Permaculture

[Orchard]

Now about permaculture. To me I view it as common sense but then I've been gardening for many years and I initially came across permaculture when I was reading up on things I was already doing such as increasing the number of perennial plants.

I also get the Permaculture magazine and although I think it could be improved I find the odd useful idea from it. Their online site has a large amount of information though such as these videos from Patrick Whitefield that may be worth looking at: http://www.permaculture.co.uk/search/node/patrick whitefield video

I'm currently creating a garden in a woodland and one day would like to plant up a few acres from scratch. At the moment I've lifted the canopy of some alder trees (left them in place as they fix nitrogen), planted various other edible trees, shrubs, perennial crops and ground cover and I'm having great fun watching it develop whilst getting a fair bit of food.

I noticed the original post mentions browsing animals. I have plenty about from deer to voles but the usual precautions are used, so the area is protected by some recycled deer fence, and I'm trying out rabbit/vole guards and will be trying to keep the number of rabbits, squirrels etc down which provides extra grub!

Any chance of pic's when you can please ? Are Alder's going to remain as the top canopy or do you have some traditional long term timber as standards coming through ?
Haha, I meant selective domesticated browsing !

 

[British Red]

Don't misunderstand me - I'm not against some of the concepts in permaculture -I just don't like the near cult status that it attracts. Sensible people (like slowworm and TeeDee) will use it as one of many techniques from which they draw to achieve a food source that is right for them. I do wonder about people who fixate on a single technique though - be it square foot gardening, no dig beds or permaculture. It reminds me of the old saying "when the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail".

 

[Orchard]

Firstly I should say I have no connection to Martin other than buying a couple of his books and ordering some seeds. But a few facts:

He still runs tours, costs from £3 to £6 if you check: http://www.agroforestry.co.uk/courses.html#tours

He runs a 2.5 day course for £195: http://www.agroforestry.co.uk/courses.html#fg

He has a very good list of plants available: http://www.agroforestry.co.uk/plantorders.html

Knowing the work he has done, books and research he has written and people who've been on the tours they look cheap to me but that depends on what you expect to get out of them.

If you're new to the game I would start off by looking for someone nearer to home, there's plenty of forest gardeners about these days. As with life in general I expect there are people providing courses that aren't worth paying for but a little research first should avoid that.

Thanks for that, I'd missed the 'tour' bit, may be worth popping down before subscribing to his course

 

[Orchard]

Don't misunderstand me - I'm not against some of the concepts in permaculture -I just don't like the near cult status that it attracts.

Hahaha, i've never experienced that thankfully!

Sensible people (like slowworm and TeeDee) will use it as one of many techniques from which they draw to achieve a food source that is right for them. I do wonder about people who fixate on a single technique though - be it square foot gardening, no dig beds or permaculture. It reminds me of the old saying "when the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail".

I don't get how you perceive 'permaculture' (which I imagine has a wide umbra) as a single technique BR. Like I mentioned earlier, i'm specifically interested in 'agroforestry' which attempts to produce a sustainable synthesis of what's commonly considered two seperate disciplines and employs a lot of techniques. Have you watched the vid's I posted btw ?

 

[British Red]

I have watched them in the past - indeed I subscribed for a year to permaculture magazine (that was a waste of money for me - indeed the magazine gave me "cult" impression very strongly).

I see permaculture as a technique or an approach if you prefer - it is not the same as square foot gardening (for example) or the deep artificial mulch of the "Back to Eden" approach or the intensity of the Victorian walled garden. All these different approaches have merits and drawbacks. To me the sesible gardener understands as many approaches as possible and picks the one most suitable for the task in hand. Its all just gardening at the end of the day.

 

[Orchard]

You may be right but the idea is that by companion planting the different plants look after each other. I've mulched the grass which is aleopathic to apple trees and planted clover instead which fixes nitrogen in the soil. I've planted comfrey around the trees as it shades out weeds and and provides natural fertliser when chopped. I've also planted perrenial onions, chives and mint as the pests that like apple trees are put off by the smell.

