Hybrid cars - expensive to maintain?

[Janne]

So we had a look on the hybrid, and a drive.
Very, very nice.
But I had some problems getting out of it. The shape of the seat, etc, made it very, very difficult.
( I have a damaged lower spine and shot knee)

So no buy.

 

[Paul_B]

If that problem wasn't there... Would you consider it?

Well we went to look at a company down the motorway a bit that sells Japanese imports. They also convert the vans. Loads of interesting vehicles including mustangs imported from Japan. The Buddhist hearse was something else I must admit. Google them and you will see what I mean.

Elgrand, granvia and bongos converted in many ways. Side it rear conversions. High top Granvia with the rest being pop tops. Nice jobs but we just get the feeling buying an unconverted van would suit us better right now. Local dealer looks even better bet right now. Toyota Noah looks a neat vehicle but a bit small. There's a high roof delica coming. Might suit if I fit in.

Gone off the hybrid idea.

 

[Janne]

To be frank - not sure
I would not in Europe where I would do a lot of driving, but here I could run it on Electric with the occasional use of the petrol engine.
I could have bought it for the standard price minus the deposit the other chap put down. So a good deal!

My main car is a MB C300 with an AMG tuned engine, some kind of special order from the first owner ( was in Canada) year 2011.
Bought it cheap in Miami 6 years ago as the owner had moved from Canada but the Norte Americanos did not allow it to be registered.
Not US spec engine or something. Car built in Germany, not US.

Got it for scrap value basically.

I have just spent money on new disks, brake pads, new stickshift assembly, new paint of roof strips, and a new s/s exhaust ( two systems, one for each side) from Italy.
Cheaper that the silver painted mild steel dystem MB sells.

Still, a sizeable cost for it all I would not get back if I sold the car.

I was pretty twitchy today, but wife and son calmed me down. I am grateful for that.

The Japanese imports you mention are all popular here. Taxi cars, mini busses. Seem to be of excellent quality. The old ones look like something from Scrapheap Challenge, but they run!

That is a sign of good quality, if you see lots of crappy, ancient cars of the same brand and model.

 

[gonzo_the_great]

Long ago, I was chatting to some guys (Think they were Portsmouth council tech dept) who had brought an early electric peugeot van. This was in the days of lead-acid battery tech.
They mentioned that early on, there was a recall, to have engine noise generators fitted. After a number of incidents where pedestrians just stepped out in front of them.
The other one I saw, was a Hampshire police dog van.

I'm still of the opinion that, electric cars are currently a niche market of people who are only going to own it for a couple of yeras. Or where it's being funded by someone else (company car).
The reliability and cost of the batteries is going to be a significant factor, untill there is some form of standardisation of battery packs, and when they can be easilly changed out by your local garage.
I did a quick poll of cars on the road a few days ago, and over half were 10yrs or older. So electric cars need to be able to compete with this type of motoring, to get any traction. And that means cars where batteries are maintainable, and 3rd party packs appear on the market at good prices.

There is also the issue of electricity generation capacity and the need to upgrade the national grid (and local distribution) to cope with the demand. But that's a different thread.

 

[Janne]

I read somewhere recently that UK has one of the newest car populations in EU, 7 years or so.

My thinking ( might be wrong) about a used hybrid or electric is, if the average ‘efficient battery’ span is ( for example) 9 years, then when the vehicle is 8 years old it is virtually worthless and unsaleable..
Even if you buy the car new or almost new, if you want to keep it and run it into the ground, when it is getting old, but still has mechanically years and years left, you need to spend a shed load of money to trplace a battery pack that will outlast the rest.

Maybe the term ‘running it into ground’ will mean ‘using it until the battery pack becomes unusable, then scrapping the vehicle’?

 

[Chainsaw]

Interesting question, not much data on it that I can find. There is a wee article here which suggests it is rare but I think they are talking more about faulty batt packs than old and worn... I am at my dealer on Friday, I'll ask him.

 

[gonzo_the_great]

I was thinking more of fully electric cars, in my posting. I should read titles more carefully !

But hybrids will suffer the same issue with pack standardisation.
The engine/mechanical side I'd like to think will last as long as standard cars. But they will be full of specialist bits to support the hybryd side, and the risk is that these may become difficult to source as spares.

I've suffered this with a car as universal as a Land Rover. My 96/97 discovery was one of the few fitted with an electronic diesle pump. And one of the ECU sensors died, and supplies of spares dried up a decade ago.
So if that car can be caught outwith spares availability, I wonder what the current early hybrid owners may face. As you say, a short lifespan.

When I first started driving, a 10yr old car was pretty much scrap on wheels. Now, they often look as good as the day they were made. So will we be going backwards?

 

[Paul_B]

A lot of electric cars come on a deal where the battery change / maintenance is included I believe. Kind of like phone costs paid over the length of the contract.

