Long range elk shot with .243 Win (Warning: Graphic)

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Robson Valley

Full Member
Nov 24, 2014
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Just a reminder that the Geneva Convention sets standards for non-fragmenting bullets for military purposes.
I can buy all sorts of others from Hornady, Speer, Federal and so on. Better long range performances for hunting.

What "seems"(?) to be the conspiracy theory up here is a visible restriction on the availability of primers for reloading.
Does not matter what you have for powder, brass and bullets. You need primers.
 
Jan 13, 2018
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Rural Lincolnshire
Just a reminder that the Geneva Convention sets standards for non-fragmenting bullets for military purposes.
I can buy all sorts of others from Hornady, Speer, Federal and so on. Better long range performances for hunting.

What "seems"(?) to be the conspiracy theory up here is a visible restriction on the availability of primers for reloading.
Does not matter what you have for powder, brass and bullets. You need primers.

I think it was actually the Hague Convention of 1907 (rather than the Geneva Convention).
It was the Hague convention that banned the use of 303 bullets with 'wooden fillers' as the wound caused could be infected by the wooden splinters - the fact the soldiers arm had probably been 'blown-off' didn't seem to be considered. (The MKVI bullet then used paper or aluminium fillers to lighten the 'nose' of the bullet)

LAWS AND CUSTOMS OF WAR ON LAND (HAGUE, IV)

ARTICLE 23

In addition to the prohibitions provided by special· Conventions, it is especially forbidden:
(a) To employ poison or poisoned weapons;
(b) To kill or wound treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army;
(c) To kill or wound an enemy who, having laid down his arms, or having no longer means of defence, has surrendered at discretion;
(d) To declare that no quarter will be given;
(e) To employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering;
 

Robson Valley

Full Member
Nov 24, 2014
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Thank you. I knew that there were some rules of engagement which included the actual construction of rifle bullets.
Maybe it's a political "feel good" but it's there.

I cannot believe that a .50 cal at 3,000 meters needs any sentiment for design. What did the Canadian shoot? 3,700m?
 

Janne

Sent off - Not allowed to play
Feb 10, 2016
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Just over 3500 meters . Amazing.
I wish I could see how they did it. The final calcultions in his head.

Yes, it is to give a Feel Good, humanitarian edge to the people that approve of war.

Pity most antipersonell mines are just designed to take your foot, genitals and shred your bladder. Just so your country has a huge bill to reconstruct and rehabilitate you.
I dead soldiers costs a plastic bag. Cheap.

My switch from a 'hawk' to a 'dove' came after some deep thinking.
No regrets!
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
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The figures quoted are the 'service loads' (unfortunately I cannot post pictures so cannot post the relevant tables from my books and documents)
The proof pressures are a fair bit higher.

SAAMI (US Civilian) 308 Win : Service pressure 62,000psi, Proof pressure 80,600 psi
CIP ("Permanent International Commission for the Proof of Small Arms" - covers Europe, Arabia, Russia etc) 7.62 NATO : Service Pressure 60,200 psi, Proof pressure 72.250 psi

The US Army (typical !!) has its own testing methods and users a system called CUP (or Copper Crusher) there is no direct comparisons but 'roughly' 52,000 CUP is equal to 60,000 psi

US Army requirements 7.62 NATO : Service pressure 50,000 CUP, but for Special 'M118 Ball' service pressure is 52,000 CUP. I have no information regarding US Army proof pressures.
Thanks. Actually though, CUP is the only measurements I've ever seen over here, military or civilian (including SAAMI)
 

santaman2000

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Jan 15, 2011
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Military brass is made to a higher standard and specification that the 'made to a price' Winchester and Remington SAAMI brass.
'Civilian' brass is lighter weight with thinner walls and FLR (full length resizing) and case trimming when reloading (particularly) after using in a 7.62 Chamber results in ever thinner & thinner cases.

Hence the 'dash for the brass' when military 7.62 is used.

The United Nations having started a crusade against international movements of military small arms and ammunition except on a government to government basis. The problem is that 5.56 and 7.62mm are classified as ‘military’ period, no matter that it is a single-shot target rifle and your pride and joy. This is a particular problem for anybody travelling across international boundaries as an early result has been airlines, through their international regulator IATA, accepting these rules and refusing to carry anything so marked or documented, even if on a dual basis as in ‘7.62mm / .308 Winchester’.

You can no longer carry your 7.62 rifle on an aircraft, but you can if it is marked 308 !!!
Actually they swarm to surplus brass and ammo here because it's cheap as chips (maybe it is made to a higher spec but that's not the relevant issue) Fortunately almost nobody FLRs unless they're going to use in a semiautomatic (neck sizing once fired brass produces ammo that was fire formed to the chamber)
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
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.....The UN have now introduced further legislation (to which most countries - including the USA) have signed up to requiring ammunition producers , and firearms manufactures to have a Government licence.
Under the definitions if you reload you are an ammunition manufacturer, and need a Government licence.
If you 'work on guns' - even fitting a new bolt, replacement barrel etc. then you are a firearms manufacturer and require a Government licence.

