Laws around bushcraft in the UK

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C_Claycomb

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Oct 6, 2003
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Hey Harvey Walker,
I realise the general gist of posts might sound negative and discouraging for someone who has just got interested in bushcraft, but there is good advice here. Even the stuff that sounds negative is being offered for good reasons and with good intent.

A few years back Tony, the forum owner, told of having conversations with land owners who told him they were aware of conversations on the forum that encouraged people to stealth camp without permission. Those conversations by a very small minority were going towards shaping a negative view of bushcrafters, and this forum, in the eyes of those land owners. That in turn has shaped our policy when folk ask this sort of question.

Another example, this time about sharps, arose when a member here was on some National Trust land near me. All the parking areas around this area of woodland carry signs listing the National Trust by-laws which are clear that one is not to cut, pick or disturb any plant, or fungi, living or dead, no fires, no hunting or trapping, no camping, etc etc. I know many people ignore these, one sees plenty of evidence of party fires, hacked about hazels, initials carved in trees, and Polish mushroom pickers. Anyway, he was going about his own business, and while I can't recall all the tools he was carrying there was a sheath knife. His problem arose when he was robbed at machete point by a group of young scroats out from a nearby town. They stole his knife and other tools, which he reported, fearing they would be used in a crime and be found with his finger prints. He was very lucky the police gave him just a severe telling off since he did not have permission to be cutting wood there, so his "good reason" for having a knife was not as solid as it could have been. Absolute freak event. I have been visiting those woods for years and never seen anyone scroat-ish. And yet, when one carries knives and tools, freak near-misses with the law do happen.

If the aim is to learn carving skills, there is something to be said for doing so at home, near the first aid kit!

There was another thread about being a beginner just the other week.
https://bushcraftuk.com/community/index.php?threads/begginers-stuck.150106/

If you don't have one, I would recommend getting a good legal carry pocket knife. Swiss Army Knives have great tools, but the blades are soft and I don't think much of them for taking or holding an edge. These on the other hand will cut well.
Queen Cutlery Queen Country Cousin £32.95 from Moonraker knives, the blade will need some elbow grease on 240 grit sand paper, but once sharpened the D2 will hold up really well.
Svord Peasant £17.95 https://www.heinnie.com/svord-peasant-knife
Boker Plus Techtool 1 £27.95 https://www.heinnie.com/boker-plus-tech-tool-1
You can do a lot of things with one of these, and you do not need "a good reason" to carry in public.

Lots of good bushcraft skills though do not require the use of knife, fire, or sticks.
 
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Janne

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If I may......

Considering what is happening all around us, maybe it is time for us to change, maybe we should "lead by example" and move away from knives and other harp edged instruments.
Learning to do without a sharp blade is another skill, which can be fun to learn!
 
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Laurentius

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Aug 13, 2009
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I think in some case there are grey areas. For instance I have been doing what I would call conservation work on a piece of land I do not own, which I regard as having been abandoned in every sense of the word by the actual land owners (The Council), who I have been in contact with and it is very grey as they know I have been there and what I have been doing but they appear to be totally complacent and uninterested by it. At worst my being on the land is a civil offence, but it has not been established after my enquiries whether it is part of a local park or not albeit a less accessible part, after my enquiries various Council departments for various reasons denied responsibility for it. My activities could be considered criminal damage I suppose and if it can be established that the land is private then I am guilty as charged m'lud for going on the land with medieval polearms.

The actual landowners stewardship and protection of the land from fly tipping has been reprehensible, and I have at my own expense planted many trees there, notwithstanding cleared as much rubbish off as I could (it has been used as a general tip for generations by the look of what I find there). Generally speaking the authorities would rather not be bothered by it, and the councillors turn a blind eye to it.

It is pretty much a case of "I have told you what I am doing" but "We would prefer it if we did not know"
 

Fadcode

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Feb 13, 2016
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If I may......

Considering what is happening all around us, maybe it is time for us to change, maybe we should "lead by example" and move away from knives and other harp edged instruments.
Learning to do without a sharp blade is another skill, which can be fun to learn!
well let's hope the law makers don't read this,they will think the new laws on knives have worked,if we say we are giving them up, maybe they will ban tents next and get rid of all of us
 
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Janne

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They will say the new laws have worked only if knife / bladed implement crime goes down, not if some bushcrafters give them up.

The new law is not to ban knives, but to prevent youth getting them.

