View Full Version : Dead wood
The dead wood in the woods is a habitat for many species of insects and many birds depend on it for food, but we as bushcrafters use this wood as a source of fuel for our fires. Does this bother you in any way.............Jon
More info here http://www.rspb.org.uk/birds/advice/woodpeckerdeadwood/other_wildlife.asp
I feel I need to add that this comes from an arguement I was having with another member of the volunteer group I am in, who does not think that bushcrafters are all that good as far as nature goes.
First of all, I don't cut ancient dead pines. That is sacrilegious! And with the population density where I come from is so low that I don't have any real impact even if I burn a lot of dry wood. And larvae normally bore in bigger trees than I use for firewood.
There is more dead wood standing in the forests now then it has been for centuries. No problem I think. It is the commercial logging that is the big, bad wolf.
Torjus Gaaren
bambodoggy
16-01-2006, 20:13
I think the key word here is moderation :)
And as bushcrafters we should be remembering to scatter seeds and plant saplings from shooters so that as we take so we also give back. :)
Bam. :D
It maters imensly but as Bam has said in moderation and more importantly gather your wood over a vast area instead of one part of the wood.
The following extract is taken from the BTCV woodland book.
Rotting wood, both on and off the tree, is a very important habitat for invertebrates. The information below refers to fallen deadwood.
Clearing up and removing or burning rotting timber is an act of vandalism, which in a single act can destroy an important invertebrate habitat. The general rule is that fallen, rotting wood should be left where it is. Large fallen trunks and branches are particularly valuable, and should never be rolled over, chopped up or otherwise disturbed. This can easily happen, either by misguided 'tidying up', or as thoughtless destruction by children for example.
Large dead or dying branches on trees should not be removed unless they are a danger to the public.
Old, rotting wood should always be left where it is, unless you have to move it, for example, to clear a path. In that case, move it carefully the smallest distance, and leave it under similar conditions of light and shade, the same way up, and with the same orientation.
Newly cut wood
Thinning, coppicing or clearance work in woodlands produces a large volume of cut material. For commercial operations, much of this material will be removed from the wood. Where management is mainly for conservation or amenity, commercial use of the cut material may not be feasible. In this case, larger cut material is best left where it falls. Sned off the smaller side and top branches.
Scattered, newly cut coppice poles and thinnings look untidy, and the temptation is to stack them in a neat pile. This should only be done if the wood is going to be removed and reused. Cut poles, branches and trunks are of much greater value to invertebrates if scattered through the wood, rather than piled up, although piles do have some value. Scattered wood not only gives more useful habitat per volume of wood, but it is also less likely to be disturbed in the future, as it will not be attractive to vandals or firewood gatherers. A few piles of cut wood at the edge of a sunny ride or glade is acceptable. If the stacks are likely to get disturbed, either by deliberate or thoughtless action, some old stock netting or similar covering the stack and buried around the base should prove a deterrent. Log habitat piles should be no bigger than about 1m (3') high by 2-3m (6-10') long.
Where stacked wood is going to be removed, it's best stacked somewhere where it will not attract invertebrates or other animals, or the habitat will be destroyed when the stack is taken apart and moved. Preferably stack outside the wood, in a barn or open-sided shelter, or partly cover the stack with plastic to reduce the entry of invertebrates.
Brushwood
The smaller branches and twiggy growth produced from felling and clearing takes up a lot of space. The option of burning versus other methods is discussed on page 86. Cut material is useful for dead hedging (see coppicing) access barriers, or it can be bundled or chipped for uses outside the wood (see felling, clearing and extraction). 'Habitat piles' of twiggy material, left in shady conditions in the wood, are of little value for wildlife. Such material further reduces light reaching the woodland floor, so damaging the woodland flora, and is a nuisance for access and management. Piles of brash left in open spaces can be a quick way of producing a scrub or woodland edge type habitat, with bramble and other plants rapidly disguising the brash and providing a habitat for birds, small mammals and other creatures.
This can normally only 'use up' a small proportion of the total brushwood produced. For invertebrates, brushwood is of greater value if bundled tightly, rather than in a loose pile, as well as taking up less space. The close packing provides relatively constant moist conditions in the centre of the bundles. Tie the material as for fascines (see coppicing), and stack the bundles in dappled shade.
Creating deadwood habitats
In addition to the procedures above for cut material, other measures can be taken to increase the amount of deadwood in a woodland.
