View Full Version : Ventile vs modern fabrics?
Buckshot
23-02-2004, 13:55
Have I got the wrong end of this but...
My understanding is Ventile is a fairly old invention and, although OK in the breathable and waterproof stakes, is beaten hands down when up against more modern fabrics.
Why then does everybody get so excited about this fabric - what am I missing, it must have a pretty good plus side somewhere to win overall
:oops:
(I currently wear a 'modern fabric' jacket) :-?
Cheers
Mark
AntarcticFire
23-02-2004, 14:12
The below link answers has some answers...
http://outside.away.com/gear/gearguy/200309/20030905.html
I've currently got a West Winds Ben Nevis jacket (ventile) that I found
on sale and I love it to bits. :-D
Have I got the wrong end of this but...
My understanding is Ventile is a fairly old invention and, although OK in the breathable and waterproof stakes, is beaten hands down when up against more modern fabrics.
Why then does everybody get so excited about this fabric - what am I missing, it must have a pretty good plus side somewhere to win overall
:oops:
(I currently wear a 'modern fabric' jacket) :-?
Cheers
Mark
How is it beaten hands down compared to modern fabrics?
Modern fabrics rip, melt, burn and puncture a lot easier than ventile. Also, modern fabrics need an awful lot of care to stay waterproof and breathable.
Modern fabrics rip, melt, burn and puncture a lot easier than ventile. Also, modern fabrics need an awful lot of care to stay waterproof and breathable.
The more I think about it, the more sense it makes to me to combine the virtues of the various fabrics available.
A tough, windproof, somewhat waterproof (Ventile?) outer layer combined with a more delicate breathable waterproof layer, like the Goretex smock liners you can get, then a warming layer (e.g. fleece) finally a base layer that wicks well. Combine as many of the above as the conditons require and you're happy.
I'm sure I'm the last person to work this out :oops: I may be slow but I get there eventually :lol: (Hey, maybe that should be my sig!)
An interesting addition to this thread is good old poly/cotton of an approx 65/35 mix - clothing made of this material is as tough as it comes, dries really quickly, light and pretty safe around the camp fire - more importantly its a darn sight cheaper than ventile.
Ventile is good - but not waterproof - ventile is tough but very slow drying and takes on a horrible stiffnes when wet.
Modern fabrics are exxentially plastic and melt near fire.
My latest and greatest re-discovery is the US M65 jacket - a real one not a cheap or expensive imitation is poly cotton comes with a liner and doesnt cost a fortune.
Anyone out to get a good bushcraft jacket would be well advised to look at these - after all the yank military have used em for 30 years! For trousers look at British lightweights these are green and again poly cotton - fantastic and again minimum expendature financially.
Hope that helps.
My latest and greatest re-discovery is the US M65 jacket
issat woodland or OG? complete with extendable ninja cuffs too! :-D
mine doesn't get used as much as it once did. the strange thing i find is how warm it is for only two layers of polycotton.
still takes quite a while to dry though.
cheers, and.
I love my Arktis sniper smock for the same reason ... ripstop polycotton that's not going to get holes in it all the time yet dries easily ... I've also proofed it with Nikwax Cotton Proof that helps a lot!
The excitement went out of Ventile over here when the gov't created testing standards for "waterproof" and Ventile failed miserably. Devoid of the ability to even call itself "waterproof," it disappeared pretty fast.
Now there are texturized nylons that hold water repellant chemicals as well as cotton ever did. Not much interest in them either -- not "waterproof."
Still that melting problem, but I've had one hole in 25 years of nylon and polyester (pine wood fire %^$&#!!).
On the plus side, nylon and polyester are both much more abbrasion-resistant than cotton.
Back to the minus side, Gore-tex stops breathing when the outside gets wet as the vapor pressure can't overcome the film strength of the water --might as well be wearing "oilskin." This can be overcome to some extent by designing ventilation into the garment.
One solution. Listen to Mom. "Come in out of the rain." :-)
I'm leaning more and more towards something in ventile. I suppose it depends on your usage. To be honest, I dont go out all that often in really foul weather, moderately inclemant is OK, but like you say if it's stormy, I come in out of the rain. So for me, a ventile, with a cheap, small (thin), non-breathable, waterproof poncho is looking a good option. If it's drizzly, the ventile should be fine on it's own. If the heavans suddenly open, out with the poncho. If it's a full blown storm, I dont go out (or I have my old goretex if I really need to). But to buy a jacket made of goretex, which is only really needed (for me anyway) once in a blue moon, I'd be sacrificing all the comfort, softness, quietness, durability and breathability of cotton. :wink:
I guess if your job or hobby regularly takes you out in truly foul conditions, your requirements are different.
The excitement went out of Ventile over here when the gov't created testing standards for "waterproof" and Ventile failed miserably. Devoid of the ability to even call itself "waterproof," it disappeared pretty fast.
in the past a magazine over here has said the same things about Páramo clothing, that it is not classed as a water proof, but it works better than many alternatives, it just works in a different way. The same for ventile, get the right type of fabric, use the right design and you have a waterproof garment.