All across Europe our knife customs have changed due to law changes.
Once most guys had a knife in the pocket, many hanging from the belt.
Every boy used to have, and use, a knife, from very early age, today parents are freaked out of the thought that their 16 year old would buy one.

Changing times, hopefully the pendulum will swing back in the future!
 

Billy-o

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Apr 19, 2018
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boo ... :lol:

A site like this is absolutely ideal for promoting the sensible and sane use of outdoor cutlery. We are far too ready to surrender what few rights and liberties we have for fear of offence or in response to clickbait scare stories fostered by those sections of the press and politicians who opt to stir a bit of fear so that they can advance their own interests.

I'd think that BCUK has a sort of moral responsibility to act as an antidote to this through a persistent, peaceable and reasonable insistence that knives have an ordinary place in an ordinary person's life. Where else will that happen?

I wouldn't mind hearing some substantiation of that story of the roving woodland machete rascals :lol::) Weren't wearing Lincoln Green were they?
 
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Fadcode

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I am not sure if abolition of anything has worked, if we look back at history, alcohol abolition in the states did not stop people drinking it just made criminals a lot of money selling bootleg booze, banning guns in the wild west, did not stop people being killed, it just made robbing banks and trains easier to do.
I do understand the need for action to be taken to reduce the horrific stabbings that are occurring, but banning knives is not the answer, maybe stop and search being stopped, almost banned by Mrs May when she was Home Secretary has not helped the situation.

For those who may think we do not need to carry or use knives, maybe they should try to do without a knife in their everyday life at home to realise how useful a knife is, I myself would not dream of going out for a few days camping without a knife, even though i may only use it once or twice, maybe to whittle a staff make a tent peg, etc, but I know its there if I need it, there are many things in my pack I never want to use, my first aid kit, my raincoat,my compass, but to me these items are essential part of my kit to ensure my wellbeing and safety, just as a knife is.

If we look as though we are willing to give up things, then it will never end, a few years ago, they(the Gov,t) intended selling off all of our forests to private companies, it was only when people started fighting this that it was dropped, there was a movement to stop ramblers walking up Mt Snowdon because the National trust said they were spoiling it, and again it was only when people responded was this dropped,

Regarding fire lighting, it is probably illegal to light a fire anywhere in England, but it is still essential( in my opinion) to have the skill to light one safely I would rather be taken to court for lighting a fire than dying of hypothermia.

I do think that as interested parties we should be promoting Bushcraft in all its facets, rather than succumbing to the raves of Politicians who basically have let us down through their decisions and austerity measures, which have allowed youth crime to increase out of control.

Ask yourself this if it was possible to remove all knives from society would this reduce crime no, it would reduce knife crime though, but the killings would go on, just under another name, we would have people stabbed with screwdrivers, knitting needles, bike spokes, etc, etc,
I am quite sure that there is an underground supply of knives for those who want them for criminal intent, and I am certain that these people will not be buying them from the likes of Amazon and having to sign for them,and therefore be traceable to the authorities,, so the only people likely to be affected are the likes of us.
But until the Gov,t get their act together and treat the root causes of youth unrest, then the killings and maimings will go on.
 
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Jan 13, 2018
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I am quite sure that there is an underground supply of knives for those who want them for criminal intent, and I am certain that these people will not be buying them from the likes of Amazon and having to sign for them,and therefore be traceable to the authorities,, so the only people likely to be affected are the likes of us.
.

A well know saying :

"if we outlaw knives, only criminals will have knives."
 

Janne

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Fadcote: Guns were not banned in Wild West...

Guns are not banned in any state in US, in fact only UK and China have a handgun ban.....

What are the laws in UK about making a fire? That info would be quite useful for the Op..

I assume as you can not even step on somebodys land, you are of course not allowed to camp, make a fire, anything.

But if you have permission from the land owner, I assume it is OK unless the State/Council issues a temporary ban?

Many private lands are crossed by public bridleways, drovers ways and footpaths ( = free public access) - can you camp on those?
 

C_Claycomb

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I didn't intend that we go down the path of knife law again. Sorry if I contributed to that!

Lets not do what we did the last time when a youngster asked about carrying a knife and gun to cross a road! If the OP doesn't ask any more questions, lets agree that we won't start shouting from our soap boxes again, hey? :) Last time we did that, we never saw the poor chap again.

