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Veggies get a raw deal

Discussion in 'Cooking' started by Wayne, Dec 10, 2016.

  1. dewi

    dewi Full Member

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    I am genuinely puzzled… I've read this thread from beginning to end, and looked at what is on offer to the vegetarian… and whilst it may seem like an oxymoron, the thing missing from vegetarian meals appears to be meat.

    Okay, so that may sound facetious, but I don't mean it to be. What I mean is, you're trying to come up with a tasty meal, which to quote the OP is for the refined palate, but its missing the vital ingredient and the part of the menu that equals a human diet.

    You can argue that you're vegetarian through medical grounds, which without studying the current medical science extensively would appear to be valid. But if you're vegetarian to protect the animals from slaughter, surely that means that anything leather is off the table? Leather is a byproduct from the harvesting of meat, so no leather at all?

    This leads to a greater question of extinction. We all frown at the extinction of a particular animal, whether it be the Dodo or the Rhino. Chickens aren't at risk of being extinct, neither is the pig. The cow doesn't look like it will disappear into the history books, and it could be argued successfully that the duck won't be joining the ranks of 99.9% of animal species that have ever lived on this green and blue ball. And why? Because we eat them.

    If we ate some of the world's endangered species, we would in fact be saving them, because we'd farm them. We'd breed them, take care of them and raise them. Ensure there were enough of that species left to produce more. So Snow Leopard Stew would save them. Penguin burgers would ensure their survival. With the exception of fish, we'd save the species that are currently endangered simply by adding them to the menu.

    Leave aside the horror stories that we'll run out of space for the animals, that we won't be able to produce enough meat… the west of Russia has enough land to feed the world's meat production for the next 500 years even at current population growth projections and without supplementing the diets of meat eaters with insects as has been suggested. Realistically at the current rate of technology, we won't even be hosting the human race exclusively on Earth in 100 years anyway.

    Burnt BBQ sausages and chicken nuggets argument to one side, why abandon meat at all? Why not expand what we eat? Dogs, cats or perhaps even take advantage of the explosion in polar bear numbers? Eat a tiger, an elephant or a bald-headed eagle, because the moment they are eaten by the majority, they will be spared extinction. They will live on through the farming industry caring for them… after all if they die out, no more elephant kebabs. No more mountain gorilla steaks…. and no more leatherback turtle nuggets!

    So I'll end as I began, I am truly puzzled. What is the benefit to the animals of this planet to become a vegetarian?
     
    #81 dewi, Dec 13, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2016
  2. Leshy

    Leshy Full Member

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    Very pragmatic and funny Dewi.
    I will if I may ,add my 2p.
    In my family the only true vegetarian is my boy, we do eat meat ...just not as often as we used to.
    He chooses not to , not because of the extinction or protection of the animals in question, but because of the poor conditions that some, (note the word "some") , animals have to endure throughout their life and horrible endings they meet.
    There is an interesting (and disturbing) documentary called : "Earthlings" .
    I suggest you watch it.


    Another reason is the amount of antibiotics and water(?) injected into these meats , I hazard a guess , to weigh the meat further thus literally inflating the prices.
    It's a personal choice, and by no means a correct one but I've long stopped eating processed and/or mass produced meats .
    So if we can afford it , we will eat venison, lamb, rabbit and even beef or pork ...
    But only if I know where it's come from so to speak ...

    But then again I'm a hipocrite, as I love all things leather...😖😁

    Hope it helps
     
    #82 Leshy, Dec 14, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2016
  3. Janne

    Janne M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    I see myself as a vegetarian that occasionally eats meat. Not because of the usual vegetarian reasons, but for medical and tradition reasons.
    Meat is difficult to digest for me.
    In the traditional Central European and scandinavian cuisine, meat has always been a 'luxury' food, until the advent of intensive farming. People in general had meat once, maybe twice a week. A large of the meat was offal.
    I know it was the same in North America.
    What helps is that I like pulses, fruit and vegetables. But not Brocolly. Will not touch that!
     
  4. Janne

    Janne M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    Something for the OP to think of: you can cook "condensed" dishes like casseroles snd soups to save weight, then just add water and heat thrm up.
    A condensed meal should last a couple of days, as it is saltier than when diluted = seni preserved.
     