Tests where they just take a square of fabric and stick them on a machine can be very misleading and very damaging to the confidence in that products. A shame when it is often unwarranted.
Buckshot
24-02-2004, 08:31
Thanks everyone, now I understand - I think :oops:
I need a jacket that is waterproof because during the winter especially I don't have the option of rolling over, pulling the duvet up a bit and going back to sleep :cry: I need a jacket that is as 'fully waterproof' as I can get within reason (not an oilskin :wink: )
For that reason I think my best bet is to stick with fabrics like Gortex as they come closest to fulfill my needs.
Cheers again :ekt:
Mark
in the past a magazine over here has said the same things about Páramo clothing, that it is not classed as a water proof, but it works better than many alternatives, it just works in a different way. The same for ventile, get the right type of fabric, use the right design and you have a waterproof garment.
Tests where they just take a square of fabric and stick them on a machine can be very misleading and very damaging to the confidence in that products. A shame when it is often unwarranted.
Yep, the testing is oftern complete nonsense, as to Paramo and the like I go by my personal testing in stormy weather:
Paramo - never let any weather in
Waxed Cotton - never let any weather in
Gortex - Ended up soaked in a couple of hours
Ventile - I'll let you know when I've made (well my wife has made) my new jacket!
David
I agree ... tests such as hydrostatic head and burst pressures aren't something that you can easily relate to the real world ... :cry:
When you really look at the drawbacks of the breathable fabrics, it's amazing that they are used for much more than gucci clothing!!! They are poorly placed for the outdoors (look how easy a spark or thorn can take out a £300 jacket!)
So basically, mil-spec tests for cloth ... bad :evil:
Knife handles (a la new WS Woodlore) ... good :-D :-D
Tests where they just take a square of fabric and stick them on a machine can be very misleading and very damaging to the confidence in that products. A shame when it is often unwarranted.
Interesting comments. I am looking at Ventile for summer wear here in the Hebrides. Use a bufalo pertex at the moment good but not waterproof..or a lightweight wax cotton - problems with sand/salt and proofing. For winter I have been using wool Ghillie coat -made here on Islay. Fantastic. Heavy in the rain but keeps me dry-especially as the weather here can be wet wet in winter. I guess not dissimilar to Swanndri.
So...horses for courses. I would just add though that my clients who use Gortex always seem wetter/colder after a day's birding.
JeremyH
FJS90-91
24-02-2004, 11:55
For that reason I think my best bet is to stick with fabrics like Gortex as they come closest to fulfill my needs.
Cheers again :ekt:
Mark
Personaly i dont prefer GTX in the winter because it realeses heat trough the GTX and thats not good in the winter..
Personaly i dont prefer GTX in the winter because it realeses heat trough the GTX and thats not good in the winter..
In severe cold, the problem with Gore-Tex is not loss of heat. The problem is that it does not breath enough = traped moisture causing inner layers to get damp - even wet. At those temps, water is not present externally - just ice and snow. Untreated nylon, polyester, tightly-woven cotton or "Boiled" wool all work better than Gore-Tex in severe cold.
As for anecdotal evidence of Gore-tex letting water IN, that may be a matter of condensation or seam leakage. I have a bucket I use backpacking that I made from Gore-Tex. The seams are glopped with sealant. It does not leak. I've filled it (about 3 ltrs) and suspended it above newsprint for hours. Not a drop leaked.
Great Pebble
24-02-2004, 15:48
You could go off your M-65 sharpish if you ever get it soaked in the field
Nick in Belfast
There is another option a quiet ripstop poly cotton outer with a goretex or porvair drop liner, I have one of these for use in the Ranger service it's quiet warm and waterproof as a week on a woodsmoke nomad course proved, it comes with a 3 year warranty and is made by the nice people at karrimor SF, it comes in almost any camo pattern you could think of and of course OG, these are issued to most police forces for covert ops, so far I can't fault it, it also can zip in any fleece with a ykk zip so is very versitile it has 7 pockets 2 big cargo ones 2 handwarmers (that can be accessed even when wearing a rucksac), and there are trousers to match if you want. :-D
Burnt Ash
25-02-2004, 12:54
I find Goretex to be almost completely useless in many circumstances in the British Isles for two reasons:
THISTLES
&
GORSE
Once a Goretex membrane is punctured by the very fine and very penetrating spines of thistles/gorse, it leaks. That's it! End of story!
If you can stand the expense, choose Ventile for its relative toughness; quietness; relative resistance to biting insects; comfort when dry (not so nice when really wet, hard and stiff) and a useful degree of showerproofness (I find it helps to wash Ventile in appropriate Nikwax product, or spray with Grangers).
Paramo garments work on a completely different priciple. The fabric actively pumps liquid water outwards, especially if you're moving constantly. It beats Gortex and other membrane waterproof systems hands down on breathability (sweat box) tests. You can lie in a gorse bush in a Paramo garment and it will retain full functional waterproofness. Try that with Goretex!
I have to agree with other posters on this thread that poly-cotton cloth is very functionally effective (tough, comfortable, quiet, relatively windproof and slow(ish) to get pongy). It's fine for ordinary everyday wind shirts, bushjackets, etc. It is, of course, much cheaper than Ventile.