Whilst this has now been in place for a few years very little news of it has 'escaped'.

Talking with other armourers, collectors and shooters in the USA they said "it'll never happen here", but already the Paperwork for shipping firearms in 7.62 and 5.56 has been introduced.

Update from the US dealer I have been talking to :

"I just printed the approved DSP5 permanent export license issued by the Office of Defense Trade Control, U.S. Dept. of State and there is a proviso that I've never encountered before. Here's your answer to the creeping changes being implemented by the UN of which the USA has now signed on. It states the following:

(FYI: I'm the applicant as a DTC registrant.)

APPLICANT MUST NOTIFY THE END USER IN WRITING THAT THE RSAF ENFIELD L42A1, CAL. 7.62X51 BOLT ACTION RIFLE, SN. AMXXXX, CANNOT BE RESOLD OR TRADED WITHOUT THE PRIOR APPROVAL OF THE US GOVERNMENT. APPLICANT MUST UPLOAD THE NOTIFICATION INTO D-TRADE UNDER THIS LICENSE NUMBER WITHIN 15 DAYS OF ITS APPROVAL.

There you have it. The facts as promised".


I have clarified with him as follows :

If I (in the UK) am in receipt of this 7.62 calibre L42 which has been allowed to be exported from the USA, then if I decide to sell it in a year or two's time to 'John in the next town' then I must apply to the US Government for approval.

I'm in the UK and the US Government tells me if I can sell my rifle !!!!!!!!!!!

You say the UN mandates will not come into effect - dream on !!!
Sorry to hear you're having trouble. There is a misconception about the US signing that agreement though. YES! The previous administration (Barak Obama) did indeed sign it. HOWEVER! Congress has never ratified it. Congressional ratification is a Constitutional requirement before any treaty become binding. Without said ratification it's his signature is worthless and it's as if the treaty doesn't exist. I don't know what to tell you about the US dealer giving you problems?
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
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Thank you. I knew that there were some rules of engagement which included the actual construction of rifle bullets.
Maybe it's a political "feel good" but it's there.

I cannot believe that a .50 cal at 3,000 meters needs any sentiment for design. What did the Canadian shoot? 3,700m?
Ironically the 50 cal is illegal under the ROE regardless of bullet design. Technically it's only supposed to be employed against equipment (planes, ships, motor vehicles, etc) rather than directly against personnel. A rule widely ignored by most countries on all sides.
 

Janne

Sent off - Not allowed to play
Feb 10, 2016
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Source? I have never heard it is against any rules/regs type Geneva Convention to use a .50 against a human target.

Humane, but wasteful. Expensive.

Again, if a such rule exists, it is constructed by a pen chewer that has never had a blister on his heel.

I see no reason why it should be banned. To get a spinning .223 in your belly, or a .50BMG, I choose the .50.

What should be banned worldwde are stupid, self important, agressive politicians. They cause the problems.



That deer would be easier to carry had she used a .50 BMG.
 
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Jan 13, 2018
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Actually they swarm to surplus brass and ammo here because it's cheap as chips (maybe it is made to a higher spec but that's not the relevant issue) Fortunately almost nobody FLRs unless they're going to use in a semiautomatic (neck sizing once fired brass produces ammo that was fire formed to the chamber)

I find that I have to keep the brass separated for each rifle. I find it best to neck-size only and ensure that it only used on the rifle that it was fire formed with.
Neck-sizing alone (without segregation) leads to stiff loading and extraction.

Military rifles appear to have very 'loose' chambers and work to much wider tolerances that SAAMI (commercial) chambers.
 
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Robson Valley

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Nov 24, 2014
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McBride, BC
So shoot up a boat and the Somali pirates are the "by-catch?" Sorry. Having an attack of the "stupids" after lunch. (Coffee only.)

Personally, I think we would all be much better off to hunt down as many muntjac as we can.
I'll buy the charcoal and I've got a killer wet mop with cider vinegar.
 
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Janne

Sent off - Not allowed to play
Feb 10, 2016
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Does Muntjac taste like deer?

I love a good Venison Goulash. Venison here is crazy expensive.
Reindeer goulash is not as tasty, a bit to much ‘goat’, I have better receipes for Rudolf!
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
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Source? I have never heard it is against any rules/regs type Geneva Convention to use a .50 against a human target......
Annual ROE training for over 21 years. I agree with you though; and apparently (judging from how widely it's ifnored) so does most everybody else.

I find that I have to keep the brass separated for each rifle. I find it best to neck-size only and ensure that it only used on the rifle that it was fire formed with.
Neck-sizing alone (without segregation) leads to stiff loading and extraction.

Military rifles appear to have very 'loose' chambers and work to much wider tolerances that SAAMI (commercial) chambers.
Yes on all counts. Sorta. Any benefits in accuracy from the fire forming will only materialize if you keep the loads segregated to the rifles they were formed in. That said, stiffness in loading isn't particularly a problem with bolt actions, pump actions, or single shots anyway and even without gains in accuracy the time saved and extended case life make it worth the trade. Not so much so if you're using a semi auto,or a full auto (not even in a "loose" military gun) or a lever though. Those all still need full length resizing and due to the volume of ammo needed it's best to use progressive loaders.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
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ROE = Rules Of Engagement

.50 caliber BMG was developed in WWI as an anti-aircraft round. Various rounds are also used for armor piercing, concrete bunker piercing, etc. Tracers and incendiary rounds were used to ignite the hydrogen in dirigibles and blimps. The Ma Deuce is the oldest firearm still widely issued more than a century later.
 