I think it's like pcp type of lease but I've never been interested enough to look it up

 

[Chainsaw]

No question, car dealers can only exist on new car sales everything else is just annoying noise to them. You will seldom see a car over maybe 3 years on a main dealers forecourt and don't get me started on the conflict of interest that is PCPs.....!! It's in a dealers interest to get you to buy a new car every 2 or 3 years, same with disposable washing machines, fridges etc....

Never bought brand new car in my life and never intend to, there is no point in it but am in the very lucky position to own a nice hybrid which I can afford to replace. Once that position changes due to losing my job, health or youth then it's going and I'll be back to a small turbo petrol. Hopefully by the time that happens I can dump car ownership altogether and just call a self driving electric car form the central depot on my phone app and get it to drop me where I want to go then call it to pick me up later...

Paul, you get at least 5 years warranty on the batt packs anyways, well inside the terms of a PCP so not really worth anything

 

[Paul_B]

I don't know if it's a pcp or what but I know at least Nissan do some rental scheme that gives you new batteries after the required number of years. I'm sure the other big players do similar. No doubt you're just paying for it in the deal but it apparently makes the electric car a much better deal. Comparable to petrol cars I think I read.

Whatever the situation it's clear that no ICE cars on the road is coming. Some countries have ordained no ice cars by 2030, others later.

 

[gonzo_the_great]

I assume that is no new manufacture?
As there are still going to be lots of ICE on the roads for a very long time after that. And the fuel companies are very big entities, which huge tax implications.
I couldn't see any government being able to disengage with fuel duty revenues in 10yrs

 

[Paul_B]

UK gov days 2040, others in Europe 2030. Car manufacturers are putting their stated aim for no new ICE vehicles sooner than UK gov target.

This leaves just hybrid and electric cars.

 

[Janne]

I hope you do not believe in that.......
Every time I hear politicos talking dates I hear Santa Claus calling his reindeers....

Ice cars will be with us for a long, looong time.

 

[Paul_B]

JLR hybrid and electric only by 2030. Pretty much every big manufacturer has given a similar date for this change. Some a bit earlier others a bit later but all well before the UK government date of 2040. I believe Germany is 2030 and other nations similar, UK is out of step with the main nations I believe.

I'm afraid there will be ice cars around for a long time after that but it is this sort of timescale that it all starts from. You'll always get ice classic cars, unless the politicians force people to put electric system in them and play an engine soundtrack instead!!!

 

[Janne]

OMG what a future we petrolheads have.......

The inclusion of electronics in cars have made the hobby very difficult for computer challenged dudes like me!

I hope they construct a new battery tech, as the current tech contain Cadmium, which I believe is not the nicest element to spread around.
Us humans are not the species with the best record of kepping our environment clean.
The current system with authorised dealership battery swap ( and recycling) I am sure works beatifully, buy once ’replica’ batteries can be bought Gods know where the broken ones will end up!

 

[Paul_B]

The only solution is to change behaviour. Less or no car use. Even worse for petrolheads!

I can see you'll one day only be allowed to run petrol cars on rollers in lab like conditions where the pollution is treated. Kind of like a museum crossed with a laboratory fume cabinet. I'm hoping I don't live that long (I'm mid 40s so might not live to see all ice taken out).

Still it seems you were thinking about a hybrid Janne. Is that not helping the death of ice come sooner?

BTW I'm no petrolhead but at school the sound of a deputy head 's Healey 3000 start up was something special. Britain did some amazing cars back then no matter what anyone says. If you've heard one of those cars you'll know what I mean. We could hear it anywhere in the school premises if outside. He always revved it on starting the show off.

British racing green with wire wheels the whole lot. Immaculate renovation and he used it as his day to day runaround car. Respect for that. Others have such cars in garages under tarp with runs out on dry days only.

 

[Chainsaw]

I hope they construct a new battery tech, as the current tech contain Cadmium, which I believe is not the nicest element to spread around.
Us humans are not the species with the best record of kepping our environment clean.

Mine is NiMH, not NiCd and it's a 2015, not sure what other marques are using, either way battery disposal/recycling will be an issue

 

[Paul_B]

How far off getting fuel cell tech sorted?

 

[Chainsaw]

Honda have had one for sale in SoCal for some time now but issue is refuelling infrastructure for Hydrogen, generation cost/efficiency and physical distribution. The cars are certainly viable but yet again it comes down to how quickly and easily the manufacturers can maximize profit and minimize cost. Electric/Hybrid are a better option for them for an ICE replacement.

My lad was working with a research team in Glasgow University on different electrolytes for batteries (garnet based I think...) Potential for huge power to weight ratio improvements (cars) and happily can't burst into flames! (phones) He's hoping to do a PhD down in Sheffield if he gets his grades and Jaguar were interested in sponsoring. I think electric is where we're headed even if it's not the best solution (any one old enough to remember Betamax/VHS

 

[Janne]

Mine is NiMH, not NiCd and it's a 2015, not sure what other marques are using, either way battery disposal/recycling will be an issue

Just shows how far behind I am in technology.

But it was something with those batteries that was not good for the environment longterm.

One day we will be able to seqvester Carbon and Hydrogen from the atmosphere and make fuel.