IMO, really impervious ponchos (PVC sheet) are the most effective waterproofs. The poncho has vastly better ventilation than any closed jacket design, which more than compensates for any lack of breathability in the fabric. On the debit side, ponchos aren't suited to several activities: they'd be useless for sailing; serious climbing or any activity that required much use of hands/arms above shoulder level. They can be positively dangerous in very high winds.
Burnt Ash
I find Goretex to be almost completely useless in many circumstances in the British Isles for two reasons:
THISTLES
&
GORSE
Once a Goretex membrane is punctured by the very fine and very penetrating spines of thistles/gorse, it leaks. That's it! End of story!
. . .
IMO, really impervious ponchos (PVC sheet) are the most effective waterproofs. The poncho has vastly better ventilation than any closed jacket design, which more than compensates for any lack of breathability in the fabric. On the debit side, ponchos aren't suited to several activities: they'd be useless for sailing; serious climbing or any activity that required much use of hands/arms above shoulder level. They can be positively dangerous in very high winds. Burnt Ash
There are reportedly thorns in other parts of the world. :-)
I also use a poncho when the activity allows, but (except for inexpensive all-plastic models) the poncho, like Gore-Tex, relies on a coating over some material. If the outer layer is tough, it resists punctures. If not . . .
The "hanging" Gore-Tex liner noted above by yowee resists thorns pretty well. But it still hardly "breathes" in the rain, is expensive, and, unlike the poncho, can't be rigged as shelter.
Burnt Ash
25-02-2004, 15:47
I find Goretex to be almost completely useless in many circumstances in the British Isles for two reasons:
THISTLES
&
GORSE
Once a Goretex membrane is punctured by the very fine and very penetrating spines of thistles/gorse, it leaks. That's it! End of story!
. . .
IMO, really impervious ponchos (PVC sheet) are the most effective waterproofs. The poncho has vastly better ventilation than any closed jacket design, which more than compensates for any lack of breathability in the fabric. On the debit side, ponchos aren't suited to several activities: they'd be useless for sailing; serious climbing or any activity that required much use of hands/arms above shoulder level. They can be positively dangerous in very high winds. Burnt Ash
There are reportedly thorns in other parts of the world. :-)
I also use a poncho when the activity allows, but (except for inexpensive all-plastic models) the poncho, like Gore-Tex, relies on a coating over some material. If the outer layer is tough, it resists punctures. If not . . .
The "hanging" Gore-Tex liner noted above by yowee resists thorns pretty well. But it still hardly "breathes" in the rain, is expensive, and, unlike the poncho, can't be rigged as shelter.
I don't doubt that there are 'thorns' in other parts of the world, but thistle and gorse have very fine needles that penetrate most fabrics (any that I'd care to wear, anyway). My point is this: if you have to protect the Goretex membrane with a layer(s) that will resists gorse and thistle, you have probably lost all/any avantage of breathability you started out with from the Goretex.
I've found this with breathable waders (I'm a fly fishing instructor). They are wonderful, super, fabulous ... until you sit down on a little thistle when your'e having your lunch sandwich. That's it: curtains for £300 super-de-luxe breathable waders. Wet **** for the rest of the week (and ever after).
Burnt Ash
I don't doubt that there are 'thorns' in other parts of the world, but thistle and gorse have very fine needles that penetrate most fabrics (any that I'd care to wear, anyway). My point is this: if you have to protect the Goretex membrane with a layer(s) that will resists gorse and thistle, you have probably lost all/any avantage of breathability you started out with from the Goretex.Burnt Ash
Burnt Ash, having agreed with your conclusion, I should have been more precise.
Nettles of several species are found everywhere in North America except for extreme deserts. Gorse is found up and down both coasts of North and South America and is especially bad in Californa, where it is regarded as the No. 1 noxious weed problem. Gorse is also found widely in New Zealand, Australia, Denmark and Germany. However, I have no doubt whatsoever that Gorse and nettles are worse in the UK than anywhere else on Earth. I give you pride of place.
American cactus, however, also have very fine spines indeed, and I absolutely insist that we have more cactus that have you in the Storied Isles. So there! :wink:
Not to mention briars, blackthorns and a good few lengths of barbed wire!!!
One touch on the coat by any of those and you can kiss bye-bye to a few hundred quid!
I find Goretex to be almost completely useless in many circumstances in the British Isles for two reasons:
THISTLES
&
GORSE
Ogri the trog
26-11-2009, 22:51
Hey wow, its not often I can rekindle a five year old thread, but I'm going to....
Last weekend I had the pleasure of camping on the Sennybridge ranges and being outdoors for much of the weekend during a significant amount of rainfall. THroughout the weekend I used both goretex and ventile outer layers and I think my findings might be beneficial to this thread.
My goretex is quite old, probably nearer 20 years since it was issued and I can't say it has ever performed as well as any manufacturer would claim.
The ventile is a home sewn smock which is a "Work in progress".
