Wild Camping e-petition - England & Wales

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Kerne

Maker
Dec 16, 2007
1,766
21
Gloucestershire
I don't think anyone is trying to legalise wild camping anywhere you please. Legal wild camping on high ground, rather than the current technically illegal but often tolerated system would be a step forward - and bring England and Wales more in line with Scotland. We already have "open country" defined and mapped. Legal wild camping in some or all of these areas would be a good thing IMHO.
 

nodd

Nomad
May 12, 2004
485
0
liverpool
Most of the land in question was common land and 'legally' stolen from the people of this country so I am in favour of it.

Inclosures act:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inclosure_Acts

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/janusg/landls.htm
Common land has always belonged to some one commons belonged to the lord of the manor the rights belonged to the commeners who occupied particular properties. This ment that in wood coomns the lord of the manor owned the timber but commoners owned the wood from the pollards. (Rackham 2003). There was also rules how the common was worked and not just a free for all.

Rackham O (2003) The Illustrated History of the CountrysideItaly Weidenfeld and Nicolson.
 
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sasquatch

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jun 15, 2008
2,812
0
47
Northampton
Great idea but I fear what would happen if anyone that wanted to was allowed to camp in my favorite spots...it only takes a small percent to ruin it for the rest of us. Keep it how it already is in my opinion, I manage to camp enough without hassle and leave the place better than I found it. Just my opinion of course!
 

Wayland

Hárbarðr
Common land has always belonged to some one commons belonged to the lord of the manor the rights belonged to the commeners who occupied particular properties. This ment that in wood coomns the lord of the manor owned the timber but commoners owned the wood from the pollards. (Rackham 2003). There was also rules how the common was worked and not just a free for all.

Rackham O (2003) The Illustrated History of the CountrysideItaly Weidenfeld and Nicolson.

Only since William the ******* took everything and parcelled it out.
 

Kepis

Bushcrafter through and through
Jul 17, 2005
6,704
2,141
Sussex
Same as Wayne above. Someone been in my woods lighting fires as well :nono::nono::nono: They cause damage without regard

Not had people lighting fires in my woods (apart from me) but i have had some damned horse riders churning the ground up into something resembling a battle field and cutting down trees to make jumps, same as normal, these people seem to think they have the god given right to go where they want and do what they want, i worked hard to secure these woods and have looked after them only to see them churned up by two selfish women on horses. We know exactly who they are, but have to catch them on the private property in order to be able to anything about it, but catch them we will - eventually.
 
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nodd

Nomad
May 12, 2004
485
0
liverpool
Only since William the ******* took everything and parcelled it out.
Field division was taking place before then with evedence of celtic field reaves boundries that can still be seen today (Rackham 2003)
Rackham O (2003) The Illustrated History of the CountrysideItaly Weidenfeld and Nicolson.
 

Martyn

Bushcrafter through and through
Aug 7, 2003
5,252
33
58
staffordshire
www.britishblades.com
Most of the land in question was common land and 'legally' stolen from the people of this country so I am in favour of it.

Inclosures act:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inclosure_Acts

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/janusg/landls.htm

If communism dings your bell that much, I'm sure North Korea could squeeze you in.

In 1750, the population of Britain was about 11 million, it's now nearer 70 million. If you have a vast amount of land and not many people, there is no need for things like inclosure acts, but where the population is huge and land availability is minuscule, the use of every square inch needs to be regulated to ensure that everyone gets the maximum benefit, otherwise what little there is, will be raped and ruined in short order and we all suffer. Leave the laws just as they are. What little wild land there is, is protected so that everyone can enjoy it as best they can. It would be nice to be able to "do what you want, where you want" but that is idealistic nonsense and can never happen when the population density of a country is as high as the UK.

Winston Churchill: "If you're not a socialist at twenty you have no heart; if you're still one at thirty you have no head."
 
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Harb505

Forager
Nov 22, 2011
149
0
Lincolnshire
Not had people lighting fires in my woods (apart from me) but i have had some damned horse riders churning the ground up into something resembling a battle field and cutting down trees to make jumps, same as normal, these people seem to think they have the god given right to go where they want and do what they want, i worked hard to secure these woods and have looked after them only to see them churned up by two selfish women on horses. We know exactly who they are, but have to catch them on the private property in order to be able to anything about it, but catch them we will - eventually.