In commercial woodlands, thinning operations favour the straightest and healthiest trees, and remove those that are misshapen or damaged. In non-commercial woodlands, it's possible instead to keep trees which have splits, sap runs, fungal growth or other signs which indicate premature rotting. Jagged stumps, splits and holes in the trunks of trees are potentially very useful, and should not be treated or tidied up. One can even go so far as to damage an otherwise healthy tree, although this is best done without publicity!
Newly felled timber can also be brought in from elsewhere, into an area of new woodland. Trunks of trees or large branches from thinning operations, storm damage or other sources can be transported to the wood, and placed on the ground in dappled shade where they are unlikely to be disturbed. Trunks can also be set upright, to provide standing deadwood habitat. This should only be done if you have the skills and equipment to handle and position the timber. Choose a location where the dead tree will not be a danger to the public in following years as it rots. Set it upright in a deep hole, secured by wire guys as necessary.
Dead wood should be removed only if it is part of an activte managemant plan.
If you use dead wood make sure you leave it behind after you finished with it where possible that way you are not taking just borrowing it for a short time.
By the way there is more forest and woodland in the UK than in the last 200 years
most has been result of commercial forestry that includes parts some of the wonderful semi-ancient woodlands of oak etc
for gods sake its not like we burn an entire forest, this reminds me of the advert with the guy who saves all the animals then blows his nose on a hanky and feels bad because he killed some germs :rolleyes:
Ogri the trog
16-01-2006, 23:23
I think that individually, we're OK to take and burn just enough to keep us fed and warmed.
There might be a problem however at a big meet or at a place which regularly caters for our firecraft practices.
Whilst on holiday in Australia recently, barbeque areas in parkland have bins that are stocked from local wood yards (offcuts and such) so that picnic-ers had no need to raid the forrested areas for fallen wood.
Perhaps we should either take along a supply of wood to meet-up's or arrange a supply from known sustainable areas.
Ogri the trog
Nature supplies far more Deadwood (good programme, that) than I can ever hope to use.
Keep safe. Keep what you need. keep warm :morpheus:
ps. Whats with the "Wilderness Clan" avatars????? It's not a "splinter" group, is it :lmao:
dwood/other_wildlife.asp[/url]
I feel I need to add that this comes from an arguement I was having with another member of the volunteer group I am in, who does not think that bushcrafters are all that good as far as nature goes.
Using a car to get out in the woods is worse for the environment than making a fire with thought and precaution.
Being a mountainbiker I am very often confronted with a holier-than-you attitude of what I call "Autofahrer zu Fuß" (=motorist on foot). Those f.....s who drive happily 100km with the car to walk a couple of kilometer on foot through the wood. Then blaming me for destroying nature.
Bunch of Vibram-fascists.
Hey I questioned the car while back,
check out the replies I got :eek:
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=9728&highlight=transport
Klenchblaize
17-01-2006, 09:59
Using a car to get out in the woods is worse for the environment than making a fire with thought and precaution.
Being a mountainbiker I am very often confronted with a holier-than-you attitude of what I call "Autofahrer zu Fuß" (=motorist on foot). Those f.....s who drive happily 100km with the car to walk a couple of kilometer on foot through the wood. Then blaming me for destroying nature.
Bunch of Vibram-fascists.
Here we are back to "moderation" again: A mountainbiker of bushcraft sensibilities is one thing but what of that same wooldland route when it attracts the earth gripping/stripping tyres of 50 less considerate bike heads?
Nothing against bike users as I cycle daily into London although the percentage of people who do likewise and jump red lights is about the same as the number of pre-owned BMW's you find in bus lanes.
Cheers
K
bambodoggy
17-01-2006, 10:40
I think that individually, we're OK to take and burn just enough to keep us fed and warmed.
There might be a problem however at a big meet or at a place which regularly caters for our firecraft practices.
Whilst on holiday in Australia recently, barbeque areas in parkland have bins that are stocked from local wood yards (offcuts and such) so that picnic-ers had no need to raid the forrested areas for fallen wood.
Perhaps we should either take along a supply of wood to meet-up's or arrange a supply from known sustainable areas.
Ogri the trog
You're not wrong Ogri, I use a campsite in Sussex with some mates of mine and we always have to bring our own wood with us. The other campers have quite literally picked the place clean, there's hardly a stick or twig anywhere and certainly not any fuel sized logs to be had.
Luckily in my line of work I'm seldom short of a bit of wood for burning and it most often comes out of gardens where it was never going to be allowed by the owners to rot on the ground. So in a way I'm helping the campsite trees by not touching their wood.
