View Full Version : goretex boots yes or not
Hi I´d like your opinion about.
Boots with goretex or not.
I have used goretexvboots but my feet become cold and dump, thats normal, what I´m doing wrong.
How you get a no goretex boot to goretex without its inconvenients.
Thanks
lardbloke
01-01-2006, 17:03
I have used gortex boots pretty extensively in all conditions and can say its swings and roundabouts really.
Are the boots you use leather or man made materials?
I find all gortex boots normally after a good tramping about can leave your feet a little damp etc (it depends on how much you sweat). The material cannot keep up with the demand of trying to expell excess vapour and becomes bogged in your socks or boot inner.
You can always try goretex socks. I use these with my really old boots (I like them because they are comfy and no tech advancements). They generally get a good layer of dubbing and stay pretty dry when wearing the socks. The socks are much cheaper than purchasing an expensive pair of boots that may let you down when you are upto it in the elememts.
I'd advise against goretex in boots, as far as I can see it's pointless. Once the surface of the boot becomes wet and dirty it stops being breathable hence damp, sweaty feet. I'd go for a quality leather boot e.g. Scarpa and maybe a goretex sock.
TallMikeM
01-01-2006, 17:37
I have a pair of Brasher gore-tex boots. Had 'em about 5 years now and they're still going strong.
I find them OK to use in winter, but they can be a bit warm otherwise. For tat reason, the next pair of boots I get (soon) will be unlined.
I'm getting on fine with mine with it in
On the other hand I don't think it's any better then a good pair of boots without it.
I have a pair of La Sportiva Makalu's which have no gortex or other liners and I have never had wet feet in them. They are pretty much one piece leather and just don't let the water in. I was working in a swamp once and still had dry feet at the end of the day, they are superb. They are mountain boots (3-4 season) so maybe not what you are after. I bought them in Fort William and then walked the ring of Steele (big horseshoe) and I did not even get a blister from the new boots.
I love them...............Jon
Basemetal
01-01-2006, 18:56
Goretex's raison d'etre is to be 100% waterproof and breathable. But there are limits on the transpiration rate (after all -you can get condensation on a cotton T-shirt and that's breathable) so you can still get damp feet inside. Things that slow Goretex transpiration are dirt, water, grease and the membranes on the outside of the Goretex layer .
If you waterproof your leather boots, the only place condensed transpired moisture is going to sit is on the inside of the leather (on the outside of the goretex membrane) since it won't quickly go through the proofed leather. This will in turn slow further transpiration. On this basis Goretex lined Fabric boots make more sense. Until they are wet on the outside that is, then again the Goretex can't do its job.
And, if you let water into your boots from the top...over your ankles... you will immediately stop the Goretex working as water will block the pores on the inside.
So... (I have a pair of Goretex Brashers and a pair of non-Goretex Meindl Burmas) ...I think it's best to think of Goretex in boots as an impermeable layer. If it's below zero it will be; if its wet on the inside it will be; if you have particularly sweaty feet it will be...
All that said, for some of the year and in some conditions there might actually be a benefit and your feet may be a little more comfortable in Goretex boots. But I don't think you'll notice most of the time. Only reason I have Goretex Brashers is 'cos I couldn't get non-Goretex.
I have not used gortex boots before but have had a pair of scarpa's for the past 6 years and they are legendary!! I used to work in an outdoor store and you learn some of the 'so called' pro's and cons but remember the best pair of boots aren't just the most 'technical' etc...the best pair of boots are often the pair that fits you the best! As soon as you are spending £80-£150 on boots you are getting something decent...just make sure they fit and you get the correct treatment information.
Booshpig
BorderReiver
01-01-2006, 19:11
I have gone back to non Goretex leather boots (Meindl).
My big toe nails seem to gouge a hole in the lining thus making the boots leak.
Also my feet seemed to get just as hot and wet as with non GT boots.
steven andrews
01-01-2006, 19:46
No more Gore-Tex for me. I'm a sweater and always end up clammy in Gore-Tex.
