Survival Tip????

[charley beale]

I know this isnt entirely a bushcraft question but am going to post anyway as my curiosity gets the better of me. I've heard that a valid method of staving off hypothermia is to climb into a plastic bag with another naked human. Has anyone ever tried this and would it work?

And would being naked actually help? ;)

[Goose]

Never had to try it myself, but I remember reading a while ago that if the people in the bag are of the opposite sex the heat transfer is improved by 5%!

Not sure if it is true or not, but it is a fact that I remembered in case I went down with hypothermia and had to use this method ;)

[weekend_warrior]

I know this isnt entirely a bushcraft question but am going to post anyway as my curiosity gets the better of me. I've heard that a valid method of staving off hypothermia is to climb into a plastic bag with another naked human. Has anyone ever tried this and would it work?

And would being naked actually help? ;)

In an emergency in the wild, sharing bodily warmth is a good way to rewarm someone. Obviously, hospitals have much more efficient methods. I think you're refering to the bright orange plastic survival bags.

If it was an emergency i'd remove any damp clothing, but not get the person naked before trying to warm them - probably in a sleeping bag(s) rather than the plastic sack - condensation would cause dampness and heat loss.

Mind you, if the other party was female, naked might promote er... warming by friction! :yelrotflm

[g4ghb]

I have been involved in a number of hypo incidents (I also do a very good impression of a Hypo case btw - we assess mountain leaders in their skills with spotting / treating;) )

I personally don't think the naked bit is a good idea (unless both are not hypothermic:lmao: ) but gradual warming via body heat transfer is a great (and the recomended) procedure for stabilising the condition and promoting recovery

The key is to heat at the rate you got 'cold' ie fast if you fall in a icy river but slow and steady (get in the ol' bag) if has been a gradual cooling over hours

hope this answers the question

btw resisting the obvious temptation to offer ..... :o

[wilts-bushcraft]

too true peeps remove damp and wet clothing and get into your sleeping bag try not to mave the hypo victim and warm naturally not by the fire / car heater as rapid heating has its own problems !!!!!

[hawsome34]

As a few have said the important thing is the rewarm, which is done as close to the rate thety cooled.

Always good to use a kisoo to cut down windchill or any makreshift shelter, and get some good insulation under the patient, try to get them warmer, by adopting the feotal position, and a couple of warm people to provide heat either side. give sips of water, not gulps, and don't move until there core and extremities are re warmed. And then only if really neccessary.

But while the patient is recieving treatment why not try the naked bodies in a plastic bag, even though I think someone is tryna pull your leg. But could well be fun trying : ;):

Good luck, dont get too carried away though, could well dehydrate and become a patient yourself. :lmao:

Ste

[RovingArcher]

I think the idea of removing the clothing is that leaving it on, will reduce the amount of body heat getting to the hypothermic individual. Warming a hypothermic individual to quickly would most likely cause their death, in that the cold blood would go rushing to the core of the body, deepening the hypothermia. In some instances, this has caused heart attacks.

[Brian Curnel]

I know that this is a factaul way to rewarm a hypo victim.. Your clothing is an insulator against the elements, therefore keeping your body heat close to your body and not allowing it to escape. By removing your clo0thing down to undergarments you can effectively transfer body heat (sharing warmith) There is a rule of thumb also; If victim fell into Hypothermia fast warm up fast say by a hot fire and wool blankets, but if fell into it over a period of hours then re-warming should be done body to body over an extended time slowly. Just like frostbite you would'nt put a frostbitten hand in hot water, same rule applies to Hypo victims. PS make sure you remove their clothing as well.

As for the female counterpart...all I can say is don't go in the bush with your buddies :lmao:

[Alchemist]

I have had 2 cases of hypo in groups I have led.
I dont realistically think that getting naked would have been very smart in either situation. The weather was ****ty in both cases and removing clothing would have stripped away the body warmth rapidly before anyone got in a bag. There was also not enough extra layers to go on the vicitim in the first episode because we had no sleeping bag or spare clothes.
Taking off wet outer clothing is a definate yes because of the reasons mentioned (easy heat transfer, no cold wet stuff in the bag).
Getting the second man in the bag is also a definate yes. To give heat and morale.
One piece of kit I would highly recommend, not to stray too far from the point, is something called a Zarsky sack. I hope that is the right spelling. It is an emergency shelter, the group sits inside on the edges and it makes a dome shape. It is surprisingly warm and lovely just from body heat.
The first time it was a female. But she was one of those where we were all going to chip in for the brave man who did get naked with her. No man dared, not even for a monkey!
The second victim was male. We drew straws.

[Spikey DaPikey]

Been reading this thread with intrest, and this is my take on it...

If you trying to warm someone, to save there life (if its that bad) i really dont think the thought of having sex would come into it !