The best combination by far was to use the ventile under the GTX which left me as the only dry staff member after a full day outdoors with all that Mid Wales rain could throw at me.... big smug grin on returning to our farm accomodation!
and I recon it was this good because -
1) the goretex was able to shrug off the worst of the wind-blown droplets.
2) which in turn allowed the ventile to do its job without having to work too hard.
The ventile is fast becoming my favourite foul weather accessory and I have aome other garments in the planning stage - but I recon that if it was not for the outer layer, I would have been looking to get an indoor job!
ATB
Ogri the trog
Hey wow, its not often I can rekindle a five year old thread, but I'm going to....
Last weekend I had the pleasure of camping on the Sennybridge ranges and being outdoors for much of the weekend during a significant amount of rainfall. THroughout the weekend I used both goretex and ventile outer layers and I think my findings might be beneficial to this thread.
My goretex is quite old, probably nearer 20 years since it was issued and I can't say it has ever performed as well as any manufacturer would claim.
The ventile is a home sewn smock which is a "Work in progress".
The best combination by far was to use the ventile under the GTX which left me as the only dry staff member after a full day outdoors with all that Mid Wales rain could throw at me.... big smug grin on returning to our farm accomodation!
and I recon it was this good because -
1) the goretex was able to shrug off the worst of the wind-blown droplets.
2) which in turn allowed the ventile to do its job without having to work too hard.
The ventile is fast becoming my favourite foul weather accessory and I have aome other garments in the planning stage - but I recon that if it was not for the outer layer, I would have been looking to get an indoor job!
ATB
Ogri the trog
Isn't that like using 2 umbrellas, when you should really only need one? :D Although on a more practical note, wouldn't that be rather warm?
I have swithered around this subject for ages, and defected from Goretex a couple of years ago via various Ventile jackets and then a heavy investment in Paramo.
My affection for Paramo went completely out of the window on a recent very wet canoe multi-day trip when it left me cold and soaked through after three hours and took days to dry. No thanks. I have also found that the mountain pull-on that is supposed to go underneath gets soaking and stays that way as well.
I'm still fond of Ventile because it looks and feels cool and has lots of heritage, but having had about 10 different jackets in my time I would say that :
- it's quite tough BUT it does rip (eg on barbed wire ALL the ones i have used for rough shooting are ripped)
- it doesn't last as long as a good Goretex jacket ! It wears and frays easily (eg at the cuffs and where it is puckered by a drawcord) and goes scruffy (may not be a problem). I reckon after a year of regular wear your Ventile will be looking tatty
- in single layer you will get decidedly damp (but no more)
- in double layer you stay dry a long time but it goes stiff as a board and really heavy
- it isn't really a success as trousers so you still need Goretex overtrousers !
By contrast, I've never melted a hole in Gortex jacket or trousers sitting or standing by a fire and never got dripping wet with condensation inside one either. Of course I don't go near buckthorns and gorse in it, but Ventile doesn't like those either and I reach for the good old Barbour for those jobs.
I've tried hanging Goretex liners inside a Ventile jacket and been very disappointed. Loads of condensation and the Ventile layer on the outside still goes stiff and wet.
I'm not convinced either by these new hybrid garments where you have Ventile on the outside and then Paramo Analogy pump liners. Paramo owners will tell you the pump liner gets pretty smelly and needs reproofing anyway. Ventile doesn't really like being washed much so I see this as a poor combination.
So although I still have my Ventile, my jacket of choice for really evil rain is a heavy duty Goretex jacket and overtrousers, with a ventile jacket for wearing as an all-round utility / comfort layer until the rain gets heavy. When out hill-walking in serious weather the Ventile stays at home completely. WL Gore is getting my money again.
All just my opinions of course, no more valid than anyone else's, but the result of expensive mistakes I would wish others to avoid !
NS
I have been using ventile a long time and as far as I am concerned there is no comparison to Gore-Tex.
One is a weather proof the other is a region specific waterproof.
Goretex is designed for climatic ranges (mountain jackets and walking jackets have different levels of breathability and hydrostatic head). They "do" have a working life that ranges between 2 and 4 years before they start to delaminate. They are not robust, they rip on barbed wire as well, but a lot easier and are subject to burns (which I can tell you if you get molten gore-tex on your skin you'll not want to experience it again). They are harder to repair in the field. They do require a lot of care and attention when it comes to cleaning.
Ventile is cotton, it can be washed normally, it's not region specific as far as breathability or hydrostatic head is concerned. It can be easily repaired in the field. It doesn't melt, but can burn (the big misnoma that people choose ventile because it's flame retardent is rubbish, it's because it doesn't melt leaving people with horrendous burns as it glues itself to your skin:eek:). The temperature that Ventile starts to burn at is far greater than where Gore-Tex starts to melt. It can be treated like dirt and you never have to worry about it de-laminating. You do not have to worry about some idiot sticking it in a washing machine with normal washing powder (the major reason for reduction of breathability in all goretex jackets). Its working life is far longer than that of Gore-Tex. It doesn't rustle like a crisp bag.
