cheers
TK
Hello
Were do they all come from - I think everyone interested in the topic knows who the main outfits are, and this past twelve months has seen everyman and his dog set up a survival school in some shape or form it's getting frightening to think that newcomers to the subject will struggle to know who the good guys are.
I've done quite a few courses at differant schools and learnt the difference the hard way, some I will go back to tommorow but some were a complete waste of everyones time and money, and now my rule of thumb to which schools I go back to is simple:
Full time instructors with a good balanced history of running courses.
Let's face it, if some guys fitting the phone or washing machine (no disrespect to engineers or plumbers) in my house during the week and there he is at weekend running a survival course i'm on, i'm not sure how serious i'd take him.
1.SEAT have been around for a while - part time and scout base type.
2.Backwoods - brand new but the guy has some history at Breakaway
3.Never heard of it or the guy in it and some of the info scares the life out of me
- i'll not be funding his trips to the states.
The industry must have by now at least 30 outfits in the uk. Some I wouldn't touch with a barge pole but there are one or two very good outfits out there - like anything else in life really.
Oh! This is just my opinion!
Maxmountains
Hi all
When did you first come across the Tom Brown related site TK ?
As some people are aware - i've been researching the uk schools and courses over the past 6 months or so and this is the first time i've seen this one. :-?
I have pointed out company website presentation and what they say in the past on this forum so I can also hear what your saying here Max - although you do seem to have quite a tight criterea on the schools you go back to, even I know the number of full time instructors in the UK are low - but I think you've made a good point.
I would add this thought also:
If someone has done a total of 15 weekend courses over a period of 10 years - have they got 10 years experience or 30 days?
Debatable.
Chris - is there a prize for guessing who the 2 instructors are?
Regards
Paul
Hello guys
There was one guy called Chris on a Woodlore course I did, (2000) was that you?
Some good comments above guys, I like the 30 days - 10 years point Paul,
Very debatable.
Max
Depends what else they did ... classes are only part of it.
I would add this thought also:
If someone has done a total of 15 weekend courses over a period of 10 years - have they got 10 years experience or 30 days?
Adi said :Depends what else they did ... classes are only part of it.
.................fitting telephones and washhing machines probably :-D
cheers chris, i definatly got my year right, great courses though, also sounds like you done a lot with ukss, they were great as well.
Enjoy borneo, some people on here have mentioned about that as well.
Maxmountains
www.bearclawbushcraft.co.uk should be on that list, probably the newest site in the country garys been teaching for a long, long time though
Hello Stuart, thanks for joining in, about the above was it Full time?
Some other ones I came across recently new
www.survivalandsafetyschool.co .uk
www.reddragonsurvival.co.uk this sites been on and off line
Any one else come across these or any other new ones?
Cheers
Max
Stuart wrote:
www.bearclawbushcraft.co.uk should be on that list, probably the newest site in the country garys been teaching for a long time though
Max wrote:
Hello Stuart, thanks for joining in, about the above was it Full time?
Gary used to teach for woodlore and then with woodsmoke
Stuart,
Gary Wale has NEVER worked for Woodsmoke.
He HAS worked for Woodlore (on some courses, for two seasons) as an assistant to Juha Rankinen and myself, when I worked for Woodlore as an Instructor.
Is Gary aware that you are making these statements on his behalf?
It is refreshing to see that forum members like Max and PaulMac are making prudent enquiries, before parting with their hard earned cash. I would encourage others to follow their example.
Best regards,
Ben McNutt.
www.woodsmoke.uk.com
Hi guys
Chris - I've made positive steps towards going on the Borneo Jungle course and spent a day with Ged picking his brains about it before xmas last year, it is now down to getting the time off work so hopefully we'll be on the same trip. I too don't want to hijack this thread so I will PM you about it.
Ben - thanks ever so much for taking the time out to respond to our questions and your comments - speaking to Ged about schools and courses in the UK he was very honest and open with me and never put any one down - he spoke extremely highly about yourself and woodsmoke.