Maybe im just weird LOL

[Stuart]

gentlemen please remember that this is a family forum, can we refrain from the sexual inuendos.

I will leave you to edit your own posts

[hawsome34]

[QUOTE=Alchemist]One piece of kit I would highly recommend, not to stray too far from the point, is something called a Zarsky sack. I hope that is the right spelling. It is an emergency shelter, the group sits inside on the edges and it makes a dome shape. QUOTE]


Alchemist, the spelling is correct. The shelter is also known as a bothy, or kisoo. The size varies from a 2man shelter right upto one suitable for 8 people. Like you I have used these a fair bit, and have found them great, for taking short breaks on wet hill sides to get a quick warm to boost morale, taking lunch breaks. And the odd casualty on the hill.

Just make sure when you you take a break through choice, to get out of the wind, and party member with wind stays out. Can get very warm quickly in these shelters, and stuffy!! :27:

Check the link below to give you an idea of the designof the kit if your curious.

www.cheaptents.com/TerraNova.htm

[george]

Wet garments should be removed carefully and replaced with dry (preferably warm) garments. {4-20} Blankets and/or an insulated sleeping bag may be used to retain body heat, and efforts should be made to shield the victim from wind chill. Cold sleeping bags should be prewarmed with a volunteer prior to placing a victim inside to prevent core temperature heat loss. Prehospital personnel may lie (stripped to their underwear) alongside a conscious victim underneath the covers to assist in rewarming.

From this site: http://www.hypothermia.org/weinberg.htm

Getting naked and into a sleeping bag with a hypothermia victim is not a particularly good intervention however unless you are certain that the volunteer will not also succumb to hypothermia - that means that the sleeping bag must be adequate to ensure that you you are not just chilling the volunteer by asking them to get into a cold bag with a cold body in it! Make sure that there is adequate provision for keeping the volunteer warm - there have been stories of sleeping bags being found with two bodies in them - both the warmer and the warmee dead of hypothermia.

George

[charley beale]

Thank you for all your comments I feel vindicated that I wasnt the gullible victim of a wind up with this bit of info. I know where this thread could have gone so apologies if it offended anyone, was just curious.

[pierre girard]

I know this isnt entirely a bushcraft question but am going to post anyway as my curiosity gets the better of me. I've heard that a valid method of staving off hypothermia is to climb into a plastic bag with another naked human. Has anyone ever tried this and would it work?

And would being naked actually help? ;)

I've used this method. A nephew fell through the ice on a snowshoe trip. It was about minus 20 F. My brother was on one side of him. I was on the other. Skin to skin heat is one of the directives for treating hypothermia. Never heard of the plastic bag. We used a couple of sleeping bags. We also forced hot drinks on him.

PG

[jamesraykenney]

<snip>.
One piece of kit I would highly recommend, not to stray too far from the point, is something called a Zarsky sack. I hope that is the right spelling. It is an emergency shelter, the group sits inside on the edges and it makes a dome shape. It is surprisingly warm and lovely just from body heat.
<snip>


I did a 'google' search on Zarsky sack and only found a few links, and NO pictures or links to buy one...
Where do you get them???

[Nemisis]

Try there more common name bothy bags http://www.completeoutdoors.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=100&products_id=158 this is best price i've seen for a two-man version
Dave

[jamesraykenney]

Try there more common name bothy bags http://www.completeoutdoors.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=100&products_id=158 this is best price i've seen for a two-man version
Dave

Just how small do these things pack down to???
The one picture of one packed that I found made it look almost a foot long and half a foot wide!!!
That is almost the size of my entire BugOutBag!!!

[g4ghb]

I know them as a kisu

hears some more links to try..

http://www.fieldandtrek.com/src/ukwm/cat_id/EQUIACCESURV/product-Outdoor-Designs-Standard-Emergency-Shelter-25334.htm

http://www.fieldandtrek.com/src/ukwm/cat_id/EQUIACCESURV/product-Outdoor-Designs-Large-Emergency-Shelter-25335.htm

http://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/Cat/110157?history=search%20result s
and I can also thoughrally recomend them for group shelter in the worst of weather!

[hawsome34]

The shelter is also known as a bothy, or kisoo. The size varies from a 2man shelter right upto one suitable for 8 people. Like you I have used these a fair bit, and have found them great, for taking short breaks on wet hill sides to get a quick warm to boost morale, taking lunch breaks. And the odd casualty on the hill.