I'm very happy with my unlined Meindl Borneo boots. (and Ventile jackets)
Spacemonkey
01-01-2006, 20:04
I have thinsulated goretex lined Danner Arcadias which are great and do not leat a drop of water in. Is they are fairly high legged, I have never had water come in over the top so can't comment on that. Yes, my feet get a bit sweaty, but after removing the boots and letting the socks air on my feet, they are dry again in a few minutes, so I don't consider it a problem. They do run a bit hot in summer, but i generally wear lighter lower boots in hot dry conditions. I have some suede goretex lined boots for that and they are ace in the hot.
I had a pair of Brasher non-goretex in the early to mid 90's followed by a pair of non-goretex Zamberlan. Both were superb but 6-8 hours hard hill walking still left me with hot sweaty feet. The Zamberlan are still going for summer/dry use. In terms of height both fit to just above the ankle bone. Because of wet feet in winter conditions I found a good deal on a pair of Aigle fabric goretx boots. These have been used both for general stuff on hills and in the woods and also for winter (commercial) gardening work. They've been hardwearing, waterproof despite a fair old battering and will probably be "retired" sometime this year. About 18 months ago, because I didn't think the Aigle would last, I bought a pair of Le Chameau Mouflon leather/goretex boots which I've worn in quietly hillwalking and general outdoors. Both the goretex boots are mid-height ie. taller than the ankle height boots but not full calf height.
I'm fully converted to goretex lined boots and to the mid-height versions as they provide more flexibility crossing streams, on swampy ground and in sustained wet weather. The Le Chameau did leave my feet hot after a summer day's hillwalking near Keswick but my original old faithfuls (non-lined) were just as bad in summer. Possibly the fabric boots are a touch cooler and the taller boots also retain the heat due to the extra 2-3 inches of padding above the ankle bone. My vote goes on goretex lined mid height boots for IMHO greater all round benefit and flexibility.
David Moulds
01-01-2006, 20:11
I have had a pair of lowa mountain boots for the past five years and have not had a problem with them yet,They are a millatary boot so they are well tried and tested,If you are intrested in a pair make you order a size bigger as they are a really tight fit.
Hope this helps you a bit
I've been moving towards lighter and lighter footwear for a few years now and I don't think Goretex is worth it. If you're out in wet conditions all day the Goretex isn't going to be able to breathe anyway and if it's dry you don't need a waterproof layer.
Take a spare pair of dry socks. Save the weight of a Goretex layer and have dry feet when you get to camp.
That hasn't been my experience. Whatever I wear there's always some light sweating when boots, shoes, trainers are worn for a sustained period, particularly when active. However much wax is applied to non-goretex boots , water will ingress after a few hours in a downpour. My experience with goretex has involved outdoor working in very wet conditions for 6-8 hours......and at the end of it, the surface of my boots has actually begun to dry during a half hour drive home, while my feet have been bone dry and pleasantly warm. That's just my experience and it's fair to assume it doesn't work that way for everyone.......but it's why I upgraded to goretex five years ago and why I'll continue to use it.
I used to use the standard British Arny boots in all weathers...didn' have much choice. They weren't that comfy so the first chance I got I bought pair of gortex lined walking boots (suede/fabric) which were nice and light and did the job, however get them wet on the inside...and I did often and they are misery as they don't dry quick!Pro boots the same, comfy mind, just too hot! Still using leather gortex at the mo but going for a lightweight pair of all leather next. I can always stick a pair of Gortex socks on. I was having a look on a thread reviewing Rogue Trans Africa boots made by Selke leathercraft S.A. Seem good value too.
Heres the site to buy from:
www.unbeatentracks.com
Has anyone else used these?
had both gore tex and non gore tex, i will never go back to non gore tex, it does exactly what it says on the tin, how can non gore tex be better than gore tex??? go figure,
I love my goretex boots :)
They suit my feet, no problems ever but each persons feet and comfort is individual.