Regards
PaulMac :-D
It is refreshing to see that forum members like Max and PaulMac are making prudent enquiries, before parting with their hard earned cash. I would encourage others to follow their example.
Well said ben. Far too many people opt for schools because they are closer or are a cheaper option. Being an unregulated business, as far as bushcraft qualifications go, there are too many out there with access to a piece of land willing to take your cash. Checking out the school and the instructors credentials before you sign up is a must.
Ed
[quote="Ben"]Stuart,
Is Gary aware that you are making these statements on his behalf?
This may be were Stuart might be reading the signals wrong!
.............................. Gary says on the following thred 13th post down.
"I have worked WITH and been associated WITH Woodsmoke......" http://www.bushcraftuk.co.uk/community/viewtopic.php?t=169&start=20&s id=86c7f9364b653514680a7431138 63150
This might be leading to some confusion on Stuarts part.....I can see how because I interpreted it the same :roll: Perhaps Gary may clarify this himself?
As for credentials of schools and instructors there are three mentioned above that are without doubt amongst the best available, Woodsmoke, UK survival school and Woodlore...... once again thats just my opinion.
maxmountains
OK firstly let me clarify one thing - when I said I had worked and associated with Woodsmoke I meant woodsmoke as being Ben and Lisa not the company and any misconception here is due to laziness on my part. Stuarts comment was due to the fact he meet me when I visited them and acted as a guest instructor (if thats the correct term) but all my professional dealing with them were while working with Woodlore. And I am sure Ben will agree with me on this - thats about as plain as I can put it.
Ok thats that cleared up.
Now seeing as my own abiliites have been brought into question I will go further as to clarify things here too, although you can see this on my profile if you visit my site.
I have lived and worked in the outdoors all my adult life, I have probably worked and trained in more varied terrians and enviroments than most instructors in this country - I am not someone whose whole experience is a trip to the park and a nights camping in a friends garden nor am I some armchair survivalist who dreams of being Rambo's ugly sister. Although I have installed telephones for a living! In the army I taught field craft (in its many forms) and I taught, participated on and ran E&E courses amongst other things. Upon leaving the forces I attended Woodlores fundamental course around the same time as Ben and Lisa did theirs. I went on to do other woodlore courses before being asked back as an assistant instructor by them. Whilst with woodlore I work with Ben, Juha and Ray and gained invaluable experience from all three - but I also had ideas of my own and these (inparticular the survival aspects) I developed myself and took away with me to form Bearclaw Bushcraft.
As for setting up a company to take your hard earned cash - I agree there are companies like that out there - all that glitters isn't gold. But there are also a lot of companies set up by good people who care deeply about their subject and who wish to try to earn a living doing something they love. 18 years ago people where probably saying "That young Ray Mears fella whose he then? - he'll never make it no experience."
Personally speaking if money was my objective I wouldnt come into the forum and offer free advice or give away courses - maybe I'd sit on the side lines like some cyber Grima worm tongue.
Well hope thats gone some way to clarifying things for you all - and like so many others I too would advise you when looking for courses to shop around until you find what suits you best at the end of the day you are the judge noone else.
Ask and you will recieve
There we go - clarification
I wouldn't say anybody above was questioning your credentials - the heat rose over misinterpretation of words, but it's good out in the open because for the number of people who comment, you can times that by those that don't comment and now they know.
Yikes :shock: The fitting the telephones part...............what are the chances of that happening harry ? now who was it who used that analogy, perhaps we could edit it to a window cleanor or van driver or any thing ?
I would also think that the instructors who don't contribute to this site may have good reasons, like I don't see how some of the flat out full timers with packed out programmes would find the time with families,etc. it may just be that forums are not their cup of tea, because a lot of names on here post elsewhere, that's alot of computer time. Personally I can't belive how much time I've spent on here myself this week (first week) - so much I 've failed to prepare my route cards for this weekends hike and bivi :shock:
Love you all :-D
Maxmountains
Hello Chris - nice one
Sounds like a Fair deal, will go to PM on this
Maxmountains
Stuart,
Gary Wale has NEVER worked for Woodsmoke.