Depending on you budget you could prehapse buy or maybe even rent some camaras - video or photographic that are activated via motion sensors.
 

Faz

Full Member
Mar 24, 2011
244
7
47
Cheshire
Just a clarification of the current accepted rules would be nice. Cant imagine that anyone would allow people willy nilly on their land but current rules like camp at height and pitch late and leave early could be clarified maybe. They are just general terms at the moment, although it seems to work well!
 

bronskimac

Forager
Aug 22, 2011
124
0
Dundee
The right to roam and legal wild camping in Scotland has been a great success and a major failure.

The success: thousands of people every year camp or use bothies responsibly, often even improving the camp sites and bothies by cleaning up the mess left by the ignorant few. Additionally, there are thousands of people who have enjoyed accessing loch sides by car and camping and most have been responsible campers. Not everyone is able or willing to hike off the beaten track to camp.

The failure: mainly at sites easily accessible by vehicle there has been a lot of irresponsible behaviour; too many people, large unsupervised fires, cutting live wood for fires, "disposing" of tin cans, broken chairs, plastic packaging, even tents in the fire. Generally partying without consideration for the location, locals or other campers.

The problems caused on some loch sides has gotten to the point that one local authority has introduced a byelaw: "it is an offence to camp in the East Loch Lomond Restricted Zone at any time of day or night, except if you are using one of the official designated sites.The byelaw applies from 1 March to 31 October". As well as irresponsible camping the strain placed on the location never allows it to recover, so something had to be done to preserve the delicate environment.

I can see similar byelaws being introduced soon for several other lochs. When I first camped at Glen Etive, a few years ago, you could travel along 12 mile single track road and hardly see a soul, last year there were probably about 8 encampments along the way.
 

Martyn

Bushcrafter through and through
Aug 7, 2003
5,252
33
58
staffordshire
www.britishblades.com
The right to roam and legal wild camping in Scotland has been a great success and a major failure.

The success: thousands of people every year camp or use bothies responsibly, often even improving the camp sites and bothies by cleaning up the mess left by the ignorant few. Additionally, there are thousands of people who have enjoyed accessing loch sides by car and camping and most have been responsible campers. Not everyone is able or willing to hike off the beaten track to camp.

The failure: mainly at sites easily accessible by vehicle there has been a lot of irresponsible behaviour; too many people, large unsupervised fires, cutting live wood for fires, "disposing" of tin cans, broken chairs, plastic packaging, even tents in the fire. Generally partying without consideration for the location, locals or other campers.

The problems caused on some loch sides has gotten to the point that one local authority has introduced a byelaw: "it is an offence to camp in the East Loch Lomond Restricted Zone at any time of day or night, except if you are using one of the official designated sites.The byelaw applies from 1 March to 31 October". As well as irresponsible camping the strain placed on the location never allows it to recover, so something had to be done to preserve the delicate environment.

I can see similar byelaws being introduced soon for several other lochs. When I first camped at Glen Etive, a few years ago, you could travel along 12 mile single track road and hardly see a soul, last year there were probably about 8 encampments along the way.

Now export that south of the border, where the available potential acreage for wild camping is much smaller and the population density is much higher and you would have an ecological disaster. It might work if you allowed it a minimum of 2 miles from the nearest vehicular access, making it a real chore to hump crates of stella that far. Problem with that is, there are very few places in England that are more than 2 miles from vehicular access.
 

Grebby

Life Member
Jul 16, 2008
496
46
Sutton Coldfield
Not had people lighting fires in my woods (apart from me) but i have had some damned horse riders churning the ground up into something resembling a battle field and cutting down trees to make jumps, same as normal, these people seem to think they have the god given right to go where they want and do what they want, i worked hard to secure these woods and have looked after them only to see them churned up by two selfish women on horses. We know exactly who they are, but have to catch them on the private property in order to be able to anything about it, but catch them we will - eventually.