I love this thread. I have had much experience with walking and boots etc. I do know that people have different shaped feet and what will work for some may not work for others. When I bought my La Sportiva's in Fort William, I really wanted Scarpa's or Meindles because of there reputation, but my feet were too narrow for them and they just did not feel right and lucky for me, the salesman knew his stuff (rare these days) and he sold me the right boots for me and what I was doing. I do have other boots though, I have some Hanwag 3 season gortex lined boots which after doing our bi-annual 50 mile walk (in one day) I only had a tiny blister on a toe, so they fit me well, but part of the walk one year involved walking through a corn field on a little used part of the south downs way. The corn was wet and the water travelled down my legs and into my gortex lined boots. I was squelching as I carried on the walk and it was horrible. I can argue for both lined and unlined boots, but if you get lined boots wet inside, it will not be nice for you and they will take ages to dry out. This is only my experiance, everyone will have different experiances, so I would say, think about what you want the boots for, think about what everyone has said here and find a decent boot supplier who will measure your feet correctly and give good advise. I recommend Peglers in Arundel, they know there stuff.............Jon
I'm not a big fan of gore-tex boots, either. Or gore-tex jackets that matter!
Sure, they'll keep your feet dry when you're walking through mud, but as soon as water gets into the tops of the boots, they take eons to dry. And sweat and oil and dirt clogs the pores diminishing their vaunted breathing capabilities. I much prefer a stout pair of leather boots, well treated to be water repellent. At least that way, while they might get wet, at least they'll dry!
Just my $0.02 cents!
Adam
I bought some Rogue Trans African boots about 6 months ago and found them to be very good,I havn't had wet feet yet ,I just make sure the stitching has plenty of budding on them,the down side is that they are a heavy boot .
Mark
TheViking
02-01-2006, 10:56
I bought a pair of cross mountain boots for 19 (19) quid over two years ago and they're still going strong. ;) Just an example that cheap boots arent always bad, and yes they are pretty water resistant. I'm planning to buy a gtx sock to go with them.
I've got through a few pairs of Gore Tex boots. Unfortunately, as much as I like Gore Tex in general, I've found that the footwear falls short.
The shoes will only be waterproof for as long as the Gore Tex lining remains unbroken. In my experience this is only a few months. The Gore Tex lining is basically a sock inside your shoe and after a while it splits and lets in water even though your shoes might still be in excellent condition and there might be no visible signs of the lining being damaged.
They don't breathe as well as non-waterproof shoes but then I've found that many of the modern synthetic lined shoes don't breathe all that well anyway.
I need waterproof shoes and because of my disappointment with Gore Tex lined shoes letting in water after only a few month use I switched over to waterproof socks!
I bought some SealSkinz socks and have been very pleased with them so far. For me the advantage is that I only wear the waterproof socks when I really need them and I can choose less expensive more breathable walking shoes/boots. I even wore the socks inside my trainers just to see how well they would perform. The trainers were soaked through but my feet were dry and fairly warm.
They do take ages to dry when you wash them so it's good to have two pair. I also wear a lining sock so they won't get too smelly if I need to wear them for more than a day.
I have a Gore Tex Jacket and leggings and I really like them but I wouldn't buy Gore Tex footwear again unless it was such a good deal that I couldn't pass it up (even then I'd still take my SealSkinz socks with me in case the shoes started leaking).
In conclusion: My opinion is; don't get Gore Tex footwear get SealSkinz socks.
Check out their Website http://www.sealskinz.com/
The shoes will only be waterproof for as long as the Gore Tex lining remains unbroken. In my experience this is only a few months. [/url]
You must have been really unlucky....as I sais earlier, my Aigle boots (green canvas/suede) are over four years old and still completely waterproof despite the battering they've had. They've been used for gardening for the pst two years, including getting covered in sand/cement when hard landscaping. I had expected they would have ben "retired" by now but they're still going strong.
arctic hobo
02-01-2006, 18:54
For me, goretex is too fragile. It breaks too easily, clogs too easily, and doesn't work in the cold. People quote using boots for two years, four years, etc, why not thirty years? Boots can easily last that long, at least decent ones do, if looked after. And that takes into account heavy regular use.
Goretex you can't clean properly even with those fancy soaps, so over time, it will, no, it must, deteriorate.