Janne,
Your post puzzles me. There have been quite a lot of posts in this thread that answer the questions about the law regarding fires and collecting or cutting wood. Do you mean that no one has posted direct excerpts from the UK government legislation? That is rather a high standard to hold folk to when the relevant laws are spread across multiple authorities, both criminal and civil.

This has some info:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11584156
and this
https://naturenet.net/blogs/2009/02/08/is-there-a-legal-right-to-collect-firewood/

A public right of way is just a path that crosses the private land, you do not have the right to wander off the path, nor do you have the right to set up camp upon the path.
 

Fadcode

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Fadcote: Guns were not banned in Wild West..
.

Guns are not banned in any state in US, in fact only UK and China have a handgun ban.....

What are the laws in UK about making a fire? That info would be quite useful for the Op..

I assume as you can not even step on somebodys land, you are of course not allowed to camp, make a fire, anything.

But if you have permission from the land owner, I assume it is OK unless the State/Council issues a temporary ban?

Many private lands are crossed by public bridleways, drovers ways and footpaths ( = free public access) - can you camp on those?


Ref: the banning of guns in the Wild West, a lot of Town Marshalls actually banned the wearing of guns in the towns, because of gun fights, shootings,they had to be handed in before entry etc, and as far as I know no-one complained about their rights under the constitution to bear arms...................strange really
 

Janne

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Can be true, but maybe not. Lots of myths about that era.
For example, the Colt M73 (SSA) cost a couple of weeks wage for a cattle hand. On top of that, handguns were not allowed while driving the cows, as those semi wild critters would get into an uncontrollable stampede.

not many gunfights are recorded in the "cowboy era" , not as Hollywood likes to paint it.
The era of driving cows was from the mid 1860's to around 1890. Finished when the railways were built, and/or land was enclosed with barbed wire.
 

Janne

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C.Claycomb, yes, law as it is written.

Law as we interpret it between us is not useful for the OP. (Interesting that you can not overnight/sleep beside a footpath, bridleway or any other 'public right of way'. )

I am sure UK has clear legislation.
Have the councils right/ do they issue fire bans, including BBQ use?

A 'Sticky" thread written by somebody that knows the laws and regulations in England, Scotland and the other territories would be useful for many.

I can contribute by writing down exactly what you can and can not do in Sweden and Norway, as many of you go there and do not know the exact laws and regulations!
 
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Nomad64

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Nov 21, 2015
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I have been interested in bushcraft for a few months now, before I go out and get started I just wanted to know the laws around bushcraft. Where I can practice, do I need permission for certain tools, fires, can I practice in public woodlands if I only use material that has already fallen? I know these questions sound really basic but I would appreciate any helps, thanks!

Harvey.

Welcome to the forum. If you are (still!) interested in getting started in bushcraft, I can thoroughly recommend getting along to the North Wood meet organised by Woodspirits (see link below);

https://bushcraftuk.com/community/index.php?threads/north-wood-meet-august-24-26-2018.150041/

A bit of a hike down from West Yorkshire to the West Midlands but it would be worth it as they are a friendly and knowledgable bunch of lads (and the odd lass), who although they are not prolific posters on this forum, do regularly participate in UK bushcraft activities in a stunning patch of ancient woodland.

You will be able to see a range of different sleeping set ups (tents, tarps, hammocks etc.), get advice on axes, knives etc and no one will laugh at you if you turn up with a £20 festival tent and sleeping bag set or are not wearing this season’s Fjallraven range. Usually plenty of kit for sale at the carboot.

Good luck.
 
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Billy-o

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C.Claycomb, yes, law as it is written.

Janne, get researching and get writing, man. :) A draft document of UK law would be a welcome effort on your part and a great contribution to the site. It sounds like you are well-situated to have a clear sense of the scope, detail and exhaustiveness of what's required. It'd need double, triple checking by others as an authoritative statement, obviously.

To make it worthwhile, you'd need to account for and distinguish between law, lore and generally accepted custom.

Most, if not all, of what the OP needs to know is here both explicitly and in the links, as well as, crucially, in between the lines.

Let me put it like this: One of the differences in sensibility I have noticed over time between the UK and other places (working in universities mainly) is that in the UK you get on with things, you invent, develop and innovate in various ways. When you run into problems or there is a conflict with someone, you go back to the regulations of the institution and start the conversation again, maybe even write some new regulations that clarify and muddy things in an appropriately useful manner. In other places, people start from and expect to adhere to the law, with what you can and cannot do. Drives me nuts I have to say, but I have learned to live with it.

