New Bushcraft/Firearms Poll
- Thread starter Geoff Guy
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Hey Guest, Early bird pricing on the Summer Moot (29th July - 10th August) available until April 6th, we'd love you to come. PLEASE CLICK HERE to early bird price and get more information.
Was given a single shot 12ga Winchester 37A which was one of my uncles first guns for a wedding gift. Long story behind the gift. Anyway, my father has been holding it for me, and I'm doing my Firearms Safety Course and Hunters Ed course this coming weekend! Getting excited to finally try my hand at some rabbit hunting without dogs. Unfortunately all other game seasons will be closed by the time I actually get my PAL. Next year going to try my hand at Ptarmigan and Grouse as well. Eventually have to apply for a moose license!
That's excellent Max - a new tool with some family history and some appropriate training to go with it - sounds great 
Another report says that he has prior convictions a firearms offence amongst others. Not to mention the keeping it for 4 days.
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Well I don't want to get bogged down on that one story, but given that he was given, exceptionally, 12 months suspended rather than the 5 years 'mandatory' imprisonment the law requires, suggests that the judge did not consider him a dangerous or egregious offender.
The mandatory sentencing for a 'strict liability offence' (ie no defence under the law) has the potential to produce some grotesque outcomes. For example, a person who knocked down a bank robber and took his revolver off him would certainly (without the defence of 'necessity' or 'reasonableness') be guilty of unlawful possession of a prohibited weapon, and would in theory at least be subject to 5 years in chokey.
We seem however to have wandered off the point a bit, I apologise for my part in it.
That is absolutely psychotic. In Texas what happens is that the cops run a check to see if the weapon has been reported lost or stolen. If not, then you have a free gun. If it is, they keep the gun to return it to it's rightful owner, they ask where and how you found it, they thank you, and you go on your merry way.
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Actually no. They take possession of the gun in any case and if no lawful owner claims it, it goes to auction to a dealer with other such property. If the finder passes the same background check as anybody else, he may buy it from whatever dealer wins the auction.
In this case it would be similar to a new full auto that isn't covered under the grandfathering rules. Surely those are destroyed?
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Do you mean the sawed off one in the link?
If so, often you're right, they are destroyed here as simply being an illegal weapon. That can vary by location though; technically the law concerning minimum barrel length applies only to private weapons and not to police or military ones. This makes a difference because confiscated weapons become the property of the state (in most states) and therefore the short barreled ones can be issued to police if the dept armorer determines they're safe (Highly unlikely though after one has been shortened by an amateur) In any case, even though the police can shotguns with weapons shorter than 18" it usually isn't practical, so yes, most get destroyed.
Another legal exception for a shorter barreled 12 gauge is when one (usually a single shot) is modified to use as a signalling devise (boating flares are 12 gauge) but that's very, very rare since obviously it's difficult to prove that your intention is only for signalling.
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Very few weapons in the UK are actually illegal, these would be stuff like weapons of mass destruction banned under international convention. Most like pistols and other short firearms along side machine guns are just so restricted to make them virtually impossible to legally own as a civilian. A sawn off would fit this category.
Unless you've enough money for the requisite taxes/licensing, it's not really so different here as you'd imagine (except for the handguns) But we've jacked the thread enough.
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You can still possess handguns in the UK, simply they no longer accepts 'sporting use' as a 'good reason to possess'. I used to have a Browning I used as a 'humane dispatcher' for farm animals and trapped foxes. Bizarrely, the police insisted that one of the two magazines was limited to two shots, but were happy for the other to be unrestricted.
One thing I am curious about is what is the most common shotgun gauges everyone over there is using. I get the impression that 12ga and .410 are fairly common.
Here on the Texas coast 12ga is by far the most common, by an order of magnitude more than other gauges. Because waterfowl hunting is huge here, and the Feds made lead shot illegal for waterfowl (environmental reasons), the 20ga has lost a lot of popularity in the last 20+ years due to having to use lighter steel shot. In most places, but not all, you can still use lead shot for upland birds, so the 20ga is still popular for that and for trap shooting. Probably about 1/5th of the 12ga loads on the local Walmart shelves this hunting season are steel shot in 3-1/2" shells. Every year I notice more 3-1/2" shells on the shelf. Those are getting more common as more 3-1/2" chambered shotguns make it into hunter's hands.
Myself, I use 12ga a lot but I also use .410, and I reload for both. The .410 shells are the most expensive to buy but the cheapest to reload.