I can't understand what it offers thats superior to leather boots anyway. In my Scarpa SLs my feet are never sweaty (at least no more than in shoes, or sandals, or any other footwear), and they also never get wet. The boots are extremely tough, will last for years, are as waterproof as I could want them (that is, I've stood in streams for hours without the tiniest damp - and lets face it, who stands around in streams all day?), they wipe dry both inside and out... I couldn't imagine a better boot, even with imaginary technology. When worn in, leather boots will fit your foot better than even a custom lining.
I have no clue why goretex boots were invented, other than to let the gore company make more money :confused: :confused:
william#
03-01-2006, 08:42
gortex boots eh hmmmm
well the plus point is yu can have a pair of water proof that are soft so u do not really have to break them in - and they are pretty comfortable - the down side - well tbh i have found they only stay waterproof for around six months tops and they end up stinking to high heaven
i use to work in outdoor education so i was wearing my pair everyday but i would take them back every 3mths or so and get a new free pair - hehehehehehe
TallMikeM
03-01-2006, 18:07
had an interesting experience in some outdoor gear shops when I had call to go into town today.
I was after some good quality, all leather non gore boots to replace my old ridgemasters (gonna keep 'em, but they're a bit overkill for the low level walking I do most of the time). I was looked at like I'd just asked fo lighlty grilled human liver! One shop even told me that most manufactueres don't make them, it's all fabric, gore lined and jazzy colours cos that's what sells. Out of 3 shops I tried only one had anything in stock. These were scarpa rangers, which were good and in my price range, but I wanted to try some other makes to make sure I get he best fit.
Thing is, I just don't like fabric boots, they don't seem very hardwearing to me (and I put 'em through some abuse). Oh well, the search continues.
Spacemonkey
03-01-2006, 19:59
My afore mentioned Danners are about 12-14 years old and they really don't leak. Honest!
They've been resoled only once, and while i might look after them when I get home, I don't treat them with kid gloves inthe field, in fact quite the opposite.
Maybe it depends on the quality of the boot in the first place...?
gregorach
04-01-2006, 11:20
Well, I've been wearing Goretex lined Salomon boots every single day for nearly ten years now - they get retired when the soles wear out. Over that time I've used them well outside their specifications (like working on a farm in Aussie in the rainy season, or light winter climbing in 3-season trekking boots) and they've always been great. One pair even got run over by a tractor-trailer stacked 5-high with wet straw bales and were fine...
Only boots I've ever found that can keep my feet tolerably dry after a week in continuous rain. Leather, no matter how well proofed, always soaks though eventually in my experience. It helps that my feet don't sweat that much...
Horses for courses I guess...
Great Pebble
04-01-2006, 11:45
You have not met sweaty feet till you've met me.
In the past my boots when removed have induced nausea, I kid thee not (perhaps I shouldn't actually mention these things)
The problem was particularly bad with GT lined footwear.
This all ended when I obtained a pair of Danner Ft. Lewis. Feet stay warm and dry, only after the longest days do you get any discernable odour ... And then it's generally a "fresh sweat" pong which is pretty bearable.
I cannot praise Danner boots highly enough.
Alchemist
04-01-2006, 16:25
To be brief:
- Nothing is 100% waterproof and 100% breathable in my opinion.
- I have sweaty feet, goretex makes them sweat more, no goretex equals drier feet in most conditions. This is also very true if you are doing sweaty activities, like walking/tabbing/running long and fast.
- Leather can be proofed correctly with a little care and attention.
- Leather is stronger than fabric. I hate fabric. Leather boots are also made of less pieces, making them more robust in their build. And I am sure it makes them more comfortable because the fit is not flimsy.
- I have a low (ish) cut Zamberlan, all leather boot. No goretex. Proofed correctly it is waterproof. My feet get wet from sweat more than anything else.
- My wife got these same boots way back when. After ten years and a lot of mileage they graciously departed us. We both bought a pair after this and the style is the same as ten years ago- it has stood the test of time.
- We both broke our boots in on a 20 mile walk in the Brecon Beacons. Not a blister. A boot of this quality does not really require much breaking in.