  5. santaman2000

    santaman2000 M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    The vast majority of ducks worldwide are wild ducks rather than domesticated.
     
  6. santaman2000

    santaman2000 M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    Farmed fish is already a large part of the supply (catfish farming is the second largest crop in Mississippi and a few other states; after chicken farms)

    We already eat copious amounts of bugs (crabs, crawfish, lobster, shrimp, etc.)
     
  7. Robson Valley

    Robson Valley Full Member

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    Here in BC, most edible seafoods are being farmed, from salmon to mussels. Spot prawns and scallops might be a couple of exceptions.
    Seems some of them don't take to cultivation, especially those with density dependent genetics.

    Even scallop harvesting here is not done by crude dragging and upscrewing the sea bottom.
    Instead, the trawl is flying on elevated skiis with almost zero bycatch.

    Several shellfish such as clams, oysters and mussels are being farmed by the Pacific Northwest native peoples just as they were for the past 10,000 years.
    Carbon dating the middens has shown that the shere quantity could no be sustained by wild harvesting.
    Good food, lots of it. I'm not paying some Pacific Rim shyster in a rice paddy.

    I doubt that we will run out of space for meat animals.
    No horror stories other than the post-truth hysteria created by the media.
    Despite media claims, modern farmers and ranchers can't afford to be stupid.
     
  8. Barney Rubble

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    Nout wrong with folk being vegetarian. Each to their own and all that and most have reasons that are personal to them. I must profess that I'm not a vegetarian, indeed nothng arouses my senses more than the whiff of some bacon being cooked!

    I do however think that we, as a society, eat way too much meat and believe that a little bit of balance is required. My wife and I often have two or three veggie meals a week combined with something fishy and then something meaty. It's nice to have that balance in the diet and a little bit of everything broadens your culinary horizons (I'm not a food ponce or anything, I just like my food!!).

    Connected to the above points, there's also a financial element to this. Good quality meat doesn't always come cheap so it pays to incorporate some veggy meals into your diet!
     
  9. dewi

    dewi Full Member

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    Just to clarify, the reason I excluded fish is primarily because of excessive fishing. The oceans of the world, just like anything else, are not infinite and nor are the fish populations… if they don't have the chance to regain their stocks, they tend to be the exception to farming equals expanding population.

    To answer Leshy, I've seen animals slaughtered both here and abroad in a variety of conditions and I broadly agree that some animals are mistreated… not only in the slaughter process, but their day to day lives as well. I can understand someone objecting to the practise of eating meat based on their personal experiences or emotions. But then as you point out, it is then hypocritical to use a byproduct of that meat-making process.

    I realise it might seem as if I'm making light of being a vegetarian, but really, it is something that has puzzled me and when you ask people face to face, they either get a little preachy or annoyed from my experiences. And it turns out that the charity muggers for the WWF don't like the suggestions of farming gorillas for specialist steaks or barbecuing penguins. Apparently it is okay to eat a chicken or a cow, but not okay to eat a gorilla or a penguin. Weird.

    We, as a species, have a wide variety of views on what we can and can't eat. Just something I find interesting.
     
  10. Toddy

    Toddy Mod
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    I'm vegetarian, so are my sons.
    Why ?
    Meat's not food.

    That's it really. It's a total, "I'm not eating that!", type reaction.

    Logically I know that it's edible (but then there's a heck of a lot of 'edible' out there that most wouldn't consider) and that many consider it tasty/necessary/choice/etc.,
    I don't.

    I don't miss it, I never liked eating it even as a child, I don't like the smell of it cooking, I don't like the seperation of most folks now between the living animal and the pre-packaged stuff in the supermarkets.

    Is a meat eating diet healthier ?
    No.

    Is a vegetarian one healthier ?
    Usually, but that's simply because vegetarians are taught to think about getting the balance right so they're aware of their overall diet.

    I keep seperate pots and pans, utensils, etc., even at camp when I'm feeding others, for dead stuff and clean food.
    Yeah, that really is how many vegetarians think of it :)

    I don't rant at folk, I don't cause hassle, if you've made food that I can't eat, I quietly accept that it's my choice, and will go hungry. I taught my sons the same courtesy.
    Usually friends are courteous in return.

