Tiny bit of a rant - GRRRRRR!!!

[Cobweb]

Just been on Flickr where I post my stuff occasionally, I find it fun and a good place to showcase my work.
Most of it is copyrighted and it states it clearly on the pge... I got this posted on one of my pics the other day, only read it today, about ten minutes ago actually and I'm seriously p**sed :BlueTeamE

Hi there,

I spent some time on your photo stream and I really like some pictures you have posted there!!!

Can you please take some pictures of your fist ?

.... I just could bet it looks really cool to see you showing your bare fist ( close up in focus ! ) Punching the cam.... Rings on your fingers would be cool - rings look really tough on a fist..... Right in the kisser GREAT!
No worries … your face is not visible on the picture unless you request it !!! …..The picture will just your fist !!! Your FIST ONLY !!!

Synopsis/ Reason is:
I’m working on a page against “Violence at schools” and “Against Domestic Violence “…. you really could help me out with your pictures for my page layout! I’m selecting those pictures until I have enough ….. I need like 1000 of them because I want to do something like an “Internet-Poster” …. A huge picture with 1000 fists on it …. huge sized !!!!!!!!!!! I will use it as my background of the page which means as soon you click on the page the fist will show up …………… and I will show other people how many people are against violence!

(ONE FIST = ONE PERSON AGAINST VIOLENCE!!!)

Just post those fist pictures (Please at least 5!) on your stream or send them to me per e-mail to:

Pondmarc1@hotmail.com

I appreciate your help!!!!!!!!!!



Ttyl, Peace and out
Marc

By the way : Just check my photo stream, I have some examples up ….. but there is also an example below the message. It shows how the picture should look like …. !!!

Posted 3 days ago. ( permalink | delete )

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Michelle Jones UK says:
You do realise that it is illegal to take peoples photographs, especially when they are copyrighted!!!

I find it extremely rude that you would assume that I would take a photograph with the requirements you have set out above so you can just get a free picture?! ***?

Never mind about the time it has taken me to develop my skill to the point where I can and do make money from it. Never mind the money I have invested in training and equipment to make a photograph.

You don't care about that, you just want a free picture, well flickr's free isn't it? so all the pictures on it are for free right? WRONG. Flickr is to showcase images, not for thieving wa**ers to take what they want regardless. And to request a photographer to take specific image for them?! It's a fricking outrage!!!

*** mate...

The best part is, the bloke posted a picture to show the type of photo he wanted from me?!

Here is the link to the original: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mjphoto/2182788959/

 

[locum76]

Meh, shy bairns get no sweeties. All he did was ask, all you have to do is give him a KB.

 

[Doc]

I guess he did say please, and compliment you on your work, and it might be a good cause (or it might be a less good cause: a school project or competition entry or even a commercial advertising project)

I did think the 'at least 5' bit in his request was verging on rudeness though.

Still, I think he'll take your reply as a 'no'

 

[Laurentius]

Well I have seen photographs of mine appear all over the place on the web, mostly without permission. I would myself only object if there were blatant commercial exploitation there, or passing it off as someone else's picture other than mine. In most cases where I have seen my photo's used I would have given permission had the perp asked.

On the other hand, when I was working as a professional photographer that would have been another matter.

 

[tobes01]

Can't see what the problem is. Offer the photo of the fist. Connecting with Pondmarc's nose.

 

[FreddyFish]

I can see why you are pizzed off but if you don't ask you don't get.

So he is guilty of being unaware and maybe insensitive, I think he's just a bit wrapped up I his own project.
But it's just aswell that's not against the law or we would all be guilty at some time.

 

[DavidJT]

Thankfully Clause 43 is now history...

http://www.stop43.org.uk/

 

[hertsboy]

If that's a "Tiny bit of a rant" I wouldn't like to be around when you have a big bit of a rant.

 

[SOAR]

Good on ya for lashing out at him!.
It reads a little odd to me tbh, (ONE FIST = ONE PERSON AGAINST VIOLENCE!!!) surley the image of the fist is a threatening image!.

Could have been worse could have been a kinky request

 

[MrEd]

its illegal to use other people pictures without asking their express permission.

seems to me he was asking you to take a picture, and was then asking permission to use it. perhaps he really admired your work and thought that you could help.

As the saying goes 'if you dont ask you dont get'

and there are various levels of copyright (btw NEVER sell copyright to your images lol) i use the one where peiople can reproduce my work as long as iam credited as the original source - they arent however allowed to edit the photos in any way.

I think your reply was a bit OTT to be honest, a simple no would have sufficed rather than getting aggressive, its not like he used one of your pictures and THEN told you after the fact - a situationw hich would **** me off to lol

anyway, each to his own, i dont really care

 

[Cobweb]

Thank you for your replies it's interesting to see the situation from other angles.

The post he put seemed like a 'form' that he copied and pasted and to me that is more rude than simply asking outright. I have had people request specific photographs to be taken on flickr before and usually they have been PM'd to me. I've responded with an appropriate answer, usually 'no'.

In reply to MrEd in particular, the reason I got aggressive was mainly because the poster seemed to expect me to do the work.