May I suggest some form of trip wire/I.R. beam triggered VERY loud noise, you could call it an intruder alarm. A startled horse in woodland would not be a very good choice of seat.

I have only too often been on the recieving end from the holier than thou horse riders (not all horse riders are like this..... bla bla bla) due to my second car choice. It would make me very happy to hear of them getting what they deserve.
 

rik_uk3

Banned
Jun 10, 2006
13,320
24
69
south wales
May I suggest some form of trip wire/I.R. beam triggered VERY loud noise, you could call it an intruder alarm. A startled horse in woodland would not be a very good choice of seat.

I have only too often been on the recieving end from the holier than thou horse riders (not all horse riders are like this..... bla bla bla) due to my second car choice. It would make me very happy to hear of them getting what they deserve.

Add one of these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Remote_Controlled_Weapon_Station should slow the buggers down.
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,715
1,961
Mercia
Ridiculous idea.

I'm pleased to see that common sense prevails on this forum and then many recognise this sort of foolishness for what it is.

Red
 

Kepis

Bushcrafter through and through
Jul 17, 2005
6,704
2,141
Sussex
May I suggest some form of trip wire/I.R. beam triggered VERY loud noise, you could call it an intruder alarm. A startled horse in woodland would not be a very good choice of seat.

I have only too often been on the recieving end from the holier than thou horse riders (not all horse riders are like this..... bla bla bla) due to my second car choice. It would make me very happy to hear of them getting what they deserve.

erm thanks for the idea but - not a good one really, i dont want to be responsible for a person or animal getting seriously hurt or worse, as i posted in my original post, we know who they are it's just a matter of time
 

Armleywhite

Nomad
Apr 26, 2008
257
0
Leeds
www.motforum.com
"Wild camping enthusiasts are not a threat to our national parks and open spaces" Some are, some leave a right mess. You'd see an increase in woodland fires, woods stripped of anything that would burn and what 'open land' does the petition refer to ? If I was a land owner I'd get pretty bloody miffed with people pitching up where they fancied.

It is possible to get permission to use some land, some of us here have done so; leave things as they are.

So true, even on the few sites where they allow open fires this happens. Stayed at a decent site in the Yorkshire moors recently and took our own wood to burn. Some of the trees were stripped of anything that would burn, even green wood ripped down by morons. As much as I would love to be able to camp anywhere, as in Scotland, too many idiots would spoil it all.
 

pango

Nomad
Feb 10, 2009
380
6
69
Fife
Firstly, let me say that I haven't read all of the posts, but understand and, to a degree, sympathise with all I have read above and agree with much of it.

Some of the remarks immediately put my hackles up though, like Gliderrider's "keep it north of the border"! I have no doubt he'd make full use of the rights others fought long and hard for, though! But if he has such an aversion to the idea of ordinary people going into the countryside, then he's perfectly at liberty to stay away. However, as difficult as it was in Scotland to get acceptance of our Countryside Bill, and that included some influential landowners driving the issues as well as MCofS, the SMC and various other organisations with outdoor interests, the issues in England would be far greater due to Medieval property laws and backward thinking. To my mind, it beggars belief that people would blindly accept exclusion from the majority of their own country and the notion that they're breaking the law every time they step off an authorised path or walk past a sign marked "Private".

We do have problems in Scotland with irresponsible people and unacceptable behaviour, occasional violence, vandalism and trash left wherever it happened to land. These people need to be dealt with in a way that would make them consider the consequences of their actions before the event, and the prospect of confiscation of every possession, including camping gear and equipment, personal items, cars, and mobile phones used in the offence would certainly make them stop and consider whether it was worth it! Camping has been banned on most of Loch Lomondside and The Trossachs, and that response is spreading like a cancer with banns on camping on lochs and riversides in Perthshire being considered.

Which brings me to another issue, the strong suspicion that Local Authorities, the Police and Ranger Services have a hidden agenda; give them plenty of rope to hang themselves, so enabling the authorities to argue that the problem is so out of control that a total ban is the only remedy.

