looking for Crooked knife info

[FGYT]

Well im fancying having ago at a North american indian crooked knife

any body got any info in specs etc (yeh yeh i know all hand made to no drawings etc )

found this artical

with interesting pictures

was going to try 3mm thick maybe grind it down to 2.5 ish ?? and 20deg single bevel

Oh ia have been looking up Jojos old threads on his

any feed back on hollowing with the bevel on the inside of the curve ?? as spoon knifes usually are beveled on the outside to make it easier to turn

ATB
Duncan

 

[John Fenna]

Not much to say except that in "Crafts of the North American Indians" by Richard C Schneider the drawings are almost identical to the ones you already have.
Tools with a long tradition of a certain design feature tend to have that feature well proven
I for one find sharpening the "inside" bevel of a crooked knife easier than the "outside" bevel of a spoon knife.....

 

[Minotaur]

Not much to say except that in "Crafts of the North American Indians" by Richard C Schneider the drawings are almost identical to the ones you already have.
Tools with a long tradition of a certain design feature tend to have that feature well proven
I for one find sharpening the "inside" bevel of a crooked knife easier than the "outside" bevel of a spoon knife.....

Always wondered what was the difference.

Ok, all you clever metal workers out there. Could you do this to a hacksaw blade?

I know they snap, so I guess you would have to heat them, but would that not damage the heat treatment?

 

[DavidJT]

Not wishing to hijack Duncan, but do you, or anyone know where I could buy a crook knife with this profile? I'm fairly new to carving, and not at all handy at metal work.
However I was impressed with RM making the axe handle in his program last night, how the straight section could be used as a draw knife, as well as the usual carving with the curved section.

 

[Mesquite]

Not wishing to hijack Duncan, but do you, or anyone know where I could buy a crook knife with this profile?

You could always get the blade from Woodlore and handle it yourself. Bit pricey though. I'm sure someone would happily make one a lot cheaper for you.

 

[robin wood]

I've answered Duncan elswhere but will copy here becuase I think it might be interesting info for others.

There are two quite different types of knives used by native Americans. The one you have drawn is the mocotaugan used across North and east coast, often associated with building birch bark canoes. There tend to be home made, often out of old cut throat razors surprisingly often straight bladed (the crooked bit I suspect refers to the ofset handle) There is a supoerb site and downloadable book on them here http://www.mocotauganthebook.com/ or search google "mocotagan" for more info.

The other more interesting knife to me but less well known over here is used by the North West coast people for carving totem poles, masks, bowls etc. These are much more refined knives and the best I have seen but never used one are made by kestrel tools. http://www.rockisland.com/~kestrel/

PS both knives can work with inside or outside bevels by the way but inside is more common.

David, sounds like Duncan is on the case for making some, if you want one today I would suggest Ben Orford.

 

[wildman695]

Always wondered what was the difference.

Ok, all you clever metal workers out there. Could you do this to a hacksaw blade?

I know they snap, so I guess you would have to heat them, but would that not damage the heat treatment?

Any hardened metal , like a hacksaw blade or a file can be softened (annealed) by heating to cherry red then being allowed to cool slowly, it can then be shaped rough ground and bent ro the required shape before hardening and tempering again as required. the finally sharpened and polished. Good luck. Be aware that some hacksaw blades are bi metal with a hard edge and flexible back.

 

[DavidJT]

Thanks Robin

 

[FGYT]

cheers guys

from what i can get out of the Woodlore picture its 3mm stock and a 19deg ish bevel

tho if its 4mm its 26 deg ish

m goinbg to try a bit of 2mm x 10mm i have and a bit of 3mm later when i can cut a bit to width


i assume the internal bevel is good for planeing flat where as an external bevel is better for hollowing Concave curves so the curve on thes would be good at planeing corner rads but long liek a bit of guttering but harder to hollow tight cups out guess the indians used birch bark a lot for vessels etc instead of carving
a bevel on teh back underside of the curved bit might improve hollowing a little ??? as well as the thinning from 15 to 8mm

ATB

Duncan

 

[robin wood]

cheers guys

from what i can get out of the Woodlore picture its 3mm stock and a 19deg ish bevel

tho if its 4mm its 26 deg ish

m goinbg to try a bit of 2mm x 10mm i have and a bit of 3mm later when i can cut a bit to width


i assume the internal bevel is good for planeing flat where as an external bevel is better for hollowing Concave curves so the curve on thes would be good at planeing corner rads but long liek a bit of guttering but harder to hollow tight cups out guess the indians used birch bark a lot for vessels etc instead of carving
a bevel on teh back underside of the curved bit might improve hollowing a little ??? as well as the thinning from 15 to 8mm

ATB

Duncan

I think you have it there. These tools are not in my experience good hollowing tools for say a kuksa, not surprisingly a Scandinavian style hook works well for that. I would be interested to know which tribes in which areas used these, as I said most of the work I have seen done involves little hollowing, as in making the ribs or paddles for a canoe.