He HAS worked for Woodlore (on some courses, for two seasons) as an assistant to Juha Rankinen and myself, when I worked for Woodlore as an Instructor.
Is Gary aware that you are making these statements on his behalf?
It is refreshing to see that forum members like Max and PaulMac are making prudent enquiries, before parting with their hard earned cash. I would encourage others to follow their example.
Best regards,
Ben McNutt.
www.woodsmoke.uk.com
My apologies Ben/Lisa
I had (mistakenly) thought that as Gary was one of the instructors on my woodlander course with woodsmoke that he worked for yourselves, you have now informed me that he was a in fact a 'guest' instructor on my course and not full time.
Gary was not aware that I had made this statement and again I apoligise for any confusion that I may have caused
Personally speaking, if I was looking to attend a course, I'd be looking to find someone I felt I could learn from. Apart from having the knowledge and skills, it'd also be important for them to be patient, supportive, nuturing and unassuming.
I'm paying, and if I simply didn't like the bloke, why on earth would I want to suffer a week in his company, at my expense?
I think that's partly why I like this forum so much. It gives me chance to communicate with people and have some insight beforehand. People who share their knowledge freely have always impressed me. I would like to take the opportunity to thank Gary - and all the knowledgeable people on this site, for sharing what they know, what they've learned from years of experience, without asking for a single thing in return. When it comes to choosing a course, all things being pretty much equal, I'll be picking from one of you lot.
The same ethic runs true on British Blades. It'd be understandable for knifemakers to keep their manufacturing secrets to themselves would it not? But the ethic is to share knowledge freely - and they all do. The community grows, the knowledge base grows, and the industry prospers as a result. People still buy thier knives, sharing their methods doesnt detract from that (quite the contrary), in fact they often buy knives from each other. Working towards a community, has a positive impact for the individual as well as the community as a whole.
The participants on this forum seem to have this insight, it's a good thing. Thanks all. :-)
theknight
28-02-2004, 17:06
Who the hell started this post?! :shock:
I am sorry if I have said the wrong thing here but it seems to me that no one can mention the word ' school' without WW3 starting!
In my line of work I see business's spending thousands on advertising and PR, they would give their back teeth to get the publicity that 'schools' get here and they are getting it for nothing!
I may be wrong but the 'schools' have no real imput into this site and it's members, but the demand for their course's must be going through the roof at the moment.
Well done Gary for handling it with such dignity and grace............perhaps others could follow your example by giving and not just receiving.
Nick.
theknight
28-02-2004, 17:27
And another thing.
Surely this site is about us, the members, and of course anybody else who wants to get involved. This site is about what we do and how we do it. Where we go and what we have seen, bought and learnt recently. If the ' schools' want to get involved then fine......welcome aboard. If they don't, then big deal so what, they don't run this site and this site isn't run for them!
I have meet some of you guys and we have all learnt something from each other and I have learnt loads from this site also. I was pretty much in the dark before I found BCUK and now I have meet some wonderful people and learnt stacks and I have bought kit of people on here and the service from them, is quite frankly, some of the best service I have ever had and believe me, I know what I am talking about.
I can see that this site will grow in to a great resource and it will inspire people to get out there and have some wonderful experiences. I think we are lucky in having such knowledgeable people on the site willing to share what they know, for nothing and that is pretty rare these days
Absolutely ...
Think about it ... would you buy a PC over the Internet if the description was such:
PC
Beige box
Some bits attached
£1000
No, you'd want more info - lots more, yet routinely, the outdoor leisure industry (and let's not kid ourselves, that's what it is, leisure industry - commercialization of the outdoors), expects to get away with that kind of selling. Here's a web page - now gimme £500.
Personally, I wouldn't go on a course with anyone that wouldn't give me a refund after the first hour for a day course or at the end of day 1 for a 5 - 7 day course - period.
Personally speaking, if I was looking to attend a course, I'd be looking to find someone I felt I could learn from. Apart from having the knowledge and skills, it'd also be important for them to be patient, supportive, nuturing and unassuming.
I'm paying, and if I simply didn't like the bloke, why on earth would I want to suffer a week in his company, at my expense?