I am not totally against Gore-Tex, I have owned a number of Gore-Tex Jackets (some of which cost £400), but I have also owned triple point ceramic jackets and jackets made with innovation7 materials. They were all pretty much the same (I have to admit I do prefer the triple point ceramic side of life, but that's a bummer:()
If you want the highest level of breathability that provides a high level of wind resistance and water resilience then you look at ventile. If not and you want waterproofing get a bin liner as they are far more waterproof than Goretex and Ventile.
I reckon a loose-ish fitting wax cotton jacket, with a pure wool lining and linen at the collar and cuffs, beats them all.
It's tough, it doesn't spark, it's windproof, rainproof, comfortable, if loose it breathes and sweat escapes like the Inuit parka with movement ventilation. Wool makes it warm in Winter and when you can open the jacket to air, it dries out quickly.
It depends crucially on the cut of the garment though, and if the pockets are badly sited they may end up as hand ponds :rolleyes:
It's not light and in icy conditions it can be kind of stiff, but it's still a brilliant outdoor jacket in a damp, cool UK.
cheers,
Toddu
BorderReiver
27-11-2009, 16:51
And where would one obtain such a jacket Toddy?:)
BorderReiver
27-11-2009, 16:54
- it's quite tough BUT it does rip (eg on barbed wire ALL the ones i have used for rough shooting are ripped)
But when you sew it up it's still waterproof.:)
Tear a Goretex jacket and that's your waterproofness (is that word?) gone.:eek:
treadlightly
27-11-2009, 17:42
I reckon a loose-ish fitting wax cotton jacket, with a pure wool lining and linen at the collar and cuffs, beats them all.
It's tough, it doesn't spark, it's windproof, rainproof, comfortable, if loose it breathes and sweat escapes like the Inuit parka with movement ventilation. Wool makes it warm in Winter and when you can open the jacket to air, it dries out quickly.
It depends crucially on the cut of the garment though, and if the pockets are badly sited they may end up as hand ponds :rolleyes:
It's not light and in icy conditions it can be kind of stiff, but it's still a brilliant outdoor jacket in a damp, cool UK.
cheers,
Toddu
I have a 20 year old wax jacket, not one of the famous brands but a cheap one. It has done me proud and I recently rewaxed it so that it is fully waterproof.
It is bombproof and very practical, but it does not breathe well especially since I put the new wax on. Granted it has a lining of "mixed fibres" rather than wool but even allowing for opening the zip and letting air circulate it soon gets very hot and clammy if I walk any distance in it.
I reckon a loose-ish fitting wax cotton jacket, with a pure wool lining and linen at the collar and cuffs, beats them all.
I completely agree. And if the waxed cotton is right, the weight isn't too bad either.
But I must confess, a lot of the time when backpacking I just take a loose, knee length wool smock that I've made (imagine a longhunter jacket in wool) and a poncho.
Since wool still keeps you warm when wet, I don't worry about light showers (and wool's not bad at shedding light showers anyway!) and in heavy downpours I pull on the poncho.
Honestly, wool can handle virtually any outdoor need...
Besides, I've made my wool smock large enough to be part of my sleep system too, so it serves me well...
treadlightly
27-11-2009, 21:52
I completely agree. And if the waxed cotton is right, the weight isn't too bad either.
But I must confess, a lot of the time when backpacking I just take a loose, knee length wool smock that I've made (imagine a longhunter jacket in wool) and a poncho.
Since wool still keeps you warm when wet, I don't worry about light showers (and wool's not bad at shedding light showers anyway!) and in heavy downpours I pull on the poncho.
Honestly, wool can handle virtually any outdoor need...
Besides, I've made my wool smock large enough to be part of my sleep system too, so it serves me well...
Totally agree about wool's abilities...
John Fenna
27-11-2009, 22:48
I have been using ventile a long time and as far as I am concerned there is no comparison to Gore-Tex.
One is a weather proof the other is a region specific waterproof.
Goretex is designed for climatic ranges (mountain jackets and walking jackets have different levels of breathability and hydrostatic head). They "do" have a working life that ranges between 2 and 4 years before they start to delaminate. They are not robust, they rip on barbed wire as well, but a lot easier and are subject to burns (which I can tell you if you get molten gore-tex on your skin you'll not want to experience it again). They are harder to repair in the field. They do require a lot of care and attention when it comes to cleaning.
Ventile is cotton, it can be washed normally, it's not region specific as far as breathability or hydrostatic head is concerned. It can be easily repaired in the field. It doesn't melt, but can burn (the big misnoma that people choose ventile because it's flame retardent is rubbish, it's because it doesn't melt leaving people with horrendous burns as it glues itself to your skin:eek:). The temperature that Ventile starts to burn at is far greater than where Gore-Tex starts to melt. It can be treated like dirt and you never have to worry about it de-laminating. You do not have to worry about some idiot sticking it in a washing machine with normal washing powder (the major reason for reduction of breathability in all goretex jackets). Its working life is far longer than that of Gore-Tex. It doesn't rustle like a crisp bag.