It does mean my mph goes up in the 4x4 though as I've got an extra tonne or so to lug....so not as friendly that way...life's a beach on some things init! :D
Bam. :)
Topcat02
17-01-2006, 11:30
Interesting discussion. It presupposes that we light fires every time we go out.
If we do light a fire, but dont use wood, then we probably use petrol/gas/chemical means of lighting a fire for hot drinks, etc.
Environmentally is this any better than using some dead wood? If you dont return to that particular area and light a fire, then you are allowing the area to recover and thus minimising your impact.
Common sense, and balance are definately in order.
:D
Right, I'm off to plant a twig. :)
ilovemybed
17-01-2006, 11:46
I can't see it's a problem. Everything that happens in nature affects something else. If we don't burn it, the other beasties will get to do what they want with it. If they get a share and we get a share, surely that's fine? We are, after all, living creatures! As the common theme seems to be going - only take what you need, and do your best to minimise the impact.
After all, If you're not outside heating yourself burning wood then you're in your house heated by electricity created from burning oil, gas or coal. I know not many other animals or plants are competing for those resources directly but, well, the power stations were built on what was their homes, and we're digging up loads of habitats looking for more not to mention what's happening from the waste generated. We can't just stop any of it, we should just use discretion.
gregorach
17-01-2006, 14:16
It's a thorny question to be sure...
I suspect that in the UK, the main problem with this type of habitat is islandisation. It's no use having the dead wood if you don't have enough nearby resevoirs of the species that colonise it, so you really need large, contiguous areas of fully mature woodland to sustain biodiversity. I suspect that many of the native species that specialise in this habitat are already pratically (if not totally) extinct, at least in most areas of the country.
I also suspect that the really important habitat which is most under threat is standing, dead, mature trees. No bushcrafter is ever going to cut down a dead mature oak in the course of bushcraft activities - we simply don't pack that sort of equipment, nor would we have any use for such a thing. How significant that bundle of sticks for your fire really is, I'm not at all sure.
However, in areas which are subject to severe pressure (long-term "travellers" camps spring to mind) I have seen woods cleared to such an extent that you can't find a single decent stick of firewood even after the site's been abandoned for several years.
So, as with most of these things, I guess the correct answer is "it really depends on a lot of other factors". ;) :)
Thanks for all the comments............I do use dead wood for fires and will continue to do so, but I do think that if a wood is stripped of deadwood the wood will become dead as far as wildlife is concerned as so much of the wildlife depends on it. I am amazed though that many of you are not bothered by this. I know that in a large woodland or forest we will have little impact, but many of the woods around me are quite small. Perhaps lots of you live near big woods and are not bothered, because of the little impact...................Jon
As a manager of several woodlands in the north west area, and a conservation biologist i have to say that taking a minimal amount of dead wood from the woodland is not a bad thing, yes the BTCV handbook says never, but this field of study is constantly evolving, and yes the percentage of dead wood habitat compared to living wood is small, but lets put it into perspective, all of the countrysied in the UK is managed land, if we really wanted to promote biodiversity to such an extent, the management of woodlands would be zero, allowing the land to revert to what is called its climax - thick, choking, woodland. The British Isles has been actively managed for 500,000 years, from paleolithic times to the present, and as rightly stated, has never been as wooded for at least 200 years. If your in a woodland, look around you, if dead wood is plentyful, then use some, i do, i would be more worried about actual camp craft. If the woodland is young, with very little dead or dying wood, then leave it.
Yes dead wood is important, drastically so, but we have been using the woods for millenia for all sorts of reasons, we're lucky we live in an informed time and can make informed decisions.
And the BTCV handbook isn't the gospel!
no one said the BTCV hand books was the gospel and i never said that you should never remove dead wood. What i did say though is that dead wood is critical and should only be taken in moderation, the same as any other resource available to bushcraft.
Jon and i both posted links to show people that there is an issue with removing to much dead wood and as Bam has said and many of us have experienced there are many woods with out any dead wood in it thanks to campers and the like.
As said before, if it’s in moderation then I’ve no problem using dead wood. I’ll not take it if there’s little there or it’s obvious that people have been taking a lot. If there’s plenty though I’ll take what I need.
Going back to the original question. I think that as long as bushcrafters are thoughtful and informed people they’re a benefit to nature, the main reason is that they would be inclined to go out anyway, but now they are starting to understand how to lessen any damage as well as promote good things. I know bushcrafters that remove wire, litter etc whenever they have the opportunity, they do this because they’ve got a higher awareness of nature.