Just make sure when you you take a break through choice, to get out of the wind, and party member with wind stays out. Can get very warm quickly in these shelters, and stuffy!! :27:

Check the link below to give you an idea of the designof the kit if your curious.

www.cheaptents.com/TerraNova.htm

the pack size of a 2man bothy, is around the same as a lightweight hammock. In measurements around 150mm long x 120mm diameter

Hope this help, there are many places you can get them from,

Aside of Zarsky sak,on google search look for bothy bag, or kisu/kisoo

[Carcajou Garou]

Placing the person in a blanket/sleeping bag as a wrap (to let in heat, fire) once they are " totally undressed" and giving "warm"(not hot) liquids (restore core temperature) with wind shelter, if possible a drying fire is our practise. CG :yo:

[Tabber]

I think the idea of removing the clothing is that leaving it on, will reduce the amount of body heat getting to the hypothermic individual. Warming a hypothermic individual to quickly would most likely cause their death, in that the cold blood would go rushing to the core of the body, deepening the hypothermia. In some instances, this has caused heart attacks.

Hi there, I thought this might be a good first post for me, as I have a medical background and (nearly) went down with hypothermia last year!

You are correct that warming a casualty too fast can be harmful. In hospital, we aim to warm a hypothermic patient by about 1 degree per hour. This is usually done by running warm fluids in IV, using a warm air blanket, filling the bladder with warm saline (not pleasant, but has to be done!) and in extreme cases by running warm saline in through chest drains/abdominal drains.

The problem with warming too fast is that (if the patient has been hypo for a long time) metabolites build up in the peripheries because of anaerobic respiration. When the body is heated it reacts by vasodilating and all these metabolites rush back to the heart mucsle, causing arryhthmias and/or cardiogenic shock, leading to death.

In a prehospital setting, the best action to take is as others have said here. First check the casualties ABC's then remove them from the environment, get them in dry clothes and a doss bag and then warm them with hot packs or body heat. Most importantly though, send for help as soon as you can and keep monitoring their consious level and vital signs.

Hope that helps!

[soup_monger]

Good first post,but,can you give me the laymans of "vasodilating"?

P.S Tabber is a good handle for a medic. :D

[RovingArcher]

According to the med. dictionary, it is Inducing vasodilation, which is the widening of the lumen of blood vessels .

[soup_monger]

Lumen of blood vessels?... :confused:


Does vasodilation mean that your veins expand and you absorb the things that have built up during your hypothermic condition?

[Tabber]

Basically yes, your veins and arteries expand, taking in fluid from the tissues surrounding them. The metabolites (which form in the tissues because of lack of oxygen) 'follow' the fluid and enter the circulation, ending up at the heart where they can affect the heart muscles contacting.

I don't think it is much of a problem in a survival situation (ie in a shelter in a cold environment) as you wont be able to raise someone's core temperature very fast without extra help. Pretty much anything you can do to warm them up is a bonus, for example dry clothes, in a sleeping bag, into your car with the heating on and drive to help (if you were out for a walk, say). A bigger danger would be burns from putting the patient too close to a fire or putting hot packs too close to the skin.

[amott69]

this is somthing i had to do many years ago serving in ireland as a young rifleman, we were on a 4 day patrol and on the first day i managed to fall into a bog it must have been about -5, with only a wool jumper and spare socks to change into you can imagine i was abit cold.That night i was in a bit of a mess and looking at my mate cossy in his maggot and the thought of becoming a block of ice i jumped in his sleeping bag with him and pulled my maggot over the top of us, had a great sleep.The body heat dried my clothes out and i sure that had i not done this i would have been in a bad way by morning.If you have to do this with someone of the same sex keep your hands to your self

[sodajoe]

Boy, it's getting warm in here. :o
:lmao:

[Zodiak]

I know this isnt entirely a bushcraft question but am going to post anyway as my curiosity gets the better of me. I've heard that a valid method of staving off hypothermia is to climb into a plastic bag with another naked human. Has anyone ever tried this and would it work?

And would being naked actually help? ;)

I think this has been pretty well covered here but having been there I would say that you definatley do not want to be naked in a polybag as it wil touch your skin and conduct your body heat away!

Remove anything that is keeping you cold, like wet trousers and get in your sleeping bag if you have one, if not get yourself insulated from the cold as best you can, but don't stay in contact with the bag.

My personal preference for poly bags is sit in it with the bag upside down and a little hole cut for your face. That way the warm air get trapped better, you can still see whats going on outside and you can minmisise the area of contact with the ground.

I am not sure where I got that from, I think it may have been a Ray Mears book ;)

Anyway last time I got Hypothermia was capsizing a dinghy in the North Sea without a wetsuit, sitting in a poly bag wouldn't have helped as I would have just drifted off to Holland :puppy_dog

[Don'tkillbill]

Every Saturday night. Yeah right I'm married!

[Hawkeye The Noo]

In november 2005 I spent 6 days training in first aid at glenmore lodge with the British Association of Ski Patrollers; this question of naked in bag was asked. We were told that it was a bad idea as unless you can very slowly heat the person up and sustain the slow reheating process you could put the person in more danger by reheating them to fast and being unable to sustain this they slip into a further hypo session. It was better if possible to evacuate without rewarming statistically as more seemed to survive.