I am not totally against Gore-Tex, I have owned a number of Gore-Tex Jackets (some of which cost £400), but I have also owned triple point ceramic jackets and jackets made with innovation7 materials. They were all pretty much the same (I have to admit I do prefer the triple point ceramic side of life, but that's a bummer:()
If you want the highest level of breathability that provides a high level of wind resistance and water resilience then you look at ventile. If not and you want waterproofing get a bin liner as they are far more waterproof than Goretex and Ventile.
Excellently put!
I love Ventile and hate crisp packet waterproofs. I too am not anti Gore etc but for most conditions Ventile is my first choice by far!
Waterworx
27-11-2009, 22:54
Just something else to add to the list
Montane (http://www.montane.co.uk/products/men/extreme/extreme-jacket/128)
Supposed to wick away moisture pretty quick.
As a counter point my experience with Ventile is less than rosy...
Before we headed out to live here in NZ I plumped for a single layer ventile garment cut in an SAS style Smock.. I suppose this style of jacket is pretty common among Bushcrafters from what I read.
I'd say it was absolutely the worst weatherproof jacket I've ever used bar none and that would include good old Neoprene 'centre' waterproofs and the Army reversible Arctic Water proof Jacket. Once the DWR treatment wore off the fabric it soaked up water like a sponge wet out and then became heavy stiff and let in water. I used it with woollen under layers and it was cold damp and pretty nasty to wear. I used it above and below the bushline in close bush and open I'd have to say my opinion of it is that as a waterproof layer it was rubbish. It was windproof and it did breathe well but it didn't keep me dry which is sort of the point of a waterproof jacket I think.. I also used it in the summer as a sort of bush shirt with the sleeves rolled up and in typically humid NZ bush it was horrid to wear sweaty and damp.... It's also reasonably fragile tears and wears easily and fades rapidly
My view based on my own experience of Ventile is the fabric is a bit over hyped on forums and the like. Reading how good it was certainly influenced my decision to buy it.
I have had really good service out of 2 goretex jackets over the last few years a Berghaus Lightning and Berghaus Alpine Extrem I've used them a lot and they haven't delaminated they re not full of holes they dont leak like a sieve and generally they keep me dry. I dont really look after them like the crown jewels.
I also wonder how many people have actually been 'shrink wrapped' in a melting nylon waterproof sitting by a fire?? I've not heard of any at all in 25 years of being in the outdoors... So perhaps it doesn't happen that often at all? But it makes good copy when your extolling the virtues of a cotton based 'waterproof' fabric... How many people have been wet and cold on the hill and have suffered with mild or full hypothermia wearing cotton based clothing might be an interesting statistic.
I'm not saying nylon breathable waterproofs are perfect because they're not.
I guess I am saying that Ventile in my experience is worse.
I also wonder how many people have actually been 'shrink wrapped' in a melting nylon waterproof sitting by a fire?? I've not heard of any at all in 25 years of being in the outdoors...
I agree with this -- I feel the popping embers/fire issue is vastly overwrought and largely (but not entirely) imaginary.
Plus, even if you get a tiny hole in a goretex (or whatever) jacket, it's hardly ruined.
All of my outdoors clothes have patches from rips and tears -- it's what happens when you use gear. Mending your gear just means you've lived a good outdoors life! When I see someone with patched clothes in the bush, I know they've spent lots of time outdoors.
Moreover, because of fire restrictions in many places I backpack (Sierras, etc.) I almost never have a camp fire anyway and stick with my hobo stove.
I agree with this -- I feel the popping embers/fire issue is vastly overwrought and largely (but not entirely) imaginary.
Plus, even if you get a tiny hole in a goretex (or whatever) jacket, it's hardly ruined.
All of my outdoors clothes have patches from rips and tears -- it's what happens when you use gear. Mending your gear just means you've lived a good outdoors life! When I see someone with patched clothes in the bush, I know they've spent lots of time outdoors.
Moreover, because of fire restrictions in many places I backpack (Sierras, etc.) I almost never have a camp fire anyway and stick with my hobo stove.
Spot on DW, all this talk of melting jackets and holes all over the place has fast become an urban myth IMHO.
Well I have seen someone shrink wrapped in melted plastic. Nylon trousers, and if he hadn't been rolled on the ground and smothered by his friends heaven knows how bad it would have been. The results as they are have left the skin of his lower left leg looking like someone stirred it with a stick :( and that's after three goes of skin grafts. After thirty years I can still hear him screaming, and smell the stench too, so yes, maybe I am guilty of pushing non flaring fabrics on folks. I'm not going to apologise for it, it is a very real risk and I'm not prepared to say otherwise. On the main though this is a community of competent adults, all very capable of making their own decisions.
Mostly I agree that a few spark holes aren't the end of the world. and my own 'working' clothes are goretex and triple point ceramic. But they cost me 100's of pounds and last maybe five years if I'm lucky. They look progressively more and more beat up too. One of my wax jackets is now 20 years old, cost under £70 and is still going strong.
HWMBLT is still wearing a 30 year old ventile jacket for woodland walks. Double skinned, faded in places, shaped to fit him, silent when he's on the move, comfy as it gets.