Originally the orchard was waist deep in brambles and I'm sure a couple of pigs would have saved me a great deal of work. In future I'd like to borrow some.

It sounds like you have it sorted now ! I'm sure some one local with pigs or goats would have loved to have helped you out. Is there a resource/table that you know of regarding particular aleopathic relationships please ? Was it the particular grass that was there, or all grasses / just your variety of apple, or all apple trees ?

 

[Swallow]

I see it a bit different to Red, though obviously we have a similar experience of the magazine.

"Permaculture" to me is a substitute phrase for "Holistic" which is a substiture phrase for "System Wide" which is a substitute phrase for "End to End" which is a substitute phrase for "looking after yourself by looking after what is around you" which is a substitute phase for "Common Sense".

Permaculture should IMO reattach you to your senses, and not just produce a new set of dogmas.

Like any buzz-word with overuse it aquires baggage.

At the point where you can buy t-shirts with the buzz-word on it, you know you are going to have to have your common sense fully engaged with anything attached to the word, because you will need to determine whether it is dross, band-wagon or genuinely useful.

 

[woodstock]

Good luck with the experiments! It seems to be a truism that one shouldn't fight nature too much otherwise one will expend too much energy doing so for poor yields (like modern agriculture). Saying that, most Perm's tend to skillfully use pioneer's to refine the habitat.
What is this Tipi Valley Woodstock?

Its a village of about 100+ made up of men women and children who choose to live a alternative lifestyle, dwellings are Tipi's Yurts and benders, wood is collected from surrounding woodland and water for bathing drinking and cooking comes from the streams within Tipi valley, here is a link. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCZCv_m1xkY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww7MXAgu0D0

 

[Orchard]

Its a village of about 100+ made up of men women and children who choose to live a alternative lifestyle, dwellings are Tipi's Yurts and benders, wood is collected from surrounding woodland and water for bathing drinking and cooking comes from the streams within Tipi valley, here is a link. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCZCv_m1xkY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww7MXAgu0D0

Thanks, i'll check it out

 

[unruly]

It sounds like you have it sorted now ! I'm sure some one local with pigs or goats would have loved to have helped you out. Is there a resource/table that you know of regarding particular aleopathic relationships please ? Was it the particular grass that was there, or all grasses / just your variety of apple, or all apple trees ?

Thanks I'm getting there slowly but enjoying the process.
Sorry I can't be more precise but I think most grasses are allelopathic to most apple trees (I may have dreamed this).

 

[Orchard]

I suppose most ideas (read: baseline holistic approach) have various interpretations and varied practitioners.
Not too sure about 'common sense', that seems to tend to degredation, dependency on imports, and wasted output imo, with a wise few and some of the 'Permies' bucking the trend

 

[Orchard]

Thanks I'm getting there slowly but enjoying the process.
Sorry I can't be more precise but I think most grasses are allelopathic to most apple trees (I may have dreamed this).

Hahaha, I had a quick look and couldn't find anything, but that's probably me, lol. Not a lot of concrete research on this though is there ?
Glad you're getting there, try to post pic's please !!!

 

[unruly]

What is this Tipi Valley Woodstock?

Did you hear about the Native American that drank 100 cups of tea?

 

[Orchard]

Did you hear about the Native American that drank 100 cups of tea?

Haha, mine's just been shipped today, I hope it's less fluid

I've just watched the clips Woodstock linked, interesting place!

 

[Swallow]

I suppose most ideas (read: baseline holistic approach) have various interpretations and varied practitioners.
Not too sure about 'common sense', that seems to tend to degredation, dependency on imports, and wasted output imo, with a wise few and some of the 'Permies' bucking the trend

Like many words in the dictionary these days the original meaning is lost, but originally it meant something like coming from your senses rather than imagination.

