1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hey Guest, We're having our annual Winter Moot and we'd love you to come. PLEASE LOOK HERE to secure your place and get more information.
    For forum threads CLICK HERE
    Dismiss Notice

Rich Hall and American Indians

Discussion in 'Other Chatter' started by rik_uk3, Feb 7, 2017.

  1. rik_uk3

    rik_uk3 Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2006
    Messages:
    13,320
    Likes Received:
    19
    Location:
    south wales
    In the UK you have the Welsh language being promoted, dedicated TV channel (http://www.s4c.cymru/cy/), the language being mandatory in early learning, road signs in English and Welsh and yet...the language is dying still.

    There are 'pockets' in Wales where Welsh is widely spoken but overall its on its way out even after the government spending millions of pounds on promoting it.

    Because of the regional variations in the language and dialects mistakes still happen

    [video]http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/road-sign-makes-no-sense-12606633[/video]
     
  2. dannyk64

    dannyk64 Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2015
    Messages:
    106
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    Nottingham
    The same thing occurred in Ireland when the independent government began to encourage the teaching of Gaelic in school, at first the language continued to disappeared and now the number of Irish speakers is growing consistently (up by 7.1% since the last census). It will take many years before the welsh language gets a solid foothold again but it will happen.

    The protection of native languages and cultures is important not only from a historical preservation perspective but from a national identity one
     
  3. santaman2000

    santaman2000 M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2011
    Messages:
    15,975
    Likes Received:
    692
    Location:
    Florida
    That's both the advantage and the curse of the outside education. It prepares the young for life outside their early village upbringing. It enables them to move into the outside world and find employment. In so doing it dooms their ancestral way of life as they depart to that outside world instead of returning home. Much like rural lifestyles in general
     
  4. boatman

    boatman Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2007
    Messages:
    2,444
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Cornwall
    Now here is something that I have been called xenophobic about on Facebook. A bee in my bonnet is the lack of teaching and singing of English songs in English schools. It puzzles me that it seems that all countries nurture a corpus of traditional songs except ours. And we talk about the destruction of cultures in foreign lands. I could go on that if a "folk song" is taught in a school it is more likely to be imported than one of ours. Fine if all are taught but they are not.
     
  5. dannyk64

    dannyk64 Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2015
    Messages:
    106
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    Nottingham
    The English culture is not going anywhere, English songs are sang and English literature is read in schools the country over. The idea that the countries culture is being eroded is pretty hyperbolic.
     
  6. boatman

    boatman Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2007
    Messages:
    2,444
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Cornwall
    Optimist! Care to give references of such singing etc?
     
  7. boatman

    boatman Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2007
    Messages:
    2,444
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Cornwall
    Funny how the response to claims of decline in culture of this country is denial while we are asked to accept without query claims for similar in other countries.
     
  8. rik_uk3

    rik_uk3 Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2006
    Messages:
    13,320
    Likes Received:
    19
    Location:
    south wales
    A big hurdle to overcome is the fact that youngsters have no interest in learning Welsh, certainly in the industrial south... the language was beaten out of folk not that many years agao https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Not
     
  9. dannyk64

    dannyk64 Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2015
    Messages:
    106
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    Nottingham
    Pessimist! I went to a state run catholic school in Nottingham leaving in 2012 and we where taught traditional English songs (despite much complaining). Orchestra which included singing was a compulsory part of the curriculum as it is in many schools. Jerusalem, God save the queen, Rule Britannia, land of hope and glory are just some of the songs I remember being taught. Never mind all the hymns we were made to chant most of which were written in England have been sung by the English for hundreds of years.

    I know for those that where good at it there was also competitions between many of the locals schools in which these songs would also feature.

    As for literature Lord Byron, Dickens, Virginia Woolf, D.H. Lawrence and more routinely appear on the curriculum never mind all the British history you end up studying.

    Is there any evidence to support your previous comments? as I think it is a tad farfetched to claim that the apathy and disinterest that is sometimes shown by English people to their own culture is the same as the active destruction of cultures in other parts of the world.

    I will also concede however that more English folk should be taught in schools, especially that of the less nationalistic nature. A bit of June tabor or Barry Dransfield might have some beneficial effects on some kids
     
    #149 dannyk64, Feb 23, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2017
  10. mrcharly

    mrcharly Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,246
    Likes Received:
    33
    Location:
    North Yorkshire, UK
    My kids did loads of singing in their school and the vast majority if it (probably over 99%) was traditional English songs. They also studied English literature, from celtic stories, (including, sorry some Irish material) to Shakespeare).
     
  11. Leshy

    Leshy Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2016
    Messages:
    2,394
    Likes Received:
    54
    Location:
    Wiltshire
    That's rubbish boatman .
    It does sound like you got a big chip on the shoulder ...

    My kids go to a C of E school , and they learn hymns and traditional English songs again and again...
    From "London Bridge is falling down" to God save the queen , hope and glory and more...

    Even though we are not religious people , at least is teaching my kids tolerance and acceptance of other religions and cultures.
    Despite it being a Church Of England school , they have Hinduism week, Judaism week , sihk week , Muslim week.... and at the moment Buddhist week.
    Politheist and montheist religions.

    Studying China as the terms topic , from pre Marco Polo, Genghis khan and the trade routes to present day manufacturing and culture .
    Very inclusive school and not by any means patronising.

    This is not a private school , is a free state sponsored school.
     
    #151 Leshy, Feb 23, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2017
  12. Toddy

    Toddy Mod
    Mod

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2005
    Messages:
    34,976
    Likes Received:
    1,307
    Location:
    S. Lanarkshire
    Ah, but, those are English/english songs, not english as she is spoken in the Shires and the counties type English.