3 crucial points:
- Goretex/no goretex. I choose not. My feet sweat enough and leather is good enough for me.
- Buy a full leather boot either with or without goretex. Up to you.
- Buy quality, it lasts. Zamberlan boots= £100. 100/10 = £10 a year. Now that makes sense. Lowa and Danner are other very good brands.
For my current boots I went to a decent outdoor shop who spent 40 minutes measuring my feet. They told me only 3 of their boots would fit my foot shape and I ended up with the best fitting which turned out to be Gore tex lined solomans. I wanted the scarpa's but they did not fit quite right. The shop also gave me a fit guarantee that I would not get blisters, now thats confidence. Straight out the box I went with full pack to brecon and over penny fan for 2 days. Attrotious weather the gore tex failed in 1 boot and I got a wet foot but I did not really care as I had no blisters. The shop swapped the boots after a leak test and the new ones are fine.
If the best fitting boot had been a non gore tex leather that is what I would have bought, so just go for the best fitting boot for you that will do the job you need it to do..
Gortex = skin of satan (IMO)
Having worked in the outdoor industry for many years I always asked customers "Do cows leak?" (except where they are supposed too! ;)) As long as you proof your boots regularly/properly they won't leak - except the big hole you put your foot in. Goretex is just someone's way of scr*wing more money out of you.
A breathable lined boot is only of any use in dry cold conditions where you need to keep the feet as dry as poss to prevent frostbite injuries.
P.S. as independent research has shown that the material itself doesn't actually work i.e. breathe!
Apologies - rant over
Gore tex seems water proof and seems to somehow breathe. In the past I have used an orange plastic bivi bag and and goretex bivi bag. If gore tex did not breathe a night in the goretex bivi would result in the same damp experience as the plastic bivi bag. I also walk every day in a gore tex jacket for about 45 minutes. If it offered no breathability it should be damp upon my return. From owning a jelly jacket as a child and experiencing 10 minutes of walking in those things Gore tex seems to offer a different experience. There may well be materials better than gore tex and in some conditions it may not work well but for me gore tex does what it says on the tin and as yet has only failed me once, first time out, due to a manafacturing fault. I would be interested to know if there is a membrane out there which is waterproof (by which I mean capable of being hosed down) but more breathable?
I would be interested to know if there is a membrane out there which is waterproof (by which I mean capable of being hosed down) but more breathable?
Hi Phil,
The only one that competes membrane vs membrane is eVent (Rab & Montaine make jackets in it - both UK companies. Actually, GTX cannot hold a candle to it - IMO. I did some testing for Lowe Alpine before they intoduced it to the UK market and was quite amazed how comfy it was. I'm a 15 stone hairy-a***d bushcrafting, mountain climbing/biking sort and it has had a real bashing. Came up smiles every time. Would not allow GTX in the house from now on, bad juju! ;)
Hope this helps
Cheers Rod, I'm one for the latest kit so next time I buy an outer layer eVent membrane it is, I too am a 6'4'' 15st hairy mountain biker/walker, not sure I'm fully bushcrafter yet only been on two proper trips but I'll see how it holds up.
pah membranes PARAMO rules (for me anyway)
GTX makes tom cats come and wee in my boots.
hia faca i've got two pairs of lowa boots one supercamp leather lined for summer
one combat gtx for winter the gtx do just what they say on the box,i've been stood shin deep in freezing water flyfishing with toasty warm dry feet they are however too warm for spring/summer use though hence the leather lined ones.
so like mentioned before it works for some but not others if you can stretch to a pair of each go for it you wont be dissapionted,imo
cheers good look with whatever you choose
halo :)
If you suffer from cold feet, use socks with a high content of wool (say 60%+) and terry-loop construction. Woolen insoles in winter and leather ones in summer also help to get a better climate inside your boots.
If your feet go numb, you have ill-fitting boots and no remedy exept new ones.
Goretex or not? I go through that routine five times a day with my customers and it always depends....., sorry.