Oooops ... makes more sense now!!!
Adi007 - I didn't quite understand the last paragraph about refunds on 1 day courses, are words in the right places or am I missing something, could you please check it out for me?
Interesting point, on what scenario would you request your money back, because for example.
A person books on course,
Said person turns up thinking he could get round a no alchohol policy,
At course start realises this is not possible without exposeing his want for alcohol,
Person throws teddies around
Demands his refund because the course is not what he thought. (Even though it stated it clearly)....I have actually seen this happen.
...
No, but I might if there was a no-alcohol policy that was suddenly changed at the request of a student!
Another scenario could be weather related, ie nice and sunny when left home, arrives at course to find his instructors rain dance prayers are to be answered for the next 7 days - wants out......and I've seen this more than once.
Nope ... not that either.
Would you request your money back because you do not like the instructor, even though you are the only one out of a dozen or more people who feel this way, the law of averages must make this happen on every course at every school for some reason, because I have yet to meet the most popular person in the world.
Now you're getting closer. A personality clash is never a good thing. Neither for the student concerned, the other students or the instructor. Basically in this case a school would be better off giving the student their money back since it's never good to just cling on to a customer just because you have their money.
This scheme of money back after the first hour/day (depending on length of course) is commonplace in tech training (say MCP, MCSE, Novell ... etc) because basically the best way that a training company can show that it stands by its product is by offering a money-back guarantee (remember that some offer this at the end if you don't pass, although this isn't as common). I don't think that reputation is everything. If that was the case, would Ford or Vauxhall let a bad car come off the assembly line? No. But no matter how good the reputation, things can go wrong. What should the folks who got the first batch of WS Woodlore knives have done when there was a handle issue? Forget about it and put it down ti a bad buy? No. Equally, did this happen because WS isn't reputable, no. See, you need a guarantee, and nothing beats a money back. :-D
In the perfect world all things would be black and white but us brits with the best reputation in the world at escaping situations will allways come up with a way to abuse any and every system on offer. Hence the point to use a reputable company :-D
Personally, I don't think we complain enough in the UK ... :-D ... but I'll leave that for another day.
Really - I wouldn't have a problem telling someone I didn't think it was gonna work out ... especially if I'd paid £500!
Bear in mind that a money back guarantee is a safety net. Not something to use on a whim.
However, in business the phrase to remember is "the customer is always right!"
theknight
29-02-2004, 23:20
I have done alot of outdoor related courses, military and civvie and come across a very wide variety of instructors, they never fell into one mould,some I liked immensely and some I personally couldn't stand, but not one of them were bad instrustors, I accepted the fact that I would never be lucky enough to like all instructors and got on with it. In honesty one reason I didn't like one instructor was because I was inwardly envious of him, because he was doing what I wanted to be doing - and doing it very well, in fact I hated him, so I thought I'm going to get my monies worth from you and he proved to be the best instructor I've had yet.
Chris.
None of us are Gods! We can all do what the other man does................if, and I mean, if, we wanted to!
...in fact I hated him, so I thought I'm going to get my monies worth from you and he proved to be the best instructor I've had yet.
Top marks for honesty Chris :super:
I don't teach bushcraft (nothing like!) but teaching has been a major part of my entire professional life, and I can cope with teaching people who hate me as long as they have the same attitutde that you do - "I'll screw as much as I can from this *******"
What I find hard to deal with are people who seem to want to be disruptive, e.g. arguing from a position of ignorance - I'm very happy for debate and questioning of what I teach (delighted in fact that they're awake enough to do so!) but when it appears to be done just to disrupt the class then I get cross :twisted:
On an outdoors course, where safety is an important issue, there must be times when the instructor says "Jump" and the only sane response is to jump
No, never had a bad experience - I guess I always have a good idea of what I want in advance and what I want out of something.
As to consumer law, the two laws in the UK that cover this are the The Sale of Goods Act 1979 and the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982, with the key phrase being that a service has to be carried out 'with reasonable care and skill' and be "as described". With a service that's been paid for in advance things are different to a shop where you don't like the owner - you can just walk out. If you've paid up, then things change.