Just about all Sepp Holzers stuff comes from his common sense when applying that meaning.

 

[Orchard]

Like many words in the dictionary these days the original meaning is lost, but originally it meant something like coming from your senses rather than imagination.

Just about all Sepp Holzers stuff comes from his common sense when applying that meaning.

Cheers for that Swallow

 

[slowworm]

Any chance of pic's when you can please ? Are Alder's going to remain as the top canopy or do you have some traditional long term timber as standards coming through ?
Haha, I meant selective domesticated browsing !

The alders are currently about 20 years old and have been trimmed up to provide light for the rest of the area. I'll see how things evolve before deciding what to do with them, there's plenty elsewhere in the woodland. I've planted quite a few lime trees (tilia) but these will be coppiced/pollarded to keep them small to provide spring greens. I might post photos when I take some later in the year.

 

[milius2]

The alders are currently about 20 years old and have been trimmed up to provide light for the rest of the area. I'll see how things evolve before deciding what to do with them, there's plenty elsewhere in the woodland. I've planted quite a few lime trees (tilia) but these will be coppiced/pollarded to keep them small to provide spring greens. I might post photos when I take some later in the year.

I'd love to see those pictures. I have a plan for lime tree as well, I want to plant them on the edge of property together with maple and some bushes perhaps or hazel. Lime is great for leaves, but also is great for wood and the bees absolutely loves the flowers. The flowers themselves is a good source of income if picked and sold to the farmacist. Maple is fast growing, good wood, and maybe a maple syrup could be done too?? Alright I see this needs a separate topic..

 

[slowworm]

Luckily I've got a couple of 20 year old lime trees elsewhere on my bit of woodland to use the wood and bark from, sadly no sign of flowers yet (commonly used for tea aren't they?). Out of the ones I've planted the small leaved lime is doing better than the large leaf ones and should be old enough this spring to start nibbling on.

I've also put in three different cultivars of hazel, there's loads of wild and semi-wild hazels about but hopefully the cultivars will produce bigger nuts and help cross pollinate the wild ones producing better crops. Then there's the usual bushes such as blackcurrants, blueberries, gooseberries, sea buckthorn, various rubus (raspberry, tayberry, loganberry, blackberry, wineberry, artic raspberry etc); mints, wild strawberries etc for ground cover and not forgetting hops growing over the deer fencing providing edible spring shoots as well as hops later in the year!

The main problem I have is the poor soil fertility. I've growing a couple of types of comfrey and leave deep rooted plants like dock growing to harvest the leaves and have a decent compost heap but it's not enough really.

 

[Orchard]

Luckily I've got a couple of 20 year old lime trees elsewhere on my bit of woodland to use the wood and bark from, sadly no sign of flowers yet (commonly used for tea aren't they?). Out of the ones I've planted the small leaved lime is doing better than the large leaf ones and should be old enough this spring to start nibbling on.

I've also put in three different cultivars of hazel, there's loads of wild and semi-wild hazels about but hopefully the cultivars will produce bigger nuts and help cross pollinate the wild ones producing better crops. Then there's the usual bushes such as blackcurrants, blueberries, gooseberries, sea buckthorn, various rubus (raspberry, tayberry, loganberry, blackberry, wineberry, artic raspberry etc); mints, wild strawberries etc for ground cover and not forgetting hops growing over the deer fencing providing edible spring shoots as well as hops later in the year!

The main problem I have is the poor soil fertility. I've growing a couple of types of comfrey and leave deep rooted plants like dock growing to harvest the leaves and have a decent compost heap but it's not enough really.

I don't know much about lime mate, but I briefly checked them out earlier when I saw your last post. Apparently, the small leaf one's truely native (since last ice age), and whilst they don't flower and seed readily here (they need a lot of sun at a certain time to do so), they make up for it by limbs/branches taking root very easily. Lots of medical uses for the trees, and obviously, a classical carving wood
Are you using self-seeding comfrey btw ?