Ryan Woods
07-01-2006, 17:18
Bought pair of Berghaus Gore-Tex boots. Absolutely fantastic! I was a Goretex virigin, normally going for army boots. But on a three day hike my feet were never wet, either from the bogs, snow, pubbles and swaps I wondered through or the sweat from my hardworking feet, going up and down the hills. Not looking back,
Brilliant!
Further to my reply earlier, I went out and got some Goretex boots the other day (Scarpa ZG10) I'll let you all know whether I change my mind after I take them up Bynack More on Wednesday. :)
arctic hobo
07-01-2006, 21:36
One more thing about goretex: it cannot and will never be very abrasion resitant. You can't scramble or climb in goretex boots, or even walk over normal paths in wilder places.
I wouldn't, for example, even think about trekking or walking in goretex boots anywhere outside the UK where you can rely on broad flat paths. Even my very tough leathers get a bettering on Norwegian paths, like this one (there are many others much worse, too :rolleyes: ): http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/2667/itsarockyroadtodublin2yt.jpg
One more thing about goretex: it cannot and will never be very abrasion resitant. You can't scramble or climb in goretex boots, or even walk over normal paths in wilder places.
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/2667/itsarockyroadtodublin2yt.jpg
Not sure this makes sense with the boots I own or others I've seen........my Le Chameau look, to all intents and purposes, like a pair of mid height leather boots....the difference is they have goretex laminated/bonded (whatever the technical term is) to the undersurface of the leather, and are no diferent from my old non-goretex Zamberlan treklites in external appearance . Both are extremely abrasion resistant.....which has also been the case with my extremely battered Aigle canvass GTX boots...still bone dry. I think it's down to personal preference in terms of personal comfort here guys.....I've got and still use both....the opinions about differences IMO :lmao: are becoming somewhat exaggerated !
arctic hobo
07-01-2006, 22:28
Not sure this makes sense with the boots I own or others I've seen........my Le Chameau look, to all intents and purposes, like a pair of mid height leather boots....the difference is they have goretex laminated/bonded (whatever the technical term is) to the undersurface of the leather, and are no diferent from my old non-goretex Zamberlan treklites in external appearance .
How does the goretex breathe through the leather? Is it very thin leather or is it very very breathable goretex? Sounds a funny arrangement :confused:
Gortex = skin of satan (IMO)
P.S. as independent research has shown that the material itself doesn't actually work i.e. breathe!
I've found that it works for me. I can be outside all day in the pouring rain, working up a sweat, without being wet. For me it makes the difference between not being able to work and being able to work.
Previously I used a variety of waterproof garments and they either leaked or they were so sweaty that I was so wet inside from sweat that I almost might as well have not bothered wearing more than a regular jacket.
Now I wear a GoreTex jacket and trousers and not only can I work in the rain but it really doesn't bother me all that much either. I'm talking about an entire day of physical work in pouring rain that finds its way through any part of my garment that isn't sealed. It might have its faults but GoreTex completely changed my ability to be able to out in all weather.
How does the goretex breathe through the leather? Is it very thin leather or is it very very breathable goretex? Sounds a funny arrangement :confused:
I'm not competent to explain the technicalities as I'm not sure I fully understand them, though most new goretex products have a card label attached with a diagram (usually gets thrown away) which explains it all. Given that the goretex membrane is very thin (less thn 1mm ?) and is designed to let microscopic water molecules (perspiration)pass through it, I guess our feet breathe through the leather in the same way with both goretex and non-goretex products.
I've found that it works for me. I can be outside all day in the pouring rain, working up a sweat, without being wet. For me it makes the difference between not being able to work and being able to work.
Previously I used a variety of waterproof garments and they either leaked or they were so sweaty that I was so wet inside from sweat that I almost might as well have not bothered wearing more than a regular jacket.
Now I wear a GoreTex jacket and trousers and not only can I work in the rain but it really doesn't bother me all that much either. I'm talking about an entire day of physical work in pouring rain that finds its way through any part of my garment that isn't sealed. It might have its faults but GoreTex completely changed my ability to be able to out in all weather.
Hi Rebel,
You are one of the few that it seems to work for :cool: There are some.