Enumerated rights are a bad idea. One should assume one's liberty and work from there towards a sense of common equality.
 
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Billy-o

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OT: Here's something to read about gun control and the USA

http://time.com/5169210/us-gun-control-laws-history-timeline/

Gun ownership in the US is, as we know, a constitutional matter. But, because of this seeming immovability, on occasion the federal government has attempted to make it either very difficult or prohibitively expensive to legally own guns. That is aside from any municipal or state legistation; which of course vary wildly. Also, the owner/proprietor of anywhere is at liberty to deny access or service to anyone carrying a gun, simply by posting a sign. However, implementing that (by legal search, metal detector, scan etc) is difficult. Also you'll possibly have the gun lobby camped outside your shop for a while. Other difficulties arise in implementing this from concealed carry regulations (which since 2015 is now legal in all sates), the effectiveness and acceptable wording of signs vary by state and municipality, also it is difficult to enforce legally unless any offence committed fits the wording of the signage exactly, and the sign is the right size, in the right place etc. More, some states recognise other states concealed carry laws, some states don't.

Of course, it being Trumptime, things are even more complex now. A hilarious situation has emerged so that, in the light of the present administrations decision to accept and then not accept the idea of Cody Wilson's 3D printable gun, "Politicians, meanwhile, are working to ban printable guns by city and state." NRA no like plastic guns?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jul/31/3d-guns-trump-nra-blueprints-tweet-confusion
 
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Janne

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I will make a separate thread about the Swedish laws, regulations.
I think I know those well, but I still need to double check so I do not give out wrong info..

(And will write down customs/ customary interpretation.)

Can be useful for you planning to visit Sweden.

I do it if anybody here is interested.
 
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C_Claycomb

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National Trust
https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/documents/the-national-trust-byelaws-1965.pdf

"Soil and Vegetation
2. (a) No unauthorised person shall dig, cut or take turf, sods, gravel, sand, clay or any other substance on or from Trust Property.
(b) No unauthorised person shall dig up or remove, cut, fell, pluck or injure any flowers, plants, fungi, moss, ferns, shrubs, trees or other vegetation growing on Trust Property or remove any seeds thereof or injure any grass or climb any tree.
(c) No unauthorised person shall knowingly bring and leave on or in or knowingly permit to be brought onto and left on or in Trust Property any form of living vegetation in such circumstances that the same would be likely to reproduce or propagate itself.

Fire
3. (a) No unauthorised person shall on Trust Property light any fire or discharge any fire-work.
(b) No person shall on Trust Property place, throw or let fall any lighted match, cigarette or any inflammable gas, spirit, substance or thing, or any bottle or broken glass so as to cause or be likely to cause damage by fire to Trust Property or to any object or vegetation thereon.

Camping
13. No unauthorised person shall pitch, erect, or permit to remain on Trust Property any tent, booth, windbreak, pole, clothes-line, building, shed, post, fence, railing or other erection or obstruction whatsoever.

Penalties for Infringement of Byelaws
26. Every person who shall offend against any, of the foregoing Byelaws shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £20 and in the case of a continuing offence to a further fine not exceeding £2 for each day during which the offence continues, or such other maximum as may be specified from time to time by any Act of Parliament enacted after the date hereof.

Fairly comprehensively restrictive, but the penalty above is hardly terrifying.

Forestry Commission
https://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/fce-fc-byelaws.pdf/$FILE/fce-fc-byelaws.pdf

Acts Prohibited on the Lands of the Commissioners
5. No person shall in or on the lands of the Commissioners:-

i. enter any area on or near which there is displayed by the Commissioners a notice prohibiting entry thereon;
ii. ...
iii. ...
iv. light any fire or stove or leave any lighted match, tobacco, cigar or cigarette;
v. remove or damage any building, wall, gate, stile, fence, railing, post, chain, seat, drain, pipe-line, notice-board, receptacle for rubbish or any other thing belonging to the Commissioners;
vi....
vii. dig up, remove, cut or injure any tree, shrub or plant, whether living or not, or remove the seeds therefrom, or dig up or remove any soil, turf, leaf mould, moss, peat, gravel, slag, sands or minerals of any kind;



Open Spaces Society - By Laws
http://www.oss.org.uk/wp-content/up...village-greens-and-open-spaces-March-2014.pdf
 
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