It would be very wrong however to say "the indians" didn't do hollowing. There were as many and varied cultures in North America as in Europe and with hugely varying crafts skills. The pacific coast tribes did simply fantastic carving, the Haida, Tlingit, Kwakiutl and coast Salish amongst others.

Stick "Haida bowl" into google image and be prepared to be amazed. This stuff has not been recognised or used as inspiration much in the bushcraft community yet but to me the North West coast craftwork is some of the best in the world.

 

[Peter_t]

i mite try and make one without the hook, surely its best to have a seperate tool for holowing? also i can see it being a major pain in the whatsit to sharpen lol


pete

 

[robin wood]

This link gives good info and looks a really good knife. I am very dubious about both the Svante Djarve one and the pics in the original post. Neither seem to have the angles right.http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/8530/t/Making-a-Crooked-Knife.html

 

[FGYT]

This link gives good info and looks a really good knife. I am very dubious about both the Svante Djarve one and the pics in the original post. Neither seem to have the angles right.http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/8530/t/Making-a-Crooked-Knife.html

good link looks liek one Jojo made a couple of years ago to and its is a lot more angled

i guess the original link i put up maybe how the settlers interpreted the knife as an easy to make trade item

and most dont seem to have the full curve that the SD one on the woodlore site has if that the case its probebly been added to make it into a Do all tool to try and make it a spoon and Kuska carver as well as Canoe and Snowshoe etc RM has used it to demo several so far in his new series

I do know that the long shallow spoon knife i make is a usfull All purpuse carver for spoons etc ie you can use it to do a whole spoon but with a external bevel its not as good for straight planes etc

ATB

Duncan

 

[GreyOne]

Bushcraft USA downloads section has a book by Cameron on the Mocotaugan Knife. It is about 12 MB, might be of interest.

 

[FGYT]

oks heavily relying on Robins link to the paleo forum

heres a profile i want to try in 3mm with a 10mm grind hight giving 17deg bevel might do a secondary bevel at 25ish

blade is angled back by 10deg and will be bent up at the hilt by 12deg allso this is the flat profile to cut the tip will be curved upwards on the front 1/3rd so the 120mm top view will be shorter

ATB

Duncan

 

[Amon81]

and most dont seem to have the full curve that the SD one on the woodlore site has if that the case its probebly been added to make it into a Do all tool to try and make it a spoon and Kuska carver as well as Canoe and Snowshoe etc RM has used it to demo several so far in his new series

I've got one of the crook knifes off Ray's site. I'm in the middle of making the handle but I think its a good shape to make alot of different things, a do all tool seems about right. Spoons and kuksa seem to be possible.

Bit expensive at £55 but I think it should be a good tool to work with, already sharp (I know that as I cut my finger getting it out the bubble-rap).

A couple of quick photos:





I am giving my sef a little challange by making the handle with nothing more than my Enzo Trapper. Making the blade sit right was er "fun".

 

[FGYT]

Cheers Amon81

any chance of a few measurments and a side on picture

looks like it could be 4mm thick

looks a fun carving project

ATB

Duncan

 

[Amon81]

Sure.

Its 16mm wide, the bevel is 8mm. This isn't going to snap any time soon!
Its 120mm long, 45mm of that is in the handle, its about 40mm before the curve starts.
The curve is 34mm in height.
Its pretty much 2mm thick all over, each one will be a little different as they are made for Rays site by a British Blacksmith.

A side view



The Bevel with a bit of residue of the tape that it came with (and still cut me).



A 2p coin to show the curve



Vith my Zippo for a size comparison.

 

[FGYT]

Thanks still looks thicker than 2mm but probably an Hoptical Delusion

heres mine so far since the last post 20 deg bevel

might curve it a bit more we will see

 

[Amon81]

Looking good