Three separate occasions come immediately to mind;
1) A good many years ago now, the psychotic anti-camping warden responsible for Blackmount and Glen Etive area who had been driving past the scattering of an abandoned cottage tent, mattresses, clothing and accompanying junk for weeks, while his time was taken up with attempting to intimidate responsible campers. Myself and a mate cleaned up that mess and drove it to a skip a few miles up the road... and the following day, the fool came and told us that camping at the riverside was causing erosion to a river-bank which is engulfed by a torrent in the springtime. I won't repeat our reply!

2) A delapidated and collapsing tent just 100 yards from a well enough used highland road, which a mate and I had to steel ourselves to walk over and open, expecting to find a corpse. Thankfully, there was no corpse, but an array of kit and rotting food with hair growing from it. It turned out that the owner had lost the plot due to the ubiquitous Scottish Midgie, and had abandoned everything he wasn't wearing when he reached his car. It certainly seems to have put a damper on any Romanticism he may previously have harboured about camping in the Scottish Highlands, but my immediate feelings on being informed of that good news by Grampian Police were entirely of self-interest, knowing full well that numerous climbers, hill-folk and Nature Wardens had been driving past that tent for over a fortnight and not a one had made the effort to get out of their car to check that all was well. Changed days indeed!

3) Two years ago, I took my canoe out for a weekend paddle on Loch Tummel, having decided on an island campsite. I paddled away on the Friday and in the three or four miles to my intended camp, discovered two sites where tents, chairs, sleeping bags, etc, had been abandoned. Friday night was great, with the outward appearance of having the loch to myself. But Saturday brought a crowd from Perth who camped on the loch-side about a mile from me and who's behaviour, had they stayed in Perth, would have resulted in an appearance before a magistrate on Monday morning. They spent their time chopping at numerous trees with a blunt axe -I did think of paddling over and showing them how to sharpen it properly-, playing loud... I hesitate... music, arguing, playing at rally drivers in their knackered Ford Fiestas, until Billy got a smack in the mouth and the others walked -or drove- along the road, or carried burning logs through the trees shouting for "Billy" who was probably hiding 20 yards from the fire as, like all his mates, he was terrified of the dark. That went on until they passed out. I paddled back to the car on Sunday morning, drove along the loch-side road to their camp-site, which looked like a war-zone, and took their registration numbers and a GPS bearing, then drove to Pitlochrie to call the Police, stating that I was acting in defence of the Scottish Access Laws. Whether it went any further than that I have no way of knowing as I heard no more about it, despite volunteering myself as a witness.

The worst examples of problem camping around Loch Lomond were fully in view from a huge area, with repeated reports from locals, some of whom were quite genuinely concerned for the safety of their families and property. And yet there were very few prosecutions. Why is that when Strathclyde Police have fully trained Wildlife Crime Officers whose duties include the policing of the environment? And if preventing the desecration and vandalism of a National Park isn't the responsibility of National Park Wardens, then I fail to see the purpose of employing them at all!

It wouldn't take Sherlock Holmes to catch these people? They're staggering around, out of their faces, at a bonfire 20 yards from their cars and shouting at the top of their voices! They're not clever, and the only reason for their behaviour is that they think they won't get caught! The only explanation for the lack of prosecutions is willful negligence on the part of Local Authorities, the Police and Nature Wardenries (not to mention their connivance with local business and hunting interests), and the manipulation of circumstances to force the desired change in the law, rather than adherence to their duty and function of upholding the law of the nation for the greater good!

I never thought I'd ever hear myself say this, but making it mandatory to display a licence to camp on cars outwith official campsites would not only ensure that holders are aware of their responsibilities and the penalties for breaches of trust but would make them signatory to the Scottish Outdoor Access Code and immediately marginalise offenders. A form attached to the SOAC stating that the code has been read and understood, and holding the signatory to abide by the law would incur no cost whatsoever and could be administered at council offices at minimal cost.

The Scottish Countryside Bill is a brilliant piece of legislation but it must be consolidated and defended by the law, and there is no sense in making law without the will to enforce it.

Unfortunately, there's more than one species of Rat in the Park!

Happy Camping,

Pango.
 
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