Where abouts in Herts are you based? Would be good to get you along to some of our informal wanderings. :)
pah membranes PARAMO rules (for me anyway)
Hi Andy,
This is now my prefered outerlayer when not around the campfire :)
Hi Rebel,
You are one of the few that it seems to work for :cool: There are some.
Where abouts in Herts are you based? Would be good to get you along to some of our informal wanderings. :)
I can understand GTX might not be everyone's first choice (and I'm one who frequently wears other materials as well) but the degree of negativity confuses me.... :confused: I wore waxed jackets at one stage (and even the rubber-type linings commonly used on farms etc) and there is absolutely no comparison with the internal moisture trapped within these old fashioned products. And back to the boots debate, after a solid day's mountain walking, my feet got equally hot and bothered in my pre-goretex days as well as shipping water (despite many coats of nikwax) after tramping the Staffordshire Way in 6 hours of continuous rain....although I was snug, warm and dry in my Berghaus. I guess we'll all have to agree to differ...
"Do cows leak?"
of course they do
sweating is afer all just water passing through the skin to a place with a lower water potential (caused by salt being pumped out using energy). Yor fingers go wrinkly after a bath because water is absorbed through them.
Cows sweat through their noses.
Although they do steam quite a bit....
(ex-farmer)
arctic hobo
09-01-2006, 17:00
of course they do
sweating is afer all just water passing through the skin to a place with a lower water potential (caused by salt being pumped out using energy). Yor fingers go wrinkly after a bath because water is absorbed through them.
They don't leak the other way though ;)
what? skin is a permiable membrane
sweat goes out. water from a bath (or in this case river/puddle etc) goes in. It's the treatments that you put on the leather which stop that happening.
arctic hobo
10-01-2006, 16:53
what? skin is a permiable membrane
sweat goes out. water from a bath (or in this case river/puddle etc) goes in. It's the treatments that you put on the leather which stop that happening.
I mean, cows don't let the rain in... you don't find cows blown up like balloons full of water... the only way that gets in is the mouth :)
I know that once the skin is dead it is less effective, but that's why it is tanned ;)
gregorach
10-01-2006, 17:08
That's could be because they're already pretty much full... ;)
I don't think tanning really helps waterproofness much, it's mainly just for preservation. You still need to proof the leather in some way, and anything that improves its waterproofing tends to have a corresponding reduction of breathability.
In the end, it's always a compromise. In some places the most practical boots are wellies - completely waterproof but not breathable in any way. In others, you don't even try to keep your feet dry, you just wear sandals (or go barefoot) on the basis that you'll dry out faster. In a temperate climate such as ours, the compromise between waterproofing and breathability is largely a matter of personal preference.
I can understand GTX might not be everyone's first choice (and I'm one who frequently wears other materials as well) but the degree of negativity confuses me.... :confused: I wore waxed jackets at one stage (and even the rubber-type linings commonly used on farms etc) and there is absolutely no comparison with the internal moisture trapped within these old fashioned products. And back to the boots debate, after a solid day's mountain walking, my feet got equally hot and bothered in my pre-goretex days as well as shipping water (despite many coats of nikwax) after tramping the Staffordshire Way in 6 hours of continuous rain....although I was snug, warm and dry in my Berghaus. I guess we'll all have to agree to differ...
Hi Falcon,
Apologies if I appeared a bit heavy handed :o
It has to do with the construction of the membrane.
Strands of ePTFE (teflon to us) is made into a yarn and woven into a really breathable fabric. The W.L. Gore folks - to make it water repellent - spray it with a hydrophillic (if I've got it round the right way) coating, which significantly reduces the breathability of the pores! It then gets bonded to a face fabric and either backed with a scrim or a drop mesh. (In the case of some GTX fabrics this reduces the breathability by 50% again! You might believe you could do better with a bin liner - depending on your body's metabolism)
By comparison eVent (Gore's biggest laminate competitor) take ePTFE, produce a yarn - then coat it - then weave it into a membrane. The breathability of the pores is maintained 100%, but you also get the performance of the coating to boot. The difference in the finished garment is off the scale by comparison to GTX. The folks that make eVent only make 2 and 3 layer they don't need all the Paclite/XCR nonsense as well - Gore were forced to produced these in response to the fact that the true performance of their fabrics was not as hot as they would have us all believe.