Basically, I'd suggest anyone parting with cash to get in touch and find out for themselves. Talk to the instructor is possible and if in any doubt, don't! There's plenty of other places that want you money!
I think that this is an interesting thread and having attended a number of schools, I would support the advice to choose very carefully and do your research. Also, try to get the opinions of those with a bit of experience who have attended a variety of schools rather than just one, as even poor teachers/practicioners with relatively little knowledge and skill can impress new-comers.
There is a danger that forums like this however can distort the picture somewhat. I have seen very good schools take a rather 'public' knock for very minor reasons, and not-so-good ones be recommended. I guess that this is an unavoidable part of any web-forum, but worth bearing in mind.
Until some form of accreditation or quality standard exists for bushcraft instructors, the best you can do is lots of research, and be prepared to challenge the instructor if you have doubts. A good instructor will have no problem proving his/her worth and will also be honest about their limitations.
Also, remember that formal schooling should only be a launch-pad and/or supplement to your our own on-going practice!
Roving Rich
04-03-2004, 11:51
:ekt: well said Richard. We are as careful as we can be here, and are constantly treading on eggshells. But everyone has their own opinion and the right to express it. So don't take it as gospel as it may well just boil down to personality clashes, inflated egos or one minor niggling bad experience.
My advice is get as many opinions as you can. And phone the school up and discuss what you are looking for from a course, and what is offered, before parting with your money.
I am sure you are within your consumer rights to ask for your money back. But personally I would not do this. Its the last resort. Any misgivings I would discuss as I went along, giving the opportunity for the instructors to help or take it up at the end of the course when there is usually a discussion.
The place you vacate cannot be filled at short notice by a school so they will end up out of pocket. It would have to be an atrocious school to warrant such action IMO.
Just do your Homework.
Cheers
Rich :-D
Exactly! The more research you do, the better! And the more info you get in writing the better because if you've got info in writing and you seriously think that you've haven't got what you paid for, you can then safely turn to the The Sale of Goods Act 1979 and the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 for protection.
I agree that no one should ask for money back lightly (the law doesn't allow for it anyway), but on the other hand never fear doing so either because that's a road to disaster - I'm not talking here just about training, I've just sorted out for a client a laptop problem that dragged on for over 6 months that was only finally sorted by turning to the law and asking for money back - then, miraculously, everything was sorted. A corporate entity, no matter how big or small, has two things that it wants to keep hold of ... reputation and money, unfortunately nowadays the reputation can be exhausted much quicker than the cash and money is sometimes the only lever left.
Research, research and research some more!
Just do your Homework.
Cheers
Rich :-D
But there are also a lot of companies set up by good people who care deeply about their subject and who wish to try to earn a living doing something they love. 18 years ago people where probably saying "That young Ray Mears fella whose he then? - he'll never make it no experience."
This is a good point Gary.
There are a number of dedicated people who start-up part-time 'schools' because they love the subject and feel they have something to offer but also feel they are not in a position to launch into a full-time venture.
For my part, I enjoy running occasional workshops and demonstrations alongside my main job. They key with this is to recognise the limits of one's expertise and only teach those subject where you feel appropriately accomplished. My approach, given the limited time I have each year, is to concentrate on teaching the basics to give people with little experience of the subject a solid foundation and real enthusiam. I stick to a tried and tested course programme where the emphasis is on helping people to fully understand the core skills through clear, structured learning. If people want to go on to learn more specialised or advanced skills, I can then point them in the right direction, be it with me or someone else. What a good instructor would never do is take money for teaching beyond his ability just because he's 'hooked' a loyal student. All teachers have a responsibility to be honest and to steer a dedicated student in the most appropriate direction even if that's away from their own schools.