In a proper photo request, you ask if the photographer would be willing to take on an assignment, the photographer would reply with either a yes or a no and then the photographer would request specific details of the project, if the details are good and fair then the project would be accepted. The post reads as if the poster assumed that I would take on the project and that is awfully rude.
Also, in the post, there is no mention of copyright at all.

I have had my work taken, used and found out after the fact, which I promptly sent the user an invoice and a letter stating (in legalese) that they either cease and desist or pay up. I'm used to copyright infringement now, it's part of the territory if you post your work online.

I have a feeling that the poster won't ever read my reply, but I do hope that someone reads it and takes note that photographs online are not part of some huge free for all.

 

[relfy]

Cobweb, Out of interest - how have you found out when your pictures are stolen as I would have no clue. I had one stolen once and found it completely by accident, I could have easily not have found it. Also, when you've sent your 'legalese' letter - what kind of result does it have? How many have actually replied?, or more to the point, paid up? Also I guess this is just about people publishing your pictures online... whole other kettle of fish when its hard publishing?

El

 

[wanderingblade]

............seems to me he was asking you to take a picture, and was then asking permission to use it. perhaps he really admired your work and thought that you could help.

Have to be honest - I think you got the wrong end of the stick here. If this guy was just looking for free pics he would be ripping them off without making contact.

The fact that you got a request for permission seems to imply this person is at least trying to play it straight.

 

[demographic]

Meh, there's people getting hacked to bits with machetes, bombed to fook for oil/gas pipelines and you're worried cos someone asked if they can use your pics?

Its a bit bleedin cheeky admittedly but I wouldn't go to war over it.

 

[teflon]

Just reply to every picture request with your terms. It's polite and professional and makes clear you mean business. No matter how modest, the project could have been a good one. Also, while it has its place, perhaps you should think twice about Flickr. Do you really need it?

"...in the post, there is no mention of copyright at all..." That's because it was your job to inform him. Good luck.

 

[helixpteron]

Perhaps consider developing your skills as a professional in order to gain the ability to respond to a request with civility, rather than abuse!

Given your abusive response, you would appear to be the ideal subject matter for the project...

 

[Cobweb]

It's good to see the wide and *ahem* varied responses on here, thank you all for commenting - I value each and every comment, even though I don't agree with a couple...

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Relfy - There is an image search called TinEye which might help, it's found my pics in unauthorised situations before.

Most people apologise profusely and take the image down. The letter is pretty much a scare tactic, I'll get the general public to realise what copyright actually means... one by one if I have to

I've only ever had to take two companies (quite well known, and who should've known better) to court and I did win. The one company used my image in a print ad, the other used my image to illustrate an article. Use for which I did not give them a release license for, they couldn't produce either the raw files (I had them, and produced them) or any documentation at the hearing so I won.


My advice is that if they don't reply to the letter, refuse to take the image down or if you feel that they have made money from your image and you deserve recompense - consult a solicitor and they'll walk you through the process


Just a note, print publishing and web publishing are the same badger. It's your image in the public domain, making someone money one way or another. Or it can be promoting a viewpoint (if published by a blogger) that you might not agree with.

Also if there are people in the photo and you don't have model releases for them, they can take you to court (even if the image is being used illegally) if the picture is used to promote or make money for a company.

You can post images of people online without a model release, as long as you are not selling prints of the images or selling image licenses.


I know my field (people photography) - but if you are into landscapes mainly, you might want to send Wayland a PM regarding the licensing rights... I don't know for sure and don't quote me on this but for city-scapes I think you might need a property release if you plan to sell the images???

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Teflon To be honest, I'm fed up with Flickr and have been thinking of getting rid of my account for a while now... What I didn't mention in my main post was that I get these things every week, sometimes 10 or more 'can you shoot xyz and post it on flickr with the tags xyz' I'm just fed up with it tbh. I usually delete them but this was a perfect example and so I have left it up.

Flickr used to be good, a nice atmosphere to showcase images and get prospects after yahoo has taken over, it's just gone downhill with photrolls all over the place and nothing being done about them... it's turning out to be the craigslist of photo sites.

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Helix

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The sad, sad thing is that this was probally posted to ten other photographers, perhaps a couple not as well versed in copyright law or as experienced as I am in the field would take up the 'challenge'... would work for free for a stranger that is possibly making a wage from the project and the photographer gets zilch - actually they would end up with minus money due to DSLR's being designed to fail after a certain amount of shutter actuations so it costs a few pence every picture taken... not to mention electricity, time, photoshop...ect...

It's digital slave labour imo.


Gaaah! Another long post, sorry guys - I could write about photography, hidden costs, portrait licensing and copyright for ages

 

[MrEd]

Have to be honest - I think you got the wrong end of the stick here. If this guy was just looking for free pics he would be ripping them off without making contact.

The fact that you got a request for permission seems to imply this person is at least trying to play it straight.

what i got the wrong end of the stick? im confused, i thought that was what i wrote

 

[relfy]

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Relfy - There is an image search called TinEye which might help, it's found my pics in unauthorised situations before.