Sorry if I appear to doubt the efficiency of GTX (I spent 8+ years working in the outdoor industry and have given a lot of gear - from all different manufacturers - a real hard time in that time, as well as seeing feedback from customers.) I apperciate that what works for one person may not necessarily be the same for another - so if it "floats your boat" - go with it. If you get a chance to try eVent, take it - some manufacturers - Montane for instance have Test garments in shops that stock their products
all the best
Thanks for the top class technical explanation Rod, I'll certainly keep an eye open for eVent products when I'm looking out for a waterproof next time. I would never claim GTX to be perfect, just amazingly more effective than other products I've used previously in terms of a waterproof, breathable jacket which didn't leave me soaked inside after a hard days' walking or beating. I still use one for hillwalking or on my bike but find ventile more durable in the woods. As I said, the GTX boots have kept me dry where my old faithful Zamberlans (previously Brashers) eventually succumbed to rain but after a day up and down mountains I'm hot in anything. I just felt some comments were a touch exaggerated compared to my personal experience. I'll look out for the eVent products. ;)
I bought pair of gortex lined walking boots (suede/fabric) which were nice and light and did the job, however get them wet on the inside...and I did often and they are misery as they don't dry quick!
That's why GTX boots are a hazard if you are on a several days trip with many river/swamp immersions as your feet may start to rot. On a recent 4 day course the person with GTX footwear had the worst feet.
That's why GTX boots are a hazard if you are on a several days trip with many river/swamp immersions as your feet may start to rot. On a recent 4 day course the person with GTX footwear had the worst feet.
Could be worth trying the SealSkinz socks I mentioned earlier. Since I started using them I've not bothered with GoreTex, Hydro-Shield, Sympatex, Jontex or whatever.
Okay so they're not as breathable as regular socks, but hey they're totally waterproof and only around 20GBP a pair (got mine even cheaper in a sale).
There's a review of these socks in no less an illustrious location than our very own Bushcraft.com
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/content/articles.php?action=show&showarticle=25
Since moving to Goretex lined [Cordura outer preferred over leather] boots some years ago, I have never looked back. Sure your feet feel a tad clammy, but never wet.
As for durability, the boots [Saloman, Lowa, Danner] have remained waterproof right up to the soles wore out. And as for footrot, well the only time I had a problem in this area was years ago whilst wearing a pair of leather boots that did not get a chance to dry for a week.
Vince
Could be worth trying the SealSkinz socks I mentioned earlier. Since I started using them I've not bothered with GoreTex, Hydro-Shield, Sympatex, Jontex or whatever.
A good review. Thanks for that. But it says they fill up once the water goes over the tops. But I like the idea of putting them on after the immersions to have dry feet in wet boots.
Will trial them in the jungle.
Stuart, you have Sealskinz. Do you use them while walking or just afterward?
WelshTriffid
14-01-2006, 11:10
I've got a pair of army issue Gortex ProBoots, I've had them for about 4 years and they've seen action all over the world and as of yet I can't fault em.
GTX and similar boots are fine for a variety of environments but they are challenged in a tropical rainforest especially one with many rivers and streams. Thats why you wear jungle boots with vents. The boot and your feet get wet but the boots drains so you don't get immersion foot.
The Sealskinz seem like a good idea to be worn in camp or when the water crossings are finished.
Some years ago Bruce Sandilands, a government surveyor, was abandoned by his native guides with just a tin of sardines once he developed infections from his immersion foot. It is not possible to evacuate someone once they are down and immobile. He died about two weeks later according to his diary. So leave the waterproof boots at home is what we recommend to those coming out here
See this Wilderness Medical Society article of an expedition in Borneo http://www.wemjournal.org/wmsonline/?request=get-document&issn=1080-6032&volume=015&issue=03&page=0233
and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9290296&dopt=Abstract