I suspect that for most of us clothing will always be a compromise. Goretex tears, so do the finer grades of ventile. Goretex will not last well, good ventile will. Goretex will spark holes, ventile not so much. Goretex does breathe, so does Ventile. Goretex can be overwhelmed by the weather and so can Ventile..........Y'know the ideal garment for this game is really a big woolly duffle coat :D
cheers,
Toddy
Hi Toddy,
I read you post with interest.
I would have bought my Berghaus Jackets in about 1988-1989 and after a lot of use all over the place they are a bit tired and sad looking but still serviceable.
Berghaus used to make a good bit of fabric back then with a Taslan Nylon face fabric with a decent scrim protecting the membrane and really good seam sealing all done by hard working folk in Newcastle IIRC. So 21 years service out of a Goretex jacket seems to be at least possible.. I suppose I would get another 3-4 years out of them barring anything major...
I'm truely sorry to read your account of your friends accident with melting nylon trousers. I'm sorry your experience does not parallel mine when it comes to incidents involving nylon outdoor fabric and melting or 'shrink wrapping'.
I would say the coldest I've ever been on a mountain or in the bush and the closest I feel I've ever been to hypothermia was decending from the Pinnacles track on the Coromandel here in NZ I was wearing my single layer Ventile jacket a woolen sweater and a polypro baselayer Poly cotton trousers and a pair of sympatex ( nylon) water proof leggings All my top layers were soaked through the ambient temp was well above freezing but it wasn't warm and I was chilled and had to keep moving to keep warm. The problem was of course the dry kit in my bergen would have been soaked if I'd have worn that as the Ventile jacket would not have kept the rain out... I didn't really wear that Ventile jacket much after that.
As said before, it's always a compromise.......unless you are in specific environments, like cold, dry Arctic.
You've done well to have goretex last that long, mine delaminate where workwear causes pressure or creasing........across the shoulders where my pack sits, at the elbows and just below the waist. The triple point ceramic beat it hands down but it got pulled from manufacture after being bought over by the goretex folks :sigh:
Joe's example is the one object lesson I need to remember that a spark can set off a horrific inflagration :(
I don't think I'd have worn single skin lightweight ventile and been comfortable in those conditions either.
On one of the earlier threads we discussed dressing for this climate, wet and cold but not freezing, and windy and exposed. The conclusion was windproof beat breathable. Thole the damp and keep moving to keep warm inside the waterproofs.
HWMBLT says his ventile is fine even when soaked because it's windproof and he keeps moving. The heat from his exertions slowly dries off the ventile from the inside out. He is much more active than I am, hillwalking is my idea of hell these days but he thrives on it :)
Ventile I find comfortable in my wanderings, but not in downpours. Double skin, heavier weight stuff though, takes a lot of beating if you're active.
It was originally developed to be a comfortable garment in wear that if it got soaked would swell the fibres and create a barrier layer. It becomes for many folks a well loved garment.
In the past folks managed fine with wool, linen, leather and occasionally grass capes. You'd think that with all the technology we have available we'd do better now.
cheers,
Toddy
BorderReiver
28-11-2009, 12:06
Johnboy, single layer ventile is ok for showers but a total waste of time in rain.
It's the way it works; DWR is a waste of time on ventile, the stuff is supposed to soak up water. The fibres swell up and seal the cloth to further water. The second layer only gets damp and the damp doesn't get through to the inside.
I have a ventile shirt which I wear in summer when it's showery. It keeps me dry for about an hour in fairly heavy downpours.
Glad that you survived your soakings.:)
I have an ex MOD MVP which works okay but feels clammy, a Regatta Isotex (Goretex copy) which lets water in if there is no body heat to evaporate heavy rain (ie the hood when a wax cap is worn underneath). I find a wax very good EXCEPT when using a rucksack which then makes me very very clammy on the back.
The best arrangement for me so far has been a cheap (£25) cotton SAS pattern smock for wind proofing topped by a poncho (belt needed when windy). Now I'm trying to get a reasonably priced smock made up in ventile (but the vendor's run out of material) so I'm contemplating a SASS smock to go with the poncho.
My point is, this set up isn't gucchi top notch equipment with the most modern fabrics but does keep me warm and dry. Simple and back to basics can work well.
Toddy, I'm sorry to hear about your friend's tragedy. But it's still an isolated event -- millions of people use synthetics in outdoors environments without fire mishaps.
Sure, tragedies happen. Under all kinds of circumstances. But people get a little irrational about some of these risks. Particularly in a climate where people often don't have camp fires. (And remember, burning canvas tents happened in years past...)
Mind you, I'm putting myself up as a big defender of synthetics.
While I own two Goretex jackets, I seldom where them in other than in the city. I think for most (read: almost any) outdoor purpose a natural fabric is better. (Wool, wool, wool...)
I just feel there's a too much handwringing about goretex.
(Note, there's a typo above -- it should read "I'm NOT putting myself up as a big defender of synthetics" -- just want to be clear...)
treadlightly
28-11-2009, 21:24
Maybe there is a case for using wool as the main weatherproof layer during the British autumn, winter and spring? Warm when wet, surprisingly water resistant and breathes well.