Here on the Texas coast 12ga is by far the most common, by an order of magnitude more than other gauges. Because waterfowl hunting is huge here, and the Feds made lead shot illegal for waterfowl (environmental reasons), the 20ga has lost a lot of popularity in the last 20+ years due to having to use lighter steel shot. In most places, but not all, you can still use lead shot for upland birds, so the 20ga is still popular for that and for trap shooting. Probably about 1/5th of the 12ga loads on the local Walmart shelves this hunting season are steel shot in 3-1/2" shells. Every year I notice more 3-1/2" shells on the shelf. Those are getting more common as more 3-1/2" chambered shotguns make it into hunter's hands.
Myself, I use 12ga a lot but I also use .410, and I reload for both. The .410 shells are the most expensive to buy but the cheapest to reload.
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12 bore is most common, lots of 20 bore used as "youth and ladies" clay and game guns and increasingly in recent times as men's guns. 410 was seen a young mans gun for a long time but increasingly is used for vermin control and land game by the cognoscenti - partly because is supresses so much better than larger bores. There's still a fair bit of 16 bore and 28 bore about for those that enjoy them too.
12 bore is most commonly found in 2 3/4" but there are a lot of 2 1/2" nitro and black powder guns around and in use. For driven game its all double barrel although over and under is now acceptable(ish) but a gentleman still uses a side by side. 3" semis are popular with wildfowlers and we too are switching to steel and other "non lead" shot (e.g. Bismuth). Very few pumps and semis used for game - some for vermin control though- especially with suppressors.
12 bore is most commonly found in 2 3/4" but there are a lot of 2 1/2" nitro and black powder guns around and in use. For driven game its all double barrel although over and under is now acceptable(ish) but a gentleman still uses a side by side. 3" semis are popular with wildfowlers and we too are switching to steel and other "non lead" shot (e.g. Bismuth). Very few pumps and semis used for game - some for vermin control though- especially with suppressors.
Nearly everyone uses 12s, a few use 20s, usually under the impression (mistaken IMO) that the recoil will be less (throwing the same amount of lead at the same speed down a narrower tube ought surely to increase it?). 16s are pretty much a dead duck, there are a few old ones knocking about, mostly fine guns from back along. It's a struggle to get ammo for 16s.
Super-magnum chambers are also more common as steel becomes more popular.
Super-magnum chambers are also more common as steel becomes more popular.
Yes Red, IIRC you have that very nice, suppressed .410. Something which you guys seem to get a lot easier than us is a sound suppressor. For us it's a $200 tax, a background check, and a one year wait on the Federal paperwork, provided that your state even allows it. Only recently have they even been made legal for hunting in only a few states, like Texas.
At the local Walmart, a good wind sock on what the locals shoot, I actually found small amounts of 10ga, some .410, some 28 gauge. The lead shot ban kept the 10ga alive. Here too, the 16ga is an obsolete cartridge but there are a number of old guns floating around chambered for it, so the ammo and components can be had if one looks. They had only a bit more 20ga, but the vast majority of everything was 12ga.
The 28ga was obscure here but it was resurrected by trap shooters and upland bird hunters. It's still a rare gauge when you try and buy it, which is too bad because it's a pleasure to shoot.
Most of the shotguns I've seen in use hunting here are pumps and semis. The issue for selecting a hunting shotgun here is typically more a matter of cost, not firepower, because when you are hunting you have to drop in a magazine plug so it can hold no more than 2 rounds. A double barrel over here, either side by side or over under, costs a lot more than a pump. For example, you can get a Mossberg Maverick 88 12ga pump that has a 28" barrel with a vent rib that can use interchangeable chokes for about $190 new, which about £127. That is less than half the cost of a not too fancy Brazilian made side by side or a basic model of a Turkish made over-under, and a fraction of the cost of something nicer.
However, when you see a double barrel break action over here, it's usually an over-under more often than not. You don't see a lot of side by sides in use too much. What I have noticed is that when you see a double barrel here it's typically someone who's plunked down some serious cash on something nice, like a Ruger, a Beretta, a Browning, etc.
A fair number of people around here also still hunt with single shot break actions, like the H&R Topper. My main 12ga is a Mossberg pump, but the .410 I use a lot is an ancient Winchester model 37 single shot break action.
The H&R Topper/Pardner 12ga single shot has gained something of cult following amongst many bushcrafter types over here. Those single shots are not that expensive, lots are available used, they are rugged, reliable, and versatile. Check out the Pathfinder School on YouTube and they have done a lot with merging the H&R single shot into bushcraft.