The other point about part-time instruction has already been made. A lot depends on what the instructor does at other times. I agree that many jobs do not allow a person to always maintain their skill and experience. However, sometimes having another job can enhance the experience an instructor can bring to his/her students. I am fortunate to work in wildlife conservation and ecology where I get to use 'bushcraft' skills such as animal track & sign identification and plant identification in a professional capacity. Prior to this, I also spent many years teaching outdoor environmental field-work and some outdoor pursuits to people from all ages and backgrounds, in all weathers. I also voulunteer for my local Search & Rescue team. All of these 'applied' aspects provide useful experience just as Gary's army career has, but don't always come with the label of 'Bushcraft'
The point is that although a school may be part-time, its instructors might actually be practicing elements of bushcraft, nature awareness and teaching (in less obvious ways) 'full-time'. Conversely, many full-time schools employ good part-time instructors to lead some of their courses. Any 'rule of thumb' on course selection should bear all this in mind.
I'm with Chris on this,
After undertaking courses at the 3 schools mentioned above by Chris and also at some new part time outfits that came along through the years, of one of these a part time instructor attacked one of the students, the gulf between the standards of safety and course qaulity was immense.
After wasting my money on "fly by night - think they can do it" outfits I stick firmly with the older outfits who have established themselves well within the subject, once bitten twice shy and all that.
The skill topics I gained by attending the 3 schools Chris mentioned have been so varied and comprehensive, this rules out the need for me to go to new schools who, appear to be trying to regurgitate the same courses.
A point I would like to add is the comment above by someone saying that the schools don't give to this forum so therefore they must not be putting anything back into the subject, was a bit unfair, this forum or site is yet to become the authuoritive bee all and end all to the subject so just because someone doesn't contribute to this place doesn't mean they don't give elsewhere, in fact I personally think it was an insult to people who I know work very hard for the cause and give much more than they recieve.
A similar comment could be made,that maybe it suits the guys starting up to contribute to this forum to get recognition and to build a potential customer base, something the older schools may not need to do.
So for now I'll stick with the variety of instructors I know and trust. No offence is meant to you new guys but I think most people will understand my comments and approach, good luck.
By the way, last week was the first week I contributed to the forum, many hours in fact and in doing so, I failed to prepare myself correctly for my weekends bivi and hike. This week I kepted the computer turned off, I have prepered a new route plan for this weekend, been out in the evenings testing out and perfecting some new kit (stove,compass and gps)the rucksacks in the boot and I'm ready to go, see ya Sunday night.
Oh Chris, thanks for a good adventure last weekend, thawed out yet?
Max
Very good points Richard and well raised.
I would also like to point out one last thing - while I worked for Woodlore (undoubtedly the foremost school in the uk) All the instructional team where part-timers in one form or another - all except Ray and the office staff of course.
Did that effect our level of knowledge or our ability to teach our subject?
HI.
I have been known to teach martial arts from time to time. I know I could earn vastly more money teaching it as a business. Charging for gradings every couple of months shortening the class duration increasing the number of students per class, etc. At present I have a truly loathsome job that pays a pittance I am tempted.
However the reason we teach hopefully is to pass on the best knowledge we can. I don't agree that to be professional you have to be full time.
There are great part time instructors and full time but there are also some seriously crap ones as well.
I hope people on here are not seeking more regulation of the bushcraft world. Seeking ever more standardisation and certification, next there will be a NVQ in Friction fire lighting. Becareful what you wish for you might just get it.
What do others think is there a need for a bushcraft instructor award?
The military term 'survival instructor' is a good feather in the cap, then I would say that as I have been one, but it doesnt necessarily carry across to the civilian world in everyway.
Whether you've done SCBC, PCBC or whatever doesn't necessarily mean your a good commander, I have served with some excellent soldiers who never even made it onto a JNCO cadre and I have seen some officers and SNCO'S who frankly I wouldnt have followed into the NAFFI for NAFFI BREAK- equally I have taught military survival instructors, namely from the R.A.F, and while excellent students and instructors in their own rights they, like all military instructors, are trained to teach exatly what the pamphlet tells so them, even with the best will in the world they are restricted.
Further to this military survival usually means E&E the exact opposite to what should be taught in the civilian world - for the injured or lost hiker being found is their ultimate goal and here is where the military and civilian instruction must differ - and that is forgotting about kits ect too for here the difference is even more dramatic.