Most people apologise profusely and take the image down. The letter is pretty much a scare tactic, I'll get the general public to realise what copyright actually means... one by one if I have to

I've only ever had to take two companies (quite well known, and who should've known better) to court and I did win. The one company used my image in a print ad, the other used my image to illustrate an article. Use for which I did not give them a release license for, they couldn't produce either the raw files (I had them, and produced them) or any documentation at the hearing so I won.


My advice is that if they don't reply to the letter, refuse to take the image down or if you feel that they have made money from your image and you deserve recompense - consult a solicitor and they'll walk you through the process


Just a note, print publishing and web publishing are the same badger. It's your image in the public domain, making someone money one way or another. Or it can be promoting a viewpoint (if published by a blogger) that you might not agree with.

Also if there are people in the photo and you don't have model releases for them, they can take you to court (even if the image is being used illegally) if the picture is used to promote or make money for a company.

You can post images of people online without a model release, as long as you are not selling prints of the images or selling image licenses.


I know my field (people photography) - but if you are into landscapes mainly, you might want to send Wayland a PM regarding the licensing rights... I don't know for sure and don't quote me on this but for city-scapes I think you might need a property release if you plan to sell the images???

--

Teflon To be honest, I'm fed up with Flickr and have been thinking of getting rid of my account for a while now... What I didn't mention in my main post was that I get these things every week, sometimes 10 or more 'can you shoot xyz and post it on flickr with the tags xyz' I'm just fed up with it tbh. I usually delete them but this was a perfect example and so I have left it up.

Flickr used to be good, a nice atmosphere to showcase images and get prospects after yahoo has taken over, it's just gone downhill with photrolls all over the place and nothing being done about them... it's turning out to be the craigslist of photo sites.

--
Helix

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Thanks Cobweb, I'll have a look at that site. I haven't been selling my pics up until now anyway as my camera is not good enough, although some people have asked for them so its been in my mind as something I'd like to get good (and rich) enough to do in the future. But the fact I haven't been trying to make money from it has made me worry less about it - perhaps that's foolish of me. I haven't had many requests like the one's you talk about, but HAVE had a lot of charities and journalists asking to use them for single articles 'for a good cause' - its difficult for me to say no to these as I've often been sympathetic to the cause, have checked the site and seen its reputable, and they aren't great pictures imo and I'm not selling them anyway.

It is from flickr that I've had my pics stolen - extraordinary. They've just copied the standard image (its easy, there is a margin round the edge of the spaceball you can drag the image to a new browser and copy it from there, I tried it myself just to see how easy!) and they decided that's good enough res for their purposes - cheap skates.

I even found one on someone else's flickr site - along with a whole load of other people's photos that I recognised too. All just copied there with the same photo ID and everything and no attempt at acknowledgement or credit. Now that's just silly and I told her so, and everyone I knew who had photos were there. I think she was just a bit clueless tbh, although I do tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. A bit like your guy - who at least did ask even if he was a 14 year old who thinks the world is there to do his bidding. He might grow out of it with any luck - I have a feeling your reply was a sharp lesson. Lol.
It is a shame how flickr has changed, I completely agree. I let my pro account lapse and although I'm tempted to renew it so I can see what's in the back, I ask myself - what exactly would I be paying for now? Its not like anyone behind it cares about what we actually want anyway, as shown by their determination to bring in video and make it into youtube or facebook.

 

[Cobweb]

Relfy, If people are asking for your pictures because they feel they are good enough to help promote them then they are good enough to sell... I am a bit of a strict person when it comes to companies using my creativity to sell or promote their products, even charities. I know that sounds harsh, but I look at it this way...

The person writing the articles or creating the website is getting paid, the art director for the project is getting paid, the head of the company gets paid, even the cleaners in the building are getting paid so why not me? I have a house to run, people to feed ect... so why work for free?

I've spent thousands and thousands on training, equipment - not just the cameras, but lenses, flashes, cleaning products, memory cards, filters, modifiers and lots of other bits and pieces. I've spent thousands of hours learning an working at my craft, I've spent thousands on computers and lightroom and photoshop and many many more hours learning how to use those programs to their full ability.

And then they ask me to take all of that time and money and give them my skill and creativity for free.

You say that your camera isn't great... so what? It's your eye, skill and time that create a picture, not the camera. Okay, so if you show up at a paid job with a Canon rebel it would be seriously unprofessional and I would seriously recommend against starting up a business until you had the proper professional equipment but for the shots you already have, why not ask for something?

If it's good enough to be printed, it's good enough to be sold.

Decide on what is fair recompense, I have a set amount... use this site below to discover your cost of doing business - this will be the minimum you need to make to keep even, add some more on for profit.

http://www.nppa.org/professional_development/business_practices/cdb/cdbcalc.cfm

It's in dollars, but if you just ignore the symbol it won't matter.


NB: You NEVER sell copyright, only license to use the photo.

eg: License for use 1 year - print run up to 10,000 - 1/8 page. After the year is up, they have to give you more money or discontinue the run.