This is for severe hypothermia, not mild

"After carrying out first aidtreatment, ensure that the casualty is well insulated from further heat loss. Do not attempt the rewarming of a severely hypothermic casualty- also if breathing is not detected do not attempt CPR, treat tha casualty as alive and evacuate to hospital promptly." BASP manual 13:2

Basically the life is better preserved in a semi cryogenic state and is safer than incomplete unsustainable attempts.

Jamie

[Tony]

I appreciate that this is a valid question but please make sure it stays to the point. So far it's gone better than I thought it would considering the potential for being sidetracked, thanks for that. Don't let it degenerate. ;)

[Hoodoo]

As I understand it, the current thinking on this is, if at all possible, warm up the core and try not to warm up the limbs. As rightly noted, warming up the limbs results in rapid vasodilation (opening of the constricted blood vessels) and the cold blood stored in the limbs will return to core of the body, lowering the temperature. If you are severely hypothermic already, this could be fatal.

[spamel]

The moving of hypothermic people is very dangerous. As I recall, the Navy were losing people that were extracted from the sea in a hypothermic state. They realised that because they were hanging in a standing position, the blood was moving around their body and this did them in. That is why they lift them lying down in that cagey thingy now.

[Lithril]

The current thinking on this is to make sure the core doesn't get any colder, but don't do anything, I'll check but I think they're even boycotting hot drinks on this at the moment. The idea being is that the core will sort itself out if it can stay warm but any outside disturbance can redirect bloody to other parts of the body and not where its needed,if kept warm and given time it should recover.

[stevo]

Completed an emergency aid course for the outdoors last week....

Current medical theory states that you should not 'actively re-warm' a patient.......prevent the casualty from getting any colder.....remove wet clothes, get them into dry ones, 'warm not hot' drinks are good....get them into a tent.....warm moist atmosphere is best.....then get them out of there

if you try to rewarm them, then you will encourage blood flow away from the core to the extremities....causing big problems....

obviously if you are days from help, then you may have to try to rewarm them.....try to do it at the same pace as they cooled.....get them out of there..

stevo

[spamel]

Strangely enough, my older brother is in Norway at the moment and he once told me that they don't drink hot drinks, but warm drinks. If they introduce hot drinks into their body, the core temp. rises and the body thinks it is hot. Therefore, it starts to sweat and you lose more heat that way. It's sort of the reverse of a heat stroke victim having a jerrycan of freezing cold water poured over his head, not good and don't ask me how I know that!!! (If I wasn't a gibbering wreck after that incident, I reckon I would have decked the Troop Commander that did that!)

[Les Marshall]

We were not totally naked and she was very cold and there were other people watching, but by god it was fun! (for me anyway) :p

[Roy's Badger]

Most of the info seems on the money. When someone goes down with hypothermia;

Stop what you're doing
Seek shelter from (ALL) the elements, and make sure the casualty is not in direct contact with the floor (unlike a certain US Air Force "Arctic" instructor who tole us he would keep warm by 'thermalising' as the ground was the only thing in nature that gives out more heat than it takes away! Why is there an arctic at all, then?!)
Strip of wet clothes (but not naked)
Gently rewarm using an indirect heat source (so body heat in a sleeping bag would suffice, but if the other person is naked, they run the risk of also becoming hypo)
Give warm, sweet drinks (never hot)
Monitor the rest of the group!

Spamel, you're refering to 'Post rescue collapse' which is indeed cold blood being forced into the core, which drops the temp more and can lead to death. Biggest danger of this is when the casualty has been in the water for some time.

[Freds Dad]

You do not need to be butt naked but if your patient (warmee) is put in a survival bag or sleeping bag then both the person doing the warming (warmer) and the warmee need to have as few items of clothing on their chast and stomach as would be suitable.They just have to undo their coats or jackets to remove the insulation effect. They then hug each other, front to front. This then warms the patients/warmee's vital organs which are, sort of, at the top and front of the trunk. The rest of their bodies are kept clothed. If, howerver, we have a patient who is soaked then remove any wet clothing. A WARM drink is preferable to hot as if it was too hot it may cause the patient to go into shock if the core is too low. Most other things about hypothermia such as shelter is common sence. I once had hypothermia. I went to a party on my motorbike and forgot my waterproofs. It was a long trip of 40 miles on a cold winters night. Half way there I was caught in a down pour but carried on and endured the birthday party soaked to the skin. when I rolled out of the hall there had been a frost and all the roads where icy. I then had to travel the 40 miles home at 15 to 20 miles an hour from Havehill to Ipswich. By the time I got home i was hypothermic. I teach the chest to chest method to my Scout troop. The girls always squeal when i tell them that it's best if one of the boys get in the bag with them. funnily the boys are not keen either. No doubt by the time they are 17 things will all seem different.