So, my opinion is that taking wood is fine as long as there’s plenty and there’s respect for the area with regard to clearing up etc
We’re all learning and the more we learn the better we’ll be at nurturing the world around us, few of us make the mistakes we made years ago…..
Interesting split there between campers and bushcrafters :)
I'm not an active bushcrafter but after following the forums here and elswhere I was under the impression that the vast majority of camping areas didn't allow open fires - or do you think the number of people wanting to get off the beaten track so to speak is on the increase?
Kane
In my experiance, certainly in the wooded areas I use there is no way I could make a significant impact on any habitat due to burning windfall wood, there is so much of the stuff, and as long as the collection is over a wide area, I dont think there is a problem
Cheers
Klenchblaize
18-01-2006, 11:52
Nature took care of any shortage back in 1987.
K
no one said the BTCV hand books was the gospel and i never said that you should never remove dead wood. What i did say though is that dead wood is critical and should only be taken in moderation, the same as any other resource available to bushcraft.
Jon and i both posted links to show people that there is an issue with removing to much dead wood and as Bam has said and many of us have experienced there are many woods with out any dead wood in it thanks to campers and the like.
Sorry, i didn't mean it in a derogetory sense, I still refer to the BTCV handbooks from time to time, in the world of joe public a little information sometimes goes a long way, when we're thinning throughout the winter months we still get people calling us tree killers and vandals. Tony is quite right in saying that in general bushcrafters are more in tune with the environment, and that we are all still learning. If you ever get the chance drop by mine and il'e show you around one of our woodlands, there's allways room for more dead wood, but dont be affraid to take it in moderation. ;)
pierre girard
19-01-2006, 07:18
The dead wood in the woods is a habitat for many species of insects and many birds depend on it for food, but we as bushcrafters use this wood as a source of fuel for our fires. Does this bother you in any way.............Jon
More info here http://www.rspb.org.uk/birds/advice/woodpeckerdeadwood/other_wildlife.asp
I feel I need to add that this comes from an arguement I was having with another member of the volunteer group I am in, who does not think that bushcrafters are all that good as far as nature goes.
Non issue where I live. There is so much dead wood on the ground - I have no problem with collecting it for firewood.
In heavily used areas of the BWCA, you are advised to gather your firewood well away from your campsite. As I seldom use the heavily traveled areas - I don't have much problem with this.
I've never been to europe, but my folks have and they tell me most of the forests are more like parks. In Germany, especially, they said the foresters must go around and pick up every dead branch that falls to the ground. They said our parks should look so clean.
PG
tagnut69
19-01-2006, 09:57
I think the key is to take only what you need, wander in all directions, so as not to strip just one area and be selective in what you take.
Somebody must have voted, as this thread has been bumped. I somehow misse this thread, but I see no harm in taking hanging branches that have snapped off higher up and are caught in lower branches. If you see forestry work going on and they leave loads of freshly trimmed branches, take some and use them. Maybe even stick some up a tree out of the way for next time. If they are off a main path, they won't be disturbed.
Saying that, the last few times I've been out, I have done what Wayland has been doing for years. No, not growing my hair, but using pinecones. This is a much under estimated resource, once they have done their job of scattering seeds, they make really good fuel. If you get the typical pine cone with thick tines or whatever they are called, they burn good and hot, will boil your billy in no time and are in vast numbers on the forest floors.
Don't use the long banana type pine cones, they are always wet and don't burn very well at all. This is one reason I never tried to use pine cones before, kids chucked one on the fire and nearly smoked me out. Wayland made a two minute camp cooker at Delamere from an old cooking oil drum, filled it with pine cones and cooked pork and apple sausages for us, they were wrapped in those tortilla thingies, and tasted great! All thanks to the humble pine cone.
I am not afraid to use to use dead wood, I have to much, it is what I heat the house with. I manage our woodlot, I only harvest what I need for winter, if the wood on the ground is getting thin, I will harvest some of the coppice's for next year or will drop a tree that needs to be dropped.
I've been banging on about pine cones for yonks and I keep expecting someone to say.... "What about the squirrels that eat the pine cones?"
I don't think there is any truly zero impact fuel source, with the possible exception of the sun, but I think the only losers with the pine cone solution is to make the grey tree rats have to work a bit harder.
I don't have a problem with that.....
bambodoggy
05-05-2007, 17:16
We always used pinecones (from scots pines) for the family bbq when I was growing up.