Speaking from experience, Military survival and most areas of bushcraft are as alike as chalk and cheese and while it is undoubtedly good to know and have practical experience of both it is not totally necessary - I know some good bushcraft instructors who would be as tactically aware as my dog.
Civilian survival and bushcraft are also different beasts - bushcraft should be focused on primitive living skills, teaching conservation and respect for nature, teaching the student to understand and live in harmony with the natural world around them. Civilian survival on the other hand is totally UN-PC - it is about keeping yourself alive until rescued (usually 72 hours being the expected time span) and if that means raping the local enviroment of all its resources then you would do it (having taken various aspects of your situation into concideration first of course).
As for regulation - no that is the last thing we should bring into bushcraft. Bushcraft is a gentle subject, loved by both the student and the instructor, it is something in the blood. Regualtion would kill it, just like our sue you culture is destroying so many things today - when it snows children cant have snowball fights or be allowed out to play for fear of their parents sueing the school for example. Can you imagine the day when a bushcraft student wasnt allowed to use a knife upon a course for fear that if they cut themself they would sue the instructor? No - well that is regualtion for you - all courses would end up as demonstration only with students signing disclaimer after disclaimer and the one thing which is most important - the one reason you should go on a course - practical hands on experience, would be a thing of the past.
In all seriousness a well thought out code of practise wouldn't hurt, but as as with all things its a fine idea until people get involved for as with all laws, regualtions and red tape the only people who really benefit in the end are the lawyers.
That is my humble opinion be it right or wrong.
Hi Gary.
I couldn't agree more. Nicely put.
having read some of the comments on whether or not an instructor is full time or not......
I personally wouldn't care if the instructor was a ballet dancer Monday to Friday, as long as he knew his subject and was good at teaching it during a course. Surely it is better to find an excellent teacher, albeit a part-time one, than a poor one who is full time.
I also think unless a school was utterly incompetent and dangerous, you couldn't demand your money back when a course has started. I think it is up to you to do your research properly - personal recommendations, etc... Whatever is industry standard in your job is no reason to apply it in schools that teach Bushcraft, unless it would be of benefit. This is one of the things that I think is so good about this site. You can get an honest reaction to a course.
Just my humble 0.02% opinion
Deathcap
12-03-2004, 23:27
I thought i just have to say that i do agree with Taq, i do believe that if somebody or persons want to start teaching bushcraft or is already teaching part-time and they are good and passionate about there subject then it can only be a good thing more the merrier. Not every body can be a fulltime instructor, with the new bushcrafts sites starting up keeps the subject fresh, may be they have some thing new to offer the paying public besides only the good one will make it.
This is all v. interesting but are not some folks missing a point?
I see bushcraft as being at one with nature - therefore if one is prepared to subscibe to this then such commercial values need to be re-thought. Not too sure how though! If one attends a course in this field, the knowledge base has a price and therefore it should be paid for. Granted some instructors/teachers are not right for some folks. Personally the military style is not for me, however it does have it's place undoubtedly. However knowlege that is valueable
must have a valued and unfortunately the only way of showing this, in our soceity is by cash. Hard fact! It is all too easy to knock a 'product' and we
often do it unwittingly. The succesful schools will survive, those that do not will not! I am lucky enough to make my living from sharing nature with others. It is a great privilage. Charging is very difficult but until there is another way I and others in the outdoors/nature field cannot feed/house/transport ourselves/families in this soceity without cash! I have recently attended a course - it cost me twice what I would charge for the same time birding but that was my choice. (It was money well spent). Good debating!
Jeremyh
Yes, there have been some good debating on here ... however, I want to clear one thing up. I've been saying that "customers" need to make sure that they get what they've been promised (contracted if you want to be legal about it). A big part of this is doing research into what you want and what's on offer. Also, I want to clear up the fact that I don't believe that courses should be free or that people should ask for their money back at the drop of a hat - I'm not. However, if you are choosing to part with your cash, the least you can do is make sure you are signing up to what you want and that you then get what you paid for. That's all.