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Janne

Sent off - Not allowed to play
Feb 10, 2016
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Grand Cayman, Norway, Sweden
Thanks!
Not aircraft. Protected vehicles. Aircraft are and were virtually impossible to hit. And the US dropped in to the WW1 party at the last hour, where procedures agains aircraft were already established.

I do not think there are any universal ROE apart from Hague and Geneva?

Hunting (= animals) is highly regulated when it comes to caliber, time, which animals and so on.
Is it recommended to shoot this distance, with this round, at this species?
 
Jan 13, 2018
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Thanks!


Hunting (= animals) is highly regulated when it comes to caliber, time, which animals and so on.

The UK Home Office document "Guide on Firearms Licensing Law" page 122-123 specifies calibres / muzzle velocities and "suitable" quarry species for each calibre.

I cannot post attachments so if you want to read it you may wish to find your own copy;

Brief extracts (but I cannot post the data table)

Quarry Shooting
Note that the absence of a calibre in the table below should not preclude it being considered by
the Police. The purpose of this table is as a guide to establish initial “good reason”.
Paragraphs 13.9 and 13.16-13.18 should be read in conjunction with this table.


1 FAC air rifles are not suitable for animals larger than vermin or ground game.

2 .17 Remington and .22 Hornet would be suitable for use against vermin in specific circumstances (also see paragraph
13.19). Foxes may be shot using .22RF but only at short rage,

(3,4,5 & 6 are definitions of game 'categories ):

3 Vermin & Ground Game and other Small Quarry – rat, hare, rabbit, grey squirrel and other similar sized quarry.
4 Medium Quarry – fox, feral cat and other similar sized quarry.
5 Larger Quarry – feral goat, deer, boar, and other similar sized quarry.
6 Dangerous Game – lion, elephant, buffalo, bear etc.
7 But note legal requirements for shooting Roe Deer in Scotland set out in paragraph 13.34.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
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Florida
Thanks!
Not aircraft. Protected vehicles. Aircraft are and were virtually impossible to hit. And the US dropped in to the WW1 party at the last hour, where procedures agains aircraft were already established.

I do not think there are any universal ROE apart from Hague and Geneva?

Hunting (= animals) is highly regulated when it comes to caliber, time, which animals and so on.
Is it recommended to shoot this distance, with this round, at this species?
Yeah we got into WWI late but we began preparing for it years before. Aircraft really aren't that hard to hit and never have been. Especially for the Ma Deuce firing 0ver 1200 RPM with an effective range of 2000 yards at a target flying less than 80 MPH. (figures for the anti aircraft variant and WWI aircraft) No, we didn't even start thing about "protected" vehicles (armor) until after WWI.

You might be right regarding the ROE. In any case, it's widely ignored so it's a moot point anyway

In most western states the minimum legal caliber is the .243 (I believe (yoming lists it as follows) :

"Wyoming statutes authorize the use of a firearm which has a barrel bore diameter of at least twenty-three-hundredths (23/100) of an inch and is chambered to fire a center-fire cartridge not less than two (2) inches in overall length, including a soft or expanding point bullet seated to a normal depth......"


Normal shots are almost always over 300 yards and occassionally out to the range in the video. While .243 is legal and adequate it's not the most popular caliber. Most people choose either a 7mm or one of the 30 calibers.
 

mrostov

Nomad
Jan 2, 2006
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In most western states the minimum legal caliber is the .243

In the USA 43 states allow high velocity centerfires for big game hunting (this includes deer).

The remaining 7 states require the use of shotguns, and some also allow rifles that fire large caliber handgun cartridges. They do this for population density. These states are: Delaware, Illinois, Indiana, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Ohio, and Rhode Island. The state of Iowa can also be put on this list but only for certain counties.

Of the 43 states that allow high velocity rifle cartridges for big game, only 7 do NOT allow .22 centerfires. These 7 states are: Colorado, Connecticut, Iowa, Kansas, Virginia, Washington, and Wyoming. Only 3 on that list are really what we would normally call 'western' states: Colorado, Washington, and Wyoming.

The 36 states that allow .22 centerfires for big game hunting are: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, South Carolina, North Dakota, South Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, West Virginia, and Wisconsin.

Nationwide, most hunting kills of big game are 200 yards or less, often much less, especially for archery season.

A .223 drops a caribou or a deer, or even an elk just fine with one chest cavity hit. The .223 is helped out tremendously by the wide variety of excellent hunting bullets available. Keep the shots within 250 yards or less with a good hunting bullet, exercise good shot placement, and you will be fine.

I like the .243 because it has the energy at 300 yards that the .223 has at the muzzle. However, the .223 offers less expensive ammo and a much longer barrel life.
 
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