    Folks songs, bothy ballads, songs from the old halls, songs from the fields, work songs, navvy songs, shanties….those the children rarely hear, and even more rarely are taught. Maybe in a pub :sigh:

    M
     
  13. Joe tahkahikew

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2014
    Messages:
    405
    Likes Received:
    159
    Location:
    Black Lake Indian Bnd Post Canada
    Boatman I don't know whether this was meant for me. If it was, perhaps you could visit us and give us the benefit of your great wisdom in these matters. Perhaps you could even spare the time to show us how to survive in the forests too?

    Joe ;-)
     
  14. Leshy

    Leshy Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2016
    Messages:
    2,394
    Likes Received:
    54
    Location:
    Wiltshire
    Cynicism...

    [​IMG]


    You've managed to persistently and consistently be totally insensitive to a very sensitive subject that we all cared to be careful how to word and put our opinions on.

    As a direct descendant of a Auschwitz survivor , I know how it hurts even after decades gone past .

    Not pseudo guilt of foreign suffering ...

    The mistakes of the past should be lessons for the future... Regardless of where in the world .
     
  15. Toddy

    Toddy Mod
    Mod

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2005
    Messages:
    34,976
    Likes Received:
    1,307
    Location:
    S. Lanarkshire
    Y'know this internet stuff is fun, but it really does lack the reality of intonation, of emotions, of the little nuances of speech and manner that ease social interaction.

    That's especially true when a topic becomes heated. Offering advice is not the same as offering offence. It can all too easily be taken as such though, and that conflates an already 'hot' topic.

    I like you all; you are good company on a truly miserable day (sodden wet, windy, been snowing and now drizzling sleet) and you're a knowledgeable bunch so it's never boring.
    Such a diversity of backgrounds too, and that brings so much to the conversations as well.

    It's lunchtime. I'm away to bake gingernuts :)

    M
     
  16. boatman

    boatman Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2007
    Messages:
    2,444
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Cornwall
    You seem to give us advice from your great wisdom, so? Incidentally is it not thanks to things and methods introduced by incomers that you do not actually have to make your living from the forest, unless you choose to.?
     
    #156 boatman, Feb 23, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2017
  17. Old Bones

    Old Bones Settler

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2009
    Messages:
    730
    Likes Received:
    57
    Location:
    East Anglia
    And that sounds the same for my kids schools, plus the one I work in. The 6-7 year olds where I work did The Great Fire of London last term, and will be doing Castle's next (with the obligatory visit to a castle). And thats standard every year - my kids both went to that school.

    Traditional folk songs? I know they've done 'London's Burning', plus the usual ones that any kids will learn at school, but I dont expect them to learn any more folk songs than when I was that age 40 plus years ago.

    And in a pub, at work, in the fields were where they were always taught - I suspect that navvy songs (even the cleaned up versions) were not standard school fare. The standard school curriculum has never been set up to do anything more regional or adventurous than perhaps 'On Illkla Moor Baht 'at'.

    Folk songs are something we learn in a community or family - and if that has broekn up, moved away, etc, then they start to die out.

    We've become an increasingly urban species for millenia, and the societies of Western Europe have been largely urban and often highly mobile for a very long time. And even those close knit urban networks have become strained or broken - as is pointed out in Brassed Off, how can you have a pit brass band when there is no longer a pit? It much more difficult to learn traditional mining songs from South Wales (where my grandmothers family worked in the mines), when people dont work in the mines any longer, but might get a job in a call centre or 'logistics'. The memory gets lost, and even in the 19th century, researchers were doing their best to gather up what they could before it was gone.

    There was a report on Radio 4's The One O'Clock News yesterday about the rise of Le Pen in France, and how she could win with the support of the rural vote. A commentator was quoted as saying that the rural areas want it all as it was, with no changes, even though their children know there not the jobs to support them, and if they get an education, they go somewhere else. And that explains perhaps the vote for Brexit and Trump - the yearning for a possibly mythical (or often long lost) tight knit traditional society, with its own identity, songs, etc.

    True. The biggest problem is due to the need for a narrow curriculum and thus only a relatively limited range as to what can be taught - there simply is the time for anything too different.
     
  18. boatman

    boatman Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2007
    Messages:
    2,444
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Cornwall
    no lack of empathy on my part with those who suffered and are suffering but should I go on about my Father being away for four years during the war fighting to liberate Auschwitz and the effects that and bombing had on my Mother? Of course not, s... happened it is now that is important.
     
  19. dannyk64

    dannyk64 Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2015
    Messages:
    106
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    Nottingham
    its funny how people make grand statements without offering any evidence to support it. I do deny that English culture is in decline, a point which is supported by the national curriculum and the huge amounts of money going into preserving and encouraging British writers, artists, musicians, landmarks etc. both old and new.

    Furthermore no one is asking people to accept claims of cultural suppression without thinking about it first however in the case of the Native Americans there is clear evidence that they have been and continue to be attacked by the Federal government.
     
  20. Joe tahkahikew

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2014
    Messages:
    405
    Likes Received:
    159
    Location:
    Black Lake Indian Bnd Post Canada
    I'm not aware I've given advice on this subject. Nor have I picked on you white folk. I was simply stating facts that I think are widely held. And I actually stated that some of the treaties bought us benefits.

    I'm not aware I've said anything other than facts about incomers such as non first nations coming to live in our communities. I'm not aware I've said anything judgemental about them.

    And I did not come on here to argue against any one's own beliefs and say they are wrong - I'm not aware I have,

    I'm not aware of suggesting that hunting for a living is either good or bad regardless of who provides the food on the plate. In fact I only brefly mention it on this thread/post.

    Sorry if I've offended you.

    Joe
     
    #160 Joe tahkahikew, Feb 23, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2017

Share This Page