My sister and I were sent off into the woods at the bottom of our garden to collect them in the mornings and we bbq'd with them that night.
The ones we collected where the dry dead brown open ones which have already realsed their nuts (which is what the squirrels are after) so taking them is as far as I can see totally harmless :D
Cheers,
Bam. :)
Whatever we do it will effect the enviroment somehow, even sitting at home watching t.v. Making fire's is difficult enough in this country without worrying about picking up dead wood, sure people would complain if you started chopping down the living stuff.
As i don't carry an axe when bushcrafting here it does mean that i have to use the detrious on the ground, but prefer to pick up recycled wood bit's if i can, looted a farmers bonfire leftovers not long ago but had to give it all a bash as i didnt want the bug's from it inside my sac, the destroyer of homes that i am :lmao:
Sure campsites that allow fires have been stripped of all dead wood, thats why they stock pile the stuff to sell to the punters. But as most large forest area's don't allow fire's im sure that the little bug's have plenty to live in?
Yes it does matter if we took lots but the small amount we use will not make a difference . I was more suprised as to who is able to get permission to light fires for the most part I use scout camps and the wood is in the form of pallets or builders waste little is natural or its on the coast and is in the form of drift wood .
Risclean
06-05-2007, 01:29
Removing fallen wood is likely to interfere with nutrient cycling.
The removal of brash from felling operations to use as woodfuel has lead to concern about nutrient depletion of forest soils. A lot of research has been carried out in this area.
Most UK woodland is considered to have very low amounts of deadwood.
It is important to bear in mind that living trees are only one part of woodland ecosystems.
I've been banging on about pine cones for yonks and I keep expecting someone to say.... "What about the squirrels that eat the pine cones?"
I don't think there is any truly zero impact fuel source, with the possible exception of the sun, but I think the only losers with the pine cone solution is to make the grey tree rats have to work a bit harder.
I don't have a problem with that.....
What do squirrels burn like?
Removing fallen wood is likely to interfere with nutrient cycling.
The removal of brash from felling operations to use as woodfuel has lead to concern about nutrient depletion of forest soils. A lot of research has been carried out in this area.
Most UK woodland is considered to have very low amounts of deadwood.
It is important to bear in mind that living trees are only one part of woodland ecosystems.
I thought this was due the deadwood been removed by poor forestry practice, not due to burning the wood on site on leaving the ash. Ash has very high levels of minerals which benefits many plants and fungi. You cant lump bushcraft practice in with commercial woodfuel industry. I burn dead wood, as it doesn't smoke. If the dead wood has started to used by detritavores or colonized by mosses it is not good to burn as it makes smoke and spits(woodlice explode :( ). The thing I like about bushcraft is that we are also become part the ecosystem not passive observers.
Gailainne
06-05-2007, 12:36
Interesting comment Xylaria, I was always under the impression that burning wood concentrated the minerals etc in the ash, which means the habitat gets the benefit that much quicker, although you can argue the bacteria and fungi miss out.
I think my stance on this is "do things in moderation". I understand now why so many of the people who turned up at Delamere packed in firewood.
Something I will take into account when planning a trip from now on, but I must be honest I have'nt been in a forest yet up here where there was'nt an abundance of dead wood both standing and windfallen, along with the everpresent but until recently overlooked pine cones ;)
Stephen
There are a few species of fungi that only grow on fire sites, of the species i can think of they are quite rare. Also I think cider orchards are dressed with wood ash on during winter festivals I dont know if is 'one of dem country things oo arrrghh!' or recycling phosphorus.
Moderation is key thing though. We do bring our own wood if we are have a bonfire etc. But I can make a cuppa with sticks. It is very dependant on your environment as well.
dommyracer
06-05-2007, 21:16
The thing I like about bushcraft is that we are also become part the ecosystem not passive observers.
I totally agree.
First time I've seen this thread and Adi Fiddlers reply made me feel suicidal. No offence. :banghead:
What do squirrels burn like?
A bit like rat but with a nutty flavour.....
bushtank
11-05-2007, 22:57
A bit like rat but with a nutty flavour.....
Did you enjoy that poll wayland :lmao:
Did you enjoy that poll wayland :lmao:
I never said I didn't like polls. I just commented on the glut of them we have at the moment... :p
demographic
16-05-2007, 18:04
I produce about half a bin of offcuts at work every day, sometimes one of the labourers picks it up sometimes it goes on the site fire.
Must get my woodburner sorted :o