    I don't add nuts or onions to food I prepare for folks I know are unable to eat them, so I quietly expect no one to add dead stuff to mine.

    My sons ? They were very little when Jamie said to me, "We don't need to eat meat to live, do we ?", and in the spirit of I never, ever, lied to them, I replied, "Well, no, but it's good food and many people enjoy it".
    "We don't need it and I'm not eating it again", replied my infant son.
    I thought, "Hah, we'll see how long that lasts!".
    Well, over thirty years later he's never eaten meat since. He's as healthy as a horse, he's fit and active and one of life's clever capable people.

    His little brother got to be about the same age (5/6-ish) when I overheard him telling one of his friends, "I'm a funny kind of vegemetarian; I like sausages :)"……and I quietly laughed, he'd never had a real sausage :) Height of BSE and Chernobyl and the like, so I fed them home made veggie bangers.
    Ah well. I did explain later to him when his friend had gone home.

    So, after all that, why be vegetarian ?

    It's choice, it's simply that. It's very good food, it lacks nothing, the variety is immense, the only things we don't eat are the dead animal bits.

    cheers,
    Toddy

    p.s. …….and I'm allergic to fish, and cannot for the life of me understand how anyone ever looked at that cold slimy thing and thought of dinner!
     
    #90 Toddy, Dec 14, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2016
  11. dewi

    dewi Full Member

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    I hadn't looked at it from the perspective that I'm eating dead things… interesting way of viewing it. The pedantic (shurely not!) would say that the vegetables are dead as well, but there are very few meats I could imagine eating raw whereas vegetable wise, there are many.

    Funny you should say that about fish, because I often wonder who discovered what and when. The poison berry thing is often touted as something learned by experience and passed down through generations, but when it comes to root vegetables, fruits and leaves, it is bizarre to think that someone ate a load of leaves one day, dropped dead and everyone else passed it round. Same goes for fish. They are not all edible, so it makes you wonder who caught what and when, and given there are multiple species of each fish that can not always be determined by looks alone, how did they know what they were eating?

    Can I ask M, and this is a genuine question, do you view your vegetarianism as a service to animals? What I mean is, do you look at it that you're preserving animals, or saving them, by not eating them?

    I realise from my earlier comment about eating gorillas and penguins it might seem a loaded question, but I don't mean it like that. I'm trying to understand how a vegetarian, individual or as a collective, views animals in general. Its probably pretty obvious that I look at pretty much any animal and think food… but I appreciate there must be more than one thing that makes people look at an animal differently. For example, dog lovers probably couldn't imagine eating a dog… horse lovers probably don't munch on a Tesco's lasagne… I'd love to add chicken lovers scoffing a KFC, but I'm not entirely convinced every KFC contains something related to chickens.
     
  12. Toddy

    Toddy Mod
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    No. I do support animal welfare in practical ways though, and I do pay extra for the ethically reared, etc., stuff that I buy for my husband.
    Basically, if meat's cheap, generally something suffered for it.

    There's a conundrum I don't get though… if folks are happy to eat meat, why don't they eat extra puppies ? or foals, ? I mean they eat male calves and lambs happily enough, and they're cute too.

    I think meat eating is a personal thing. If you want to and you're happy to do so, and to be aware of a) how it originates and b) are prepared to shimph to make things improve for the factory farming and slaughterhouse practices, then, well, it's up to you. I have few issues on it; just don't mix it in with my food and it's fine.

    I hear all the arguments about mass cereal production, etc., and the stuff about what will grow where, but the reality is that we do live in an overpopulated world, and that the field that supports one cow will produce enough crops to support at least ten people (that's healthily, with variety). Farming practices are improving, (added in bit here, I know that the UK has some of the most ethical farmers on the planet, I'm not getting at any of you. Slaughterhouses are sometimes an entirely different matter though) both livestock and arable, but they're not good enough yet.

    MRM, though folks grue at it, is actually a very practical thing. It produces edible food (and mind humanity can make almost anything edible just by cooking it properly) from what would be wasted bits of the carcass.
    Can't say I buy it right enough, but the theory seems sound.

    M
     
    #92 Toddy, Dec 14, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2016
  13. santaman2000

    santaman2000 M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    I suspect that was a simple matter of watching all the other animals eating fish.
     