At the local Walmart, a good wind sock on what the locals shoot, I actually found small amounts of 10ga, some .410, some 28 gauge. The lead shot ban kept the 10ga alive. Here too, the 16ga is an obsolete cartridge but there are a number of old guns floating around chambered for it, so the ammo and components can be had if one looks. They had only a bit more 20ga, but the vast majority of everything was 12ga.
The 28ga was obscure here but it was resurrected by trap shooters and upland bird hunters. It's still a rare gauge when you try and buy it, which is too bad because it's a pleasure to shoot.
Most of the shotguns I've seen in use hunting here are pumps and semis. The issue for selecting a hunting shotgun here is typically more a matter of cost, not firepower, because when you are hunting you have to drop in a magazine plug so it can hold no more than 2 rounds. A double barrel over here, either side by side or over under, costs a lot more than a pump. For example, you can get a Mossberg Maverick 88 12ga pump that has a 28" barrel with a vent rib that can use interchangeable chokes for about $190 new, which about £127. That is less than half the cost of a not too fancy Brazilian made side by side or a basic model of a Turkish made over-under, and a fraction of the cost of something nicer.
However, when you see a double barrel break action over here, it's usually an over-under more often than not. You don't see a lot of side by sides in use too much. What I have noticed is that when you see a double barrel here it's typically someone who's plunked down some serious cash on something nice, like a Ruger, a Beretta, a Browning, etc.
A fair number of people around here also still hunt with single shot break actions, like the H&R Topper. My main 12ga is a Mossberg pump, but the .410 I use a lot is an ancient Winchester model 37 single shot break action.
The H&R Topper/Pardner 12ga single shot has gained something of cult following amongst many bushcrafter types over here. Those single shots are not that expensive, lots are available used, they are rugged, reliable, and versatile. Check out the Pathfinder School on YouTube and they have done a lot with merging the H&R single shot into bushcraft.
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Not much wrong with a single shot shotgun - plenty around here used as what we call "tractor guns" - the Baikal single shots are very popular, the old Belgian folding 410s are common around here and converted "rook rifles" are abundant too.
Quite a few shoots in the UK will send you home if you turn up with a pump or semi. All part of the British safety culture - when the gun's 'broken' it is beyond all doubt safe, but you can't tell if a semi/pump has a round chambered.
Plus there's still a bit of snobbery going on (especially from people with un-posh backgrounds, for whom it seems to mean more than it does to most aristos), 'Good Lord, that fellow turned up with of all things an Over-and-Under and wearing some sort of Army jacket. Not Our Sort at all'.
Plus there's still a bit of snobbery going on (especially from people with un-posh backgrounds, for whom it seems to mean more than it does to most aristos), 'Good Lord, that fellow turned up with of all things an Over-and-Under and wearing some sort of Army jacket. Not Our Sort at all'.
I've seen those folding Belgian .410's and they are neat. Combo guns, rifle barrel plus shotgun barrel, have a cult status with prepper types, but I have found them to often be neither fish nor fowl in what they excel at. The Baikal guns are interesting, but the availability of Russian made firearms here comes and goes in spurts. Most of the single shots not made by H&R are Brazilian made Rossi.
Yes, there is range snobbery here too. Usually it's a nice shooting jacket combined with some very expensive over-under while they look down on those who have some $200 pump that rattles a bit and has scratches on it from hard use and riding around in a tuck or jeep a lot. For some here, a very expensive over-under made in the USA or Western Europe is something of a yuppie status symbol.
In the 'Priced Completely Out Of My League' category are English made, side by side double barrels. In the USA those are the turf of wealthy collectors and rich sportsmen with country estates in the east. Those are a genuine status symbol. You almost never see one at a range because the only people that can afford them have their own skeet range and private hunting grounds. It's an odd curiosity about the American rich. The longer they have had money, and the more of it they have, the more they want to look and act like the British rich.
Yes, there is range snobbery here too. Usually it's a nice shooting jacket combined with some very expensive over-under while they look down on those who have some $200 pump that rattles a bit and has scratches on it from hard use and riding around in a tuck or jeep a lot. For some here, a very expensive over-under made in the USA or Western Europe is something of a yuppie status symbol.
In the 'Priced Completely Out Of My League' category are English made, side by side double barrels. In the USA those are the turf of wealthy collectors and rich sportsmen with country estates in the east. Those are a genuine status symbol. You almost never see one at a range because the only people that can afford them have their own skeet range and private hunting grounds. It's an odd curiosity about the American rich. The longer they have had money, and the more of it they have, the more they want to look and act like the British rich.
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