I've always been pleasantly surprised at how well it performs in rain.
Dogwood I don't think I've made myself clear.
I'm a natural fibres fan but I freely admit I use goretex.
I genuinely believe that there is no one 'do it all everywhere' fabric.
Mind you, wool comes pretty close :D
MacAlpine came to the judgement for the throne. The others of suitable rank were dressed to show status, wealth, power and influence.
He wore a jacket of tanned Salmon skins.
Guess who they chose as king ?
The man in the cagoule :D
Do you think our ancestors knew the weather, and that a king who couldn't deal with it would be no damned use ? :D
I have friends whose Buffalo shirts look like they've been spattered with carbon (burn holes), still serviceable but kind of trashed. Goretex is the same. For choice I don't wear it near fire.
Maybe it's the way we camp and wander here :dunno: fires are kind of commonplace.
cheers,
Toddy
I would say the coldest I've ever been on a mountain or in the bush and the closest I feel I've ever been to hypothermia was decending from the Pinnacles track on the Coromandel here in NZ I was wearing my single layer Ventile jacket a woolen sweater and a polypro baselayer Poly cotton trousers and a pair of sympatex ( nylon) water proof leggings All my top layers were soaked through the ambient temp was well above freezing but it wasn't warm and I was chilled and had to keep moving to keep warm. The problem was of course the dry kit in my bergen would have been soaked if I'd have worn that as the Ventile jacket would not have kept the rain out... I didn't really wear that Ventile jacket much after that.
Most of us have had bad experiences with specific bits of kit, I got absolutely soaked to the skin and partially frozen whilst climbing Buachaille Etive Mòr during a winter climb. I was wearing a North Face Mountain Jacket at the time with little more than a T-Shirt underneath as I knew that my exertions would keep me warm. It didn't work out quite like that. Every one of us were caught out in the same way and nearly all of us had done the mountain and arctic warfare cadre.
The next day I took a cheap Keela innovation 7 jacket onto the hill and was the only dry person out of the lot of us to come off the hill. I have worn Ventile up there for the likes of Am Bodach and running the Aonach Eagach ridge and not had too many problems.
I should point out that I have a double layer, a single layer and a combination jacket that's double in some places and single in others. I also have ventile shirts for summer use (underneath a single layer windshirt they are ideal when it rains).
I have never said that Ventile is waterproof, it's not, it's water resilient and people should be aware of this when they buy a jacket as it effects what you use as a base and a mid layer.
Someone mentioned Montaine jackets, I like them as well. I have one here which I have had for years.
It's very much horses for courses and as Toddy said getting the right mix for all conditions in one jacket I wouldn't say is impossible (we all need hope), but more than highly unlikely.
steven andrews
29-11-2009, 14:47
I would probably opt for Gore-Tex if I was out in the chucking rain for hours at a time - but I never am. Ventile is my outer of choice, generally over merino base layers and wool or polyester fleece mid-layers.
I have been impressed by the water resistant properties of proofed single layer Ventile.
It is as water proof as I will ever need and I love the comfort and breathability of my Ventile smocks.
Thinking about it, I haven't worn my Gore-Tex jacket for years.
I was thinking about this today when I was out on me bike.
I've got jackets made of heavy cotton stuff for working and playing in the woods (olive drab), but I have a modern techy fabric jacket for being out on the bike (bright red). I don't have any ventile clothing because its expensive.
This works best for me.
At this time of year, I like to have a wooly base layer for the lot.
My tuppence.
Rob
:)
So you reccomend Salmon Skins?
Why not whale intestines, easier to sew.
John Fenna
29-11-2009, 17:37
My current "smart" jacket is a Paramo lined Ventile from Hilltrek...for bushyness I am still wearing my older and more battered Ventile, mainly over wool and for realy rough work a tight weave canvas jacket over wool.....
My Gortex stuff (mainly supurb Scandinavian stuff) gets the odd airing (if it is horribly wet out and the other stuff is in the wash) but it is not quite as comfortable to wear for long periods, though it does work!
My legwear is either 5:11 polycotton, Fjallraven Polycotton, Gabardine RAF surplus (thanks Jed) or if it is very wet Hilltrek Ventile.
This is across the board - from city to bushy - though if out for a couple of days a poncho and overtrousers come with me - but rarely get used!
Most breathable waterproof fabrics do not work if they are wetted out on the surface and tend to be noisy to wear (especially cheap ones) so as a sweaty person I soon get wet from condensed perspiration which soaks back to the body no matter how good your layering system...
A puncture in a synthetic membrane waterproof is curtains for its integrity - Ventile is easily repaired.....
As to melt problems - I used to smoke a pipe and ruined many a fleece and synthetic waterproof top with sparks...wol and Ventile barely got marked!
So you reccomend Salmon Skins?
Why not whale intestines, easier to sew.
But salmon skins are easily available, whales are damned hard work to catch.
In the not so distant past it was said that one could walk dry shod across rivers on the backs of the red fish :)
I thought walrus intestines were the ones to choose anyway ? :confused:
cheers,
M