  14. santaman2000

    santaman2000 M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    I like some of the bits that would otherwise be wasted: liver comes to mind as a favorite. I'll eat tripe and even chitterlings. All that said, they're nowhere near as healthy as lean meat (hearts are an exception to that but they're also the least appetizing to me; just too tough)

    Then again, is it really "wasted" if it's not eaten by humans? Our pets and livestock still need to be fed; we still need fertilizer. Aren't those legitimate uses for those bits?
     
  15. Toddy

    Toddy Mod
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    You know how much food is thrown out though; if there weren't 'value' in the MRM stuff then it would just be wasted. It was too much like hard work otherwise…..mechanisation though permitted mass bone meal production and MRM is just a further development. Boiled down to gelatine, turned into stocks and soups…..we produce so much meat nowadays though (see Janne's comment; it's very pertinent) that using up the less choice becomes more of an effort when it's not actually required for sale as someone's dinner.

    Fish ? I still don't get it, I really don't. Scales and bones and eyeballs and fins.
    I know how to prep it, to cook it, (need gloves and anti-histamines to do it right enough) everything from salmon to Cullen skink, but I didn't even feed my cat, fish.

    M
     
  16. santaman2000

    santaman2000 M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    The best fish (catfish) don't have scales. Even those with scales can be skinned instead of scaled (almost the only way saltwater fish are prepared)
     
    #96 santaman2000, Dec 14, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2016
  17. santaman2000

    santaman2000 M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    I have a question for the O.P. Many replies have opined that cheese es are good. An opinion I share; but how vegan is vegan? Are you permitting animal products? Dairy, eggs, and honey?
     
  18. GGTBod

    GGTBod Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)

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    Poor slave bees making honey for their all controlling all powerful human overlords :lmao:
     
  19. dewi

    dewi Full Member

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    As I say, there is very little that I wouldn't at least try if it is edible, so puppies, foals, tiny monkey kebabs or even koala stew, any of it… not a problem. But it is a bit strange that meat eaters will distinguish between what is acceptable to process for meat and what isn't. The argument about an animal being intelligent doesn't seem to matter when it comes to pigs, which are I believe as intelligent if not more intelligent than dogs, so what is the distinction between a cow and a horse? A chicken or a parrot? A squirrel or a rat? I made a joke many years ago of altering butcher tickets (the plastic type you see in front of the meat in butchers) by adding Pelican and Penguin Stewing Meat, Panda Steaks and a nice picture of a turtle with Turtle Wings underneath it… I didn't go as far as to put them in the butcher's display, but people were horrified that I would even think about associating a panda or a penguin as food.

    When it comes to the overpopulated world stuff, I think the way of looking at the world is outdated given the technology we have available. If we applied current technology to certain areas of the world with the money we already spend there in aid, we could effectively turn those areas into the bread basket of their regions… there would be little or no food crisis, so overpopulation would only apply to the areas that are truly overpopulated such as the large cities, and… well India and China. Its hard to imagine that 1/3 of the worlds population is concentrated in those two countries.

    Mass production of cereal is probably much more efficient than raising livestock, but then we're picky about the livestock we'll eat. As has been said, we'll gladly eat a cow or a pig, but not a dog or a cat. There would be no need for dogs homes if we ate dogs… and thinking about it, the deer population in Scotland… thats getting a little large. We could probably eat a fair amount of them. Resolve the grey squirrel problem… eat them. A rat problem, don't send in Rent-a-Kill… send in the game keepers. And foxes… causing a problem in the local town? Replace the traditional sausages in the chippy with fox sausages. Job done.

    Might all sound very silly, but I'm being serious (to a point)… I wholeheartedly agree we waste food terribly in the western world, but not just into supermarket bins… if we're going to cull animals for whatever reason, and they're safe to eat.. we should be eating them… or the meat eaters should.

    A side point, have you ever seen Kill it, Cook it, Eat it? It is amazing how many people go off eating meat when they see the process of turning a fluffy lamb into chops.
     
  20. slowworm

    slowworm Settler

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    I think for many bee keepers it's the other way around. We're constantly buying and making new housing for them, feeding them, looking after them and then the ungrateful little things go and swarm. :rolleyes:
     

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